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Is it just me or are new cars WAYYYYYYYY overpriced?

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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 01:56 PM
Original message
Is it just me or are new cars WAYYYYYYYY overpriced?
I was considering buying a new car (Chevy Malibu) but after doing some shopping and seeing the prices I am thinking...WTF?!

I would like to do my part to help American companies but dayum! I can not afford this!

I would think that if the prices were a little more reasonable...

Oh and BTW...a similar style Japanese car is in the same price range...go figure (no legacy or union costs...wtf is up with that?)
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, I'm very disappointed with the high prices of both the new Prius and Insights.
They're cost prohibitive for average working Americans.

Can't they make a hybrid and/or E car that is small and around $15,000 instead of $22,000?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. LOL. Foreign cars are too much for working Americans to afford. Wonder if there's a connection?
:hi:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
103. I'm a working American and I own a Camry which has the same wheel base
and interior space of a Prius, and costs as much. Don't make the mistake of comparing a Prius to a Corolla or a Yaris; that's like comparing a Ford Fiesa to a Ford Taurus and expecting them to be the same price.
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. I was looking, too ... and I was surprised.
I really can't afford a new car, but my 10 year old coupe is slowly becoming a money pit, so I priced a few last month. Damn! Even last year's leftover stock was high priced! :-(
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. I was looking at Malibu as well, but crap... $24,000.00 plus... Don't think so... n/t
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I know...
It's not like I am shopping for a Caddy...it's a friggin Malibu!

My first house 10 years ago cost me 49000...a new car today is half that!

I would thing that if the govt really wanted to help the auto industry, they could subsidize the purchase of a new car...
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. My Malibu is about 2 months old. It was $19,500 out the door.
Including tax and everything. I had a $4000 trade in. Top of the line LTZ. My first house was $17000 so my new car cost more. We looked at other cars and felt Malibu was the best value for what they were giving us. I'm happy with it.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
56. Subsidize the purchase of a new car? You've got to be fucking kidding
Seriously, why should the government subsidize someone's bad habit?

I'd like a government subsidy for the beer and smokes I consume.

How would that be justified?

I do smoke American cigarettes and drink American beer.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #56
113. well for you we could
subsidze a new bike purchase and helmet for the big head and some extra padding for the chip on your shoulder and a carrier for the ax you carry around...ya know the one you grind all the time....
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. So when a question can't be answered just resort to a personal attack?
Cool
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carlyhippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
124. The Malibu was the only "car" we looked at when auto shopping last summer
I ended up buying an Xterra for the same price. The gas mileage would have been better with the Malibu, but we would have all been squeezed like sardines in the cabin and the vision of me trying to shovel the car out of the snow in -40 degree weather quickly changed my mind.
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Cary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Get a car that's a couple of years old.
Let someone else take that first two years or so of depreciation.

Why not?
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. With the new programs from GM
Equity guarantee and job loss program...I thought why not...but no friggin way now!
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Cary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I have 138,000 miles on my 1999 Volvo S70 T5.
I love it! Every mile is like money in my pocket and I love not having a new car.

Door dings? No problem.

I own it. It doesn't own me. :)
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kaygore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
107. That's how I felt about my 1987 Camry--which is still in great shape
When I bought my Prius in 2007, I sold my Camry with 92,000 miles and in mint condition to a friend who is still driving it and loving it!

My first car was a Malibu and I loved that one too. I drove it until it died.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
95. The price drops the minute you drive that new car off the lot, basically!
I have to agree. Find a place you trust, and get a "slightly used" one!
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Agree. Anything mid-sized is ridiculous.
Why is it that I can get a ford Focus fully trimmed for under 20K but the next size up with the same trim is nearly 10K more? It can't possibly cost that much more to make it. It seems like car companies have this obsession with making most of their cars in the 30-40K range.

And don't even get me started on hybrids. The car companies are trying their best to kill that market, at least the US ones are.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. So buy a lease return.
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 02:05 PM by Codeine
Typically they still run great, are in good condition, and have been dealer-maintained. You aren't paying for depreciation, so you save a ton.
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Yes, I just did in January
Paid under blue book too!
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. they load up a lot more options as standard now...
and buying pre-owned (16-28 months) and letting the new buyer take the depreciation hit is usually the smart move...
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. I've never purchased a *new* car. Only cars 1-2 years old.
It's a much better value.
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Uben Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
157. Me too!
I am a millionaire and can afford most any car I desire, but I have never bought a brand new car. It just isn't economically feasible. You lose $4-6k driving it off the lot. Screw that! I buy em with less than 20K miles and drive em till they have about 70K, then sell and get another. That's about five years for me.

I don't think being able to say, "I bought a brand new car!" for a year, is worth the $6-10k it's gonna cost you. I save money, that's why I have so much!
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. I bought my car when it was 8 months old, 6k miles.
25% off the original sticker. I wanted a very specific car, so I had to wait to find her. Very happy with my purchase. Unless I was buying a supercar, I'll likely never buy any car brand new.

