There Are Four Lights! : Torture and Star Trek..

[Fumesucker]

http://www.slate.com/id/2217905/

Nestled within J.J. Abrams' new Star Trek movie is a standard Hollywood torture scene. Nero, the Romulan antagonist, straps Capt. Pike of the Enterprise to a futuristic hospital gurney and demands secret defense codes. Naturally, Pike refuses. So—in a nod to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan—Nero forces a mind-control insect down the captain's throat as he stoically recites his name, rank, and serial number. Torture, here, is routine—not an ethical atrocity but an item on the blockbuster checklist—and predictable: The captain has the information his interrogator needs, but, as long as he's in his right mind, he's able to resist divulging it.


It's too bad Abrams didn't look deeper into the Star Trek canon for inspiration. There is a remarkable depiction of torture in Star Trek: The Next Generation, one that is both more sophisticated than the Capt. Pike scenario and more pertinent to current affairs than the ticking-time-bomb set pieces of 24. In an episode from the series' sixth season, Capt. Picard embarks on a mission to destroy a biological weapon and is taken prisoner by a hostile alien race, the Cardassians. Believing that Picard is privy to strategic military secrets, the Cardassians inject him with a truth serum. When this technique fails to produce information, the Cardassians string up their captive in a stress position, strip him naked, and subject him to extreme physical torment—zapping him with a pain-administering device. For good measure, the lead Cardassian interrogator also devises a test meant to inflict mental anguish: He points four bright lights at Picard and asks him, repeatedly, to say that there are five. (A clear homage to the four-vs.-five-fingers sequence in George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four.)

Powerful when it aired in 1992, the episode is even more resonant in 2009. When Picard's comrades on the Enterprise learn of Picard's capture, they insist that the Cardassians abide by the terms of a Geneva-like "Solanis Convention." The Cardassians rebuff the request: "The Solanis Convention applies to prisoners of war … will be treated as a terrorist."

{...}

More at the link..

I remember this episode vividly, often Star Trek was an investigation of morality and this particular episode was one of the best of that kind of ST screenplay.

[Maru Kitteh]

1. I remember that episode VERY well. It was extraordinary.

[Deja Q]

6. "Chain of Command", season 6. At the time, some derided it as being a semi-ripoff of

"The Best of Both Worlds". I'm not entirely sure why...

[RandomThoughts]

2. I remember that episode also.

The episode has many meanings to me, including the one you pointed out.

Very moving, and in visionary Star Trek fashion, it speaks the truth I think we all know.

Not to devalue the message in that episode, but it is even more then that for me. It is also a reminder to keep your wits about you. Lots of things can throw you off kilter and try to get you see things differently then they really are.

Got to stay focused and true to the facts of things, and not let the stresses or challenges get you to accept something you know is not true.

I remember a conversation, a person being stressed, not by torture, but by badgering of spin in an argument, he stopped and just said, "I see four lights..."

I remember that.

[Fumesucker]

4. I'm not sure I understand why we have to go to skiffy (sci fi) to get these sorts of discussions

In the media..

Perhaps for the same reason Colbert and Stewart are two of the very few people who can speak truth to power today?

I'm adding Wanda Sykes to that list too..

[ArbustoBuster]

29. Nichelle Nichols once pointed that out to Gene Roddenberry.

(For those who aren't Star Trek fans, those are the actress who played Lt. Uhura and the creator of the show.)

Nichols said, "I know what you're doing. You're writing morality plays!"
Roddenberry's response was to smile and quietly say, "Shhhh. They don't know!"

[martymar64]

36. They were morality plays, so was the Twilight Zone

Rod Serling wrote powerful messages about war and paranoia, very relevant topics in the Cold War hysteria of the early 60's. Star Trek was what originally taught me about racism and why it was wrong. The moral lessons taught would've made Aesop proud.

[WCGreen]

3. Don't the Cardassians have a show on E?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist..

[Fumesucker]

7. That one sailed over my head like a Klingon Bird of Prey..

Whoosh..

I rarely watch TV any more and certainly not E..

[WCGreen]

8. I never watched the show but know about it from watching

the Soup, the show that lampoons all those so-called reality shows...

