My $137, three-night hospital stay.

[KitSileya]

So, I just spent $137 for three nights at the local hospital for really bad cholecystitis. Well, actually, I spent $0 for my stay in hospital, the $137 are copays for the ER visit, the taxi from the ER to the hospital (the hospital I was admitted to is about 2 miles from the ER - I said I could take the bus, as I was amazingly ambulatory, so we compromized with a cab), and the medicine I got prescribed when I went home, which was the bulk of it (2/3 of the sum). I didn't have to pay a dime for the stay or any of the tests done while in hospital, as I was considered an emergency case.

Doing the math, $137 amounts to the pay for about 3,5hrs of work before taxes - granted, I have a really well-paid job, the lowest-income group would have to work 7hrs to earn the same amount. Of course, I paid more in the form of taxes, since that's how we support this system. But still, it just makes it really clear to me how blessed we in Norway are to have universal health care. I am very grateful to my fellow Norwegians for being willing to pay to give me health care, and therefore I am willing to pay for them having health care as well.

Next to me the first night in semi-intensive care, there was a woman, a drug addict, who'd apparently been brought in unresponsive, who'd hit her head as she fell due to the drugs. She signed out AMA in the early morning, after getting a good breakfast. I'm sure she didn't pay a single dime for her stay. I don't mind that my taxes are used for her benefits. I wouldn't have wanted to read in the news that a woman had been found dead on the street because she didn't get medical attention.

I guess that what baffles me with the US, is how a nation can refuse to help their neighbors when they can afford it. How can Americans who are against universal health care claim to be good citizens, to be good Christians (most of them), to be good human beings?

[Fumesucker]

1. K&R..

[CTLawGuy]

2. thanks for this story

there was some damn commerical on CNN from Conservatives for "Patients' Rights" where they talked to an English and a Canadian doctor about how "horrible" universal health care is. They're at it already.

[KitSileya]

7. Well, of course I realize that our system isn't perfect.

For a health care system to be perfect, people would have to stay completely healthy no matter what they did, and what befell them. There will always be people who fall between the cracks, or who don't get the help they need, and we do have to make the choice between the million dollars a year treatment (so expensive because it's so rare or hard to manufacture) or the hundreds or even thousands that could be treated for the same amount. But I recognize that our system is miles beyond what you have in the US. Period. Even if you do have the better doctors in terms of expertise, you certainly don't have the better health care.

[CTLawGuy]

8. I agree with that

NT

[Marrah_G]

27. Ugh- I've seen that commercial over and over all week

I just want to leap through the screen screaming "liars"

[geckosfeet]

3. It baffles a lot of Americans too. But IMO, the corporate health insurers are

the main lobby against any kind of reform.

We got reform in Massachusetts because Romney drew up a bill that said everyone in the state had to be covered. The insurance companies loved him. We all had to buy health insurance from them. Those who simply can't afford it are subsidized by the state. The insurance companies don't love them as much because the State has negotiated a lower fee with them, but they are still getting the premiums.

IMO - it's all about companies that are 'too big to fail'. It must come to an end.

[KitSileya]

9. Yeah.

I just don't see how, tho'. Unless Americans suddenly take a leaf out of the manual the french are using, and start bossnapping CEOs and parking their tractors on I-5....

[truedelphi]

99. I think it may have to come to that.

But most Americans are too apathetic.

[howmad1]

140. Uh, make that pathetic.

[truedelphi]

150. Okay, pathetic it is. And here is a

:toast:

[eridani]

143. Most of them are in the 85% of the people who will never be expensively sick

They don't give a shit about the other 15%.

[drm604]

4. K&R

Good post. You ask some very good questions in your last paragraph.

[tkmorris]

5. That hospital stay here would easily be 5 figures

It would cost about what a small new car does. Insane huh?

[KitSileya]

11. Exactly. And while I don't doubt that a night in hospital costs a lot here too

it's just that it's not the patient who has to bear the most or all the cost. True health insurance is the system we have, were the risks are divided unto many, and no one tries to make a profit off it.

[madrchsod]

6. many christians are true believers in calvinism

the rest believe in ayn rand

[KitSileya]

15. Which is ironic, because I believe the largest Christian denomination

in the US are Catholics, right?

[Hekate]

90. About 3/4 of Americans identify as Christian; about 53% are Protestant, 24% Catholic

Go to the link for a chart of the top 20 religions in the US; and further down the page a chart of largest branches of Christianity; further still is a chart of largest denominational groups
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

The most influential group has always been Protestant; Catholics are only about 1/4 of Christians in the US.

Historically, Calvinism was *very* influential and is the source of the so-called Protestant Work Ethic -- God materially rewards those who work hard and are righteous, and therefore if you lack material goods you must be both lazy and unrighteous. Sounds really bad when you put it that way, doesn't it?

Hekate

[RaleighNCDUer]

92. But the single largest denomination is Catholic, and the Protestant

numbers are divided up between literally dozens of denominations.

[Hekate]

102. There is an inherent difference in worldview between Catholic and Protestant even so...

... Although the presence of so very many Protestant denominations is one of the distinguishing features of American culture. Several centuries ago there was a whole continent to move around in if you didn't like the way your congregation was being run.

Unlike the Roman Catholic priesthood, which requires years of formal education, the basic Protestant preacher can pretty much pick up a Bible and form a congregation if he (or she) wants to, and as long as that preacher has adherents there's no one to say they're not a preacher. Even though there's a multiplicity of "Bible colleges" today, this still holds true.

Hekate

[Jackpine Radical]

136. I think Protestantism probably breaks down into 4 or 5 major clusters

(speaking as an outsider here). There are the Biblical literalists (evangelical/fundamentalists, Assembly of God, many Baptists, some very conservative Lutherans etc.); the mainline churches (generally not literalists) such as most Lutherans plus the Episcopalians, Methodists, Congregationalists, Church of Christ, Unitarians, etc., the "outliers" like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Amish, Mennonites & others who defy classification; and then there are the Mormons, who are a weird phenomenon unto themselves. The Mainliners range from something near Biblical literalism to the non-doctrinal traditions of the Unitarians and Universalists, and people move from one mainline church to another with little hesitation. The mainline clergy too sometimes move across denominations.

Then of course you get into complications such as the Episcopalians being "sort of" Catholics. I know of one tiny rural Catholic parish that couldn't get the bishop to send them a priest, so they converted wholesale to Episcopalianism and got a priest that way.

[Hekate]

145. I think that's right, Jackpine. Religion in America is complicated--but very interesting ...

... to people like me. LOL I love your anecdote about the rural parish -- maybe someday they'll even have a woman priest (Episcopalian, I mean; the Pope is going to stall for eternity)!

Hekate

[knitter4democracy]

131. And a small percentage doesn't do either.

Don't forget the Eastern Orthodox--we don't go for either of those. In fact, there are many different branches of Christianity that don't fit into those two boxes.

[Flatulo]

138. Wasn't Ayn Rand a devout atheist? nt

[Vinca]

10. You wouldn't be interested in adopting an uninsured American

who got the word last week that a hip replacement is needed . . . would you? It must be great to live in a country that cares about ALL its people.

[KitSileya]

32. I wish I could.

There's a lady at my job who had hip replacement surgery (she's 62 now) and after the surgeries, she decided to get in better shape. Now she's our trainer at our once-a-week aquarobics and aerobics classes.

[Why Syzygy]

12. Why indeed. k/r . nt

[Wednesdays]

13. "Personal responsibility" is the mantra of the land

"I guess that what baffles me with the US, is how a nation can refuse to help their neighbors when they can afford it."

Here in the USA the prevailing attitude is: "the woman created her own problems, why should we have to pay for them?"

(Edited to fix grammar.)

[KitSileya]

16. Yeah - the dual strains that forms American culture even today.

The mercenery spirit of Jamestown (over to get rich quick) and the puritan spirit of Plymouth Rock (prosperity is a sure sign of salvation, and everyone else is damned anyway.).

