Honestly: What Is Driving Your Rage Over the Torture Issue?

[Mr. Ected]

Is it the fact that our nation resorted to torture in and of itself?

Is it the fact that George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Alberto Gonzales and the rest of those monsters were involved?

Is it the fact that the conservative movement defends the practice to this day?

I, for one, would be calling for the heads of anyone associated with the authorization of torture in my name, for whatever cause, and regardless of party affiliation. But here is what most conservatives think (from Jim Wooten's blog in the AJC):

"The release of the photos serve absolutely no good purpose. They have propaganda value for terrorists abroad and for the leftists in this country who have never veered from their fanatical determination to see the legacy of George W. Bush destroyed. But that’s it.

As Obama noted in announcing that his administration will try to block release of the photos, as sought by the American Civil Liberties Union, their only value is to “further inflame anti-American opinion.” The release would, furthermore, increase the risk to American troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the President.

The photos served their military investigation purposes five years ago, he said. “The individuals who were involved have been identified, and appropriate actions have been taken.”

Memo to those on the left who are determined not to let Iraq go until history records that they were right and Bush was wrong, and that yes, it was a victory for the U.S., but not a ”fair” one, this advice: Let it go. Move on."


I love how the Republicans hid their actions throughout their regime, citing national security concerns, but now that the light has shone on the egregiousness of their acts, they tell us it's time to move on.

How do we counter this nonsense? Which Democrat will step up and start disposing of these obfuscations...and don't tell me Rachel or KO or Jon Stewart. We need a LEADER to man up immediately, or else we stand to lose the issue by procrastination and indifference.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. The pained face of Mr ***** who made me promise

to lie to his wife, that he didn't suffer.

We both knew it was bullshit.

His nails and toe nails were gone

The electrical burns were deep

The lashes where also deep

So were other injuries.

That is what drives it.

The stories told to me by Mrs ***** who included the rape of her 12 year old daughter and a box where they lashed at her.

Perhaps Mr. **** who was water boarded, and then hung from his wrists for days on end... to this day he suffers the nerve damage from that experience.

I could go on.

And no I am not naive enough to believe that nations don't practice it, and I knew this country has done it in the past, just third parties. The last time around it was swept under the rug, so this time it was our assholes doing it to the other. Next time will be your kids. And yes, mark my words, will be swept under the rug. The process already started.

[Mr. Ected]

4. Your First Person Account Renders the Defenders Simply Mouthpieces

The haters could never sense the emotions that pour out of your post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. No they could never understand

but they will defend it, for the rest of their lives possibly.

[annabanana]

2. What is driving my rage? Why can't I "let it go already" ?

Because as a citizen of a democratic republic, where the people ostensibly run the government, I was unable to stop it. The betrayal of the social contract is complete, I have been used. MY government committed the most heinous crimes imaginable in my name.

[Mr. Ected]

5. How Eloquently Put.

I could use that answer to so many of my outrages over the government. Thanks.

[kentuck]

3. The criminality and the lack of accountability..

and the media playing it as if it were just another political disagreement.

[lostnotforgotten]

6. Retired Naval Officer - Trained About Our Treaties - Bush / Cheney Are Torturers

Our laws demand that they be brought to justice.

[lostnotforgotten]

7. Why Do You Work So Hard To Defend Mr. "O" Who Has now Become Complicit In The Crimes?

eom

[Mr. Ected]

10. No, Sir. It Is Far Too Early To Work "Against Obama".

Until then, I will concern my efforts with exposing those who authorized this torture and seeking to bring them to justice.

Complicity in burying the crimes is an issue that I will tackle much, much later.

[lostnotforgotten]

11. One Is Not Working Against Mr. "O" - One Is Pointing Out His Deceptions And Misdirections

eom

[Mr. Ected]

14. And Until We Fully Understand the Political Machinations Underlying His Actions

We can only speculate as to his malfeasance.

[lostnotforgotten]

15. Unlike Oneself, My Age And Experience Will No Longer Buy That Argument

eom

[Mr. Ected]

17. I Prefer Hope to Hopelessness

But in truth, I sense that you may be right.

[lostnotforgotten]

22. I Prefer Pragmatism And Understanding One's Supposed Advocate Is One's New Antagonist

eom

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. The victims.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

John Donne

[dgibby]

9. ALL of the above, plus the fact that I have a growing sense of

despare about anyone ever holding the perps accountable.

[asjr]

20. That is it in a nutshell. I dream of

BushCo. being brought before a world audience (since the US. doesn't seem to do anything) and are being drawn and quartered. I absolutely seethe with anger when I think of what has been done in our name.

[Thickasabrick]

23. Ditto

[ProgressIn2008]

12. It exemplifies that the powerful are above the law and there's not a damn thing the peasants can do

about it. The rich and powerful can torture with impunity, can flout international law without consequences, and yet our country drones on, calling itself a democracy or a republic, pretending we have responsible government that is accountable. So many people yawn and change channels on the remote, while those of us who can't believe we've ended up in this Orwellian trap have no recourse but to sign some email petition or send a fax that the elites ignore.

It also angers me that this becomes a political issue, where it's a way for R's and D's to take swipes at one another... when it's so much more than that. Or that torture itself becomes a point of debate. Or that it becomes caught up in jingoistic propaganda about a phony "War on Terror."

So yeah, I'm not backing off on torture or the respect for international law. For the love of heaven, why on earth would anyone back off **torture**?

