Parents battle over free Bibles for students in public schools

[rainbow4321]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051609dnmetfriscobibleswffa_hp.bb185f4.html

The district permits free Bibles to be put out for students; but there's a fine line between nonschool literature that's "put out" and "given out."

(snip)

The Gideons once handed out their Bibles along a public sidewalk in Frisco, but after too many parent complaints to the police department and the school, the district decided to move things inside. School officials said it's the only way to control the situation.

"We cannot pick and choose which materials are allowed to be left at a designated location for display/pickup based upon the viewpoint expressed in the materials," a Frisco ISD spokeswoman said in a statement.

The district admits that it has had to remind representatives of the Gideons to not approach children; that's the only way the volunteers are allowed in schools.

[CaptJasHook]

1. Texas. Haven't they succeeded yet?

[MineralMan]

2. They've succeeded in continuing fundamentalcase nonsense...

that's for certain.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. It's spelled "SECEDE", not succeed.

I think you're talking about the Republic of Texas. If so, the word is "secede".

Thank you.

--Spelling Nazi here.

[Occulus]

28. But... the typo was *apt*. n/t

[billyoc]

3. You can always roll joints with the thin paper.

[MineralMan]

10. I like pages from the Bible...the ink gives even cheap dope

a nice tang.

[walldude]

43. Been in jail?

I learned that trick in juvi a long time ago...

[billyoc]

91. Catholic School.

;)

[bobbert]

4. as long as there's not actual people pressuring the kids, I think it's better now

Just because it's sitting there doesn't mean you have to grab it, but having it available is fine, nobody's forced to do anything with it. It's their waste of money when all of the pages end up on the floor on the last day of school.

[CaptJasHook]

5. You're right. We should leave a stack of Playboys on the table next to it.

Free Speech, n'est pas.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. Ha, ha! Good one! n/t

[mwb970]

31. How about a stack of science books?

I don't see Playboy as being the opposite of the Bible the way that virtually any science book is. (Porn sells extra well in Bible Belt states, you know, and not just soft stuff like Playboy either.)

[rainbow4321]

6. "The district admits that it has had to remind reps....to not approach children"

One of my questions is...if the schools officials have to keep reminding them, how many "reminds" does it take before they get kicked off school property?
How hard is it for the Gideons to tell their people before they send them to the property "do NOT approach the kids".

If they can't seem to abide by the school's rules, they need to be not allowed in.

[ColbertWatcher]

13. I disagree, this is nothing more than a slippery slope.

What is it about separation of church and state that these people don't understand?

[anonymous171]

42. The part where the state is establishing a religion.

[stopbush]

7. Handing out the fucking Bible to kids is worse than handing out tobacco.

There, I said it.

[anonymous171]

11. The Bible is worse than Mein Kampf

There, I said it.

[spoony]

15. Hahahaha

Those are awesome impressions of over-the-top loons guys.

[optimal-tomato]

40. Jesus is worse than Darth Maul

There, I said it.

[anonymous171]

8. The bible itself is not harmful.

It is the preaching that usually accompanies it that is the problem. Without it, the Bible is as harmless as the Bhagavad Gita.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

18. But have you killed your son for being disobedient? n/t

That's bull.

CONTENT ADVISORY:

Contains verses descriptive of, and/or advocating,suicide, incest, bestiality, sadomasochism, sexual activity in a violent context, murder, morbid violence, use of drugs or alcohol, homosexuality,voyeurism, revenge, undermining of authority figures, lawlessness and human rights violations and atrocities.

EXPOSURE WARNING:

Exposure to contents for extended periods of time or during formative years in childhood may cause delusions, hallucinations, decreased cognitive and objective reasoning abilities, and in extreme cases pathological disorders, hatred, bigotry and violence,including but not limited to fanaticism, murder and genocide.

[seabeyond]

39. do you teach your children to be so closed minded, abrasive, rude, unaccepting

and dogmatic?

[Seldona]

62. I love the idea of the content advisory. It is perfectly appropriate, and excedingly well written.

I certainly don't want my children reading anything like that, in any context. Nor do themes like that belong in an educational setting. Not until they are of the age where exposure to those themes doesn't adversly affect their development.

For example my then five year old daughter attended church with my parents, at their wish. I told my kids what I believe, but that they have to find those answers for themselves. So when asked, she went. Anyway my daughter came home horrified, convinced she had just watched her grandparents 'eat Jesus and drink blood.'

