And that you heard was the National Security State putting its foot down

[nadinbrzezinski]

from the Maddow report seems Obama got into a nice fight with human rights activists... over prosecution of war crimes

We cannot have that in this country. Yes, usual excuses were used... but like ass holes they are just smelly... pardon the common navy saying.

Truth is that Ike was right... and the National Security State is far more powerful than the President of the United States, and so are the needs of Empire. Ah I hate it when I am right. Prosecutions? They are distraction you see. Doing what is right? That is a distraction... and for the tin foil hatters around here, remember 1963, about November and Dallas.

Will we ever see prosecutions? Yes right after the US Empire falls on its knees, or any of these criminals is arrested abroad. But the current government, nope.

And to those of you who think this is minor... suffice it to say that the next time this is done, it will be your kids, or you. The progression is clear. We started in OTHER places under OUR advisors. Now we did ourselves somewhere else... next time... will be here.

Change we can believe in indeed... more of the same in the name of Empire...

[rurallib]

1. The republics and the media and the spineless Dems have

turned this country into a land of 305 million peeing their pants at the thought of a few 'terrists' who would be kept in a jail and given a trial.
Not standing up to BUSHCO ensures another BUSHCO on a yet higher order. My guess is about 30 years out, once the stink of BUSHCO has been muted by a compliant press and a spineless congress and any admin that will stand up to these assholes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. This is not about we, as we have been screaming

and not about the media

This is about the national security state that Ike warned us against.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm

[merh]

6. And, if I read the Maddow comment correctly,

Obama was fighting for civil rights.

He has just begun and I don't believe he likes to not win - the military industrial complex is very strong and that is who he is opposing.

the damned dems that allow fear to rule them, I say screw 'em all - investigate dems and repubs for their knowledge of and hand in the crimes of the bush admin.

Keep it about the rule of law and the values of our nation, define the rules of the game, don't let them define them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. If the IMC is even 10% as powerful as some belief they are

this is more than just an uphill battle.

By the way, I don't believe in leaders, but representatives. I will keep asking, demanding they do the right thing. But I know they won't... and it is clear now.

[merh]

10. that is where the problems stem from

those idiots we have in congress - they don't care about the values and their oaths - they are worried about holding office

they have let the neo-cons define what it is to be strong and patriotic and that involves the "war on terror" crap that has been shoveled since 9/11.

you and I both know the brave and right thing to have done after 9/11 would have been to oppose the wars and to stand up against torture.

But for a handful of senators and reps, our congress sucks and are nothing more than political stooges.

[DemReadingDU]

13. Last fall when, the people were steadfastly against the bank bailouts

Thousands of letters, faxes and phone calls were made to our Representatives and Senators to show our opposition. Yet, they disregarded the will of the people, and the TARP passed anyway. I knew then, that we don't live in a democracy anymore.

[tom_paine]

4. 30 years? That's optimistic. I'd give it no more than 8-12.

Hope you're right, not me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Hey there, have not seen you in a while

seems the fight and the drumbeat goes on huh?

[tom_paine]

33. Hi. Just had to take a break.

:hi:

It must be masochism that brings me here. There can be no other reason. The whole "knowing what few others know", itself must be a form of masochism, based on the fact that it brings only pain, along with a lot of sideways glances to outright contempt, even on DU. And nothing changes.

Cassandra didn't seem to have much fun, either.

If I had it to do over, I think I'd have kept my nose OUT of history books.

Hey, at least we're in the "Good Cop" phase of Good Cop/Bad Cop.

Makes you wonder just what horrors await us in the next "Bad Cop" phase.

See why I needed to take a break? Maybe said break wasn't long enough.

Hope you are at least doing well.

[glitch]

23. 30 years is hugely optimistic. You also see it in dire climate change predictions.

I think people must feel '30 years' is safe enough to not cause a wholesale panic. Perhaps becaue it throws the direst consequences into another generation?