[liberation]

79. Yeah those "personal responsibility" types...

... you know the ones who love to tell other people that "they must pull themselves by their own bootstraps" (whatever that actually means) when it is other people who have to go through life's misery. Those are the same types that are now crying bloody murder because they are losing their jobs and went on to their collective "tea bag" freak out a few weeks back.

Which was funny, IMHO. As they should be teaching all of us a lesson by pulling themselves from their bootstraps. You know, since they love to claim how they are "experts" at taking care of themselves... I guess for them "personal responsibility" means "blame it on everyone but themselves." Because, obviously... their unconditional support for Bush during the past 8 f*cking years had nothing to do with the bad shape the country is in today. Right?

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. "...bootstraps, whatever that actually means..."

What it actually means is the opposite of those who believe in it.

The little tabs on the tops of boot you use to pull the boots on - those are the boot straps. Stand up in those boots and pull on those tabs - no matter how hard you pull you CANNOT lift yourself off the ground. "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is a description of a futile, impossible endeavor.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. I am pissed off at thre selfish shits who are my fellow citizens and the uncaring leaders ........

.... who are perfectly happy to foist off some insurance based scam on us. I hope they all get to watch a loved die from the wait in the line to settle the bill.

[KitSileya]

17. I'd be angry too, to be honest.

But then, I can't keep my mouth shut when it comes to things like these,a nd would never be kept on in a company. I'd either end up as a bag lady, or a politician. I think I'd prefer the former.

[Obamanaut]

20. And we will reelect most of those same uncaring leaders in 2010. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. The uncaring leaders are covered by taxpayer funded health care, so they can't relate

to the rest of us uninsured/under insured/undeserving low-lifes.

[Stinky The Clown]

106. Why is our president not championing universal single payer?

He has huge approvals, the bully pulpit, both houses, and a citizenry who want it.

[midnight]

18. Is AMA an insurance for the poor? I'm curious about the

fact that you mention your income is good, but not the fact that you are insured rather nicely. If you have insurance can you describe the type. I know you mention a co-pay, but not sure if this is stemming from insurance or not. Thanks.

Your question at the end made me think about Regan. Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, unless you are a bank, it is a message that many relate to. My favorite is taking food stamps from the poor, and giving that back to the wealthy so they can hoard all the tax relief.

[Marrah_G]

24. AMA= against medical advice

His insurance company is his government, paid for through taxes. No one lacks medical care in his country.

[KitSileya]

33. Her, if you don't mind.

Just to clarify. ;)

[Marrah_G]

37. I'm sorry !

[KitSileya]

29. AMA - against medical advice

I don't have "insurance" as such - this is a right I have as a Norwegian citizen, in fact, just by the fact that this happened in Norway. Emergency care is pretty much free in Norway, even for non-citizens, even for tourists. Medicine can be pretty expensive unless you're low income - those qualify for a special program. However, should I happen to get ill a lot during 2009, it benefits me to save every receipt, and if it gets above a certain sum, I can deduct it on my taxes. Or get what's called a free card, where you get everything after you've paid a certain sum for free. Physiotherapy, for example, if prescribed by your doctor, will not cost you more than $400 in copays in a year no matter how many appointments you have. After surgery however, physio doesn't cost you anything.

There is a divide between whether the treatment is necessary or not - cosmetic surgery needs to have a medical reason (i.e., breast enlargement is not free, but breas reduction can be if you and your doctor thinks it's necessary.) And yeah, waiting lists for non-emergency operations are higher - on average 100 days. So when I get the appointment my doctor at the hospital set me up for in 3 months to explore removal of my gallbladder, and they decide I need it removed, I'd probably get it removed in december sometime. Unless I see there's a hospital in Norway that has less of a waiting lis, and I decide to get operated there insted. (I'd have to pay the travel costs myself, then.)

The pull yourself up by your own bootstraps mentality is completely foreign in Norway. Even our most right wing party recognizes that health care is a sacred cow, even if they do suggest to "reform" and "better" it by privatizing and giving people "more choices".

[Blue_Tires]

70. can we set up a sham marraige so i can move to Norway??

:dunce:

[puebloknot]

81. No, you don't. I'm first in line. (Unless they have polygamy in Norway.) :)

[Jokerman]

19. Will you adopt me?

I have one prescription that costs more than that.

[high density]

21. I don't get this rant?

I think most people in this country would be very pleased if they went to the ER and then stayed in the hospital for three days, and their total liability was $137. That is cheaper than any hotel I've ever stayed at. Wait 'till you see the insurance claim and how much your insurance paid for your trip. Yes it would be great if everybody had good health insurance, but the fact is that you and I are not in the business of providing insurance to our neighbors.

[gabby garcia]

23. yes, you're right.

poor people should just die.
:sarcasm:
try using comprehension when reading.

[high density]

26. You might wanna take your own advice and come up with a coherent argument.

Thanks.

[Marrah_G]

25. I think you missed that he is from Norway.

They have socialized medicine.

[high density]

28. OK, that clears it up

I admit getting to talk about taxes and nodded off for a bit there.

[Marrah_G]

30. glad to help :)

[brentspeak]

68. On this we can agree

The OP would've made things a lot easier had it been pointed out right from the get-go (or highlighted in bold elsewhere in the piece) that their low-cost hospital stay occurred in Norway, and not the United States.

Still, I'm glad that the OP took the time to write the post. I'm jealous of the great, inexpensive health care people receive in much of Europe, as well as in Canada. The U.S. has gone down the tubes, and it's a colossal shame.

[pattmarty]

85. Quite easy to overlook if you remember he's talking about......................

............something he/she just takes for granted (and I don't mean that insultingly). We take a lot of things for granted in this country even if a lot of these "things" we don't even have. After WWII most European countries instituted some form of "universal" healthcare. We're fucking 70+ years behind the rest of the world. We will end getting some kind of "universal" system with Obama, but you can also bet that it won't be anything like the OP's. It'll be a "uniquely" American system, alright. The poor and middle class will get the short end of the thermometer" so to speak.

[Autumn Colors]

82. And the OP is a woman, so it's SHE, not HE (nt)

[KitSileya]

35. Point is, I'm not in the US.

I'm in Norway. This would never happen in the US. Oh, and I forgot to mention the 4 days I get off work, no pay lost (only for because May 1 is a national holiday anyway). That means I get better faster, and can go back to work and be productive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. It isn't a rant, it's a rave. n/t

[Ignis]

74. Nor are we in the business of providing roads for others.

Nor are we in the business of fighting fires that break out in our neighbor's houses.

...Yet I bet you pay your taxes anyway.
And roads still get built.
And fires are still fought.

[eridani]

146. Bingo! Health care should be a PUBLIC GOOD, like fire protection and roads n/t

[Ignis]

159. Precisely.

I've never understood this ridiculous Libertarian whining about paying for the public good. Do these people really understand where fire, police, roadwork, and other public funds come from?

Do they think it's the feckin' Free Market Fairy that fills potholes? :shrug:

[doc03]

22. I received my insurance statement for

a stress test I had last month at the Doctors office. The total providers charge was $2464.80 I have very good insurance since I belong to a labor Union so I am responsible for $126.06. I also saw the Doctor for about 2 minutes after the test and was billed $130.00 for that of which I am responsible for a $15.00 co-pay. I thought the idea of the Doctor's office call was to get the results of the stress test, he said oh no we won't have the results for that for a couple days. So I was scheduled for another office visit in June to actually get the results, that will be another $130.00 and I will be responsible for a $15.00 co-pay again. You know I think they could like call and tell me if the test revealed any kind of problem, but no they need another $130 to tell me the results.
The total cost of the stress test was $2724.80 my share was $156.06.