Needless to say it was the last time she ever attended, even though I explained that only some of them really believe that, and that it is really a tasteless cookie and grape juice they were eating and drinking. I didn't even want to go into transubstantiation. lol

I find it ironic that these are the same people who want books removed for containing any number of the same themes as the bible. Are any other religions allowed to place literature in the same area? What about atheist and agnostic viewpoints? If one is allowed, the others should be as well.

[donco6]

9. We don't allow them here.

Never will, as long as I have anything to say about it.

I agree with the guy who says it's worse than tobacco.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. What about outside of the school?

The issue seems to be that doing it off campus was causing more problems

[donco6]

21. The solution is not to invite them in.

Once it's outside the school, it's a community problem, not just the school's. Call a cop. Call the mayor. Call the neighborhood watch. But they're not getting in here.

[NYC Liberal]

26. That's like saying it's better to have the neighborhood perverts INSIDE

the school, since then at least school officials can watch them.

Well sure, they can indeed watch them...but it really doesn't solve the problem does it?

[RoadRage]

12. Are free Koran's handed out as well?

As long as all Religions are allowed to hand out their own versions of the book they deem "holy", then it's fine. If ONLY Christians are allowed to hand out their version of the Bible - I have a problem with that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

19. Their rule about literature is content neutral - as it should be.

Regulation of free speech as to time, place and manner must be content-neutral.

So, what they need is available material from other beliefs and philosophies:

Koran, Talmud, Rig Veda, Tripitaka, Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc.

[donco6]

30. They don't let them hand out Devil books.

You should know better than that.

:sarcasm: <---in case it's really that unclear

[tammywammy]

47. Has a group gone to the school to hand out Korans? n/t

[Pharlo]

20. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to hand them

out in schools.

If they want to give out free Bibles, they should do that at church. Surely they're not trying to imply there are fine upstanding Texan Christians who won't show up at church to collect their free Bible.

[donco6]

22. They're trying to reach the "unsaved."

I guess they think handing them out in church is like . . . well . . . "preaching to the choir."

[Fumesucker]

25. Given that the more often you attend church the more likely you are to support torture..

I would say churches are exactly the place they should be handing out bibles.

Since no one there apparently reads the damn things.

[donco6]

27. LOL! You have a point there.

And could it be more sad? I think not.

[Arugula Latte]

51. On the other hand, the Bible is a pretty sick, twisted book in many parts.

Lots of gruesome stuff -- I guess some of these fundies get off on the violence and perversion in the Bible. Also, they apparently approve of incest because if Adam and Eve had two sons and begat the rest of the human race, well ... "Grandma Eve" was also "Mommy."

[surrealAmerican]

61. What makes you think the bible doesn't support torture?

There are some pretty brutal punishments, if I recall correctly.

[KittyWampus]

23. My issue is handing out bibles TO CHILDREN. Gideons should be restricted to handing out

their propaganda to adults.

[krabigirl]

24. This BETTER not happen in California. I will be moving to a secular private school in that case.

DO they exist?!?!?!

[donco6]

29. They'll still come after you there.

Anywhere there are kids, you'll see Gideons knocking at the door.

[LeftyMom]

38. It does.

Though, at least at the school closest to me, they set up on the sidewalk as the kids are leaving.

[PassingFair]

45. My kids got caught in their little gauntlet outside of our local middle school....

They came home waving the books around...

I took the books, got in the car, and handed
them back to the GHOULS that were way-laying
the children as they left the building.

I also called the school AND the cops, and
was told by both that as long as the Gideon's
stayed on the sidewalk there was nothing that
could be done.

I told them there BLOODY WELL would be SOMETHING
DONE if I stood there handing out copies of
"Satan's Little Handbook" or Mao's Red Book!

[RainDog]

32. a science group should hand out free copies of "The God Delusion"

and stand right beside the Gideons.

and a group of folklorists should stand beside the Gideons and hand out copies of Joseph Campbell's books about the sameness of religious narratives coming out of patriarchal societies.

and a group of wiccans should hand out whatever it is they read for inspiration. and a group of Muslims and Hindis and...

I'd like to see the reaction of the Talibornagains to that situation - when others act as obnoxious as they do, they somehow think it's different.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[alfredo]

34. I like This quote by Emo Phillips

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness."

- Emo Philips

[Vickers]

35. May I come to your church and hand out copies of On The Origin Of Species?

:eyes:

[JitterbugPerfume]

36. I got my Gideon Bible when I was a kid

in the late '40s, and I went through my "religious " phase .

