I'm not just pro-choice. I'm pro-abortion providers and pro-abortion services.

[cali]

Abortion is a medical procedure. I support it being safe, legal and widely available so that women can exercise their constitutional rights to avail themselves of it if they need or want to.


Abortion is not a dirty word or a dirty deed, unless it's forced upon a woman or done in a reckless manner that threatens the health and welfare of a woman.

So yeah, I'm pro-abortion.

[VelmaD]

1. ditto

I'm not only pro-abortion, I'm sick and tired of hearing how "everyone" wants to reduce the number of abortions. I don't think that should be the goal. Yes, I support better access to contraception. Yes, it would be wonderful if we could end rape. But there should be exactly as many abortions as women want/need. No more and no less.

[Bettie]

4. There should be as many abortions and women need

But, I'd like to see the need for them reduced by widely available free contraception and comprehensive sex education.

[katandmoon]

2. I'm pro-abortion too. And I don't care if women use them for birth control, either.

I don't care if a woman has one abortion or ten abortions. Her body, her choice.

[Shell Beau]

136. Using abortion as a form of birth control is stupid.

Just stupid. Use a freaking condom for birth control. And I am pro-choice. But that is just stupid.

[sutz12]

153. Bullshit...many abortions are because contraception failed...

The reason for an abortion is nobody's business but the woman's.

[Shell Beau]

156. That is one thing. But using abortion as your only means of

birth control is bull shit.

[uppityperson]

167. It gets expensive and is not comfortable either

Having known only 1 person who used abortion for birth control in all my yrs. She used it for 1 yr while living on the street and making herself a place to live and eat by prostituting herself to men who wouldn't wear a condom.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

161. It is idiotic

Abortions can be dangerous, go on the pill or use a condom. If someone wants to have an abortion go for it. But to say it is preferred birth control and no different that a condom is pathetic.

[katandmoon]

187. The point is, if that what a woman chooses to do, it is her business.

If abortion is a legal procedure, than it's a legal procedure. Period.

[Shell Beau]

194. So don't have an opinion God forbid.

[EndersDame]

166. stupid yes but would ya really want those people raising a kid

[Shell Beau]

171. Condoms aren't that damn expensive. If it busts, ok, do what you need to,

but don't use abortion strictly for birth control. That is fucked up.

That just makes no sense to me.

[katandmoon]

186. And somebody using abortion for birth control is your business, how, exactly?

[Shell Beau]

193. I don't care if it is my business or not. I can still state my opinion on it.

Kinda like you stated yours. See how that works? :eyes: And it is STUPID and reckless to use abortion as birth control.

[Demit]

3. I am pro-choice. Choice being a positive thing. Positive things being worth advocating for.

Regardless of how you prefer to parse it, abortions are not a positive thing. Not something to be advocated for. Choice is.

[cali]

5. of course abortions can be a positive thing.

I had an abortion at 17. it was a very positive thing for me. Abortion is a medical procedure and a medical service. It's not inherently a bad thing.

[pnutbutr]

9. Do you ever wonder

what your child would be doing today if you had chosen not to have the abortion? Would it be a boy or a girl, what would you have named it? How old would it be today and would it just be starting to walk, maybe ties it's own shoes, read a word for the first time, play in the pool etc...

[cali]

11. Nope. I really don't and never have.

I don't think of a fetus I had aborted at 7 weeks as "my child". I have a kid. I love him more than anyone or anything, but I don't equate him with the fetus I aborted.

[pnutbutr]

17. ok

Is your kid human or a cat?

[uppityperson]

150. THANK YOU MOD FOR TSing THIS ASSHOLE

sorry for the caps but I read down this far and had to click on profile. THANK YOU!

[SidDithers]

178. Finally...

:applause:

Sid

[bullwinkle428]

222. ABOUT FUCKING TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:applause: :thumbsup: :applause: :thumbsup: :applause: :thumbsup:

[Viking12]

223. Amen. Same poster was asking everyone to be nice to Ms. California a few weeks ago

Going from thread to thread like a stalker. Clearly a troll.

[roody]

12. I frequently thank the universe, a doctor, and myself

that I am child-free.

[pnutbutr]

18. party it up man n/t

[roody]

40. Is it a sin that my life is such a lark?

[pnutbutr]

42. enjoy it, party it up man. n/t

[Sparkly]

33. Do you ever wonder

what your child would be doing today if you had chosen not to wear that condom? Would it be a boy or a girl, what would you have named it? How old would it be today and would it just be starting to walk, maybe tie its own shoes, read a word for the first time, play in the pool etc...

[pnutbutr]

36. cause condoms=abortion

:eyes:

[Sparkly]

38. Both prevent a child from being born.

So, do you ever wonder about the children you prevented from being born?

[pnutbutr]

41. there is no comparison here

one prevents pregnancy, the other ends pregnancy. Unless you feel like taking the fundie route and saying that jerking off is equal to abortion. But no, you don't really want to take that position do you?

[dem629]

62. One ends the existence of a potential child, the other never begins the process at all.

You know that.

I hope.

[dem629]

60. Ridiculous comparison.

You're comparing NOT fertilizing an egg with the removal of a fertilized egg/fetus/take your pick.

Laughable.

[Stellabella]

101. Why would you ask that?

Are you trying to be provocative or make her feel guilty for something that is irreversible?

What if the pregnancy had ended in miscarriage? Would you torture her asking the same questions?

