Did Lambert lose Idol because he is gay? Straight people don't have this question.

[dsc]

I suspect, but don't know, that I didn't get offered a job because I was presumed to be gay. Truthfully, I wouldn't have taken the job had it been offered so even if I did on a practical level it wasnt a huge loss. Similarly Adam will never know if he lost Idol due to the perception he is gay. Just like me as a practical matter it likely won't be a huge loss for him either way. But on a psychological level it is a different story. It makes us a little less likely to be open with strangers for fear of what might happen. That is why the enemies of gays don't want us covered by civil rights laws. They want us to literally disappear. They want us to wonder if we will be seen by the wrong person doing the wrong thing.

There is still a substantial minority of people in this country who sincerely believe that gays are unfit to have any type of protections. We shouldn't be out doctors or lawyers or teachers. We shouldn't be able to rent an apartment in their building. We shouldn't be real citizens. Anyone who voted against Lambert because he is gay, will also not hire his gay brothers and lesbian sisters to serve their food, fix their cars, defend their country, or heal their wounds. As long as we are like Clay Aiken was and deny our true selves then we are OK. As long as we claim God healed us like McClurkin then we are OK. But if we say, openly and proudly, that we are what God made us, gay and lesbian, then we aren't fit to work, live, or play around them.

It matters if Adam lost Idol because he is gay. It just does.

[H2O Man]

1. Well said.

Nominated.

[stray cat]

2. Hopefully only a minority voted for or against someone because of sexual orientation

[NYCGirl]

3. IMO, he probably lost because all the tween girls who vote dozens of times

thought the other guy was cuter.

[Lady President]

152. Exactly. Kris was like voting for a puppy

Kris has that non-threatening look that tween girls love. I heard that American Idol tried to keep Kris's wife off camera as much as possible to maintain his non-sexual image.

Bottom line, this is not a talent contest where the best singer wins.

[malaise]

4. Check out Frank Rich

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/opinion/24rich.html?_r=1

[LostinVA]

5. I was fired from a job for being gay -- 1992

I had been laid off from a magazine job, and worked at WaldenBooks for about 18 months. Next thing I know, I was fired because I was gay -- I was told this (they had went into my bag and found a "homosexual book). When I called Corporate the next day about it, they said I had been fired for theft. I raised hell, and got the firing taking off my record.

Adam was heads and shoulders above Kris, the nice Christian boy who's married, bland, and not as good as some kids who play in area coffeehouses. There was a campaign against Adam. Now, Adam will get a great contract and do well, but it's the point of it all.

DSC is right: Adam didn't get the job because he's gay (I give Simon props -- he wanted Adam to get the job. Simon was most displeased.)

[dsc]

7. glad you are able to get the firing off your record

That is evil that they at least didn't have the guts to be honest as it was legal for them to have done so.

[Kahuna]

13. Adam didn't win because he didn't have enough supporters to counter

the anti-gay vote. Where were the GLBT groups? Why didn't they organize to counter the bigots? There will always be people who vote against something. There are always voters who will vote for something. Adam just didn't have enough voters to vote for his awesomeness, in light of the fact that he is also gay and just as deserving of the title.
:patriot:

[LostinVA]

24. Yup, 'cause it's Teh Gays' fault, just like Prop 8

:wtf:

[KittyWampus]

35. You become a parody by doing that.

[bluedawg12]

47. Teh Gay should be everywhere all at once- omniscient, fighting all things all the time

never is it the fault of people organizing against someone simply because they are gay, they have no culpability. :sarcasm:

[Kahuna]

54. When the frick did I say the anti people have no culpability??? Grow up!

I said very clearly that they are always around. And as adults, knowing that, you have to organize to counter that. There was no organization on Adam's behalf to counter that. That is what I said, because it is true.

[bluedawg12]

67. Learn to READ. Was I talking to you? Are you LiV? Do you have amnesia about your past post?

But since you brought it up..."there was no organization on Adam's behalf to counter that." - Kahuna

Wasn't this your reply in an "activist" thread, one of many, on behalf of Adam Lambert?

Kahuna (1000+ posts) Wed May-13-09 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
30. Adam's 3 numbers to vote, 866-436-5703, 5706, or 5709. Text is the same
last four digits.

In this thread, posted May12th? One of many threads and internet sites promoting Lambert?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=130932&mesg_id=130932

saracat (1000+ posts) Tue May-12-09 11:00 PM
Original message
Please remember to vote for Adam Lambert tonight on American Idol and vote against hate and
bigotry! . The Fundies and the Freepers( FR is supporting Danny Gokey, the Fundie choir director) will be powere votong against him. We need to take a stand.We may not be able to do much about Miss california , but we can take a stand here. Please vote for Adam Lambert and vote against hate! it is reported that Adam will be singing "One" by Bono as the selection made by Simon Cowell as the judges selection.This is a tribute to all who celebrate differences.Please make your voice heard and vote as often as you can.
............

Were you expecting Lambda, the ACLU, the Human Rights Campaign to get involved perhaps?

Here's just another thread in GLBT on this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=131347&mesg_id=131347

Here's an interesting comment, should we fight vote stuffing on AI?

shaniqua6392 (1000+ posts) Thu May-21-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. 38 million votes from little old Arkansas with 3 million citizens??
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=132313&mesg_id=132477

............


Here is the take home lesson.

In the fight for gay rights:

1.) Don’t blame the victim.

2.) Realize that the RRR is well organized, pre-existing to American Idol and to Mr. Lambert. They are well funded. They have established mailing lists and donors.

3.) They have a weekly bully pulpit from which to reinforce their message.

4.) Adam Lambert should be judged strictly by his talent and not by fear baiting and homophobic slurs from the right.

5.) And yes, Virginia, the boney fingers of the haters has even reached into something as light and entertaining as AI. Don’t blame the victim. They didn’t organize to fight Adam–their organization was intact and is in place to rally at anytime around any issue they chose.

6.) It is admirable that in the midst of worries about the repeal of HATE8, DADT, DOMA, the economy, Gitmo, etc. etc., that people found the time to form an internet grass roots movement on behalf of a talented kid on AI who was being shafted for being “different.”

The classical David and Goliath story, a young singer and his fans go up against a well organized group - and they didn’t do enough? :rofl:

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid84667.asp

[Kahuna]

72. WTF? Your response has zero to do with what I posted. Did you vote vote for Adam?

Because I don't recall see you on any of the Saracat threads trying to drum up support for Adam. :eyes:

[bluedawg12]

75. WTF don't you get? Adam Lambert's sexuality has nothing to do with recognizing his talent

that's the problem. He was attacked for being gay not for being a bad singer. Get it?

That's the offense.

My reply showed exactly what you said did not occur-- there was support for Adam, but the RRR is a big, well established group and they mobilized.

Stop blaming the gays.

[TankLV]

81. You don't fucking get it and never will.

It's "the gays" fault for not organizing...YOUR WORDS...that is BLAMING THE VICTUM!!!

[bluedawg12]

83. Some are just adamantly determined to ignore the underlying gay baiting.

That's the real issue.

It's well stated in the OP, just in case some couldn't connect the dots.

But if we say, openly and proudly, that we are what God made us, gay and lesbian, then we aren't fit to work, live, or play around them. It matters if Adam lost Idol because he is gay. It just does. -DSC in this OP

It's not about did you vote or not, it's much, much bigger than that, it's about admitting that gays had to mobilize against a well funded rightwing machine that went out of it's way to dehumanize a young performer.

The morning after the final vote and "winner" was declared, I was listening (briefly) to Morning Joe on MSNBC channel surfing before work and I happened to overhear their media guru, whatever her name...her snide little snarky, preppy, analysis was, "America wasn't ready for a man in mascara with nail polish." WTF?

Really? That's the sum and substance of Adam Lambert's efforts in singing his heart out?