[Orrex]

17. I made that joke in the Lounge yesterday

Tough crowd!

[rucky]

27. I had no idea Bruce Jenner was capable of such things. n/t

[Cheap_Trick]

31. THESE Cardassians are much less reptilian than the ones on E!

:rofl:

[Deja Q]

5. Abrams was aiming for a general audience and the masses; populism.

A shallow plot with plenty of nods and winks to all the old series (including 'Enterprise' for some reason) but with nothing of substance.

Remember, Abrams is on record saying he does not like nor understands "Star Trek". Which rather explains why the movie, when not having its characters mock themselves, is full of nudge-nudge wink-wink references to those of us who would see them and we're supposed to glee and squeal except some of us aren't that pathetic.

[Fumesucker]

9. Trek was very much a mixed bag..

At its best it investigated deep moral questions with a clarity not often shown in our culture these days, at its worst it was creaky space opera..

[Deja Q]

14. Oh, the creaky space opera days had me turning the idiot box off too.

I also preferred TOS's approach; it rarely got preachy and one-sided (e.g. "Let that be your last battlefield") but was often open-ended and allowed viewers to think for themselves.

Later TNG (seasons 5 and 6) were excessively preachy and one-sided... the stories biased from the outset. Season 7 was an improvement, but the DS9 and later spinoffs just recycled the same fluff and got even more soap opera.

TOS was action-based, at the behest of the suits because "The Cage" was "too cerebral", but TOS had plenty of thought provoking ideas in them.

The new movie is just eye candy with some self-parody along the same vein of what Star Trek V did to the same characters.

[Orrex]

20. Uh...

Let that be your Last Battlefield was IMO very preachy, in that it projected a smug (and not at all subtle) vibe of "it's stupid to judge based on skin color."

The mode of preachiness adopted most often by TOS was "look how self-evidently stupid behavior-x is." One great example is in The Savage Curtain when Lincoln meets Uhura and apologizes for having referred to her as a "charming negress." Her response is dismissive: "Why should I be upset by what you said?"

Off the top of my head, I can't think specifically of which TNG season 5/6 episodes were particularly preachy, but perhaps if I saw them again I would recognize them more readily. Overall it sounds like you've decided to accept TOS' style of preachiness while rejecting whatever preachy format you deride in TNG and elsewhere.

[Fumesucker]

24. You have to remember the mileu in which TOS came out..

It certainly appears blatantly obvious today but back then racial bigotry was far more accepted than it is today, if ST had been much more subtle it would probably have whizzed right over the heads of the audience it was intended to reach.

[WildEyedLiberal]

44. Really? I think seasons 1-2 of TNG were the apex of its sanctimonious preachiness

Season 1 was almost unwatchable at times with its preachy reminders of how perfect and flawless human society was in nearly every episode, and its heavy-handed and unsubtle deification of the prime directive. Picard also hadn't yet had the time to develop the richness of character he'd acquire as the show went on, and too often came across as pompous and overly high-minded. There were redeeming episodes, of course, like all the Q ones, and Measure of a Man, but all in all, bleh. Season 3 and onward is where TNG really came into its own and where it stopped feeling the need to shove a creepy Stepford vision of "utopia" down our throats, and Picard got to do more than bloviate about the prime directive.

I have never found the "perfect future" archetype appealing, and early TNG was easily the worst period in Trek history for it. As later TNG proved, the show could be cerebral and optimistic without being insufferably sanctimonious.

[Deja Q]

10. K&R. This is worthy of having 70 recommends and remaining on the front page!

[bushmeister0]

11. The writers of "Chain of Command Pt. 2" based their conclusions of torture

being a futile tactic on the experiences of the British military's use of it against the IRA.

Here's the scene "There are four lights!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAMCHShxS9A

Another episode someone should have remembered after 9/11 was "The Drumhead."

http://www.fandango.com/startrek:thenextgeneration:thedrumhead_v182010/summary

[Fumesucker]

12. Actually I did remember 'The Drumhead'..

But I was a five percenter, the other ninety five percent of Americans wouldn't listen to anything approaching reason at that time.

That was a very lonely time to be a committed liberal humanist, particularly so where I live..