[Mr. Ected]

16. We've Become A People of Superficial Indifference

And fully aware of our inability to change anything. Anything.

[NJCher]

13. my top two

a) it's wrong to do this to another human being

b) they have so tarnished the name of the U.S. We are supposed to be the leaders in humane action and thinking and instead we are the perpetrators of so much that is immoral and wrong.

I was hoping that with Obama this would change but I have now lost that hope.


Cher

[AnneD]

18. Being ex military it boils down to this.....

do unto others as you would have them do to you. It is morally wrong!

I would like to know if I were captured-I would not be tortured for someone's sick amusement. We really have stepped on the slippery slopes on this on and no telling how far we will drop.

The info you get by torture is worthless. You say anything to stop the pain. Just because W has S&M tendencies and Dick was paranoid-neither of these idiots were in the military and have no concept what this can lead to.

I was in a PSYOP Unit and would occasionally help with interrogations. They could get intense at times, but we always got our info WITHOUT torture and got it in a timely manner. We honoured the terms of the Geneva Convention.

I fear for the safety of our soldiers taken as POW's in the future that are tortured short of organ failure. How could families cope with knowing their husband or wife could suffer day after day of pain and deprivation. Might as well pray for a painless death on the battlefield.

[EFerrari]

21. People forget that the "religious nutcases that will cut your head off"

in Iraq, for example, didn't do any of that until a WHOLE YEAR after the stories of torture at Abu Ghraib had been circling in the populace there.

You're right. Torturing the enemy puts our service people at greater risk, period. None of these torture defenders can EVER, EVER pretend that they care about our troops.

[Cirque du So-What]

19. My biggest problem with torture?

BushCo & the neocons used torture to extract phoney-baloney confessions that were used to fabricate imaginary ties between Al Qaeda & Saddam Hussein. It's the crux of the issue, because the neocons knew that torture wouldn't yield any truthful information. It was a sham from Day One - one that endangers American lives to this day - all for the greater glorious profits of Exxon-Mobil, Halliburton et al.

[RagAss]

24. Owned Media...giving Cheney a pulpit !!!

[Duer 157099]

25. A combination of things

1) that it is wrong and hypocritical

2) that I thought there would be a swift kick in the pants to BushCo when dems got control

3) but for me, one of the big motivations is that it is directly destroying the lives of the people who are forced or otherwise turned into the torturers. More than anything, this would be my number one reason for not wanting my son to ever join the military--fear that they would turn him into somebody who can laugh at something like torture, or at least easily dismiss it. Just read the accounts of torture and think about it being *your* child who is on the giving end of that treatment! I don't care if the recipient is Charles Manson or Osama bin Laden, I don't want my child to EVER treat ANYONE like that, or even think that it's ok. And yet, we've done exactly that to numerous troops who were put in charge of prisoners.

[csziggy]

26. Torture is wrong, it is evil, it is illegal, and I am ashamed that my country will forever

Be a member of the list of country infamous for using it. THAT pisses me off.

Germany was to an extent cleansed of the sins of the Nazis by the Nuremberg Trials. The assumption was made by the world that most of the perpetrators had been found and punished. Even if they were not, the situation was made clear - what had been done was wrong and the international community would not tolerate it.

Since then, the USA has erred as in Vietnam, but our citizens that committed war crimes were for the most part punished. But starting with Reagan's "October Surprise," Iran/Contra, etc. we have let these criminals get away with their crimes. Unless we expunge the war criminals from our government and political process and make it clear there will be no more of this, no American can be cleansed of this taint.

I don't want to be ashamed of my country any more.

[Blaze Diem]

27. Human torture is driving my rage. Add the arrogance of those who allowed, promoted, & performed such

acts, and I see a point of human crises for this world.

Its beyond civilized Nations.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

28. that's kinda sexist...

"Man Up?"



just saying...

[Mr. Ected]

31. Wo-Man Up As Well, Then.

With or without the physical cajones.

:-)

[Fovea]

30. Well

My older brother who section 8'd out of the navy used to torture me.
I don't swim if I can help it.

I have big problems with torture.

I was on a first name basis with a serial killer
who tortured his victims to death, doing home lobotomies
to create the perfect slave.

Generalizing from only two cases, I will say that
the pathology of a torturer is dark and full of
self-excusing rationalizations.

My brother was trying to make me tough.
Okay, I'm tough.
But I am not well in my spirit.

[varelse]

32. What drives my rage?

1) This is a democracy - and if my nation's government is torturing prisoners, I, a citizen of this nation, am implicated in the crime of torture.

2) The use of torture by the "leading nation of the free world" sets a precedent, one that if followed around the rest of the world, could result in the kidnapping, rendition, and torture of hundreds more people - many of them innocent - including our own citizens.

3) Civilians, conveniently described as "enemy combatants" could be kidnapped by any government adopting our new "legal procedures" for dealing with dissidents or suspected terrorists, and taken anywhere in the world to be tortured for years, under this precedent. What a legacy.

4) By refusing to investigate, prosecute, and punish our own war criminals here, we encourage the widespread acceptance of these practices in the future, in the rest of the world, as well as in our own nation. I can't think of any single decision that could harm our national security, endanger our soldiers, and jeapordize our nation's future more than a decision to close the book on torture without a final chapter holding the criminals fully accountable for their crimes and utterly repudiating their abuses in the name of "national security".