It's about admitting and accepting that anytime a performer is pegged as "gay" or "different" they are already fighting an uphill battle against bigotry.

This is not news to gays who have lost their job, or been marginalized at work, it is something that some privileged str8's cannot bear to admit.

[DatManFromNawlins]

154. So, now they're well-funded too?

I bet you've worn out your "Jumping to Conclusions" mat and your Magic 8 ball.

[QC]

48. Everything is my fault. Sometimes I just don't know how I bear the guilt of it all. n/t

[Kahuna]

59. Did you vote for Adam? If so, how many times did you vote for him?

If you didn't bother to vote for him, I don't get your side in this argument.

[bluedawg12]

71. Of course you DON"T get it. It's about discriminating against someone one because of who they are

not about how many times we voted.

How hard is that to comprehend?

[Kahuna]

73. Since you would rather create strawmen than to confront the issue

of countering the haters, I have no choice but to ignore you. There is no possibility for an honest conversation.

[bluedawg12]

77. Blame the righwing phobes that voted against Lambert because of who he was

and not how he sang.

[fishwax]

51. so there was an apparently large bigot vote, but the bigots aren't to blame

The GLBT groups are to blame because the bigots were apparently better organized? :wtf:

[Kahuna]

56. I blow down your idiotic strawman. Where was the organization by the

glbt groups? Where? Even here on DU, Saracat tried very hard to organize to counter the hate in the GBLT forum. I'm straight, but I was there with her 100%. I don't recall seeing you on any of those threads pledging support for Adam. I was there, so don't blame me. I call utter bullshit on that.

[bluedawg12]

78. You should stop using the word "strawman" when it points to the truth. n/t

[LostinVA]

101. I am honestly confused by the use of the term "strawman"

[fishwax]

134. idiotic strawman? what are you talking about?

I just repeated your argument. :shrug:

I was there, so don't blame me. I call utter bullshit on that.

Who blamed you? I certainly didn't. :shrug:

[LostinVA]

100. Yes, but repeating what the poster said is a "strawman" for some reason

I am perplexed.

[fishwax]

135. it is perplexing indeed n/t

[tblue37]

110. Simon lost out on the "Idol" prospect who would have made his company

a gazillion dollars. I hate the thought that Adam might have lost because he is gay. On the other hand, I am glad he did lose. The Idol contract is like indentured servitude. The Idol loses all control pretty much forever. But Adam now gets to retain control over his life and his professional career, and all the exposure he got pretty much guarantees that his career will skyrocket. He will have the record contracts, the concert tours, the roles on Broadway, in movies, on TV. He will become a megastar--without having to sell his soul, his name, his image, and his careeer to the Idol folks forever.

The rather bland performers need the Idol machine to get themselves a musical career. Adam Lambert was able to use the machinery to get the exposure that will guarantee his career. In the long run he didn't actually lose anything worth having.

I don't watch the show, but I have read about the sort of contract the winners must sign. I was struck by all the publicity surrounding the whole Adam Lambert issue, so I watched the final night of singing and the last half of the finale. I was very impressed by Lambert's performances both nights. He will do just fine--much better than he would with that Idol contract tying him down for the rest of his career. I suspect that he is well aware of this fact, too, and that is why he seemed perfectly happy that the other young man, whom he seemed to be good friends with, won.

[babylonsister]

6. I don't think you'll ever know the answer.

As a big fan of Adam's, I've read a bit about how this outcome came to be.

I guess it's been proven that young girls make up the majority of the voters. Sadly, they might have just thought the other guy was cuter. Pretty lame, I know. Adam was vastly more talented imo, but there it is.

[Jennicut]

17. Adam is way cuter then Kris. Preteens are so dumb.

But seriously, Kris is a nice guy but so dull that my husband and I would fall asleep watching him. I think Kris got some of Danny's fans and middle America was not into Adam as he was just too different for them in his performances and probably because he was gay. I even liked Danny and Allison over Kris (zzzzzzzzz). I think Adam will do just fine. The 4th best singer won, kind of strange but Americans also elected Bush twice.

[wyldwolf]

8. I heard he lost to the Christian vote. But he's the winner, anyway

Of the two, he'll be the star. Kris will be just another idol-winner hasbeen.

[Bread and Circus]

9. I think he lost for the same reasons Bo Bice lost and...

that's because when they say "This...is...American Idol" they really mean "This...is...American Pop Idol". In other words, this is a pop show about pop music first and foremost. People like Bo Bice and Adam Lambert don't fit in that box.

In my opinion, two of Idol's greatest vocal talents (among others) were/are Bice and Lambert. Both went very far on their vocal merit alone despite really being out of the mainstream. Bice is a throwback to throaty baritones of the Southern Rock and Blues in the 70's and Adam Lambert hits vocal constructs in Glam and Euro-metal. His "screaming" vocal ornamentation that he performs at high registers is very reminiscent of Rob Halford of Judas Priest. Halford is an iconic Heavy Metal singer in a foundational heavy metal band.

But what might be good for interesting and dramatic singing isn't necessarily palatable enough for a broad enough range of audience.

Kris Allen is "okay" but very forgettable, like most American Idol Winners and runner ups. He's a nice guy who did the songs he was handed ably and pleasantly. There was nothing offensive about how he presented the material, even though he has a very limited vocal range.

It's no mystery that on vocal dynamics, resonance, and tone, he was outclassed by Lambert. Lambert was the better singer technically if you could actually measure that (I don't think you can but...). But on the other hand, Lambert was very eccentric in how he presented the material which narrowed his base of people voting for him.

When Gokey (the other able but boring, safe, we've-heard-it-before singer) left, this essentially consolidated the milquetoast vote for Allen and he won.

Were some people averse to Lambert because of his Gay orientation? Sure. But I bet a lot, if not most, of those kinds of more conservative folks wouldn't really like his flamboyant singing even if they had not known about his preferences.

Frankly, Adam was and is my favorite singer of AI this season and one of my top 5 for the whole series (Lambert, Bice, Fantasia, edgy-version of Kelly Clarkson, David Cook) and if I had to boil it down to top 3 it would be Lambert, Bice, and Fantasia. But then again, I'm a metal and hard rock fan. Most people, especially people who watch idol, aren't.

Furthermore, the music industry is really ruled by kids, teens, and young adults that actually buy music and Lambert is just not "where it's at" in the overall popular sense right now. That he went so far is just a testament to his pure talent.

Had I been his coach during the season, I would have told him to balance his high registers with his low registers. He has a beautiful chest voice. Also, I would have told him to stop screaming altogether because it's irritating to a lot of ears, including mine, and I'm a huge fan.

When I asked my office manager what she thought about the finale, she said simply "I liked Adam Lambert, he was the better singer but when he did his screaming thing it made me want to shut my TV off".

[Kahuna]

11. One-note Bo, in the same breath as Adam Lambert?????

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

27. I LOVED my Beardy Growly Bear Bo, but Adam is sooooo much better

Adam and Chris Daughtry are probably THE must talented people to ever be on AI.

[Kahuna]

38. Bo has no range at all. Yes, he sounds good within the 2 or 3 notes

he can navigate. When he was on Idol during S5 to sing that awful song from his CD, he was straining like crazy to sing his own song. BTW, Constantine rawks!

[Bread and Circus]

42. Bo Bice has perfect pitch. Watch his a capella performance. If you think he's a "one note"

singer then I guess that's your loss.

[Kahuna]

50. I've already heard what copy-cat, bar singer Bo has to offer in the

70s when it was done originally. Nothing original about that guy. A capella-three-note performance or not. Yes, he has a strong voice. It's just not very flexible or original. Sorry.

[Bread and Circus]

66. everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

You are confusing your opinion with facts. Sorry.