[KitSileya]

38. Ouch!

There's no denying that some medical care in Norway is more expensive than others, when it comes to copays. However, as I explained upthread, if you have a lot of medical issues, there's a ceiling to how much you need ot pay in a year. Dental health is not a part of this, unfortunately, but just this year there's a law coming before parliament which would make dental health subject to the same rules. It's an election year, tho' so I don't know whether it's just playing to the voters.

[old mark]

31. The US healthcare "system" is very simple - Fuck You, pay me!...nt

[barbtries]

34. thanks for sharing

good questions, there. i don't know the answers. :(

well, maybe. we're a nation run by greed.

[FraDon]

36. k&r • How can people be so heartless?

Hear it again, Neighbors:

HAiR: The American Tribal Love-Rock Musical - lyrics by James Rado & Gerome Ragni, music by Galt MacDermot

"Easy To Be Hard" :: The Three Dog Night version:
http://www.rhapsody.com/three-dog-night/the-best-of-three-dog-night/easy-to-be-hard/lyrics.html

How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy To Be Hard; Easy to be cold

Oh, how can people have no feelings
How can they ignore their friends
Easy to be proud; Easy to say no

And especially people who care about strangers
Who care about evil and social injustice
Do you only care about the bleeding crowd?
How about a needing friend?
I need a friend...

[Bluenorthwest]

56. A great song

[TahitiNut]

64. One of my very favorite songs for about 20 years.

Three Dog Night was (and still is) one of my favorite rock groups ... along with CCR and S&G and the Moody Blues.

[destes]

89. It was a song from Broadway, "Hair" (circa 1968 I think)

Lovely song originally sung by the character, unwed teenaged mother, who was hung out to dry by her druggie/play-about boyfriend ("he resembled George Harrison of the Beatles"). Three Dog Night covered it well enough though, I suppose. The lyrics of youth cast hard upon the heart.

[Arger68]

39. May 15th I am going to have surgery on my collar bone

which did not heal after an accident a year ago. Due to my crappy $10,000 deductible insurance policy this accident will have cost me somewhere around $12,000 total. I am fortunate to have a fairly well-paying job, but it is still killing me financially.

[Connonym]

149. please look for PM nm

[jberryhill]

40. Norway? Of Course They Have To Provide Good Health Coverage

...because it is also compulsory to eat fish poisoned with lye:

[KitSileya]

44. I've never understood the attraction of lutefisk.

Luckily, my mom hates it and has never served it at home.

[jberryhill]

46. Is It Legal In Norway Not To Eat Lutefisk?

I thought it was compulsory, since nobody will eat it voluntarily.

[Wednesdays]

91. Now there's a red herring if I ever saw one

Pun both intentional and unintentional.

[Diclotican]

117. jberryhill

jberryhill

Not Compulsory by all means.. But traditions, is traditions....:evilgrin: And it taste rather good, when made properly... If not, it is a disgusting food to eat...

Diclotican

[wolfgangmo]

122. It's the same in Canada

You are required to play hockey. They HAVE to have free health care.

[jberryhill]

158. Isn't there an opt-out

...under which conscientious objectors and pacifists can take up curling instead?

[AngryAmish]

41. You paid a lot more than $137

You just can't see it because it is in your taxes. No such thing as a free lunch and all that whatnot.

[KitSileya]

43. I believe I stated that in my OP.

In the second paragraph. But the point was that I don't mind paying these taxes - in fact, if I were completely healthy for the rest of a long life, I wouldn't mind paying these taxes. It has to do with decency.

[Spangle]

55. How much for Insurance???

Many pay out the butt for insurance,and still can not afford to go. Cause even with insurance, you have co-pays and deductibles.

Cost for insurance is to high for many low wage earners. It's a set amount, not a percentage of their income, which a tax would be.

It's not the tax, that is the problem. It's that we all ready have a business set up that would be 'harmed' if things changed. Like the doctors that invested their money into buildings and equipment, etc. Not being snarkey. Just pointing out a very, very real problem. It's the only real hold back for those who work in the Medical field. They see the benifits.. but they see this drawback.

Of course, the insurance companies would no longer be able to sell medical insurance. But they also have many other types of insurances they could continue to offer. This is just one of their cash cows.

[alarimer]

65. I would bet that it is cheaper to pay it through taxes than out-of-pocket.

My insurance plan costs my employer $350 a month. That is $4200 a year. Now I don't pay this but I pay deductibles, co-payments, etc., which can become a low of money quickly. I probably spent $500 last year on that stuff. Much less than anyone with a serious illness of course. But if I had a serious illness, I would have been out thousands, even with insurance.

I doubt the extra taxes would amount to $4000 a year. And of course if we had single-payer health care, employers would not have to pay for their employees insurance, saving them potentially millions. I;d take the increased taxes any day because I think we as individuals would come out ahead. Especially so if we get sick and have no bills to worry about afterward.

Yes, people in Norway and Canada pay higher taxes. But as a percentage of GDP, we spend a lot more on heath care than they do.

[wolfgangmo]

123. More than 1000 posts and he still can't read

He stated that he pays taxes on that.

The point here is that with a large shared risk group and hard bargaining that the per person costs are in fact much lower than they are in the US.

They have divided and conquered us. I guess you enjoy being "partDed" like a prisoner.

[Stellabella]

42. It baffles me too.

That same stay in the US would probably have cost thousands of dollars. Cost YOU that much, that is.

'Christian' nation my ass.

[madokie]

45. I spent a week in the VA hospital

6 years ago because of Deep Vein Thrombosis in my left leg and it cost me a little over a thousand bucks co-pay. A bargain if you ask me.

[marketcrazy1]

47. I spent 4 hours in an emergency room

after enduring 5 days of severe abdominal pain because I have no insurance and was afraid of the cost. finally my GF convinced me to go... I had a battery of tests, turned out to be a minor problem TG! when the bill came it was 5600 dollars and change..... ( still paying it off a little each month )

[madokie]

53. Back in the early '70s I got food poisoning and spent a night in the hospital

they pumped my stomach and kept me overnight and the total bill was $155 doctor and all. We need a national health care and to me the system the VA uses here in OK is the way to go. I'm going in the first week of may for a bunch of work to see what degree of blockage I have in and around my heart and it'll be all done there at one place, no having to travel all over hells half acre to see first this doctor then the next filling out paperwork paying co-pays etc. It'll all be a one stop trip for me. Everyone should be so lucky. Sure I paid a price way back when but in reality don't we all? I'm disabled with PVD, PAD and I have cholesterol numbers right where the doc's say they should be so what gives with that? I asked my doc about that and he just shrugged and said something under his breath that I didn't catch. When I pinned him down on it he just said I don't know. Everyone should be able to walk into any hospital any time they need too without any problems or hassles.

[Gormy Cuss]

77. Yes , a bargain through one of the government-run health care providers.

Funny how that works. It boggles my mind that there is still such resistance by some people to a national health care system where no one can be turned away for basic care.

[myrna minx]

48. K&R. I'm glad that you're ok. Thank you for your insights. n/t

[nichomachus]

49. I spent three hours in the outpatient department in the US

They gave me an IV, snipped a small growth off my vocal cords, gave me a tissue and a cup of ice and sent me on my way. Total cost -- $24,000 -- but I saved $800 on my taxes by not having universal single payer health care.

[struggle4progress]

50. My last ER visit cost me $100 an hour -- and it was pointless: I called my physician

and said what about such-and-such and he said go to the ER and have then monitor you for a few hours and I said I don't think it's necessary and he said yes it is so I grabbed a book and went to the ER and they gave me a chair to sit in and every hour or so somebody poked his head in the door and said how are you feeling and I said fine and that's pretty much the whole story and after three hours they sent me home and then a bill for $300 came in the mail

[sinkingfeeling]

51. You're very lucky to be where you are. My 3 day hospital stay cost me $3K and I have insurance.

I had a $1000 deductible and $2000 in co-pays. Total cost on the hospital bill, including use of their OR and Intestive Care for 1 night, was $34,000. Insurance got that figure down to $19K.