[Lint Head]

3. This country is up shit creek and the Democrats are poking holes

in the boat. The Republicans are also in deep doo doo but balless Democrats do nothing.
I am very disappointed and I do vote. I will have never voted for a Republican and I will never vote
for someone that lets outright murderous torturers go free.
:dem:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Forget about party, because that is no longer operative

US Republic, RIP 1789-2000

What you are seeing are Imperial rulers, some are just more gentle to their subjects than others

The Empire is now nekkid... and the question is what are we going to do?

In my view there is little to do but to watch the corpse continue to eat itself. It is unsustainable and let's see what replaces it.

By the way, the only reason to vote dem, is that they're better for your wallet, but when it comes to empire... same shit, more flowery language.

[DemReadingDU]

7. The economic collapse may wake up some people

but until millions are jobless, homeless, penneyless and hungry, nothing will change until the people have nothing further to lose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Yeah consumerism is a powerful drug

[bigmonkey]

11. Your post is completely pointless.

Your "clarity of insight" is meant to encourage people to see, like you do, that the situation is hopeless, and to "watch the corpse eat itself"? You think you're busy informing people, but this kind of post seems like lazy, self-indulgent, negative propaganda to me. At best. By your own lights, if it's successful it promotes inertia - if not, ignorance. Just great.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. That is why I keep emailing and calling

but I know it is more than an uphill battle.

By the way, I do have the luxury of history and knowledge of it. And only once in the History of the US did a President decide to look ahead and not behind. That was Clinton... and Iran-Contra.

If there are no prosecutions I guarantee you the next time will make the last eight years look like a walk in the park.

Oh and empires do rise and do fall... don't believe me, read Rise and Fall of Rome, or for a more recent take, Paul Kennedy's Rise and Fall of Empires.

What we are fighting is an empire, and one that is rotten to the core.

[DemReadingDU]

15. I have seen discussion elsewhere about the Rise and Fall of the American Empire

Nothing lasts forever, it's coming to an end. Might not happen in my lifetime, but surely in my kids and grandkids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. I think it will be here faster than we expect

and I fear the COUNTRY will splinter just like the USSR did. or Rome for that matter.

I think only the UK survived, oh and Spain, how could I forget spain.

Just that most Muricans are really not aware that we live in an Empire and are Imperial citizens.

All that talk of secession, which some folks don't take seriously round these parts are a symptom, so is our failing economy, and of course an over extended military that increasingly relies on mercs. Don't get me started on the end of community due to the rise of consumerism... which truly was an unintended consequence.

[DemReadingDU]

31. In order to get thru the coming depression

People are going to have to get back to their community, their family and neighbors. Otherwise, they won't survive.

[merh]

16. Did you catch this?

Official: Gitmo suspect to be sent to NY for trial

WASHINGTON – A top al-Qaida suspect held at Guantanamo Bay will be sent to New York for trial, an Obama administration official said Wednesday, a major step in President Barack Obama's plan to close the detention center by early next year. Ahmed Ghailani would be the first Guantanamo detainee brought to the U.S. and the first to face trial in a civilian criminal court.

An official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to disclose the decision, told The Associated Press the administration has decided to bring Ghailani to trial in New York. He was indicted there for the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa — attacks that killed 224 people, including 12 Americans. It was not immediately clear when the transfer would occur.

Ghailani, a Tanzanian, was categorized as a high-value detainee by U.S. authorities after he was captured in Pakistan in 2004 and transferred to the detention center at the U.S. naval base in Cuba two years later.

The official said the administration plans to announce Thursday morning that Ghailani will be brought to trial for the embassy attacks. Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd declined to comment.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_guantanamo_detainee

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yeah I did... and I hate to say it, but GITMO will not be closed

this year, or next or the one after next... this is the logic of empire.

Hell, if they wanted it could be done very fast... transfer to a military brig... and start treating them as Prisoners of War... in theory it is simple, in reality it is not.