Now, if you want to be fair (you don't) and objective (you won't) go back and listen to all of Bice's performances. He has about a 2 octave natural range, give or take. An octave is 12 semitones and thus 2 octaves are 24 semitones. That's 24 notes and all the quarter tones and eighth tones in between as he bends and runs. Your "two or three note" theory just doesn't hew to the facts. Sorry.

If you want to say "but Adam has a 'four octave' (I'm not sure it's even that much) range and Bo Bice only has about 2", then that's probably reasonable to say and probably more true. But does that make one a better singer than another?

Yes? No?

I'd argue no, because there's also the matter of taste and tone, not to mention vocal ornamentation.

This is what makes very limited range singers (like James Taylor) some of the very best singers of all time (in terms of popular modern western music). On a technical level, they live in one or two octaves. However, it's "HOW" they sound aside from pitch alone that makes them connect.

You can say "I don't like Bo Bice, I think he's a copy cat 70's wanna be". That's a fair criticism and a well entitled opinion. But all this "he only knows two notes" is hogwash.

I sing and play guitar and I have NO natural talent. However, I can cover 2 1/2 octaves easily. It's just kind of stupid to say someone like Bo Bice, who has perfect pitch, to say he's somehow less qualified than hacks like me.

[LostinVA]

103. He does have perfect pitch -- that Badlands song gave me chills

[joshcryer]

140. What a substantative post you made.

Will read again.

[wyldwolf]

14. does that explain why David Cook won?

[Bread and Circus]

39. Yeah...he's pretty standard "not-quite-hard rock" faire. Mainstream enough to appeal broadly.

[WillowTree]

85. Exact;y.

[joshcryer]

141. This is a great analysis, and it's pretty much spot on. American Idol is American Pop Image Idol.

[Ready4Change]

10. I think, to a point, that Idol is fixed.

Idol is about selling records and concert tickets. Adam didn't have to win. He was a star pretty much right from the start.

Kris, on the other hand, is more forgettable. I mean he's ok, but when it comes time to draw people into concerts he NEEDS that '2009 American Idol' title.

So, by having Kris win, the Idol machine has 2 stars, instead of one. I don't think it has anything to do with orientation. It's about maximizing economic potential.

[Patsy Stone]

12. You're right, it does matter.

You're also right that, sadly, we will never know the true answer.

Speaking only from my perspective, I'll tell you what I saw. I work in the music/video distribution business. Luckily, it's a forward thinking company with progressive thoughts on partner benefits and equality in the work place. Most of the Director and VP positions in my company are held by openly gay men and women.

The many (many) people in my office who discussed AI every week, gay and straight, seemed to develop a dislike for Adam not because of his orientation, but because they saw him as a one-trick pony, screaming every song on the top of his lungs, except for his version of Mad World which was a rip off of the Gary Jules' version from Donnie Darko.

The judges (maybe to his detriment) clearly tried to steer the votes towards Adam (there's no way Kara didn't write that last song specifically for him) so we also had a faction that voted for Kris just because they didn't like the favoritism so they voted for the underdog.

[Jennicut]

20. Who knows who Kara wrote that song for...it was awful. Not Adam's or Kris's style at all.

Adam, Danny and Allison all had better voices then Kris. But I hear stuff like Kris on the radio all the time. Its just so dull.

[Patsy Stone]

32. That song blew

But when Kara thanked Adam for giving her "that moment" with the song she wrote, and then sheepishly admitted the song was the wrong key for Kris, it seemed obvious to me they felt Adam would win and it would be his song. Of the two, Adam was clearly more of a power ballad singer; it was way above Kris' vocal range. In fact, the second night they brought it down a key and Kris sounded quite good with it.

Kris' voice isn't bad, and I thought he was more musical than Adam. He also was more varied, playing several instruments and arranging songs for himself and others. My biggest criticism is that Kris should have realized that song was too high and done something about it the first time.

You're right, though. American Idol isn't necessarily about finding the best singer, no matter what they say. It's about finding the person who will sell the most albums.

I, personally, always enjoy it when the losers do better than the winners. It shows me that no matter what the outcome of the voting is, America buys what it likes. Look at Chris Daughtry and his Grammys, or Clay Aiken and that icky Constantine Maroulis (nominated for a Tony) and their broadway careers, or Jennifer Hudson and her Oscar.

Adam will have a great career, and I look forward to seeing what he'll do. Part of me also thinks that without AI Kris wouldn't have had a chance to be discovered whereas Adam already has a career and an agent and would have had a great future without it.

Lastly, as I have seen from seasons past, many of the top ten get record deals, even if they don't deserve them (Bucky Covington and Phil Stacey anyone?). Thankfully, (or, sadly) winning AI isn't the last word on that.

[Jennicut]

43. I do think Kris needed AI. I also like him as a person.

Adam and Kris were roommates and got along very well. I just preferred the power singers to Kris I guess.
At least Kara made up for the song by proving she can sing. LOL.

[Patsy Stone]

46. Kara's moment in the finale was the best thing in the whole damn season.

:rofl:

[Red State Rebel]

15. Maybe, but probably not for the reason you are thinking.....

I've read alot about this and at the risk of getting flamed, I'm going to offer my opinion on this.

American Idol votes are mostly cast by silly, giggly pre-teen and teenage girls. They blog about Idol and chat about it with their bff's, etc. and make repeated phone call votes for their favorites.
What drives this mania? Plain and simple - the Idol boys are "dreamy"...crushes...these little girls are in "love"!!

When it came down to the final two and one of those two is publicly known to be gay, who are the little girls going to vote for?? That's right, the straight boy. Even at 12 you can easily figure out it's not worth wasting your time crushing on a gay guy.

They didn't do this because they are homophbic or because they think one sings better than the other, tho there is a significant difference in style between the two, they did it because of their own childish fantasies. Just like I would have voted for Mickey Dolenz when I was that age :)

When they say America votes on this, I honestly think they mean America's 12-16 year old girls vote on this.

[LostinVA]

28. I agree to a point, except the straight guy is very publicly and happily married

[graywarrior]

16. My homophobic born again sister wanted him to win

She is currently in a depression because he didn't. That's all I know. Other than that I am clueless about American Idol.

[BeFree]

18. Another conspiracy theory?

Shouldn't this be archived/gone missing/moved to the dungeon?

All this chatter about some false idol on DU is perplexing. I guess its a way to ignore the real truths instead of taking xanax?

[dsc]

19. I guess you found the words I don't know if he lost too hard to read

There clearly were campaigns to deny Adam votes based on sexual orientation. That isn't a conspiracy theory, it is a fact. Now, what we don't know is if that campaign is what cost him the job.

[BeFree]

21. It was a joke

I was making fun of your thread. I mean, gosh, it is so important this false idol stuff. Eh?

[dsc]

22. so false posts are OK when they are jokes

Ok then.

[johnnie]

23. You don't get it

It's not about AI

[LostinVA]

25. Ant-gay bigotry isn't "fun," especially when it's organized

I really don't understand why you're mocking this.

[Bluebear]

113. Hahaha

:eyes:

[WillowTree]

87. And there were about an equal number...

....of campaigns to vote FOR Lambert just because of his sexual orientation. Personally, I find both positions to be shallow and hypocritical. But that's just me.

[dsc]

89. no there weren't that is a total and complete lie

There were campaigns that told people to listen to both singers and vote for him because he was better, not because he was gay. You are just plain, flat out, gold carat lieing.

[KittyWampus]

26. Oh GROW UP. He lost because 10's of thousands of teenage girls hit redial for Kris

[dsc]

29. and you know this, for an absolute certainty how?

Have you interviewed all the voters? Do the young people's cell phones have a special way of voting? And do you know they didn't vote against him for being gay as opposed to for Kris? I admit I don't know, but you claim you do, so I am asking how you know.