[Spangle]

54. Melting Pot

The whole issue is really not wanting to help "them". Who ever the "others" might be. We are a mixed group. Back in the day, when Universal health care was being set up in other places, it was happening in places that felt more united as a group.

The USA has never felt like that. Never been in that situation. WE don't mind helping our neighbors, just not the 'other' peoples neighbors. Neighbors tend to be similar. In economic status and culture tend to be similar. So you have poor areas and rich areas. Schools use to be funded by the taxes on the areas around the school. That would leave the schools in the poor areas running on very little, compared to the rich areas. So much for 'equal education.' We had to make laws to equal that out. And folks today still complain about their money going elsewhere to help "other' peoples kids.

This goes back to the thinking before the Civil War. When it was thought that if the blacks were freed from slaver, they would be so stupid and lazy, they would all die off. <eye roll> Blacks are just one group. There are many, many groups. The list of undesirables differed based upon location. Italians were low man in New Orleans. Irish on the east coast and as they spread.. everywhere. Germans where not thought to highly off, where they settled. Oh, lets not forget the Natives, which would include Mexicans.

WE will not be able to accept National Healthcare until we can consider everyone truelly Americans. Everyone as neighbors. And stop dividing ourselves up. IF a persons parents where born here, then they should be called Americans.. period. No matter their skin tone. That should be considered just part of their discription. Like hair and eyes.

[KitSileya]

57. I do believe you've hit the nail on the head.

Or at least one of the nails. Yes, Norway's a pretty homogenised country, and I believe the common experience of WWII help solidify that homogeneity. It was after WWII that the welfare state really started to grow.

In the US, people are forever emphasising what about them is not 'American' - Polish American, African American, Hispanic American. I guess that's created a group belonging at a lower level than the national, and therefore makes it easier to dismiss other groups.

[dustbunnie]

62. But traditionally Canada has been even less of a melting pot.

Immigrants have kept the home country language going, while Americans have mostly been abysmal about that. Most Canadian immigrant families would refer to themselves as Armenian, Chinese, Pakistani, German, etc... whatever the ethnic group they happen to represent as well as Canadian. And then of course there was the historic animosity between English and French Canada (not an issue these days, but has been for many years). And the population is much more sparse, scattered really, from east to west. Yet, you have a cooperative rather than cowboy spirit across the board.

I think a lot of it has to do with the corporate and religious stranglehold on a slave population. Both institutions stand to lose a lot if single payer were implemented.

[provis99]

112. but the Canadian system is a total fluke

They only got universal government health care because one of their prime ministers, Diefenbaker, had a sick mother who he couldn't pay for her health costs. So he passed a law guaranteeing universal government health care, and was able to pay off his mother's health care bills.

All we need is for everyone in Congress to have mothers who get sick, and they can't pay off the health care bills. We'd get universal government health insurance for sure, then.

[wolfgangmo]

124. Look ma - a crack head.

Sorry for the cheap shot but you couldn't be farther from the truth if you were Rush Limbaugh.

Canadians recently voted on the most admired Canadian in history and they voted for the premier of Saskatchewan, Tommy Douglas, for his primary role in setting up the single payer healthcare system in Canada. Deif. Puhlease.

[dustbunnie]

161. You are correct!

:) Interesting factoid: Douglas's daughter Shirley married Donald Sutherland, and therefore Kiefer Sutherland is his grandson. 24's Jack Bauer is related to the Canadian who innovated the health care system. Weird when you think about it.

In general - should the US achieve universal payer, the corporations would take a hit immediately. Many people stick with jobs they despise just so their families can have access to health care. Corporations literally blackmail the population into working slave hours for slave wages with the constant threat of unemployment, and thus, no health care hanging over their heads.

Imagine if you had a family of six and worked in terrible conditions for rotten pay. You have a year's worth of savings to live on. Wouldn't you be more apt to tell the corp to shove it and look for something better, because you know your family will at least have access to a doctor and other health care services should the need arise?

And once the barn door is open, you can't shut it again. (Or however that saying goes.) Next you'd have people clamoring for civilized maternity leave, and God knows what else, just like all the other socialized countries. People might even demand vaca time! :wow: That's what happens when people have automatic health care!!!

The Churches HATE the idea of single payer, as people will leave in droves. Currently many people are affiliated with a Church because these are the people who will lend a hand if disaster strikes. Rethugs and fundies love that. It's the old Reader's Digest pull-at-the-heartstrings meme... that when people are in trouble, their friends, neighbors and congregation will rise to the occasion and help out. (sniffle.) Once "charity" moves to the government, they fear people will become numbed out drones working for the system, and won't have a need for religion anymore. The populations of socialized countries are far from numbed out drones, but they DO leave the Church. That's a fact.

[OneGrassRoot]

111. Good post....

so true. We don't feel very connected as a nation until we, as a nation, feel under attack from the outside.

In general, we have a very "not in my backyard" mentality, not caring about anyone or anything unless it directly impacts our personal space, our pocketbook, etc.

Combine that with Corporate America owning the "free press" and DC, it's easy to see why very little is done on a universal level in the States. It's all about local needs and interests.

Surely people will start connecting the dots soon, and see how things -- no matter how physically far away -- affect us all nowadays. Eventually.

[femrap]

58. The American System is greedily corrupt...

Finally after 4 years, I went to a ob-gyn for an exam and only because I was experiencing pain. Given the current system, I now pay $227/month for a health policy with a $5,000 deductible. I take one medication and I pay $15/month for that. I get nothing else.

So I started to think that if I did have a ovarian cancer, I better find out so I could spend what money I have left visiting France and other places before I got really sick.

I have started to understand that the 10 years before Medicare kicks in is when a person may start to have health problems....arthritis, heart, etc. I exercise, eat well, and take tons of vitamins and minerals, but nonetheless, I have consumed dirty air, dirty water, and Goddess know how many chemicals of all types. And at 55 to 65, one begins to feel the effects of these.

Maybe they just want us to die before 65. I've read if you make it through your fifties, you usually make it past 70. I truly hate giving money to insurance companies, for-profit hospitals, and Big Pharma. I could be giving that money to someone or something that really needs it.

I am sick to death of giving most of my tax money to the Pentagon...an institution that does nothing but kill, destroy, and create havoc. This is the main reason why The American Empire is Declining. We invest to much money in Death.

Our lives become so LESS adventurous, entrepreneurial, and free because we must always worry about Health Costs, accidents, children's health, etc. And the really big worry....What if one outlives their money and ends up in some horrid old age home. The only reason I want a gun is so I don't have to face that.

This is America. When does this change?

[Froward69]

59. I used this in the

Denver post... I apologize for not asking first, but needed a quick retort to some greedy selfish scumbag.

[KitSileya]

66. it's okay.

I've been to Texas, so I don't begrudge any (non-fatal) ammo.

[BrklynLiberal]

60. I hope that America learns from Norway.....and the other "Socialized" nations....

[KillCapitalism]

61. Congrats to you for living in a CIVILIZED nation!

Maybe if Franken gets put in there, we might have the chance to pass UHC legislation and pull this country out of the stone ages.

[pleah]

63. K&R

[ElboRuum]

67. That last question was rhetorical? Or does it really baffle you?

Americans who are against universal health care generally cannot claim to be good citizens, as they are usually the same ones who complain every time they are called upon to contribute to their society. They are the first ones who clamor for war, but the last ones to volunteer. They are the first ones to cry foul when their communities are filled with crime or blight, but the last ones who would accept a tax hike to spring for more police or renewal of infrastructure. And they would absolutely rather disappear into the black hold of bankruptcy from medical bills before allowing a single dollar of their taxes go to anyone they deem unworthy of society's care.