Or maybe the baby would have died in childbirth, or SHE would have died in childbirth, or perhaps the child had a terrible birth defect, or was hurt somehow or killed by a car?

There is NO point in 'what ifs' in life, especially in this situation. You're just being cruel.

[GillesDeleuze]

169. so much win!

nice comment!

[Orsino]

176. The wingnuts are always eager to ask such questions about blastocysts...

...and show utter disregard for the children and adults snuffed out in war.

This is because the anti-choicers greatly prefer oppressing women to appearing to back down from their swaggering endorsements of organized violence.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

14. Did I say I enjoyed it? No, I said it was a positive thing for me.

i wasn't at all ready to have a child. I had no interest in carrying a child and giving it up for adoption. I'm neither happy or sad about it. I didn't enjoy it. I'm glad that I had the option to have a safe, legal abortion. Tough fucking shit that you don't approve, dear

[Demit]

37. To turn it back on you, did I say I didn't approve? Dear?

You really are saying that the choice is what you were glad of: "I'm glad that I had the option." The outcome was positive, preferable to what the alternative would have been, and on that we would agree. But abortion itself is not a positive thing. It's not exactly like getting laser surgery so you don't have to wear glasses anymore. I'm not sure why you want to sound all rah-rah about it.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

45. oh what crap. how unsurprising that you;'re a man.

as most people who post here know, I'm blunt about what I believe. And I'm blunt about calling crap on something I think is crap.

Comparing me to anti-gay legislators and pedophiles is beyond the pale.

alerted and don't ever come close to doing anything like that again.

[pnutbutr]

49. considering how pissed you are at that comment

I must have at least been close.

[VelmaD]

50. maybe she's just pissed...

because she's being harassed by yet another man who thinks he's entitled not only to tell women what to do with their uteruses...but how they are required to feel about it afterward. :eyes:

[cali]

53. and that would be the sound of the hammer meeting the nail square on

though I'm equally pissed by a woman telling me how I should feel.

[pnutbutr]

54. maybe you could read

before making judgments on my position on abortion. I didn't tell her how she was supposed to feel. I was making an educated guess based on when she had her abortion and her vehement support of them.

[VelmaD]

58. well your "educated guess"...

just repeated an anti-choice meme. And you sure as hell did imply pretty clearly that you had a better understanding of what she feels about her abortion than she does. Which makes you come off like yet another man telling a woman how she really feels - her opinion on the matter be damned.

[pnutbutr]

65. cool

So I'm anti-choice even though I'm pro-choice. I'm so confused now. Who am I?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

84. You're just being a total dick

You're not her shrink, so kindly STFU.

[uppityperson]

151. You are TS'd. That is who you are

[dem629]

64. She put the info out there. It's fair game for commentary.

[cali]

66. sure, and your stupid comments are fair game too, honey.

[dem629]

67. Yep. Go ahead, honey.

[cali]

69. don't worry, sweetums. I am. n/'t

[dem629]

71. Post away, then, sugar.

I'd love to see your highly intellectual analysis.

[cali]

85. you wouldn't recognize either intellectual analysis

or critical thinking if they both slapped you across the face. that much is abundantly clear.

[dem629]

87. In other words, as usual, you have no point.

Got it.

[Stellabella]

104. That wasn't commentary. That was abuse.

And if think that 'comment' was okay you're just as bad as the poster.

[dem629]

108. That's how you view it.

And I think that makes you as bad as the other poster.

Now what?

[Stellabella]

113. I see. What I said was as bad as telling someone she's the same as

a pedophile.

Well, you certainly have a firm grasp on logical reasoning.

Eff off.

[dem629]

122. And you certainly have a firm grasp of subjective views.

[AllieB]

72. Bingo.

If men could get pregnant, there would be no argument here. It's patriarchy pure and simple. :eyes:

[dem629]

74. Yeah, that explains women who are against abortion.

They want to be patriarchal, right? :eyes:

The effort to make this an anti-male diatribe is nothing more than deflection. Carry on.

[cali]

83. women can buy into patriarchy. hardly unheard of.

duh.

[dem629]

89. So you disagree with the other poster who implied men are the problem.

Good to know.

Or, maybe not?

Perhaps you, like the other poster, will get lost in the twisted logic as you continue your misandry.

You're too obvious.

[cali]

94. um, I said nothing of the sort. simply pointing out an obvious fact,.

but no, I don't think men are the problem anymore than I think women are the problem. I think specific people and ideologies are the problem. I think you are part of the problem. hope that clears things up.

[dem629]

98. LOL. Why am I part of the problem?

Because I'm commenting on a subject that you raised and I happen to not share your particular view?

Shocker.

[cali]

105. because you say you're pro-choice but you buy into the right wing meme

that abortion is intrinsically "bad". and you spread that meme.

[dem629]

114. Where did I say that?

I actually have a personal opinion on the issue, but it is NEVER on my checklist when scrutinizing political candidates who want my vote.

[Stellabella]

107. No, you're part of the problem because you agreed with a jerk who

compared her to a pedophile.

Grow up.

[dem629]

116. Try to follow along here. It's not that difficult.

Thank you.

[AllieB]

110. Most women are pro-choice.

Anti-choice women are typically those from strict religious upbringings that adhere to strict definitions of male and female roles. It's rare to find an educated, independent woman who is anti-choice.

[dem629]

119. Do you have data to back up that psychological profile?

Or is this just a gratuitous attack?

[AllieB]

146. Where is the attack?

:shrug:

You're a little irrational and jumping on perceived insults where they don't exist.