[LostinVA]

31. Yes, DSC, grow up and quit being a whiny homosexual

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

34. Again, you provide another perfect example. You don't help the cause of gay equality

here.

But if it makes you feel good, when it comes to Adam Lambert losing to the kiddie's preferred choice Kris, go ahead and play victim.

And just for the record, I've seen several threads on several fora ripping Danny for being Christian.

[dsc]

37. am I ever going to get an answer to how you know for a certainty

that your theory is correct? Or are you just going to continue to post crap?

[Honeycombe8]

146. I presume the show has totals to show who got how many votes?

If someone votes for one or the other because of any reason whatsoever, that is valid, right? For instance, if I just don't like the looks of one of them, I might vote for the other. Who cares? Maybe they think he wore too much eyeliner? Maybe the audience preferred the guy with the quieter talent, less loud and showy? They were both talented.

Paranoia - thinking others are after you, when there is no evidence that they are.

[dsc]

153. I am not asking for proof the other guy got more votes

I am asking for, and still haven't got, proof that I am wrong (or more accurately since I don't say he lost because he was gay) that Adam didn't lose because he is gay. That poster said that it was a fact, not his opinion, but a fact that Adam didn't lose because he is gay. I asked for the evidence. I am still waiting, gee what a shock.

[ruggerson]

40. why are you so determined to belittle this discussion?

[Forkboy]

69. "You don't help the cause of gay equality here."

Nor do you.

Let me ask, if a homosexual annoys you, does that make it harder for you to support gay rights?

If it doesn't affect you, how do you know LostinVA is hurting the cause?

If it does affect you and makes you less inclined to support gay rights, what does that say about you that you can be swayed from doing what's right by an anonymous poster online?

[Bluebear]

120. You don't help the cause of gay equality either.

[Lyric]

155. It's sickening to me when people here, at DU, use the "YOU DON'T HELP THE GAY CAUSE!" argument.

As if we're all professional PR people, supposed to "represent" all gay people in the goddamned universe. We're supposed to subvert our personalities as PEOPLE and LIVE THE GAY 24-7 so that all the nice, pretty, sweet straight people will deign to recognize our rights. We can't be human, or individuals, or deviate from The Official Gay Handbook in ANY fucking way, or else privileged people like YOU will throw out that god-awful fucking line.

I had a nice, long talk about EXACTLY this about a week ago with my friend Bree, who's a lovely young black lady who knows ALL about this shit. Her family is originally from Delaware, but they moved to Alabama for four years so her brother could play football there, and then moved up HERE for a university job that her Dad got. I was telling her how sick to death I am of hearing that kind of crap from stupid locals every time our GLBT student group holds an event. For example, we had a "mock wedding" on campus a month and a half or so ago in which gay and lesbian couples went through faux marriage ceremonies in crazy, awesome purple dresses and tuxes, and got lectured by a couple of snotty right-wing idiots--"You know, you don't do your 'cause' any good by mocking REAL marriages like this." It burned me up to hear that. Bree said that she's heard the same damned thing a thousand times in regard to the stuff that she and her brothers like to wear, the music they listen to, the way that they talk, the opinions that they have, everything. "You're not helping yourself by wearing/speaking/acting like that." We understood each other PERFECTLY in that moment. There are a handful of people who try and divide minority communities against each other with the who-suffered-more gameshow shit, but there are a LOT of us out here who recognize the parallel pain that we suffer.

If there are people here at DU who are stupid enough to decide their positions on CIVIL RIGHTS based on a few select members of said group that they either don't like, disapprove of, or disagree with, then they aren't worth interacting with, PERIOD.

If you want to make an argument, fine, make it. Frankly I don't see anything unusual or wrong about a member of an oppressed minority wondering if discrimination and/or bigotry played a part in a loss by a fellow member--your "OH GROW UP!" bullshit was about a vicious and insensitive as it gets. Whatever--if that's your opinion, say it loud and let everyone see you for what you really are. But don't treat gay people like we're all supposed to be walking, talking advertisements for equality, and expect to not be called on it. It's bullshit, it's hurtful, and it continues a minority-negative mindset that oppressed people are supposed to "earn" their rights by impressing the tyrants in power, rather than being ENTITLED to them regardless of what anyone else thinks.

As for the "play victim" shit--that is NOTHING but a petty, vicious, nasty personal hate attack on a genuinely oppressed member of a minority from a member of the privileged majority, and as such, it has NO place on this website. You wouldn't DARE say that about a racial minority who expressed similar concerns. How disgusting.

:eyes:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. Excellent post

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

157. Please let me know how you help the cause of gay equality

Because I haven't exactly seen you doing anything for it.

[KitchenWitch]

159. How absolutely progressive of you.

Have you had any rights withheld from you because of who you are???

Didn't think so.

[Kahuna]

52. While it's true Kris had the tween vote, that vote didn't propel Archuleta to the

win. Cooke beat Archuleta by 12 million votes.

[wisteria]

74. Who was hiding the fact that he is married. I suppose the little girls would of been less

interested then.

[WillowTree]

91. He was never "hiding the fact that he was married".

If you'd been watching the show, in one of his profiles very early in the season they showed video clips of him with his wife. Cowell even jokingly said afterward that he might have been better off if he's "kept his wife under wraps" awhile longer, drawing even more attention to the fact that he's married. Apparently that didn't keep the "little girls" from voting for him.

But you obviously missed that. Which would lead me to believe that you weren't at all interested in the competition, only in seeing the guy who fits with your agenda win.

[Ohio Joe]

90. You completely miss the point

It is not about who won AI. It is about the fact that anyone that is not hetero always has to second guess weather or not things happen to them because of their sexual orientation. Being straight, I never worry about anything bad happening to me because of it. The same is most definitely not true for anyone that is not hetero.

[Stuckinthebush]

108. Ding Ding

We have a winner!

[Bluebear]

114. According to you.

[Stuckinthebush]

138. Indeed

as the father of three young girls who have young girl friends not one of them ever mentioned Adams sexuality as their reason for dialing the phone 1000 times for that "cute boy" Kris.

I'd like to think that my experience in the deep South with pre teen and teenage girls in this manner trumps speculation.

[NashVegas]

30. If True, Then It's Because The Media Made It An Issue

Really pisses me off.

What do they make of the UK show,"Any Dream Will Do?"

editing to add, because if it's true that young teen females were the primary voters, Kitty does have a point, no matter how obnoxious:

Tween female crushes sell a lot of records, movie tickets, posters, magazines, and more (so do gay male Tweens, but the numbers are less). There's no way I'd harsh on a 12 year girl for choosing a *perceived* straight male, to pin a fantasy on, over an outie.

[johnnie]

33. I don't think he lost because he is gay

He was in the bottom three well before the "campaign" against him started. I asked my 14 year old nephew if the girls in his school didn't like Adam because he is gay and he said they don't give a crap. Kids today are a lot more tolerant than we give them credit for.

Teen idols are still the same as they have ever been. Take for example Frank Sinatra and Mario Lanza. They were both singing in the late 40s and early 50s and Sinatra did a lot better with the little girls. Lanza's voice was much better then Sinatra's, but the teens thought Sinatra was dreamy.

I'm sure some votes were cast against Adam because of his sexuality, but there were 100 million or so votes and that's typical (maybe a bit more) for the voting. The majority of those votes were the young girls that vote every year.

[book_worm]

36. I honestly don't think his assumed sexuality had anything to do with it...

I think many people were voting against the person who was the judges pet. There is a tendency for many people to vote for the underdog. Also, let's face it. Danny Gokey and the ultimate winner Kris, were not as talented as Adam, but they had lots of fans. I see Danny G's fans voting overwhelmingly for Kris after he is eliminated basically for the reason I gave--a vote against the front runner, the person Simon publicly said many times was going to win.