Some in America like to hoist the flag of self-reliance in defiance of a nation which has long since come to the realization that shit happens and we ALL have to deal with it. Nevermind that their "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" mentality comes with the caveat that they can pull themselves up by everyone else's as well. Those that crow of the better times where people assumed responsibility for themselves in all things and sucking it up when things don't pan out often do so as they drive down the well-paved streets, fill the coffee pot from water from a tap whose water supply is a publically-funded reservoir, and even as they go to the mailbox to get a Social Security check. Their tolerance of "socialism" begins and ends with their taking from the till, indeed they have no problem with it so long as it is they that receive the benefit in all cases.

In short, some of America, and quite a few who call themselves the "real America", are the ultimate examples of human narcissism and baseless entitlement.

Good citizens don't destroy the fabric of a society for their own personal edification.
Good Christians certainly don't allow others to come to dire straits if it is within their power to help prevent it.
And good human beings are social creatures who see VALUE in others, rather than as a hindrance to their own access to resources.

[KitSileya]

97. Yeah, my questions were pretty much rhetorical.

I know there's as much hypocrisy (sp?) in Norway as there is in America, but Americans have a peculiar brand when it comes to being Christian and helping those who need it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

71. What is semi-intensive care?

[KitSileya]

148. Basically, it's a ward for people who come in during the night,

but who don't need intensive care. If you're admitted late in the evening, and they still haven't determined whether you need to be moved to a regular ward, or what ward if you do, they put you in the ward that is connected to the emergency reception. An observation ward, in other words. The ER in my town is not in the same place as the hospital - a 1000 year old city with peculiar geography made it impossible to put a modern hospital downtown.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

156. Interesting thanks for the info.

[kestrel91316]

72. You poor, poor Norwegians, suffering under the cruel yoke of socialism.....

:sarcasm:

[KitSileya]

100. Yes, it's so terrible we compete with Canada for the top billing

on a list of the world's best country to live in. I believe we've won the past couple of years.

On a different note - wow. I've never had a thread generate that much interest before. This is truly a hot topic. I can't wait to discuss it with real live Americans (some are even republicans!) this summer.

[GOPBasher]

73. I rec'd this because I want everyone to see the horrors of government health care.

It must just suck for you guys, huh?

[Yavin4]

75. I Disagree With Most of the Posters On This Thread

A clear majority of Americans want a single-payer, European/Canadian style govt. healthcare program. The problem is that our government is bought and paid for by corporate donors who scare off the politicians and thwart the democratic will of the people.

But, the paradox in the U.S. is that more and more jobs, even so-called "professional" jobs, are dropping healthcare from their benefits package, and even the jobs that do offer healthcare only offer bare bones health care with sky high deductibles. As a result, no one is happy with our private health care system. No one. Not the medical community. Not the people. Not businesses. No one, except for a hand full of HMO companies and their CEOs.

Private health insurance is failing big time in America, and the only thing keeping it in place at all is campaign contributions.

[wolfgangmo]

126. Most of the americans I talk to, including our patients.

Believe every scare story and do not want universal health care. In this case, given that I come from the same district as Michelle "batshit nuts" Bachmann, it is mostly fear and loathing of anyone who doesn't look like them.

[jb5150]

76. The movie "Sicko"

should be required watching for every American. I'm uninsured, so I know I'm screwed. It's sad to think that many people who are insured might be one major illness away from ruin, assuming your insurance doesn't try to weasel out of paying anything at all....

[FourScore]

78. I just had the debate of universal health care

with my Republican, Washington-insider bro-in-law. He is , of course, against it. I just kept coming back to the argument that it should be a basic human right to receive health care. That was the one argument that left him without a retort.

[pattmarty]

80. Will you sponsor me so I can move to Norway??? I'll trade my.............

...............2 first born children and a future pick of your choice. I'm sure you already know this, but just to repeat for the sake of hearing it again; WE have shittier education than you do, plus lousier healthcare (which you just showed us), shittier environmental laws, shittier financial laws and I am getting tired of typing. If we could ONLY get 60% of the VOTERS here to understand this and realize that the taxes are not ALL that more for the majority of folks, maybe, just maybe we could have half of the things you take for granted in Norway. Bush out, Obama elected, maybe their is hope for us here.... I can always......................hope.......

[Lucky Luciano]

83. Nice post, but one question...

Norway has a ton of revenue as an oil producing nation - how much of that oil is used to pay for social services because the revenue per capital from oil is very high. Would it be possible for Norway to have the kinds of social services that it has without a huge oil reserve while keeping taxes fixed?

thanks

[KitSileya]

98. Well, yes, we are fortunate with our oil.

However, the great health care system was started after WWII, not when we found oil. Much of the oil revenues are put into a fund as well; the politicians are strict about putting too much oil money into the budget because it would drive inflation sky high. I won't know the exact numbers, and to be honest, I really don't have the energy right now to find out, so I hope you'll forgive me if I ask you to google it? I am still not 100% well.

[Diclotican]

120. Lucky Luciano

Lucky Luciano

We do have a lot of revenue coming from our oil in the North sea that is true.. And some of the revenue is used to pay for social services and so on.. But our government was smart enough, and have for more than a decade now, let a lot of the revenue going to a special found.. The petroleum found.. Where billions of billions of money have piled up for the last decade or so.. Therefore we have a rather big cushion to safeguard the well being of every single of us. And off course, it helps that we are rather peacefully and are not involved in a lot of wars all the time:sarcasm: I would bet that if US had used 1/3 of what you are now spending of weapons and wars - you could also have a universal health care without problems.. And you would have a "tax base" no one in Norway would have the slightest possibility to dream about.. In Norway we have just 4.6 million people and still manage to have a decent social services for everyone.. Why shouldn't US, who are more than 300 million manage the same? On a far more inexpensive level than in Norway..

Diclotican

[Lucky Luciano]

144. Agreed...our biggest waste is on the military industrial complex. For sure.

I would rather the country get univeral healthcare. No question about it.

I have noted that Oslo is one of the most (if not, the most) expensive cities in the world. Is this also caused by the oil wealth or is there some other underlying reason? A country of less than 5MM people would not seem to have the population density to be more expensive than Hong Kong or New York!

PS - I know I could google, but it is nice to hear what real Norwegians have to say on the subject. The Scandinavian countries are places I really want to visit...don't quite have the time or money to go because I would want to explore all the way up to Hammerfest - that would take some time for sure!

[Diclotican]

151. Lucky Luciano

Lucky Luciano

That is true, I hope one day, that even americans in the US can have an universal healt care system like most other develepoment Country have this days... When even the poor contry of Cuba are ranket greater than US on the OECD list over how good it is to live in a country, then something is very wrong either on the list, or in real life.. And all your spending on the military must hurt every one sector in a country...

That is also true, that Oslo is one of expensive cities in the world - and it is partly caused by the oil wealth, but I would also say that in some parts, specially in the sentrum, buildings are at a premium, and in Oslo they have a rather strict building code, so it is as of now not allowed to build to tall buildings.. Expections for this is maybe Oslo Plaza (Hotel SAS RADISSON) And Postgirobygget (the biggest post office in Oslo) and some few other places.. The rest of the City is an rather low building zone, I belive the largest building should not be allowed to be more than 11 floor high.. I am not excactly sure why Oslo is that expensive as it is, but I think it is many reason for it.. Most norwigian tend to own their home rather to rent it.. Maybe that is the reason?:. It can also be that at the current rate the buildings of new homes is slower than the demand is... And it have allways been rather expensive to have a home in Oslo... But some parts is less expensive than others...