[dem629]

202. It's an attack on women, who the poster alleges aren't educated, liberated, etc.

I would think more DU'ers would be against another DU'er saying that other women who don't agree are just stupid.

Isn't that a sexist comment?

[uppityperson]

217. Not an attack but a description of anti-choice women. Not saying "women who don't agree are stupid"

but instead saying "It's rare to find an educated, independent woman who is anti-choice."

[dem629]

221. It's an attack by saying women who aren't pro-abortion (Cali's term)

are uneducated and not independent. It's an attempt to diminish them as human beings to devalue their opinion on this issue.

I know two pro-life women who are more educated than probably anybody in this thread. One has a PhD in economics, the other is a physician (ENT). Are their opinions worth less than a pro-choice grocery store cashier? (I happen to think they're of equal value.)

The posters outburst about pro-life women is simply a personal attack (aimed generally at women who are pro-life) and it's clearly done out of frustration.

[uppityperson]

225. It seems you didn't read the whole sentence. Try again...

"It's rare to find an educated, independent woman who is anti-choice."

1) anti-choice vs "pro-abortion" is Cali's term in the post you are taking offense at.
2) "It's rare to find" vs an attack on "women who aren't pro-abortion (Cali's term)". Perhaps you missed that qualifier?

[dem629]

227. A good way to test someone's sincerity when they're defending slights against another is to make

a small change.

Would it be acceptable to you if someone said: "It's rare to find an educated woman who is pro-choice"?

I'm not asking whether you would agree with that opinion (it's just an opinion, after all), but rather I am asking if you would not perceive some intent to imply that only stupid women were pro-choice. Will you be consistent here and say there's no implication?

For my part, I've met smart and stupid women and men on both sides of the issue.

[uppityperson]

154. how is that an attack?

unless you are assume that it means you

[dem629]

203. It's an attack on certain other women. See above.

[cali]

51. no, you weren't and that's no where near as pissed as I am at some

vile cretin who equated me with anti-gay legislators and pedophiles.

[Stellabella]

102. No, you're as far off the mark as you can get.

When someone gets angry at the things you say, it's NOT because you were 'close'. It's because you were cruel and offensive.

[Blue_Roses]

46. that's pure bullshit!

how in the hell would you know what it's like to have an unplanned pregnancy considering your a MAN! Until you have a uterus and can bear children you need to STFU!

[cali]

48. thank you.

just thanks.

cali

[pnutbutr]

52. I've been the 2nd party

to an unplanned pregnancy. She is now 1 year old.

I however don't have experience in the unwanted pregnancy department but that doesn't mean I am unable to use information I have received from those who have.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnutbutr]

59. That's not what I did

Am I seriously in some alternate universe where reading comprehension ceases to exist? Or maybe just the I'm going to take what he said and turn it into something vile and disgusting even though it's not what he said or even implied because he's disagreeing with me and I want to make him look like an asshole galaxy.

[cali]

61. oh, yes that is what you did.

anyone can see that's exactly what you did. You don't want to take the heat for what you wrote. you wrote it. you own it.

[pnutbutr]

68. I compared your denial

of the abortion affecting you and your vehement support of abortion as a way of copeing with your own issues related to the abortion. I didn't compare you personally. :eyes:

[VelmaD]

73. there's that anti-choice meme again

Love how you assume she has "issues" she needs to "cope" with.

[pnutbutr]

76. Everyone has issues

From reading her posts I suspect this is one of them. There's no reason to deny it, it's perfectly normal and should be addressed.

[cali]

80. you're making assumptions you're not qualified to make.

I assume that you are actually not pro-choice judging from your vehemence about how abortion is evil and your comparison of my denying "issues" from having had an abortion, to pedophiles and homophobes who deny that they're actually pedophiles and gay.

See how that works?

[pnutbutr]

86. did I say abortion was evil at any time anywhere?

You just tried to based your assumption on something that I never said or implied anywhere. You just made it up. I assumed based on the fact that you had an abortion and were vehemently promoting yourself as pro-abortion. It's kind of an unusual combination there as most people have some kind of issues related to getting an abortion unless they have other issues related to empathy and honestly don't give a flying f about aborting what would have been their child.

[cali]

90. yes, yes. I'm just an unfeeling psychopath because I don't regret

having had an abortion. dog, are you full of shit. and you're a passive agreessive piece of work, as well.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VelmaD]

92. actually... a lot of women...

who have early abortions don't really have "issues". And one wonders how many of those who do, have them because of either a) assholes who stand outside of clinics and call everyone who goes in a baby-killer or b) well meaning assholes who tell them if they don't have issues then there must be something wrong with them.

The most common feeling many women have after an abortion, particularly in the first trimester, is relief. But feel free to keep telling us how we should feel.

[uppityperson]

157. delete, not going to bother replying to TS'd asshole

[VelmaD]

158. you know...

they've been tombstoned

[uppityperson]

164. thanks, deleted message

good riddance to nasty rubbish

[VelmaD]

81. ya know, if I was as smartass...

I might assert that you have issues regarding needing to tell others how they feel. Whatever.

This thread has become ridiculous, particularly given what happened yesterday. All y'all who came onto this thread just to shit on cali can basically shove it at this point. Your opinions have been duly noted and will be filed properly.

[dem629]

99. I think it's pretty clear that you are the opposite of a smartass.

[VelmaD]

100. what witty repartee...

I am completely underwhelmed by your debating skills, btw.