But losing AI isn't a career set back. Lots of runner ups have done well, and Adam will do better than all of them in my opinion.

[Stump]

41. I believe that is exactly why he lost...

You should hear the water-cooler talk in the south. I really don't think anyone can actually believe Kris Allen is a better singer than Adam. Hell, even Kris Allen said so. I hope Adam hits it major big time.

[Celebration]

44. Arkansas

Californians are probably more laid back about voting. The state of Arkansas got pretty excited about Kris, and probably voted in huge numbers. I honestly think they would have done the same thing if Kris had been gay. Adam got my vote, but just barely. I really like Kris, too.

You might as well ask, "Did Kris win because he played two instruments, guitar and piano, while Adam only sang? Is this fair, given that it is a singing contest?"

Kris would never have gotten to the top two, but for his wonderful renditions on the two instruments. Fair or not, that gave him a lot of votes, probably more than the Christian/straight stuff, which probably also played a factor.

[Darth_Kitten]

45. It doesn't matter because in THIS economy he has a great career ahead of him...

let's not shed any tears about the runner-up in a contest that just really doesn't matter in the long run. ;)

[JimGinPA]

49. I Have To Admit I'm Not A Big 'Idol' Fan Myself, But My Wife Watches It...

I've seen (or heard from the next room) most of the shows this season. It's about popularity, not musical talent. Either of the two Black girls, the Indian kid, the little blonde girl, the Puerto Rican kid, the little red-headed girl or the guy that came in third had better singing voices and more talent than the guy that actually won. To me the only person the guy who won should have come in ahead of was the guy who wore the goofy straw hat all the time.

[tomreedtoon]

53. He lost because he went on "American Idol."

People who want to exercise their talent work in bars, clubs, anyplace where they let you work. People with delusions of fairness and honor go on American Idol and let jerks like Simon Cowell and Ramsay Gordon crap all over them.

There are no shortcuts to fame, and to go on a program that's the equivalent of an emotional slaughterhouse is suicide. The guy lost the day he signed that contract.

[rcrush]

65. +1

American Idol is the fast track to selling your soul for a music contract these days. ANYONE CAN DO IT!

[Mister Ed]

55. The point is that straights don't have to live with this question.

Many years ago, I was out in the yard chatting with my Lesbian back-fence neighbors who had just moved in. We talked and talked, and they only mentioned in passing that a brick had come through their picture window a few nights after they moved in. They said they had wondered whether it was random vandalism, or whether they were targeted for being gay. They had chosen to believe it was random vandalism.

That lit up the dim little 15-watt light bulb over my head. Ohhh. So they have to carry the burden of this question with them every day. Every day, through everything they do. If the brick had come through my window instead, I wouldn't have had to wonder. I would have known it was random vandalism.

The weight of that burdensome question seems unbearable to me, and yet it's probably the least of the weights this society places upon its non-straight or non-white members.

[Patsy Stone]

58. So straight Jews don't live with the questions of prejudices based on anti-semitism?

And straight African-Americans don't live with prejudices based on questions of racism?

[Mister Ed]

61. Of course they do.

I think I covered African-Americans with the phrase "non-white". Guess I should have explicitly listed Jews as well.

I'm sorry if I I failed to provide an exhaustive list of all unfairly burdened minorities in America. I would brush off your post as nit-picking, but you carry weight with me because I've read and admired your posts for years. Perhaps it's my writing and communication skills that are at fault.

[Patsy Stone]

63. I appreciate your clarification,

and a detailed list wasn't necessary. :)

It was the "straights don't ever have to question why violence happens to them" absolutism I took issue with. My point is simply that bigoted violence affects both gays and straights, because people's blind hate and ignorance knows no bounds.

p.s. I like your posts, too. :thumbsup:

[QC]

64. Thank you!

You have said it perfectly!

[nichomachus]

57. All I know is what I've read

I've never watched AI -- not even for a second -- ever, so I don't have a dog in this hunt. But I remember reading weeks ago how the Christians were organizing a ballot stuffing against the gay guy -- and it wasn't just teeny boppers hitting redial. It was the adults trying to earn brownie points with Jesus.

No matter. Winning Idol is just a flash in the pan. The winner, if he's as bland as everyone said, will be a Trivial Pursuit answer a year from now. Concert promoters and recording industry execs are going to put their money behind the person with talent. They're not going to go out on a limb for a second-rate performer who won because of a campaign by a pressure group.

But this all goes to show that this sort of show is really really stupid.

[Kahuna]

60. Adam has the talent to fill stadiums. I don't see that with Kris, though

I do like him. He'll be good for radio play.

[nichomachus]

62. And that's the real question

Would you -- or anyone -- pay $50 and up to watch Kris for an hour and a half? As I indicated, I don't know, but that is the question you have to ask. Would you drive two hours to see Kris in a show?

In the end, it's all about the money and what people are willing to pay. The thing with a show like Idol (from what I know) is that these people come out and sing a song (maybe more????). One song is easy. Can they keep it up for an hour and a half without people looking at their watches?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

68. True about the Idol winners...I've seen more of Clay Aiken than I have of Ruben Studdard

[LostinVA]

76. And Katharine McPhee has gotten good reviews and it still recording CDs, etc.

Taylor Hicks was dropped like a hot potato.

And, where is Chris Daughtry from that season? Number 1 CD in the country, even above U2 (his forst CD). Kellie Pickler, also from teh same season? Doing very well, in both entertainment and music. Elliott Yamin? Making a living from music with good reviews.

I hope and suspect that Adam and Allison will do very well, and even that poser Danny Gokey will have a decent Gospel career.

[DatManFromNawlins]

137. Studdard's lack of sales have to do with...

... him being pigeon holed into a genre that he is not suited to sing in. The dude needs to be an R&B ballad singer, because that's where his strength is. It isn't in catchy pop tunes.

[wisteria]

70. I agree. And, Lambert sure didn't lose because he was less talented than Allen. n/t

[Bjorn Against]

79. I don't know what the margin between the two contestants was, but if it was a small margin...

Then he lost for no other reason than the fact that he was gay. There is no doubt that there were many people who did vote against him for no other reason than that he was gay, and if it was a small margin these would be the people who pushed Kris over the edge. If it was a larger margin of victory for Kris then the teen girls may have done it, but I don't think anyone can realistically deny that there are at least some people who would vote against Adam for no other reason than the fact that he is gay.

I can't stand American Idol, and Adam is the only reason I ever watched the show. I didn't watch in previous seasons, and now that he is gone I am unlikely to watch in future seasons. While I am disgusted by the fact that he may have lost for no other reason than that he is gay however, I am glad he lost and I actually think he is glad as well. For him to be required to sign a contract with American Idol and have to follow their rules on what he can perform would severely limit him. Now he is not tied to a contract, and because so many labels would love to sign him he will be able to set his own rules and have much more creative freedom. He has already said he wants to "push some buttons and open some minds" with his music, and there is no way in hell that the American Idol producers would allow him to push any buttons. I have a feeling that the bigots are going to regret voting against him when they see what he does with the music that is made under his own terms, I have a feeling that he will push some buttons and make some fundie heads explode and it is going to be a great thing to witness.

[KamaAina]

80. Remember, Clay Aiken lost Idol, too

to Ruben Studdard.

Of course, he hadn't come out yet, so there's no way anyone could possibly have known that he was gay. :sarcasm:

[bluedawg12]

82. HuffPo: "backstabbery wins"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-david/adam-lambert-loses-homoph_b_206154.html

If the contestants had zero backstory, Lambert would have decimated the competition. Instead, Allen's Christianity, church roots and corn-fed wife were exploited, as were Lambert's musical theatre roots (i.e. his 'theatre fag' history). He didn't say a word about his sexuality, but didn't need to. For that we had the Internet, zapping anyone's private photo library to the world, so photos of Lambert swapping saliva with a guy went viral, as well as a lot of his very strange yet riveting LA cabaret performances, turning off the homophobic majority.