[Xipe Totec]

13. Star Trek TNG S6 E11 Chain of Command II 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV9mk8ielPI&feature=related

[Lerkfish]

15. I'm confuzzled. (SPOILER)

in the current movie, cpt. pike DID divulge the necessary codes, otherwise the romulans would not have gotten close enough to start the drill.

so the editorial writer was completely WRONG about the scene, as far as I can tell, when he says that pike refused to divulge info. His stating his name, rank and serial number occur BEFORE the bug is implanted.

unless I watched an alternate version of the movie.


In addition the current movie is timed many years BEFORE the picard next generation incident... so....


I think someone should refrain from using star trek to make a point until one has their geeky facts straight!

:)

[Fumesucker]

16. Eh, I haven't seen the movie yet..

But here is the quote that may reduce your confuzzlment..

"The captain has the information his interrogator needs, but, as long as he's in his right mind, he's able to resist divulging it."

After the gets the insect down his throat he is no longer in his right mind, eh?

[Lerkfish]

18. ah, well, that clears it up a bit.

[Orrex]

19. Regarding the timeline

It doesn't matter whether the scene takes place before the Picard/Cardassian scene. The critic is suggesting that Abrams should have consulted prior installments in the Trek universe for dramatic reasons, not for inspiration about effective torture methods.

If I read your post correctly, it seems as though you're inferring that Nero would have known a better way to torture based on what had happened in Picard's time. Or am I misreading you?

[Lerkfish]

22. Well, you might not be misreading me (but I wasn't clear enough, either)

actually, what i was thinking doesn't really make any sense...

I had meant if the author was claiming that the antitorture agreements of the federation, as depicted in the New Generation episode, were a basis for saying that torture should have been handled differently, then he was in the wrong space-time as those accords hadn't happened yet.

but I guess the author, on retrospect, was speaking of the roddenberry cultural milleau, and how JJ abrams ignored it, which is a different issue, as you point out.

sorry for the confusion.

[Orrex]

23. Clarified that way, it makes sense. Thanks!

And, in that case, you're right in both interpretations. I think the second one (the Roddenberry milieu) is the right one, though.

:hi:

[wyldwolf]

21. you're comparing a Cardassian leader with a poor working Romulan miner?

Here. Here's a video that explains it all.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=46764912

[bighughdiehl]

25. Anyone remember "Mirror, Mirror"?

That episode of TOS can be found on youtube-here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWbSXjZlZ7U

That's the one where they get beamed accidentally into a parallel universe. The Federation is an empire
and Spock is a badass with a goatee. Anyway, when I watched it again on youtube, I was struck by how the evil empire in this parallel world has a device called an "agonizer" which seems practically just like a taser. Sadly prescient of what we have become.

[Fumesucker]

28. There is such a device in "Dune" also..

Book, movie and the Skiffy channel miniseries (which I thought better than the movie).

[JerseygirlCT]

26. I have to say (small spoiler enclosed)

the scene in the movie addressed in this made me think of waterboarding. To me, it seemed quite a timely reminder of what was done in our name.


spoiler (slightly):
























You see Pike strapped to a gurney of sorts, you see his head wet, you see water below him and gurgling around. yes, the go to the bug (grossest scene in the movie!), but I thought there was a bit of a message there. Maybe I was just imagining things, though!

[Fumesucker]

30. No, I don't think you are imagining things at all..

With the controversy regarding torture that's been swirling around for the last several years someone would have to be totally clueless to put that in there without thinking of our current situation.

[hedgehog]

38. I was gritting my teeth waiting for the waterboarding.

Who would have thought being forced to swallow a bug that was headed to your brain would have been an easier scene to watch!

[JerseygirlCT]

48. Oh, that was the most squirmy moment of the movie for me! nt

[InvisibleTouch]

32. Totally off-topic from your post, but...

...I had your sig quote on a bumper sticker ages ago. Once even had a guy knock on my window at a stop light to ask what it meant. :)

[Fumesucker]

33. Great minds think alike, eh?

So what did you tell him?