You can use a "Lifetime" in most scandinavian contry's and even then just tutch the surface.. Have travelet somewhat in Norway over the years, but I am still amazed over the nature we are so lucy to have here.. We might not have some of the beatches and other featers that we all known from the US.. But dam we still have some of the wildest best natures here in Norway too.. Big forrest, lot of montains, and a lot of space to use.. And in Norway we have a old, old law, who still are in effect, who allow everyone within limits to use the forrest, and other nature as we please.. So it is a lot of hiking, a lot of walking and so on in most parts of Norway the year around.. And all this, is _rights_ that every norwigian, and others can use as they want it... SO, no one can close down large parts of the nature and claim it as their own.. Even that some have tried to do it in the past - but every time lost to "allemannsretten" (right of every man law) Who have at least been a part of the law since 1200s... (Lagebøterlovgivningen).

When it came to our healt care, as I point out I would rather have it that way, then to pay for it as I goes.. Yes it is expensive becouse we pay it true our taxes, and most american would cry "communist" if they was ever to know how mutch ordinary pepole in Norway pay in taxes.. But when need araise, it is good to know that we can get the help needed when in need of it.. And you would not be ruined in the prosess of been well... For the most parts then...

Diclotican

[Lucky Luciano]

160. Thanks for your response....

it makes me want to visit your country very much! I am very much an outdoors guy - I can hike for miles (kilos) and miles (kilos!) near the fjords and mountains and get a wonderful rush from it all...I may even make it up to Longyearbyen as well - I just love to get to hard to reach places and outposts....and it does not surprise me that you say a lifetime would not be enough to explore your country - I have no doubt....but alas, I must pick and choose!

[Diclotican]

162. Lucky Luciano

Lucky Luciano

Norway have some places who are very nice to visit.. I am not that a outdoor guy, but I do like to be outside then;).. And in most parts of Norway, you can get out to the forrest, with ease.. Even in Oslo, our capital, you can go to the forrest, just take the tram 20 minutes, and you are on the outhits of miles and miles of nature (in kilometeres off course).

If you want to visit Norway and get a rush from it all you should visit either Vestlandet (the west of Norway) or the north of Norway (Nord-Norge) There we have some of the roughest parts of the country at all. Deep walleyes, and big fjords who are deep down there somewhere.. Have been to the west coast, and it is amazing to look at... Even if it can't be the same some parts of the US, it is rather impressive:)

If you want to walk from outpost to outpost, we have a few mountains you can walk over, and as pointed out before, a lot of real nature to walk into if you want that;)

I have a feeling that a lifetime of exploring can be to little when everything goes.. Because you have all this seasons, who are giving the nature a whole new meaning.. In the winter, in the spring, in the summer, in the fall. You have all type of weather, and the nature is just amazing... Specially when you hike with a tent, and are waking up early in the morning, and you might experience a lot of animals walking true your path... Have experienced myself a Norwegian Moose who was walking on a path just behind the tent... Scary, but impressive.

Diclotican

[belpejic]

164. Norway has been smart about oil

Yes, it is an oil exporter, but it also has invested its oil profits in a public fund that has achieved outstanding returns. Instead of granting cheap-ass leases to private companies like the US and UK have done, with no real royalties, Norway did the responsible thing. And now it has hundreds of billions of dollars to invest in its citizens.

[Diclotican]

165. belpejic

belpejic

True, Norway as a country have been smart when it came to oil in the sea.. Compared to many other country - who have been on a spending spree for the last 50 year or so, and now, when oil is not that accessible again, then they discover the back side of the moon.. And it is not pretty when your economy tank big times..

Our Far right Party, FRP wanted in 1975 to sell the whole thing to Chell becouse they dosen't belive it to be to mutch oil out there anyway.. For 1 billion N.KR.. Today we have a found with petro dollar wort many billions... In Dollar, not in kroner..

Diclotican

[Turbineguy]

84. It has nothing to do with not helping neighbors.

I suspect that most in the U.S. who are against UHC have little or no idea what they are against. But conservatives seem to look at everything as a cost only, bad choices as freedom and destructive public policy as progress.

Our current health care system depends on its inefficiency for survival. Indeed, the economy would be in even more serious trouble if health care suddenly became more efficient. It would result in another 6 percent contraction at the very least.

[Wednesdays]

95. That excessive money not spent on healthcare would be spent elsewhere

...hence creating jobs, but in different sectors of the economy.

So, yeah. A lot of insurance bureaucrats would be laid off. :nopity:
But, they'll pick up jobs in another field.

[RC]

163. That would be scary.

What other field is ripe for picking us commoners clean?

"So, yeah. A lot of insurance bureaucrats would be laid off.
But, they'll pick up jobs in another field."

[wolfgangmo]

128. not necessarily

That hypothetical 6% is only true if you assume that the the money currently used to pay insurance parasites could not be better spent on crazy shit like doctors, nurses, etc.?

We could also take some of the graft money and direct it to places like green energy.

But of course we could just cower in the dark waiting for the next Rush show.

[gorfle]

86. The answer to your baffling question.

I guess that what baffles me with the US, is how a nation can refuse to help their neighbors when they can afford it. How can Americans who are against universal health care claim to be good citizens, to be good Christians (most of them), to be good human beings?

The answer is quite simple. One of the fundamental tenets of being an American is the concept of self-sufficiency. It was founded by people who were either self-sufficient or they died. People are expected to take care of themselves and their families themselves. It is generally considered shameful and a personal failing to accept charity. As my old high school economics professor used to say, "Everyone has the right to fail." The unspoken part was, "and it's not anyone's responsibility to rescue you if you do."

As a consequence of this ingrained sense of self-sufficiency, many Americans are highly resentful of people that they perceive as not being self-sufficient. When it comes to health care, the philosophy is, "I took care of my health care needs, why can't you take care of your health care needs?"

Another thing that puts a bad taste in many Americans' mouths concerning welfare is that usually everyone has to pay for the welfare projects but only the poor can use them. So you have a situation where the people paying for the services can't use the services they are paying for. This likewise breeds resentment. People are thus skeptical that they will end up paying for both their own health care and other people's health care.

What we need is to stop spending money on wars on terror and drugs, and eliminate the for-profit insurance plans and switch to a single-payer system that everyone can take advantage of.

We need a change of mentality that says no one should have to go bankrupt in this country over health issues. We need a change of mentality that says health services should have a higher priority that prosecuting people for using drugs or fighting wars over oil.

If we could create a program that fosters the idea that this is a collective program we all benefit from, like, say, our primary education system, it will go along way to smoothing the feelings of resentment.

[WhiteTara]

87. because Christian in this country

doesn't have to do with teachings of Christ. It's a sham code for patriarchal control,

[create.peace]

88. removed

removed

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

93. But, but .but Newt says that you have rationed health

care. That the government decides if you get care - not the beancounters at the HMO's like here. That you have to wait for months to be treated.

[Diclotican]

121. REACTIVATED IN CT

REACTIVATED IN CT

O, we do?:.. When I need to go to a doctor - as I was in the spring got in the next day..Had the flue, and my asma was playing with me;/ And then a receipt to medicine.. If I have to make it to the emergency room.. Have to wait, because I was not THAT bad. Got in, get a check up, some medicine, and then receipt for a new medicine.. And then I am off...

Never have had some problems with either ER or my local Doctor. And I have always been "Un lucy" when it came to hurt myself, either I have broked something, OR i have cut myself, or other vice harmed myself doing stupid things.. At one point I was on first name with most doctors in my local ER because of all my fractures:banghead: But never had to wait for months to get treated.. Maybe a hour or two, but never months

But then Newt Gingrich and CO, wouldn't not recognize the idea of public healt care if it so bit them in the ass..

Diclotican

[reggie the dog]

96. you paid more than we would pay in France, but Norway sounds good too

In France you would pay for the cab ride too, Emergency care at the hospital is zero euro. ER is also refunded all but one euro. Meds rarely cost more than 5 euros. The USA is horrible. Most of Europe is good to great for health care.

[rasputin1952]

101. As much as we'd like to say we elect the best people to the

job, most of them are beholding to various well heeled financial aspects this nation provides.