Yes, a majority of the country is homophobic. If it weren't, gays would have had their rights back in the 90s when the Europeans got them. We wouldn't have a majority of states with a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. We wouldn't be fighting for even rudimentary domestic partnership laws in some cities and states. We wouldn't have anti-gay imbeciles like Maggie Gallagher, Peter LaBarbera, Matt Barber or the "God Hates Fags" morons getting publicity. Yep, if American weren't homophobic, Lambert would be waving to the crowds from a convertible.

<snip>

I'm sorry a simple musical theatre actor from California and a simple guitar strummer from Arkansas have to bear this cultural burden, but there it is. Despite Allen's pleading that "It's about music, it's not about religion and all that kind of stuff," it is indeed about religion and all that kind of stuff. Danny Gokey's pastor Twittered, "We need a believer to represent." Even Rev. Ted Haggard, the most frightened homosexual in America, Twittered that he wanted Allen to win. A Lambert win would have scared the bejeezus out of him.

<snip>
Even Kris Allen, at the end, said, "Adam deserves this. I'm sorry." It's Allen who will have to endure the publicity of how it really should have been Lambert up there. He's a nice guy and doesn't deserve it. He should enjoy his victory. But he was competing against Goliath, and these things happen. David himself would have had to deal with the fallout.

[WillowTree]

84. These American Idol conspiracy threads break me up.

First of all, they're virtually all started by people who I'd be willing to bet never gave a fig about AI until the Adam Lambert/gay issue hit the scene and wouldn't have given a fig about Lambert if he wasn't gay.

Secondly, if those who are all hot 'n bothered about Lambert's loss were actually AI fans who weren't interested in the outcome of this year's voting mostly to "strike a blow for gay rights", they'd be aware that practically every year the fans of the guy/girl who winds up in second place whine and moan about how it's a conspiracy. Last year it was that David Archuleta lost because he's a Mormon. (If he'd won, the Cook supporters would have been whining that he'd lost because of the "teeny-bopper vote", because Cook was "obviously the better performer".) Or Carrie Underwood only won because she's a pretty, petite blond girl. Or Ruben Studdard only won because he's black. It all goes back to the fact that everyone seems to be under the impression that their own taste in whatever is so exalted as to require reflection by everyone else and when it isn't, it must be some kind of a plot.

Was there a contingent of anti-gay voters this year? I'd bet on it. Was the "I don't give a shit about American Idol but I'm voting for Adam Lambert because we NEED an openly gay guy to win this mediocre, white bread competition" voting block about the same size? I'd put an equal amount of money on that, as well. Thing is, though, that most people who watch AI and who vote for the contestants don't do so with a political agenda. They vote for who and what they like.

And then there are those who watch American Idol because they actually enjoy the show, who are generally far too middle-of-the-road to be interested in Lambert's musical genre. That would include the swoony teen-aged girls and the middle-aged women.......like me. I can recognize and appreciate Adam Lambert's talent and admire how good he is at what he does without wanting to ever have to listen to what he does again in this life. Way too screechy and hyper-dramatic for me ever. In 1966 I loved "Satisfaction" as much as anyone. Still do, but the Stones version. What Adam Lambert did to it this year on Idol made my ears bleed. I loved him when he was being interviewed or in the exchanges with the "judges" after his performances. Never did see a guy who had a more winning smile or seemed more genuine or comfortable in his own skin. But too often his aspect and facial expressions when he was singing came across as dark and almost brooding which I don't find to be entertaining.

Truth be told, going into this season of the show I was all about Lil Rounds. If I'd been trying I wouldn't have been able to find anything not to love about her. Sadly, as good as she was in the beginning, she never lived up to her potential and wound up getting voted off. Such is life. After that point, the only one left that I cared about at all as a performer FOR MY TASTE IN MUSIC was Kris, and I was pleased as punch to vote for him when the time came for no other reason than because I like to listen to him sing. And I will guar-un-damn-tee you that that was the case with the vast majority of the people who voted for him.

Look, American Idol did more for Adam Lambert than he ever dreamed it would. Hell, Queen.......QUEEN for God's sake.......is considering making him their front man once the Idol summer tour is over. And he'll be great in that spot if it happens. But regardless, he's marching on to what will undoubtedly be a terrific career. One other thing I'd be willing to bet on is that the American Idol experience worked out exactly the way Adam Lambert would have scripted it if he could. He got more exposure than he possibly could have any other way at this point in his career and by Labor Day he'll be able to take advantage of opportunities that he may never have had any other way unencumbered by a five-year contract with Clive Davis, who could never hope to (and doesn't care to) understand his genre. I couldn't be more pleased for him.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's how most of the other people who voted for Kris Allen feel about him, too. Sometimes it just works out that more people don't like the same things that you do. Get over it. You do yourself and your cause no favors with this kind of whining because it pushes more people away than it draws to you, be it this issue or another. And that's a fact.

[dsc]

86. I take it the I don't know if he lost because he is gay was to damn hard for you to bother to read

[anigbrowl]

149. It's unknowable. You might as well ask if he made it to 2nd place because he was gay.

Like if he was just some straight rocker with a great voice, would he have done as well as he did? Impossible to say either way. I wouldn't worry about it, he looks set for a rewarding career anyway.

[ohheckyeah]

93. Way to miss the whole point of the post. n/t

[LostInAnomie]

107. I wish I could recommend posts.

You perfectly summed up this whole "controversy" in the first four paragraphs.

[Bluebear]

116. All those words to completely miss the point of the OP

[prayin4rain]

129. I think it's silly too

The thing Kris had going for him was the whole underdog thing. Adam is probably more talented than Kris but both are good and likable. I actually liked Kris' version of the extremely cheesy song that they both had to sing. Adam is better but people love the underdog and it has ALWAYS been a problem on Idol that the person that everyone assumes everyone else is voting for... doesn't end up with enough votes. Daughtry got voted off in a shocker... and not because he is gay. Same thing with Michael Johns... it notoriously happens on that show every single season.... but this year it happened because America is homophobic apparently. Silly.

On edit: oh yeah and the main point of the post.... everyone wonders what it was about them that made them not win. Is it because I am too fat, too ugly, too black, too gay, too socially awkard, too short... whatever.

[ohheckyeah]

88. I think it had a lot to do with his losing.

This thread has gone off on many different directions that are totally irrelevant to your OP, so back to the subject.

I've spent a good bit of time reading articles and theories about why he lost and there were many different reasons but I do think the gay issue was for some voters the prevailing issue. I'm not sure how many but it is definitely an issue.

And you are correct. A straight person wouldn't have to question whether or not they lost because of their straightness.

Adam has been asked the question of whether or not his perceived sexuality was the reason he lost and he answered that he thought it was more that he was just so different from past American Idol contestants. But, he has refused to discuss his sexuality in the past so that is not surprising.

If you look at You Tube just about every Adam Lambert video has comments about him being gay, something that should never have been an issue. I don't know what it will take for the people in this country to grow up and get over their homophobic attitudes.

I'm just so sorry that gays in this country have to live with the bigoted attitudes of far too many people but hopefully it is changing, albeit slowly. As a straight person who is sympathetic to the gay community I make it my habit to call out anyone who displays their homophobia in my presence.

[WillowTree]

95. Perhaps.

But my guess is that Adam Lambert doesn't give a damn why people did or didn't vote for him. I doubt that he'll even give that a first, let alone a second thought. He's far too comfy with who he is and what he does to have to make a political brouhaha out of everything. Do you honestly think that he went on the show in the first place to advance the LGBT agend or to advance his career?