[merh]

22. That is what too many people here don't seem to understand

in theory, governing is to simple, in reality - it is not.

GITMO will be closed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Will see... the logic of empire is now nekkid for all to see

and empire cares little for silly things like parties or principles.

Sorry if I am negative, but I realize that empire only surrenders at collapse, not a second before. Does not matter if this is Rome, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, England, to a lesser extent france and belgium or the United States.

Or for that matter if this is China, or Japan. or the Moguls in India, or... you get the point

[bertman]

17. The part of Rachel's comments that I found interesting was that someone's telling

President Obama he was just maintaining Bush's policies got the President's hackles up (she put it differently).

So, the unflappable Mr. Obama, becomes flapped when directly called out on his continuation of Bush's terror-oriented police state. I thought nothing could phase him.

[mmonk]

18. If he is going to take the stands he is making, he better get used to it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. precisely

because this is a continuation of those policies. To be fair, even the POTUS has few alternatives when faced with the security experts and empire drivers.

[ShortnFiery]

27. Welcome my son ... Welcome ...

to the machine. :scared: :nuke:

[magellan]

25. What I found most discouraging in Rachel's report

...was that Human Rights Groups and Civil Libertarians are STILL being ignored by our government. Upholding the Rule of Law is STILL a matter of political convenience.

I had hoped for much more from Obama and the Dems. This is the kind of buyer's remorse that puts me off a product forever.

[Octafish]

26. Explains why NO ONE IN CONGRESS OR THE COURTS INVESTIGATES BUSH FOR LYING AMERICA INTO WAR.

This also demonstrates exactly what your brilliant essay shows, nadinbrzezinski. Like Dylan and Henrix said: "The hour's getting late." People need to wake up. These are perilous times.

All the torture talk gives Bush and Cheney time to enjoy their retirement. If America had a truly free press, We the People would be concentrating on a story which is the even more important that torture: Bush lied America into two illegal, immoral and needless wars. THAT is what people need to be thinking about. Instead their heads are filled with side-show stuff and real-life stuff that's created crisis: think Wall Street's $10 Trillion Bailout.

Perhaps We the People will finally show up and help Obama -- or whoever it is -- beat the War Party down. Going from what we've seen, though, the powers-that-be must be thinking they've been getting away with treason, warmongering and corruption for so long, who's going to stop them now?

[ShortnFiery]

28. Newsflash: Democrats are now part of one big War-Party.

[Octafish]

29. BFEE

Same crowd holds sway over both sides. However, I believe peace-loving Democrats outnumber the warmongers of any political stripe.

The trick, for us, is to make the Peace Party more powerful. Tough to do when your side doesn't believe in using the power of guns to bring change, but in the power of ideas. That is why the pen is mightier than the sword, the BFEE fears the Truth, and We the People just might win: They can't kill an idea.

Unfortunately, the BFEE, like Oceania, think they can kill us all. And I wouldn't put past them they'd try.

[DemReadingDU]

30. What's that expression - nation of laws, rule of law

We wouldn't be in the mess we are in, if we took the law seriously and punished those for breaking them. We've had way too many people who think they are above the law and can do whatever they want for their own personal gain. Maybe the impending global depression will finally wake up people.

[bertman]

32. Laws were devised to keep the rabble in their place and to protect the aristocracies.

They are immune from the laws that govern our lives. Always have been.

[tom_paine]

34. Certainly seems that way, doesn't it? n/t

[truedelphi]

35. Actually Bertman, back in the 1830's, the "rabble" got upset enough over banking failures

To take apart the mayor's house (Baltimore was it or Phillie?) They threw the Fancy furniture out of the house and then burnt it down.

Powers that be know we re too complacent a people for that kind of scene these days.

[Badgerman]

36. I was slow to warm to her, but Maddow is sharp and ethical...hope she lasts! n/t