[InvisibleTouch]

37. Well, in the 30 seconds or so that I had before the light changed...

...I tried to explain to the guy about an ancient supercontinent during the days of the dinosaurs which broke apart due to tectonic plate movement and continental drift, but I didn't have quite enough time to fit in the whole geology lesson. :) He was nice about it, though, just curious!

[Cowpunk]

34. That's why Bruce Jenner looks so bedraggled

If being tortured by the Cardassians is so bad, try living with them.

[Delphinus]

35. That was a very tough episode to watch.

Not too long ago I saw the original 1984 movie - and realized the connection between the two.

There were many shows I enjoyed, but the one where all the races were looking for something and they each had separate clues and wound up on the planet only to find they were all of the same lineage was very special.

[hedgehog]

39. I have to defend Deep Space Nine as the best for confronting

moral issues. I'm thinking of an episode in which Kira is confronted with a Cardassian who she thinks was a sadistic prison guard only to discover he was actually a powerless clerk haunted by what happened in the camps. There was another episode in which Cisko and crew are forced to fight and kill a group of Jem Hadar after both groups crash on a planet. The kicker is that the Jem Hadar are set up to be killed by their master. Cisko and crew are in effect unwilling executioners. The ongoing exploration of the role of religion in politics is pretty unique to this series as well.

[WildEyedLiberal]

40. Both those episodes were AWESOME.

Also, "In the Pale Moonlight," when Garak and Sisko end up in a very underhanded and morally grey "ends justify the means" conspiracy to get the Romulans to join the war on the Federation's side. I have never forgotten that episode. DS9 was remarkably prescient in its treatment of those issues (it ended its run in 1999, before the specter of terrorism was on anyone's mind).

"Chain of Command" was definitely one of the best TNG episodes, though.

[hedgehog]

41. I have taught religious education on and off for over 20 years,

and I think forcing junior high + high kids to sit down and watch selected episodes of Deep Space 9 would be very effective!

[WildEyedLiberal]

43. Totally agreed

Racism - "Far Beyond the Stars"

War crimes - "Duet" (the one with Kira and the Cardassian clerk who made himself look like the war criminal)

The brutality and pointlessness of war - "The Siege of AR-558" (the one where Nog's leg gets blown off)

Damn, that show was pure awesome.

[Fumesucker]

42. DS9 was very hit or miss too..

At its best I agree that it was excellent, at its worst it was all but unwatchable space opera sometimes.

[WildEyedLiberal]

45. What aspects of it were "space opera"?

Well first of all I'm never sure what is meant by the term "space opera" - I've seen "space opera" used to refer to any science fiction which involves an epic, galaxy-wide conflict, eg, Star Wars. Sort of like the sci-fi version of heroic fantasy. By that definition, I don't think it's a bad thing - like any genre, it can be done well or poorly. I loved DS9, and other than a few clunky episodes from the early half of the series, I don't think it ever hit a wrong note. I loved the war story arc in the last three seasons and thought it gave Trek an opportunity to explore controversial themes that it really hadn't in the past, with limited exceptions (Chain of Command being a prime example).

[Fumesucker]

46. I watched DS9 quite a bit.. I don't think I've seen all the episodes though..

But I saw quite a few that were made up "technobabble" problems where the frammistat was about to explode or something and only a brave action by a crew member or members averts the disaster at the last moment.

And "apace opera" is akin to "horse opera" and "soap opera", a story where nothing much important really happens.

[WildEyedLiberal]

47. Yeah that sounds fairly typical of the first few seasons

When they introduced the Dominion as a constant, recurring villain, it got awesome. Before the war storyline and all its attendant political skullduggery, it was a much more mixed bag, with a few brilliant episodes (the aforementioned Cardassian war criminal one) and some real stinkers.

[sarge43]

50. The DS9 episode "Far Beyond the Stars" was brilliant.

The damage that racism does, not just to its victims, but to everyone. I'll also give it credit for exploring the darker side of the Federation. No human society is an utopia. We'll always have the age old problem of who guards the guardians.

[Sabriel]

49. Psst! Don't let this person know Star Trek has redeeming social value!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5631355&mesg_id=5631355

[sarge43]

51. That one was difficult to watch

The conclusion was particularly unsettling. Picard admits that at the end he saw five lights.