He came out of it exactly where he wanted to be in the end, maybe even better, and did exactly what he set out to do. Success fo the very talented guy who just happens to be gay!! Why take even a little bit of that away from him by making it about what YOU (the collective "YOU") want than about him achieving what HE was trying to accomplish?

[ohheckyeah]

106. You sure seem to think you know an awful lot about

what Adam Lambert thinks or feels.

I didn't say or insinuate he was interested in advancing a LGBT agenda, now did I? I stated that he has not made an issue of this. I think once again you missed the main point of the OP and you damn sure are reading a lot into what I wrote that just isn't there. I'm not trying to achieve a damn thing - I was merely giving an opinion.

Aren't discussion boards for discussion?

[ruggerson]

127. You seem to know a lot about the "gay agenda"

(which, if you didn't know, is a major rightwing fundamentalist buzz phrase)

[emilyg]

92. Don't watch Idol - just

not important to me.

[bridgit]

94. My experience is that it's all part of 'life on the catwalk'...

From there you can hear the crying, the whispers, gasps, laughter, the applause, booing, heckling, the cat-calls, etc (add your own). In recent memory we've had someone step up as the face of same sex marriage; the name on that face is: Perez Hilton. I appreciate your post but in a sense what's being referred to is: retribution. A one-way, issue driven retribution. Good while traveling in one direction, away; very bad when coming back at us.

You've suggested that Lambert lost "because he is gay". I say he stepped onto a stage with a phone-in voting system larger than the issue, that is itself able to dispense expressed retributions through the anonymous opinions held in a mobile touch tone phone. Or until the gravity contained here is absorbed,

'It matters if that ignorant, bubble-headed pageant chick wins because she's a mouthy dumb-dumb. It just does.'

Extreme? Not really; not in a world where sincere beliefs are in open conflict with the insincere on a daily basis so that I humbly submit this "substantial minority" as being mis-tagged. Were it to be otherwise there'd be no problem, right? Well there is a problem, and sometimes it is a big one. Catch it on a good day catch it on a bad day but too much of the time it bobbles, percolates round 50/50. And that is the razor's edge we step with bare feet, look...

I'm in performing arts, have been for decades. I know a theater director that ran a brilliant young hetero man off, vied for his then empty position and got it at 125K+/year. Shorted me on payroll, however, for years until my union ran an audit at the request of another theater and there it was over 17g's, I'm on structured settlement. When my union contacted him he fired me and put his partner in my position along with a salary of 45K+; the guy it was determined he was giving my payroll shortfalls too what a world, eh? So I do I understand this "they want us to literally disappear" meme, it's just some think it pertains only to them,

Could it have been Perez Hilton's archy-snay little ripple effect that raised some ire somewhere with a touch tone phone and tugged on the ole 50/50 pulling it like taffy all gooey in the wrong direction,

Or could it have been not enough people cared for Lambert the way others do

[live love laugh]

96. Don't forget American Idol is on the FOX network. I believe it.

IMHO when it comes to "the gay" at Fox the votes get thrown out the door. I especially felt this way the next dy when I heard one of the right wing radio heads saying that Adam was a "fruit".

[Mudoria]

97. I'm guessing he lost because the populace liked the other guy better..

end of story imo.

[LostinVA]

99. I'm quite sure that isn't it at all -- the "populace" liked Adam better

[Arkana]

98. Who's Adam Lambert?

[AlCzervik]

102. he was in Star Trek.

[Arkana]

104. How do you lose at Star Trek for being gay?

[AlCzervik]

105. Phasers were set on homophobe.

[Quantess]

109. Adam Lambert is going to have a bigger career than the other guy.

I only watched parts of the last 2 episodes because I was ill and there was nothing else on. I don't care about American Idol, and I only hear that someone was a contestant on the show when their songs are played on the radio.
This Adam Lambert guy can sing, and I am fully confident that he will have a successful singing career. In the grand scheme, that matters more than being #1 on American Idol.

[AlCzervik]

111. Just Like Clay Aiken, Reuben Stoddard won that year and no one really remembers him.

I only watched the first season in full and i caught a little bit of the year clay was on.

[Peacetrain]

112. I do not watch Idol that much.. but I don't remember at any time Lambert saying

he was gay.

He is a much better singer in my opinion, and I am stumped why he did not win. But seriously, just because he dresses outrageously does not denote whether he is gay or straight.

Does anyone remember Elvis.. The man was over the top in his dress, but I do not think he was gay.

The guy (can't remember names now) who plays the womanizer on How I Met Your Mother.. dresses very conservatively.. and he is not straight.

This is starting to get on my nerves. Like if you are gay or straight you can tell by the clothes you wear.

Hello

[dsc]

121. there were pictures of the man kissing men

there might be like five people on planet earth who don't assume the man is gay. This isn't some single guy who refuses to answer this is a guy who has been kissing men repeatedly and refuses to answer if he is gay.

[Peacetrain]

123. Well I did not know that..but it is still beside the point

But it still gets on my nerves that people are categorized as one thing or another by how they dress. Goths wear extreme makeup, whether straight or gay.

Cowboys wear suits, and Wall Street wears boots.. Scots wear skirts, and women warriors wear army shirts.

It is just crazy to me, that people would vote against someone because of the way he dressed, how fearful of the unknown would people have to be, to do that. It is just crazy. And yes I know there are people out there like that. Its insane.

[cboy4]

115. He lost for the same reason Brokeback Mountain didn't win

best picture and for the same reason Proposition 8 lost and ...

[Bluebear]

117. Quiet. What's the matter, didn't get your pony?

:silly:

[cboy4]

118. Don't forget my "poutrage" and don't forget I'm a PUMA and ...

:crazy:

[Bluebear]

119. And all these straight ppl in this thread who don't have to ever WORRY about the question...

did I lose this job because of who I am...jump right in with accusations of tinfoil and cracking jokes. Thank goodness this is a progrssive website!

[cboy4]

122. Yea, must be nice to be able to laugh at the misfortunate from

atop their high polo horses.

My "favorite" comment recently -- concerning teh gays kicked out of the military -- is how they can just so simply and easily re-apply to rebuild their shattered career.

Of course, homes and cars will have already been repossessed, credit will have been ruined, etc.

But just re-apply. It's as simple as that. :puke:

[sfpcjock]

124. I'd say yeah

maybe, but probably because his voice can be screechy which I find unpleasant. The rocker scream is supposed to be plaintive and primal.

[symbolman]

125. Adam was magnificent, my wife and I voted 14 times between us for him

I dubbed him The Gay Elvis the first time I saw him perform, he had the snarl, smoldering sexuality, talent, the whole package :)

I think in the end Frank Zappa nailed it when he said the Recording Industry is run by a 14 year old girl named Debbie..

They want someone nonthreatening, like all the Boy bands, and the Boring, Phony kRis fit the bill. I've been a musician for years and I've seen a Million strumming stroking out side-faced idiots like him, should be annoying people in a bar, he's a Mouse compared with Adam..

They grow guys like Kris in the Midwest like Corn..

[applegrove]

126. I think it is a shame he didn't win because he will always wonder. It feels like

he may have been abused by freepers. And singing is his dream. I think he will do well but wish he had run since he was so clearly the favourite. Just one more reason that gays and lesbians need a parade every year.. just to be able to stand tall out in public and not to have to worry for a day. I really feel sorry for the GLBT community in this political situation.

[Quantess]

128. Oh, come on. This is not sad for him. He is launching his career for fig's sake.

And to that I add, where is Fantasia Barrino? Where is Ruben Studdard?

Carrie Underwood and Jennifer Hudson and Clay Aiken all won over the masses on their own terms. Once the contestants get to the finals on American Idol, you can't feel too sorry for them.

Adam Lambert already has a huge following. He's already a star.