[dem629]

103. Oh, how will I ever go on?

:eyes:

[VelmaD]

106. I don't care how you go...

but I have several suggestions for where you can go. :hi:

[dem629]

112. I'm sure they're all highly original suggestions!

If there's one thing this thread has put on full display, it's that the position you're trying to defend is indefensible. That's why the others on you side of this discussion quickly turned to personal attacks at the first sign of dissent.

Indefensible. Pure and simple. No two ways about it.

[cali]

118. why make stuff up? the attacks came from your "side" first.

and exactly what are you claiming is indefensible? Aren't you claiming to be pro-choice?

[dem629]

123. Your bitter responses were the first "attacks."

And I already answered your McCarthyistic inquiry about my views.

[VelmaD]

124. Please give me the coordinates...

for the bizarro world you live on where the position that women have the right to control their own bodies is indefensible. I would like to avoid that place if at all possible.

[dem629]

127. Of course you have to reframe the issue with semantics.

That's why.

[VelmaD]

128. it's not "reframing" the issue...

it is the fucking issue. You don't get any say in what goes on in my uterus. Neither should the clergy, the congress, the supreme court, any of my boyfriends, Randall Terry, or my cat. Only me.

It isn't about semantics - it's about women having the right to control their own destiny.

[dem629]

130. There's much more to it than that.

And in a representative democracy, with a first amendment, voting rights, etc.... we all get a say.

Sorry if that disappoints you.

[VelmaD]

132. make sure, the next time you need a medical procedure...

that you send me the forms for my explicit approval, since we all get a say in other people's private medical decisions now

[dem629]

134. If it involves more than one existing life, I'll do that.

[VelmaD]

137. I'm afraid it's not going to work that way...

that would be terribly sexist, since only women would have to put up with other people's noses in our business under that paradigm. So, if I don't get any privacy, you don't either. The next time the doctor tells you to turn your head and cough, we all get to fucking watch.

[dem629]

141. You're equating a hernia exam with the ending of a life?

Great logic there.

I can see now that you have no serious point to make.

You can throw around terms like "sexist" and whatever else makes you feel better. It makes no difference to me because it's empty rhetoric.

You can't defend your view.

[VelmaD]

144. apparently you either...

cannot comprehend my point, or you are acting intentionally obtuse. The rights to privacy and control of your own body seem like uncomplicated concepts to me.

And yes, it is sexist to expect women to let people have input into their private decisions without ever expecting the same from men. It seems simple again, either butt the hell out of where you aren't wanted, or be willing to give up your right to privacy in return.

And if you don't like the hernia example, how about this one. How would you feel if you had to get permission from your female partner to get a vasectomy...or a viagra prescription? How would you feel if your ability to make decisions about your own life was constantly questioned? How would you like it if your reproductive organs were used as a political football?

[dem629]

204. You still haven't come up with an analogy that involves ending a life.

[noiretextatique]

195. no, you don't "get a say"

per roe vs. wade, you don't "get a say" in whether or not a woman chooses an abortion. how in the holy hell can you even THINK you should have "a say?" should i "have a say" regarding a medical procedure YOU need?

[dem629]

205. The medical question has been covered.

As for having a say, we all do. We have first amendment rights, and should this ever go back to the states in the form of referendum, everyone will have a say there too.

[uppityperson]

159. The right to a legal hygienic abortion is "indefensible"?

"No two ways about it"?

Good grief

[dem629]

206. There's the legal question and then the moral question.

Obviously right now it's legal. That's not set in stone.

[uppityperson]

216. So the right to a legal hygienic abortion vs a knitting needle one is a moral question?

I agree that it is. Anyone who says women do not have the right to one that is survivable, should only be able to get a back alley one, or stick a knitting needle up themselves, get an infection and die because of that, that person is morally wrong.

[dem629]

220. I never said women don't have a right to one.

The limit should be two independent doctors signing off on the health of the mother or fetus. Other than that, no. It should not be allowed as a form of post-conception birth control.

And something being legal just because people are going to do it anyway and might endanger themselves (and others) is no reason in itself for something to be legal. You could extend that flawed logic to almost any activity. It is an invalid argument.

[uppityperson]

226. And you don't answer my question. So the right to a legal hygienic abortion vs a knitting needle one

So the right to a legal hygienic abortion vs a knitting needle one is a moral question?

You are the one who said there is legal and there is moral. I agree there is a moral issue, in that anyone who says women do not have the right to one that is survivable, should only be able to get a back alley one, or stick a knitting needle up themselves, get an infection and die because of that, that person is morally wrong.

You answer back about legalities. How about the moral issue?

[dem629]

228. Why would anyone have a moral responsiblity for someone else

doing something dangerous and/or illegal to themselves?

[cali]

109. my guess is that you'll go in the same inane and pedestrian manner

you demonstrate throughout this thread.

[uppityperson]

155. delete, poster was ts'd

[cali]

77. weasel words.

you brought pedophiles and homophobes into the conversation, dearie. and you compared my so called "vehemence" to the denials of pedophiles and homophobes.

and the word is coping, not copeing. as any half way educated person would know.

And no, sorry, I'm not in denial over some deep rooted pain at having had an abortion. And my views on abortion are hardly radical. For instance, I think late term abortions for any reason other than the health and welfare of the mother, are a truly bad thing. You don't have a clue about me or what I believe, so just shove it with your uninformed opinions.

[pnutbutr]

79. It's stuffed

And I'm sorry I can't help you with your reading comprehension issue. :hi:

[gbate]

75. I agree with you to an extent.

As a woman who had an abortion and regretted it, I can tell you now that I went to the darkside (pro-life radical) for awhile to "atone" myself.