Fast forward a zillion years and I am a proud athiest . A childs mind it pliable . We need to be careful what we dump into it

[seabeyond]

37. battle battle battle, always gotta be a battle. not like we cant teach our kids to say

no thank you or yes please adn get on with life

[Fumesucker]

46. By the same token, people could just teach their kids to keep their religion to themselves..

It takes two to make a confrontation, why not put the onus on both sides rather than just on one?

You act as though this is something kids are only going to have to deal with once, that is not the case, many places these sorts of activities are constant and ongoing.

If a suitor keeps hounding you to go out with them at some point it becomes sexual harassment, if someone keeps hounding you to join their religion it become harassment at some point.

Not everyone is as comfortable telling people "no" as some are, people often get trapped by trying to be polite and not saying a direct no. It's easy to say that everyone should be that way but that's not the way many people are wired.

Edited for speling.

[seabeyond]

49. they ask, would you like a bible and child says yes or no

and i dont care how many times. it is once a year. so what. not a big deal. no one is "pushing" anything on anyone. sometimes my kids say thank you and sometimes they say no thank you. we have also said thank you to mormon book, seven day whatever and one other group. my kids dont have a battle against the simple. they also know more about the rw religious coalition, good and bad, and the harm it does to this nation because we are interested in looking at all side without automatic and immediate comdemnation.

you are actually teaching your child how to be respectful to differing opinion without being rude or having to eliminate a threat to ones own belief.

[Arugula Latte]

52. And then the little holier-than-thou Christian kids turn to their Jewish or non-religious classmates

and say: "Why aren't you taking a Bible?! Don't you believe in Jesus?! You're going to Hell!" ... as I was told when I was a child.

[seabeyond]

53. as my children have experienced living in repug stronghold of fundamentalist baptists, again

so what....

it has not been the end of the world as a matter of fact, it has been a huge blessing in experience, knowledge, growth and openmindedness and empowerment for my children.

the going to hell part. none of the kids have turned to them and told them they were going to hell cause they didnt accept the bible. more because they endorsed kerry and obama or they stand up for gays or females or the many other things in life that contradicts with these people. and cause they stand up so often, they are not only empowered but educated adn can argue the other person into the ground

so what

so what if an atheist understand the makority are christian. the parent should be doing their job empowering the child his beliefs

my youngest son decided there wasnt a god. i didnt argue with him, contradict him, i embraced adn allow his belief and allowed him to talk it thru all and whenever he wanted. no shutting up or shutting out.

[Fumesucker]

56. I would just as soon a stranger started talking about sex to my kids..

As religion.

It is not an appropriate subject for strangers to speak to children about, period.

[seabeyond]

59. theya rent talking about religion, they are offering a book and the child can learn

to say no thank you. how odd that any parent think they can bubble their children from religion any more than sex. how odd that the parent wouldnt want the control of educating and discussing the subject instead of shielding the child from, anymore than with the subject of sex.

[Fumesucker]

63. Would you want adult strangers opening a conversation with your kids about sex?

If not, then respect the wishes of those who feel similarly about religion.

I honestly don't see what is so difficult about keeping one's religion a private matter between oneself and one's God.

[seabeyond]

65. they arent conversing, they arent preaching and they are not

opening up conversation

i dont know what is so difficult to tell your child to say a simple no thank you to a bible offered.

[donco6]

71. We have to have entire curricula to get kids to say no to candy.

And they still do it.

[seabeyond]

73. so what??? i dont get this. i dont get why we make our children victims and our parents

powerless. thank the lord.... teasin... i dont embrace either the child as victim or think i have no influence over my children.

[donco6]

76. It's not worth arguing over. Never mind. eom

[Fumesucker]

54. Kids may only get proselytized once a year where you live..

It's a constant thing down here in the Bible Belt.

Religion is a private matter to a great many people, it is not a polite subject for strangers to open on the spur of the moment in public.

I would just as soon you as a stranger talk about sex to my children as religion.

[seabeyond]

60. i am in the bible belt. the exact same argument you make on shielding

child from religion is the exact same one you sneer at with the parents that wish to shield their child from sex

i prefer not to be fearful of either or any subject, empowering and educating my children. what you deem appropriate or not appropriate conversation another will disagree with you

[Fumesucker]

64. I don't want strangers initiating conversations with my children about sex..

Apparently you think sex is an appropriate subject of conversation between an adult stranger and a child.