Not too long ago, Rush Limbaugh was treated for oxycontin addiction, he likes to say he paid for the treatment, but of course, his insurance paid for the bulk of it. The way I figure it, those in his insurance pool paid for his treatment, as does virtually everyone who has insurance. Limbaugh, and those with health insurance pay a very small amount for their care, like under taxation, someone else pays for what they benefit from. With all of Limbaugh's money, he still expects others to pay, he's a cheap SOB, and if others can pay for what he needs or desires, he'll jump at it.

The point is, if we had single payer, ie universal medical care, everyone would benefit, bills would get paid, people would not have to ransom their souls to be treated, better yet, most would get preventative care! The big losers, insurance companies, and they are a very powerful group. They would lose tens of billions and would not be able to be so lavish with their buildings, offices and executive compensation. I have a problem when an insurance company spends $5000 on a desk, and someone can't be treated for a minor fracture or relatively easy disease to diagnose and treat.

Under Universal Health Care, one could still choose their physician, would still get the treatment and medications they need, and a check would be cut to pay the bill. Insurance, UHC, no difference really, except that hundreds of billions would be saved...and that's money that insurance companies don't get, invest and profit from.

There lies the problem...it's all about money.

[DollyM]

107. We have medical cards (medicaid) . . .

and there is not a day that goes by that I am not thankful for them. My husband is diabetic, has had cancer and numerous other health problems. He always seemed to land in jobs that did not provide insurance so we have hardly ever had it. When we have had it, the deductables and premiums were so high, we couldn't afford to use it! When we were able to get on Kid Care because of our son (Illinois) it was like being handed a life preserver. No more trying to wait out an illness or injury and seeing what it would do, no more trying to space out medication and make it last or just not filling prescriptions because it was simply too expensive. My husband got good, timely medical care because of the medical card and many of his medical problems were alleviated because of the fact that he could get good, timely medical care without us having to worry about how we were going to pay for it. Being able to get that health care helps avoid a host of problems later on. I don't see why our country can't figure that out.

[rasputin1952]

110. Glad to hear that things are working out for you medically...

The small amount of taxes that go helping others does not bother me in the least, I'm all for it. No one in this country should have to suffer simply because they can't afford medical care. When I was in the medical field, I helped to make changes in the hospital I worked at. Most of the medications the hospital used were so basic, but marked up to incredible heights, it seemed to me that ensuring that people who could not afford them, should still have access...a program was instituted to ensure people got what they needed. Being a Union Shop Steward helped a lot...getting the Union involved was a god-send...:D

Here's wishing you the best...and hoping you never have to use your healthcare network again...but I'm glad you're in the safety net if you ever do...:hug:

[Cleita]

113. Everybody should be able to get what you get.

Hopefully, someday it will happen.

[irislake]

103. Noam Chomsky reports

polls show Americans overwhelmingly support universal health care. Their politicians are owned by private insurance companies and Big Pharma. Don't pay attention to what corporate controlled mainstream media says.

A recent poll disclosed that a surprising number of Americans (almost half) do NOT think "socialism" is evil, bad and terrifying. That information must scare the corporate elite.

The big disconnect between the will of the people and the will of their elected representatives is why Noam Chomsky calls the U.S. "a failed state."

I thank my lucky stars for Canada's wonderful health care. No worries about how to pay.

It is nice to know that all Canadians are entitled to the same care. On the whole the American people are very generous and compassionate and they would sleep better at night too if they knew their fellow Americans are getting good care.

Don't be misled by the MSM. The American people want universal health care --- like YESTERDAY!

[sreid01]

104. Christian Nation

Your article is so on point that it's not funny! Our nation has eroded due to status and greed. Our churches have changed their message too to that of greed. We'll run hard after an extra dollar but turtle trot to visit the sick. Good article, this country has wrong priorities.
Orielly Auto Parts

[SkyDaddy7]

105. Yeah Right!!!!

...Well, the "BRAND" of Christianity most practice here in the US has nothing to do with helping the poor or loving thy neighbor...Christians in America are more into Bronze Age Ideas like Torture, war b4 diplomacy, hating thy neighbor while coveting their posesssions (and wife), and an utter disdain for the poor, disabled & elderly.

I had no idea there was a Christianity that was different? Not in America!

[JuniperLea]

108. Do you mind my asking what percentage your taxes are?

I'm currently paying roughly 35%, and I make about a dollar an hour less than you do.

Norway seems like a fairytale land to me! Beautiful. It's number one on my list of places I'd beg to become a citizen:)

Way off topic... I'm a huge Knut Hamsun fan:) I'm slowly working my way through his works after being given Victoria by a Norwegian pal from Oslo.

[KitSileya]

147. We have roughtly equal taxes....actually

I pay 36%, since I'm single and earn relatively much. (I earn about the average of a Norwegian worker, except I'm young and haven't worked for very long, and will climb pretty well in salary in the next 30 years.) We have progressive tax I think it's called, where the more you earn, the more you pay percentage-wise. However, whenever I manage to live somewhat frugally, I live on 70% of my after-tax monthly income, even with the "hidden taxes" we have here in Norway - the sales taxes on certain items. 25% on pretty much everything - 12.5% on food items. Lots, lots more on alcohol, tobacoo, and sugar. (And since I don't smoke, and don't drink, only the sugar one is of any consequence for me. Except I need to modify my diet after this gallbladder inflammation.)

As for Knut Hamsun.... well...we were forced to read 'Hunger' in high school, and that must have been the most boring book I ever read - it was sooooo narcissistic, I felt. I had also to read 'Pan' (I'm unsure of the English title) at uni, and I still didn't see the appeal. I've had friends read passages from 'Fruits of the Earth' (not sure if that's the English title) in rapture at the poetry of it, but no. I think my dislike for Knut Hamsun is caused a lot by the fact that I was reading my way thru the shelves of concentration camp survivor autobiographies when I was introduced to him. As you may know, Knut Hamsun supported the nazis during WWII. As a teenager, that was more than I could tolerate.

[prairierose]

109. Kitselya, those are very good questions....

they are ones I ask myself regularly.

[beyurslf]

114. My co-pay for an ER visit is $100 and then I have fees on top of that.

It is easily $500 for a visit (and no stay) at the ER.

[AllyCat]

119. Plus your insurance premiums and paying for all the folks who have no ins.

and have to use the ER when things get "really bad". Our medical system sucks. It is uncivil, unjust, unfair, and immoral.

[xchrom]

115. man, does that sound good. nt

[Diclotican]

116. KitSileya

KitSileya

True, Have been to hospital myself a couple of times the last 4-5 year.. Some stomage problems they have not figured out yet - but I would rather have my "bad" universial healt care than a more "Private" healt care system.. Where you have to pay as you goes.. It might cost like 250-280kr at the ER, but when you are in need of a hospital bed and some care.. What comfortable it is then to know, that it is "free".. That we dosen't have to worry about the price after...

First time I was, I was right to the Emergency room, becouse of some really bad stomage problems.. And I was in a rather bad shape.. And got the whole 9 yard treatment.. Was really sick, and was told next day, that I might should have came before with the problem, becouse it could have endend rather badly with me at the moment I was admitted.. And I guess that the medicine I got, was rather expensive.. But the problem in the stomage was fixed, even that they never really know what was the problem in the first place.. But the "hole" was goon, and they was just not finding the problem when they was probing down my troath - and the other side upwards.. And the doctor in sharge was giving me a LONG list of what I could eat, and what i DON'T could eat.. And off course, everything I really like was on the "do not eat" list... But with a new diet, the whole problem somewhat disapeared... For some times then back with the same problem a couple of months ago. Was there some days, to be controlled.. Boored as hell I might say.. Hospital are for the real sick peopole if you ask me.. But the nurses was great, and some of them was I might say also prettyB-) Specially one of them, who had the most beatifully brown Ayes I have ever seen. If not in a hospital I have might dear to ask the woman out..