Doesn't mean that it happens with every woman, but in my case, it did. It took me almost two decades to reach the peaceful place I am now.

[pnutbutr]

78. congratulations

on finding your peaceful place. :hi:

[noiretextatique]

196. i had regrets too, but i didn't become an anti-choicer

i still supported a woman's right to make her own decision.

[Bill McBlueState]

82. so this is what we're doing on DU now

Accusing women who have had abortions of secretly resenting themselves.

This website has come a long way.

[pnutbutr]

88. It's not uncommon

for women who have had abortions to resent their choice later on. If you can prove that my assumption is not based on a well established fact then do it and I will gladly retract everything I said.

[cali]

95. demanding proof. Ok, I demand proof of what you're claiming

YOU made the claim that women who have abortions "resent their choice". Prove that women (particularly women who have early abortions) resent that choice later in life. most amusing that YOU would be demanding proof when you haven't supplied an iota of evidence for your claim.

[VelmaD]

96. here...have some actual facts...

on what women really feel after an abortion. Research shows it's not what you think. Reference #3 would be good for you to read repeatedly.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/post_abortion_issues.html

[AllieB]

115. Don't expect an answer. Certain posters tend to ignore facts

when they don't agree with them. :eyes:

[Stellabella]

120. Sounds like you get off on women's mental anguish.

That's really sick.

This thread has been great for updating my ignore list.

[gbate]

185. Just because a decision is made possibly for the best, doesn't mean you don't have

regret or feelings of loss.

It's a well-known fact. (and not just perpetuated by the radical pro-lifers)

I don't understand why it's a debatable subject.

[VelmaD]

189. the facts are otherwise...

I've already posted this link, but will do so again: http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/post_abortion_issues.html

The truth is most women don't feel regret - they feel relief. It is "just perpetuated by the radical pro-lifers". Please don't spread the meme. Thanks.

[gbate]

198. Actually, I will say whatever I choose to say or spread whatever I want to spread.

Just because I am pro-choice, doesn't mean I don't believe what is reality for many women I know.

[ohheckyeah]

208. Well known to whom?

Where are you getting your information?

[cali]

91. thanks, bill. nice to have a guy understand how

fucked up this shit is.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

117. A long way down into the RW gutter...

sadly. :(

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demit]

55. I'd love to trade endearments with you all day, but I can't. I'll just stick to my one point:

Saying you are pro-abortion means that you advocate for it. Saying that abortion is a positive thing implies that you think everyone should have one. You posted this thread to say explicitly that you are NOT JUST pro-choice, you are pro-abortion. I posted in answer to you to point out what being pro-anything means.

You have gotten increasingly hostile to me because you let yourself leap to the conclusion that I disapproved of the event of your having an abortion. That's not true. I take exception to your trumpeting of the act of abortion, instead of the choice that made it possible. There's a definite difference. I've watched your posts for a long time here, and I know you are an intelligent woman, and I think if you step away from your hair-trigger response to what you see as judgmentalism, I think you'll see what the difference is.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnutbutr]

70. :rofl:

Now this is funny. :rofl:

[Demit]

126. Oh for heaven's sake. Don't make me rethink saying you are an intelligent woman.

Let me pose a question: If a woman came up to you and said she was pregnant, and wasn't sure whether to have the baby or not, and asked for your advice, what would you say? What would you advocate to her? If you answered "I'm not just pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion. Abortion is a positive thing", what conclusion do you think she would draw?

These are your words, cali. "I'm not just pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion." I didn't put them into your mouth. You're fiercely proud of having said them. Even though you've gone on to qualify the statement with "abortion CAN be positive" and "abortion was a NET positive FOR ME", you still hit out at anyone who objects to your original 'I'm pro-abortion' formulation. Who asks you to consider carefully exactly what those words really mean.

[cali]

129. no they aren't my words.I said abortion can be a positive thing.

I also said it can be a negative thing. you're completely twisting my words. I find that disgusting.

[dem629]

131. Why can't you take responsibility for your own words?

Or at least admit that you misspoke in two posts.

One or the other would at least give you some credibility on the issue.

[cali]

139. I'm happy to take responsibility for what I said. Not happy to have my words twisted

by you. Oh, and I don't think I"m the one that has credibility issues. YOU undoubtedly are.

[dem629]

142. Your credibility problem is that you can't defend your position.

That's all I'm saying.

[cali]

147. of course I can, and I have. repeatedly. and my OP is clear.

you're simply doing what you do best- pulling shit out of certain orifice and waving it around, proudly proclaiming it as truth.

[dem629]

207. You haven't and you can't.

That's why you keep posting outbursts like this latest post. It means nothing.

[Demit]

148. I copied & pasted from your posts here.

"I'm not just pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion." —your original post
"abortion CAN be positive" —post #5
"abortion was a NET positive FOR ME" —well, that was in the post where you called me honeypie, since deleted, post #43, but you say it was 'positive for me' elsewhere several times.

I can't twist exact quotes, cali.

I also can't find the post where you said it can be a negative thing. It's not in this thread, anyway.

[cali]

165. whoa. nothing like quoting me and cutting a ;HUGE chunk of the post out.

that is so dishonest and disgusting. shame on you. shame, shame, shame.

This is my OP:

I'm not just pro-choice. I'm pro-abortion providers and pro-abortion services.
Abortion is a medical procedure. I support it being safe, legal and widely available so that women can exercise their constitutional rights to avail themselves of it if they need or want to.