I fucking don't.

[seabeyond]

66. except you are making an argument that isnt. a battle where there is not one

that is my whole point from my first post. it is a friggin made up battle

[Fumesucker]

68. No it's not..

You saying it's made up doesn't mean it isn't.

And you refuse to answer whether or not you would like strange adults initiating conversations with your children about sex..

To some people religion is as private as sex, it's obvious that you don't understand it but it would be nice if you could actually admit it.

They are my children, as long as I follow the culturally accepted minimum, it's my business what I teach them to be offended or not offended by.

[seabeyond]

74. what part of they are NOT conversing do you not get. they dont chat the

religion or bible. they are not preaching. they offer. that is it

[Fumesucker]

78. How about if they were passing out "The Joy of Sex"?

or "The Story of O"?

Just offering?

To your kids?

All they have to do is say no..

[seabeyond]

80. my children would say no thank you. n/t

[Fumesucker]

82. ROFL.. I was a child once..

And obviously I wasn't yours..

Since yours are obviously perfect and I'm far from it.

[seabeyond]

84. perfectly imperfect yes. and informed. and curious and communicative.

how you interpret our discussion a matter of perfection and being far from it, i dont have a clue.

we simply are not afraid of thoughts

[Fumesucker]

89. It's revealing how you dodge my questions..

There is little doubt in my mind that you knew my last question was about how *you* would feel having an adult stranger hand a graphically sexual book to one of your children, but you deflected the question by saying your kids would say "no thank you".

I'm not "afraid" of ideas, I'm sick of being accosted by strangers who wish to discuss with me something I was raised to believe is as private as my sex life.

It is rude and presumptive behavior to accost a stranger about their religion and particularly so when the stranger is a child and the accoster an adult.

[seabeyond]

90. there isnt a dodge, it is the point. sex book offered and rejected.

so i will be sure to watch for you in all the sex threads and porn threads and all the others, an adament rejection of those threads that they dare to infringe on your right to bring sex in front of you to deal with, seeing that it is private and the world should respect that because you say.

it isnt a tough one. it isnt bigger than rejecting the offer. and you continuely make it something it is not for your argument. you want to battle, but the battle is so small and silly you have to enlarge the battle into something it isnt. that alone should tell you this battle isnt what you make it.

[madmom]

75. Little kids always like getting something, to them it's a gift, they don't care what it is. These

people are preying on innocent minds.

[seabeyond]

77. oh geeeeezus. and so what? an opportunity for parent to actually discuss

with even the littlest of child. an opportunity. i dont get why we are so very friggin afraid.

[madmom]

79. Maybe they want to discuss it on their own accord without being forced to by someone else. You like

it fine! DON'T force it on others. You raise your kids the way you want, I'll raise mine the way I want! I will tell them when I think it's appropriate not when someone else decides they want to force the issue. Isn't that supposed to be the American way?

[seabeyond]

81. i dont like it or not. i think this little fight over a bible being offered is

about as significant and the majority of battles the right fires off on. i think this whole religion thing for the left is becoming pathetic in its approach. burning witch at the stake like. stupid.

[madmom]

83. That is your right to think that. It is also my right to feel offended by

people trying to influence my children on any matter be it religion, or sex, or politics or anything!Religion is supposed to be a personal thing between a person and their god, so why can't they keep it that way?

[seabeyond]

85. of course it is my right, hence my posts. and of course it is your right to be offended

which is what my post is about. everyone so ready to be offended.

[madmom]

88. I am not "ready to be offended", I wish to be left alone. I have a right to have them NOT

influence my children. I had about 2 paragraphs that I deleted because I decided that I'm taking the high road here. Just leave the children out of it!

[MrsMatt]

86. unfortunately, we often have to discuss

things with our children when we are unready - because someone had forced the issue on a topic we'd rather deal with in our own time.

It's the way the world is.

It's called a teaching moment.

[MrsMatt]

87. dupe post n/t

[Joanne98]

41. Child molestation

[walldude]

44. As long as the kids aren't being harassed and the books are just left

there to be picked up then I don't see the big deal. And I'm a total anti-religious nut.

[rucky]

92. agreed.

I don't see too many kids taking the Gideons up on their offer, either.