[Bluebear]

131. Fantasia will be touring The Color Purple and has her own show coming out on VH1 in '10

Because you asked :)

[Quantess]

132. That's good news. Good to hear she's in the game.

She is a very talented singer and performer. :)

[applegrove]

147. I really like Fantasia. I even bought her CD.

[Lorien]

130. A rW born again Southern Baptist I know wrote on Facebook recently that

the person who won "American Idol" (never seen the show so I don't know who that was) made her "proud of America for choosing him." Since EVERYTHING she writes on FB of late has a Christian/ RW message, I'm assuming that if America had voted for Lambert she would not have been "proud". Was the winner a born again right winger, or do you think her comment was aimed against Lambert?

[Ghost in the Machine]

133. No, it was just because he SUCKED....

[DatManFromNawlins]

136. You'd have an honest point

If I didn't see dozens of threads on DU and elsewhere to vote for Adam because "you just KNOW that the Christians are going to burn up the phones for Kris." As a matter of fact, I saw quite a number of threads pre-declaring that he'd lose due to homophobia just so that the OPs could then crow their displeasure, even though they did not then, nor do they now, have ANY proof to the contrary.

Adam Lambert isn't nearly as vocally talented as many people are making the guy out to be. As a matter of fact, if you take away the years of professional singing on stage that he has, he probably wouldn't have even made the finals because what truly made him different wasn't his sexuality or his guy liner or his fingernails, it was the fact that he was already a polished entertainer going up against some people who were either amateurs or singing in garage bands. His singing, quite often, was secondary to the act that he performed on stage.


Here are facts:

(1) We know that Lambert lost because he received less votes than Allen
(2) We know that Allen's base (Arkansas, not Christian votes) accounted for 38% of the vote
(3) We know that you have no proof that Lambert lost because of homophobia


If you're going to wander through life, declaring things to be unfair when you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your viewpoint, it'll be a long and bumpy road ahead of you.

[joshcryer]

139. Ask Clay Akin.

His answer, not really.

Me, maybe a tiny bit.

Fortunately "that" crowd is becoming a minority slowly but surely.

[dsc]

150. actions speak louder than words

clearly he believed that being gay would damage him as he lied about it repeatedly while and after competing.

[knitter4democracy]

142. All of my daughter's friends were heartbroken. They liked Adam.

I watched a bit of the finale with her (we'd never watched it, but it was a big deal at school, so I let her see some), and Adam could sing. The other guy couldn't. No wonder my almost 9 y.o. wanted Adam to win. With the way the kids at the elementary were talking about it, I figured Adam would win. I was surprised but not all that surprised--I think Adam lost because he was gay. It wasn't because he wasn't cute (he is) or because he couldn't sing (he can). It was because he offended a large group of people just for breathing.

[CBR]

143. I think it played a role but why is everyone talking about

Ruben on this thread. He was a big teddy bear, nice guy -- that is why he won. He certainly did not have a demographic advantage.

[krabigirl]

144. Good post.

[LWolf]

145. Of course it does.

I don't know Lambert or Idol, since I've never watched it.

I know this, though: humanity seems to gravitate towards suspicion and scapegoating of those who are "different" in any way.

Is it the competition between our forebears over territory and resources, somehow hardwired into our genes? Is it something else? I don't know, but people seem to NEED an enemy, someone to hate, someone to bully, someone to be a scapegoat. Nationality, ethnicity, race, culture, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, religious affiliation, trade or profession, hobby, ...there are as many ways to group up and "hate" those different as there are people.

I have no doubt that you would not be hired in my district if there were suspicion that you were gay. While there are open-minded people here, this community is still a mainly rural, homogenous white, christian, and closeted population.

[GA_ArmyVet]

148. Speaking for a straight couple

my wife and I wanted Adam to win...Because we both thought he was better. Singing has nothing to doing with who you have sex with.
Odd though, I thought he was gay, my wife thinks he is straight.

[Peggy Day]

151. I can only answer what I personally like. I didn't like his screaming

but he could really belt out a tune.
When Allen sang Heartless he won me over. I watched that many times, because I like the song
http://idol-mania.com/american-idol-fan/2009/05/13/kris-allen-heartless-video/

Being gay has nothing to do with it in my opinion.
edited for better version

[Blaze Diem]

161. Different Opinions: Gokey screamed...Adam hit every note perfectly.

Rock & Roll is that way.
The Beatles were also said to be 'screaming', when they first performed 'I Want to Hold Your Hand'.

Lambert Has an incredible voice. I believe he carefully chose his Rock tunes because he wanted to direct his career in that direction.
He knows the industry well enough to know it is also difficult to gain entry to without the exposure.
He has performed Broadway Musicals and everything else available to him.
Except mega star Rock & Roll.

Perhaps Lambert simply set out to take the multimillion-worldwide-viewer exposure afforded by Am Idol and showcased his extreme talent towards the Rock & Roll venue. That's something he hasn't done yet, and he knows very well he is more than capable.

Appearing on Idol gave him an instant fan base, as well as being viewed by many well connected musicians already successful in the business.

It was a genius move, if that is the case. It worked.

[Peggy Day]

163. They said he had "international" appeal.

Maybe he doesn't have to play by idol rules now-he was good-I admit that.

[Chovexani]

158. Good post as usual, dsc

I know a lot of people love to discount AI as a stupid karaoke show, and it honestly is, but pop culture is a huge battleground for social change and always has been.

I hate it and only watched to laugh at the audition shows back when AI first started, but I started watching this season because friends linked me clips of Adam's performances and I was blown away by just how fucking cool he was. He was just so much better than that dumb ass show. The last time I got that feeling about an AI contestant was Jennifer Hudson and she didn't even make it to the final (of course, we all know what happened in the end).

Honestly, the apologists who try to say it's "merely" about a difference in musical style are missing the goddamn point. Someone on Shakesville made a salient point the other day about what that says about our culture.

Adam is about edgy glam rock, which has always been about challenging sexuality and gender expectations. Back when "bisexual chic" was in its 70s heyday, who were the poster children? Glam rockers like Bowie. Glam rock at its heart is about theatrics and hedonism and pushing boundaries. Exactly the kind of thing that scares the shit out of every Bible beating fundie. They go to sleep at night terrified their kids will come home looking like Adam dancing to "devil music". Kris' image was like the total opposite, he was the safe option that didn't rock any boats. I can't tell you how many interviews I saw that described him as a clean-cut "All-American" guy. And everyone here knows (or should) that the term "All-American" is code for corn-fed straight Christian white boy and has been for a long-assed time in this country.

This is not to say that all of Kris' fans were prudes or something, or that Kris was a bad guy, quite the contrary. He knew what was going on and has been nothing but classy the whole time. But it is really telling that there's anecdote after anecdote about people voting for Kris and not even knowing his name, they just didn't want "that freak" to win. It didn't even become about voting for the Christian, they just didn't want to let the leather-clad, eyeliner-wearing "fag" to win. And that's what depresses the shit out of me about all this, it's yet another reminder that no matter the strides we make as LGBT people there are nasty, vicious bigots who would love nothing better than to see us suffer and fail and never get the same chance to pursue our dreams and aspirations as straight people. It's just really fucking sad.

Also it is no fucking shock at all to see straight people refusing to acknowledge straight privilege, again. My thanks to those who understand what's up, the rest of y'all have some serious knapsack unpacking to do.

[Baikonour]

160. I wouldn't be worried about Adam.

Word is that he's being geared to become Queen's new singer. That's arguably bigger than anything a previous Idol contestant or winner has achieved, not necessarily counting Grammy wins.

[armyowalgreens]

162. I only watched him perform once...

But it seems as though he lost because he was fucking annoying.

[nini]

164. In theory - you are right

However, I'm not sure if American Idol is a good example for a few reasons: it's most likely fixed and stupid teeny boppers vote based on how cute they think someone is.