Abortion is not a dirty word or a dirty deed, unless it's forced upon a woman or done in a reckless manner that threatens the health and welfare of a woman.

So yeah, I'm pro-abortion.

I make it very clear in what context I'm "pro-abortion".

And saying it's a net postive for me is NOT saying it's positive for everyone or in every circumstance.

you really are a piece of.... work. yeah, I think you deserve something.

[Demit]

183. You say you made it clear in what context you're "pro-abortion". So you're not pro-abortion in every

context? I guess I misunderstood. What context would you not be pro-abortion in?

You say now that you're not saying abortion is positive for everyone or in every circumstance. I guess that means it depends. What does it depend on, cali? Could it be—choice?

You're angry with me for pointing out the pitfalls of saying, in a flat declarative statement, that you're pro-abortion instead of being merely pro-choice. I think you're also furious because you thought your thread was going to be some kind of proud woman's manifesto that everyone would chime in & congratulate you for, and somebody took issue with your premise.

You say I'm a piece of work and deserve "something", but you're the one the mods are deleting posts from. I suspect it has to do with the way you express yourself.

[ohheckyeah]

210. She already stated what context.

"Abortion is not a dirty word or a dirty deed, unless it's forced upon a woman or done in a reckless manner that threatens the health and welfare of a woman.

[ohheckyeah]

209. Saying you are pro-choice

means you don't have the courage to be pro-abortion.

[Stellabella]

111. What is wrong with you?

No woman ever enjoys a medical procedure.

[Heidi]

149. Why is it that you seem to enjoy being so hateful to another member of this community?

Frankly, your hateful comments in this thread speak volumes about your character.

[Renew Deal]

63. Well said

[slackmaster]

6. I see it as an unfortunate but necessary procedure that can often be avoided

By careful use of less expensive birth control methods.

[zbdent]

7. we know that ReRushlicans sure as hell aren't too concerned about

people following the letter of the law or the spirit of the law ... unless it can smear a lib/Dem ...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. Abortion is evil. But certain evils are necessary under certain circumstances...

....just as war and homicide is evil, but both may be justifiable in certain circumstances. And abortion is no exception.

Other than the death penalty, which I believe is simply an exercise in futility and done out of humanity's inability to gain true justice after the killing of another (and thus serves as a crude and ineffective substitute for actual justice), I think there will still be rightful justifications in any situation where a human life is concerned.

Abortion is a medical procedure, yes, but a highly complicated and complex one ethically. To deny that is to be willfully ignorant to that extent. You don't see people getting upset and up in arms over wart removals, do you?

[cali]

16. No, all abortion is not evil.

I don't think a fetus in the first trimester is a person. I don't think it's evil for the victim of rape or incest to have an abortion. I do think choosing to abort a healthy 6 month+ fetus is an "evil"- though that's not a word I generally employ. And sorry, wart removal has zip to do with it. And there are a fair number of people that get upset over birth control- even bc that isn't a supposed abortifacient.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

21. Whether a "person" or not, a first trimester fetus has a seperate DNA from the mother...

...and that in and of itself throws in a whole load of ethical issues that don't exist in procedures such as wart removal or plastic surgery. That's why this issue will continue to be so heated for years to come. My greatest regret is that the rhetoric of both sides has become so self-serving that it's obscured the chance for a more reasoned discussion on the matter.

[cali]

24. it does for you. it does not for me.

look, I sympathize with what you're saying about the debate, and I don't lump all those opposed to abortion being legal together, but the fact is yeah, realistically it is about being self-serving for women. Why shouldn't we be self-serving. Why should we put a fetus above our own needs and welfare?

[VelmaD]

28. that's what it boils down to...

women are required to put absolutely everyone ahead of themselves.

[RadicalTexan]

20. Abortion is not evil.

Abortion is not equivalent to war.

Pfft.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. Not equivilent, no.

But there will be commmon elements.Any situation where you are dealing with either a human life or developing human life thing are going to get ethically, well, hairy.

[cali]

26. so is a zygote a developing human life?

Is a blastoyst?

[Sparkly]

32. Amazing, isn't it?

An egg isn't life; a sperm isn't life; but the instant sperm meets egg, OmiGod! It's a baby, a human, a person with rights!!

Why isn't every act of sex -- hell, every erection, every twinkle in a man's eye -- considered a potential "life" then? Think of all the children that aren't being born! Maybe Tuesday night's encounter would have cured cancer! Maybe if we don't act on the next hard-on, a future president will be prevented!! No wonder we need insurance companies to cover Viagra -- the human race is at stake!!

:sarcasm:

[cali]

34. it's amazing alright

I'm still stunned about the "glad you enjoyed your abortion" comment. really didn't expect to see that shit here.

[dem629]

47. You really shouldn't have skipped health and biology classes.

Sperm on its own does nothing.

And egg on its own does nothing.

What's the biological purpose of putting the two together?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

35. If the new DNA has formed and the clock begins to wind, then yes.

Listen, I'm not going to say that it deserves the same rights as a fully born human being. But on the other hand, I also think it has more ethical consideration than medical procedures dealing with things such as warts or internal organs.

[redqueen]

179. Abortion is evil?

Holy shit.

[safeinOhio]

13. I live in a red area

and have to see all of those anti-abortion bill boards. I would love to see like minded get together and pay for bill boards that state "Human life begins at birth", and some Bible quotes to prove it.