[dustbunnie]

48. Frequent flyers should ALL carry those pocket-sized Gideon bibles in their carry-on.

After a particularly hellish cross-the-pond flight for work a few years ago, my travel-mate and I found ourselves stranded at the Charles de Gaulle airport with an all-male Gideon bible contingency traveling to Lisbon to minister to prison inmates. One of younger ones started chatting me up, and as his breath was quite rancid after our ten hour flying disaster, I offered him a stick of gum. That seemed to cement the deal for him, and he stuck like glue, despite the disapproving stares of his group. He made it clear that he was on the market for a good Christian woman (hehe not me). I asked him if any of them spoke Portuguese, since they were traveling so far to save lost souls. He said no. I asked if they had a translator. He didn't know. Odd, and I quickly ascertained the trip was more about having a good time in Europe, or perhaps wife-hunting, than actually ministering.

Anyway, long story shorter, got him unglued from my person just as we were being herded onto a new flight, and he made me a parting gift of one of those mini, purse-sized bibles. I threw it into my carry-on and forgot about it till the next flight. As always, I was singled out for boob groping, shoe removal and aggressive interrogation... they like to practice on small, innocent women as we're the least likely to protest, I guess. But as soon as the official pulled out my little bible it ended abruptly and I was oh so quickly dispatched on my way. I tested it again and again, and each time the result was the same. As soon as they assume you're a good Christian, you get moved to the front of the line.

I'm sure there are plenty of uses for a Gideon bible, but f you travel a lot and get hassled... carry one with you. It makes flying so much more pleasant.

[walldude]

50. Not sure whether to laugh or cry at that one... but I know something else

besides bibles that work that TSA magic. Guitars. I fly all the time and I always have a guitar with me, and I never get secondary screening. They are more interested in what band I play in, what kind of guitar it is, can they see it, that kind of stuff.

[dustbunnie]

57. Guitars are infinitely more interesting, and it makes sense!

I guess these guys do get bored of constantly hassling people, and when someone like you comes along, they get to be human for a few moments. I'm tempted to ask you about your music too. It seems you like Pink Floyd so you're alright Walldude! :)

The bible thing is just sad, and says so much about our society. Slightly off-topic but the reason I mentioned the Gideon bible group is because the whole faith-based initiatives thing makes me furious and wish Obama had pulled back on that concept a lot more. It's obvious that these religious groups have no prob using donation money to fund Vegas-style getaways. ;(

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Where the hell did I put the one they gave me in collge

decades ago?

Will a copy of the king James work? I mean the Hebrew bible I doubt would have that effect, especially since it is in a furiener language that might be confused with Arabic by the ignorant fools

[dustbunnie]

58. Next time someone tries to push one of those daily gospel, affirmation type mini-thing -

on you, grab one! :D

The Hebrew bible definitely won't work. You're right. That squiggly writin' would only arouse more suspicion since it is all furrin and who knows what it's code for. Uchhh!!

[donco6]

72. Ha! That's BRILLIANT!

I'm definitely trying it next time. I have to have some good use for these stupid things. I have a multi-colored collection - green mostly. A few red. One blue. About the size of a deck of cards.

[LWolf]

67. Why are public schools considered appropriate territory

for marketing of any kind?

Not only should no one be approaching minors on any street, let alone those surrounding a public school,

schools should not have to deal with trying to manage the materials that any marketer wants access to students for.

[ismnotwasm]

69. A couple of my kids came home with bibles one day

Orange ones. Handed out in front of the school. What it did, was force a conversation I wasn't ready to have. I'm agnostic and completely non-religious BUT I rather not trash religion in general, because many, many people have a faith of some sort. I'm friends with some of them. The bible itself horrifies me, and it was very difficult to explain to my kids why, so I sidestepped it a bit. I did explain why "church" and "state" and why school wasn't the place to explore religious teachings from a faith point of view. (In kid speak. This was the 4th and 5th grades)

I mean really, what was I supposed to say? "Well these people are handing out bibles because they believe you will burn in hell forever and ever if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior" Then comes the heaven and hell questions, all aside from the abstract vision of "God" that most kids pick up here and there. Kids are magical thinkers, and the innocent concept of a kind, loving God far better for them to contemplate as far as I'm concerned. Not an apocalyptic redeemer who's going to punish most of the population.

When they reached the age of reason, as George Carlin puts it, they found their own way. All have a sense of the spiritual, without being raised with religion. None are particularly religious either, but they are kind and loving adults.

ANYway, religion aside, it was parental interference. I was pissed.

[dorkulon]

70. Just give 'em the bibles; it's not like they'd read them or anything.

Ever try to read that thing? Makes the Iliad look like a Stephen King short story.