Our system is not perfect, but I would say I would rather pay my taxes, and if need arise have the healt care I can get - for "free" rather a system where I could posible go broke when admitted to a hospital.. And it too baffles my mind, that US can,and would have a system who refuse to help their naightbors when they can afford it.. It confuses me, and baffles my mind, that a country can refuse to have a public healt care system, and be the only one in the world who still dosen't have some sorts of universal healt care.. Even Cuba, who are a rather poor country have as an princip to have a public healt care system.. Even that it can fail sometimes, it must be better than the opposite?

Diclotican

ps, god 1 mai dag til deg

[AllyCat]

118. KS, you and me both. You and me both

"I guess that what baffles me with the US, is how a nation can refuse to help their neighbors when they can afford it. How can Americans who are against universal health care claim to be good citizens, to be good Christians (most of them), to be good human beings?"

I am a nurse in a busy WI obstetrical unit. I am constantly amazed at the number of fellow nurses (lucky enough to have insurance due to our labor union which constantly has to fight for it)...they walk into the nurse's lounge and talk about "can you believe all these Mexicans who get free care at my expense???" and "I'm tired of paying for drug addicts to have their babies". Argh!!!

What should the drug addicts do? Have their babies in the streets with no one to help them? What about the poor little babies who, through no fault of their own, have parents who are addicted or are poor, or have no money, or have come here legally or illegally? Should women from somewhere other than the U.S. be denied decent obstetrical care??

I envy your system in Norway (and just about everywhere other than here). I delivered messages to my senators yesterday asking them for such an option for the U.S. But it seems people here are too worried about...what? Being taken advantage of? I don't know. I am at a loss for why we would not want everyone to have access to good care.

Thanks for your post. Your country appears more humane than ours. Your attitude shows a concern about someone other than you.

[KamaAina]

125. I was going to guess Canada

but I certainly knew it wasn't in The Greatest Country In The World(TM) :sarcasm:

[jeve]

127. Americans - the majority will not provide universal anything if they think poor or minority benefit

If we had a homogenous population, we would have everything Europeans have. Because the population is not homogeneous the majority population does not wish to pay for anything that would help others not like themselves. Tribalism. Schizophrenia. We have a long history in this country of this. jeve

[Born_A_Truman]

153. Welcome to DU jeve!

[juvpubdef]

129. comparisons

I currently live in Louisiana, but when my children were born, I happened to be living in Cologne, Germany. I was not in the military service, but happen to be married to a German citizen, so as we both worked, and both paid into that system, the births of our children were covered by German health insurance. On each occasion, we were lucky enough that the births were relatively uncomplicated, but still, my wife, and infant child were able to remain in the hospital for several days. Then, when they did come home, we received daily visits from a midwife practitioner, who monitored the children's' care and development, for as long as we felt we needed her input. (Although we didn't need her for very long, she would have been available to help us with child related medical issues up to the child's 18th birthday.) Other than our very reasonable health insurance and tax costs, we paid nothing at all.

On one occasion, when I went to the pharmacy to get a prescription filled for my son, I went to the cash register to pay for his medication. I don't know who was more surprised-me, at the fact that, because he was a child, his medication was free, or the cashier, who didn't understand my confused attempt to pay.

Now that we live in the US, and our children are going through normal childhood, we have had the unfortunate opportunity to compare the current German system to the current American system. Recently, my son received a cut on his forehead while playing with a friend. We took him to the emergency room (it was a Saturday evening), and while he was lucky enough to require only a butterfly bandage, rather than stitches, that visit cost nearly $1500 out of pocket. At the time, I was employed by the state, and had a relatively good insurance plan.

During a subsequent summer, while visiting his grandparents in Germany, my son fell out of a tree and broke his wrist. Two pins were surgically implanted, and later removed. During the healing process, he had to go to the doctor's office twice, and had to be x-rayed. Because we did not live in Germany, we were not covered by health insurance there. The entire cost of the treatment of his broken arm, including the two surgical procedures, and several office visits with x-rays, was slightly less than the bill for the emergency room treatment of his small cut.

[AllyCat]

130. Wow, this is a great narrative of part of what is wrong with our system

It's amazing we have such expensive obstetrical care in this country, but our infant and maternal mortality rates are some of the worst in the world. This is a case in point. We are kicked out of the hospital after 48 hours (oh you get THREE whole days after a c-section...oohhh!). Aside from a periodic check in with the pediatrician, there is no other care. Most insurance will not cover a lactation consultant or any other type of care. It's appalling. I read about a single woman in NYC I think. She lived alone and had a baby. Was discharged after the requisite 2 days. About 2 weeks later, she didn't show up for the baby's appointment with the pediatrician and a little longer after that, someone called the police. The woman had died of a late-onset, post-partum hemorrhage (she bled to death). The baby died of starvation.

This country is inhuman in its care of people. We generally don't give a rat's ass what happens to anyone else, just so they are "personally responsible".

Welcome to DU by the way!

[Born_A_Truman]

154. Welcome to DU juvpubdef

[npk]

132. The chief complaint I hear is that we (USA) can't afford it

The biggest opposition to Universal Health care that I keep hearing is that the USA is too big, with too many people, for a tax payer based system of nationalized health care to work. That the wealthy would be paying disproportionately higher taxes than the lower income earners for roughly the same quality of health care. I do not know if Nationalized Health care would work in the USA. I don't understand enough about the process. I hope the president gives some more details in the future. I agree that everyone needs good health care that they can afford.

[OhioBlue]

133. When I had my son, my 3 night stay cost about $2k with insurance

I have pretty decent insurance actually. My pregnancy spanned 2 calendar years - So I met my deductible the first year and then again the second year - except it was tiered. We didn't pay anything for the first $500, then 100% for the next $200 (I think - it keeps changing) then something like 80:20 until you max out around $1k I thought... But I ended up with about $2k after insurance payments and write downs. We do pay a lot for perscriptions - so that was probably it. Or maybe I maxed out for myself and the baby... Anyway... even with good insurance in the U.S., ya still gotta pay way more than $137.

[ms liberty]

134. K&R. Your post should be emailed to every American...n/t

[brettdale]

135. I spent a week in hospital in 2006

Cost me nothing, I guess my tax dollars here in NewZealand were going to good use. :-)

[pengillian101]

137. Norway

Hey, KitSileya (maybe cousin of mine ;-)) --- my family originated in Bergen and Vik. Then they ended up in Wisconsin, USA more than a century ago.

Nice to see ya :hi: Take care!

[kpominville]

139. Same Stay in America cost me over $10,000

Just last month, I spent 3 nights in the local hospital here in Michigan and it cost me $10,147.00.

[Muttocracy]

141. one of my friends broke a bone while living in Norway

and still says to this day that, if he had to break a major bone at some point in life, he's glad it happened in Norway!

[PhatBrett]

142. On the 4th of July

.. I had blue cross health insurance who only pays 50% of your emergency room visits before you meet your deductible. I cut my finger with a steak knife on the 4th and had to have 3 stitches. What did my local hospital charge me for the visit? $850!!!! I had to pay $500 out of pocket and as a struggling college student it was not very nice

[Born_A_Truman]

155. Welcome to DU PhatBrett

Hope I haven't missed anyone--lots of new posters on this thread.

[JCMach1]

152. I agree- Medical bill for family hospital stays are $0

Also in the UAE they give free bed and meals to the family member who is staying with the patient.

It's way past time for America to grow-up about the health care issue.

[mwooldri]

157. It baffles me too.

This is why the USA needs UK NHS-style healthcare introduced for everyone to provide a basic level of healthcare. Private healthcare can fill in the luxuries.

[Oregone]

166. More than my monthly family premium

[NYC_SKP]

167. 45 minutes in an American ER cost me 3X that WITH Insurance.

A painful and swollen parotid gland, drove myself there at 3am.

My minimal COBRA really only covers catastrophic costs and some of the routine care. $400/month for an individual.