[patrice]

15. I have never met anyone who isn't Pro-Abortion. We are just fighting over who draws the line.

Almost everyone regrets the "necessity" of Abortion, but sort of like Chemo-Therapy, we want the option.

Personally, I think anyone who does not want to be a mother should NEVER be a mother, no matter what the circumstances. However, if it were I or my family, Adoption is what I'd choose. I don't understand why people can kill a fetus, but can't give it to someone else to love, but, perhaps, the truth, i.e. they ARE what/who they are WHATEVER that is, is preferable.

[Lorien]

162. I wouldn't call myself "pro-abortion" just as I wouldn't call myself

"pro-suicide" even though I support assisted suicide. I don't cheer for the procedures, I support a persons right to choose them. I wish that no one ever felt the need to in either case but that's not the world we live in.

[cali]

201. but odds are you do support abortion providers and abortion services

you support abortion being legal, so yeah, in a very real sense, you're pro-abortion.

[patrice]

213. my sentiments exactly

Human life is NOT sacred and pretending that it is by outlawing abortion will only make our problems worse, because abortion is a symptom, not a cause.

It is a crime against love to lie about these things and if you don't think that's true, look at how long the lies have been the coin-of-the-realm and look at the general status of our culture's love-quotient.

There are many people who need to get over the notion that all you have to do is "believe" all of the pretty lies purely enough and things come true. It doesn't work.

We must begin with the truth. Human life is NOT sacred. We are abysmal failures at the one and only commandment of The New Testament and that fact reflects badly on those who have assumed responsibility for The Good News. Religion is a Failure.

Once an individual admits these things, then it becomes possible to begin to learn by honoring one another as best each of us can in our daily actions and interactions. Maybe that will take us where we very much need to go.

STOP the Lies.

[RadicalTexan]

19. Me, too

I'm tired of the tiptoeing around this issue to avoid hurting the feelings of rightwing wackos who think a zygote is more important than I am.

I am PRO-ABORTION.

If women need - or want - abortions, they should get them. Period. I will not compromise on this.

[cali]

22. It's not just the right-wingers. take a look at the reaction I got from

saying that having an abortion at 17 was a positive thing for me.

[VelmaD]

25. yeah...

I was happy to see this thread get started, and not at all surprised to see it invaded by the oh so concerned. :eyes: Our poor little ladybrains can't possibly grasp the ethical and moral dillema.

I no longer expect much from other Democrats when it comes to women's issues.

[cali]

29. got to admit, I am surprised by some of the comments in this thread

and these are our allies. oh, well.

[Lars39]

135. Hi, VelmaD!

Good to see you again! :D :hug: :hi:

[VelmaD]

140. good to be back...

though it looks like not much has changed around here

[Lars39]

143. Gotten worse, if anything.

:(

[VelmaD]

145. that's not really a surprise...

this place never has been what you would call woman friendly...I'm sure the primary season around here was just a joy to behold

[Lars39]

152. I literally didn't venture into the GD: Primary forum.

Life's short enough as it is. :)

[redqueen]

181. "ladybrains"

:rofl:

No shit, that's precisely what it boils down to.

How kind of them to so delicately lecture us on dilemmas... we'd never have a clue if they didn't so righteously educate us.
:sarcasm:

[VelmaD]

182. I can't take credit...

for "ladybrains"...got it from Melissa and Shakesville I think. Or maybe Twisty Faster at I Blame the Patriarchy.

[katandmoon]

93. You were very brave to admit that and I admire you greatly for doing so.

[cali]

97. thanks. I'm not ashamed of it.

I am surprised that I got such a negative reaction from it- though really it was only a few who reacted that way.

[katandmoon]

138. For me it wouldn't be a matter of shame, but fear. I'd be afraid somebody would make it their

business to learn my identify and come after me physically.

[Maru Kitteh]

27. I'm pro-healthcare and pro-women's sovereignty so yeah

I'm pro abortion.

[BolivarianHero]

30. I can't believe it's so difficult to keep an abortion clinic open in some places...

Where I'm from, only 8% of the population is fundamentalist and the idea of closing down an abortion clinic would get you laughed at by most people.

[cali]

31. Canada has also had its own problems with violent pro-lifers

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.
November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.
November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.
July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unindentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.<25>

Bombing and property damage
February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.<26>
May 18, 1992: A Toronto, Ontario clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.<27>

[uppityperson]

163. Unfortunately though, that 8% can get really violent at times

The threats are serious and the risks can be high. As evidenced by this weekend's happenings

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. yes, its very strange to be for something in theory but not practice.

if you support choice, one should support those making the choice possible

[ismnotwasm]

121. Yes

I get sick the expectation for women to perform emotional flagellation of some sort of for the rest of their lives for having an abortion. I'm also sick of those turn a woman's right to choose into some sort of medieval tragedy play.

It's personal, and the emotional intensity of the experience depends on the women. The ones I talk to express relief first and If I know them well enough for them to confide in me they'll talk out the why's and how's.

[cali]

133. well said. thanks. but boy, does this thread demonstrate how many people

even here, don't have a freakin' clue.

[ismnotwasm]

180. Seriously, huh?

I'm seeing a lot of strange mental gymnastics, and they add up to being just fine with violating women's human rights.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

197. well stated. nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

160. I'm pro-choice and pro-single-payer

Safe abortion should be available and "free", as should stitches for a cut, or pills for an infection.

Without someone trying to lay extra guilt.

