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We used torture to obtain FALSE CONFESSIONS.

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jocapo Donating Member (230 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:43 AM
Original message
We used torture to obtain FALSE CONFESSIONS.
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 11:53 AM by jocapo
The republicans are arguing that they are essentially using torture for good like Jack Bauer does on 24, the "ticking time bomb" scenario. But we now know the truth, they are using it like the North Koreans or North Vietnamese to obtain false confessions.

I've known for a long time that we were lied into war by the Bush administration. I've known for a long time that the Bush administration tortured. What is new to me is that they tortured to obtain FALSE CONFESSIONS linking Al Qa-ida and Iraq in order to make their case for the war in Iraq. We took our enemies' unspeakable torture techniques that they used to obtain false confessions for propaganda purposes, reverse engineered them, and created the SERE program. My understanding is that the SERE program was used to teach our field personnel to withstand the torture techniques that are now being used as they were originally intended.

Will the republicans really continue to defend this when that becomes clear?
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. that's the side of this that the War Drum Media Establishment doesn't want to touch
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, and what the right wing FAIL to mention that it's only the "upper tier" of military
who are selected to attend SERE training. These are pilots and others who have a high probability of being captured on enemy territory.

Everyone who I have known who has endured survival training does NOT condone torture. It's against what our father's fought for (moral civility) as part of our National Identity. Yes, often time in the past people have crossed the line, but LEGALLY we all knew that "The Geneva Conventions" applies 100% when we were active duty military.

My first inkling that the Bush Administration was circumventing International Law treaties was when an official was quoted as stating that "The Geneva Conventions was QUAINT. That's just SICK! There's a special place in hell for those who defend the indefensible ... water boarding is torture.

Anyone who has been trained in the basics of Military Intelligence Interrogations knows that you develop "a relationship" with the prisoner and conduct a series of interviews. In between those interviews, you compile information gleaned from other captives.

Interrogation is "a process" NOT an violent scene from the fictional drama "24."

IMO, the representatives who *talk the loudest* and *act the proudest* have not ever served a day in the Military. :grr:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. Wrong. We used torture to punish.
Just for shits and giggles.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Because the chicken hawks running our policy from the bowels of the Pentagon wanted
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 11:59 AM by ShortnFiery
to get their warmongering "rocks off." It must have been during the off season of their beloved fantasy series "24" ... where every circumstance is "a ticking time bomb" and they could dream (and watch 94 TAPES!) about being bad asses conducting torture operations like their erotic hero, "Jack Bauer." :puke:
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree, obtaining false confessions is the primary reason.
There may be many reasons why torture was introduced, including those outlined in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

including the training and desensitization of those conducting the torture.

But the primary reason was to obtain false confessions.

This, however, was not known to those responsible for the torture itself.

You ask "Will the republicans really continue to defend this when that becomes clear," and my answer is they will fight tooth and nail through their denial to make sure that NEVER becomes clear. Moreover, what I've seen so far is that it isn't only Republicans who are in denial. Virtually everyone outside a small minority have accepted the Bush-Cheney originated, Commission underscored and media perpetuated myth that is used as an EXCUSE for this torture and the "war on terror" in general.
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jocapo Donating Member (230 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Agreed..
the post shouldn't say "they" (republicans) it should say "WE" (all Americans) because all Americans own this now. I hope that "we" can come together as a unified nation and lance this boil and I'm optimistic that we will.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Very well, but how? How do we "lance this boil"?
How do we show that FALSE CONFESSIONS were not only given, but needed?
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jocapo Donating Member (230 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Sunshine
Investigate, release as much as possible and prosecute ANYONE that should be prosecuted. I, for one, trust Obama to follow the constitution and I'd be happy with that.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Very well, here is one very good example:
Excerpted from this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

...

Eventually, a malnourished, dehydrated, and wounded (in the leg) Lindh was taken prisoner along with a group of Taliban fighters by American forces.

At that point, when the Americans discovered they had an American amont their captives, Lindhs situation worsened dramatically. Stripped naked and duct-taped, blindfolded, to a gurney, he was then placed inside an unheated metal shipping container. Left there for days in the cold and dark, Lindh was removed once daily and interrogated. His interrogators allegedly tortured him, as well as threatening him repeatedly with death. His pleas to see an attorney were mocked, and word that his parents had already arranged for representation was withheld from him (a situation that led a government lawyer involved in his case to protest and ultimately resign).

At some point during this abuse, Lindh caved in to his fears of death at the hands of his captors and signed a confession to being a traitor to America. At that point he was flown back to the US, where Attorney General Ashcroft touted him as the American Taliban, initially vowing to try him for treason (which carries a death sentence).

What changed things dramatically, as I reported in 2005, was a decision by Federal District Judge T.S.Ellis to permit Lindh and his defense teamover strenuous government objections--to challenge that confession letter by introducing evidence that Lindh had signed it will being subjected to torture at Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan. The judge ruled that Lindh would be able to call witnesses from Guantanamo and from among the soldiers where he had been held in Afghanistan. Suddenly, the Justice Department, in the person of Michael Chertoff, then head of the Justice Departments criminal division and in charge of terrorism prosecutions, offered a one-day-only, take-it-or-leave-it a plea deal. Chertoff (acting with an alacrity that stands in marked contrast to his sluggish response time several years later when faced, as secretary of homeland security, with the Katrina disaster in New Orleans) offered to drop the serious charges in return to a guilty plea to the two minor charges, but only ifand this is the keyLindh would cancel the scheduled evidentiary hearing into torture. Under the offered deal, Lindh would also have to sign a letter stating that he had not been intentionally mistreated by his American captors, and waiving any right to claim such mistreatment or torture any time in the future. Lindh agreed, but following sentencing, Chertoff also added a gag order, technically a special administrative measure, barring Lindh from even talking about his experience for the duration of his sentence.

It is now clear why Chertoff went to such hurried great lengths to completely silence Lindh. His wasnt just the first trial in the War on Terror. Lindh was the first victim of the secret Bush/Cheney torture program.

...


Emphasis added.
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priller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Torture always ends up being a political tool
Since it's not reliable for intelligence gathering (it's supposed purpose), torture always ends up being used as a political tool -- to extract false confessions for propaganda purposes, or to terrorize and threaten political enemies.


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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. BINGO. They needed a FALSE confession about Saddam and Al Qaeda
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Are you sure that is the ONLY reason they needed false confessions? n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. I think that's right. n/t
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ah, but they got the 'right' answers.

Which was the purpose of the interrogators. Kind of like the Inquisition.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. Absolutely without question. That's what it's been used for FOREVER.
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 12:45 PM by TahitiNut
McCain's treatment at the Hanoi Hilton to "brainwashing" during the Korean War all the way back to Salem Witch Trials and the Spanish Inquisition ... it's ALWAYS used to get people to say what they actually believe is FALSE!

A person will say ANYTHING to stop the torture! That's the SOLE purpose.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. "The 9/11 commissioners violated the Convention Against Torture."
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