And counseling should be free and available to any who want it. Because of, well, because of anything.

[progressoid]

168. Me too.

k/r

[Greyhound]

170. I hope this doesn't change your mind but,

I agree with you completely.
:thumbsup:

[cali]

172. nah, I'm glad.

this thread has depressed me. I didn't think what I wrote in my OP would be particularly controversial. boy, was I ever wrong.

[Forkboy]

173. This is DU.

I would have been surprised if it didn't go like this.

Hey, on the bright side, you flushed out a real turd above who got the axe. :toast:

[Withywindle]

174. I agree with you.

It's weird that some people are so grudgingly pro-choice - oh, they'll defend choice in a mealy-mouthed way, but they still have that expectation that a woman who has an abortion needs to be consumed with guilt the rest of her life or else there's something wrong with her. Er, NO.

You are NOT alone: http://www.imnotsorry.net/

And as for men who go on at great length about what we REALLY feel, no matter what we think we feel in our widdle confused wimmin-brains: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/13/8257

"Mansplaining" has now entered the lexicon.

[cali]

175. thanks, and thanks for the links. n/t

[redqueen]

190. Wow... Men Explain Things To Me is brilliant.

Thank you!

[Withywindle]

215. Isn't it?

You're welcome!

Perhaps ironically, I find that essay helped explain DECADES of frustration and annoyance to me.

[redqueen]

224. Heh, yes.

It puts decades of offensive and confusing treatment by those Very Important Men in perspective, that's for sure. :)

[solstice]

177. So am I. I've had an abortion and so have most women I know.

And the thought of losing the right to control our own bodies is very chilling.

[redqueen]

184. Me too.

Thanks for this thread, cali. Very enlightening.

[SidDithers]

188. K&R. Abortion is not evil. Nor is it wrong...

And there should be just as many abortions as there needs to be. Not more, and not fewer.

Whether done out of necessity or choice, it is for the woman to decide the best course of action for her. An abortion can be regrettable, but doesn't have to be.

But most importantly, abortion is a private matter. The rest of us have no business questioning either the motive, or the emotions, of a woman who has had, or is considering, an abortion.

Sid

[Ohio Joe]

191. Agreed - K&R - nt

[Gregorian]

192. That's brave. And honest.

Pro-abortion sounds strong. But I support that. The alternative is far worse. No choice means no life.

[noiretextatique]

199. i'm pro-abortion too

i had an abortion when i was 18, and it was mostly a positive experience for me too. i've had some regrets over the years, but it's not something i pine about every day.

i also have regrets about getting drunk the night before i was supposed to meet lina wertmueller and missing the bus the next morning. i regret not doing a director internship at CBS. i regret not going to graduate school right after college. i regret being so broken-hearted over a bad relationship that i missed out on a potentially good one.
my abortion regrets fall into the same category.

[Reterr]

200. "Abortion is not a dirty word or a dirty deed"

No it isn't :thumbsup:.

[Mike 03]

211. Yes, me too, without equivocation of any kind.

No qualifications, no apologies.

Kick to the moon and rec.

[Mad_Dem_X]

212. Right there with you.

"Abortion is not a dirty word or a dirty deed, unless it's forced upon a woman or done in a reckless manner that threatens the health and welfare of a woman."

Any attempt to control a woman is WRONG.

[Texasgal]

214. Pro-abortion IS a dirty word.

CHOICE should be the mantra.

Who chooses to undergo a painful medical procedure?

Please stop spreading this lie.

CHOICE is about women making a decision about their health and their own well being. All women who agree with choice agree with having a medical procedure be safe and legal... just like anything else. :shrug:

[cali]

218. please try reading more carefully. I am pro-abortion providers

I am pro-abortion services. I am pro-abortion being legal, safe and widely available. It is in that sense that I'm pro-abortion. You ask: "Who chooses to undergo a painful medical procedure?" Lots of women choose to have an abortion- nor is an early term abortion ususally a painful procedure.

Abortion itself isn't a negative or a positive. it's a medical procedure that I support women having access to. If you can't deal with that, well, too bad, but I won't shut up.

[Patiod]

219. My childhood friend had a safe, legal, sterile abortion

in a clean local hospital, without hassle, with her mother by her side. Was it a "positive" experience? No. Was it the best experience possible under the circumstances? Absolutely.

And an experience that should be available today when it's needed.

My former friend had gotten into heavy drug use in high school (heroin, I think, plus speed and alcohol) and gotten pregnant. She and her Mom realized that she had no future with the older, drug-dealer father, and that the baby would be likely to have been damaged by all the different drugs she was using.

She had a clean abortion at a local hospital, jettisoned the boyfriend, and sobered up. She got pregnant again not much later, but this time she was sober, and so was the father (a differnet guy), so they married, and had two more kids. Saw her at a reunion, and she's a happy mom, still married. The clean, safe, legal abortion (as opposed to some back-ally operation) enabled her to have more children when she had straightened up - another plus that "pro-lifers" don't ever mention. It's unlikely that this life would have been possible if she had continued the pregnancy (which would have kept her tied to the skanky father of the child), and adoption would merely have foisted a potentially drug-damaged child onto some unsuspecting couple.

I've told this story and been challenged by a "pro-life" Catholic friend who went to the same high school.

"Who are you talking about? I don't remember anything like that"
"Dana"
"Oh, yeah....That's right."

Even Little Miss Self Righteous can't argue that a safe, clean, legal abortion wasn't the best option.

So yes Cali. I'm an adoptee, and I'm with you.