That said, my brother just bought a brand new car (BMW). Because new car sales are sooooo bad, he got a GREAT deal on his trade, and 0% financing. He did quite well. Deals are out there.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
84. We paid 16K (& change) for a $35,000 car..less than 12K miles on it
It was 2 model yrs old, but was put on the road on Dec 31st of the 1st yr, so it was only a year old.. the warranty 5 yr time will run out well before we put 50K on ..

Nicest car we have ever had, and a bargain too, especially since we paid cash for it :)

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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hyundai...incredible amount of car for the money, Consumer Reports top choices
The Elantra and The Santa Fe are both great cars, for way less than any American or Japanese car. The new Hyundai's aren't the pieces of shit they were when the were introduced many years ago. Elantra and Santa Fe are both recommended by Consumer Reports. Both have 100,000 mile warranties. Hell, our warranties even cover batteries and tires at 60,000.

I have a friend who drives an Infiniti crossover, and the first time he drove with us in our Sante Fe he was shocked...said if he had known it was that nice he wouldn't have spent the extra $20,000.

.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. And fuck union labor in your own country, right?
And we wonder why we're in a fucking shambles. :puke:
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moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Problem is....
the American companies are paying their employees twice what the foreign manufacturers are and creating a car that is half the quality. I'd love to buy American, but I can't afford to pay for the repairs that come from their shoddy work.

I'm still driving my 1989 Accord and my 1995 Camry and they have NEVER been a problem. The two Dodges that I owned prior to that were nothing but grief and crapped out after 6 years...
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. So you're comparing 80's vintage American cars
to what's made now, and you think you've posited a valid argument? Read the literature -- American cars are just as reliable as foreign-made stuuf.

And hell, you can always by some of the Japanese nameplates made by properly-compensated American union labor:

Mazda6
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder
Mitsubishi Galant
Toyota Corolla
Mazda B-Series Pickup
Toyota Tacoma

You're a victim of old arguments and old ideas that haven't been valid in at least a decade.
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moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Just basing it on my own experience,
what I've read in Consumer Reports, and what I see my friends going through. According to Consumer Reports, ALL of the American car companies have more mechanical issues than Honda and Toyota.

... somehow, those two companies have figured out how to make a consistently great car. When the American companies are paying their employees twice as much, and paying their employees to sit on the bench, it's almost impossible to imagine how they could put out a comparable product for the same price..
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
55. Hmmmmm..... I've been a member about 4 years longer than you -
just have one or two better things to do than chat very often. Looking at your posts in this thread, you're awfully quick to accuse anyone that dares to disagree with you as being some type of union-hating Anti-American.

Most people I know are in the same boat as I am - we just want a good quality car that fits our needs. If the American companies could come close to producing a comparable product we'd all line up to buy them. They can't. Unfortunately, my pockets are not deep enough to subsidize their inferior products.

I buy American when and where I can - all of my household appliances, my furniture - virtually everything else. But, then again.... those products measure up.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. American autoworkers are NOT paid "twice as much". That's RW propaganda.
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 04:36 PM by Romulox


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moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Your nonsense doesn't hurt my feelings at all -
in fact it just makes me feel a bit sorry for you and our country as a whole. That is, if we can't acknowledge our own shortcomings, we have no hope of correcting them...
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. And your lack of basic fact-checking isn't a shortcoming?
:hi:
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #60
109. OK ... It's time to put your money where your mouth is ....
It's time to produce:

SHOW us what 'foreign' car workers make, and then show what 'domestic' car workers make, and show how they are twice as much ...

Do NOT include pension contributions for retirees ....

It is easy to blurt out terms like 'twice as much', but we would like to see your numbers now, just so we can be sure you know what you are talking about ...
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #55
111. Duck-quack
But you did blame the worker, for shoddy workmanship. I was in quality control my entire working life. Republicans always blame the worker for quality issues(and every issue), but I know the truth. Workers will build exactly the quality management wants.
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moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #111
143. I don't give a shit who's to blame.
If the quality sucks, I'm not going to buy it.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #143
147. How about you end your
right wing talking points of how it is shoddy workmanship? This feeds into Reich Wing claims of lazy American workers that don't care. And nothing could be further from the truth.
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moez Donating Member (638 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. The facts just don't back you up

Quality is spotty. Sure, Ford and GM have made meaningful gains in quality and reliability, but their offerings are still hit or miss. In the U.S. News new-car rankings, for instance, the Chevy Malibu and Ford Fusion rank in the top 5 in their category. But there's neither a Ford nor Chevy that cracks the top 15 in affordable small cars. In Consumer Reports' reliability rankings, 7 of the 10 lowest nameplates are domestic, while all of the top 10 nameplates are foreign. As for Chrysler, the government's automotive task force highlighted "the inferior quality of its existing product portfolio" to help explain why Chrysler's prospects as a standalone automaker are weak. Who wants to gamble with qualityand pay a high price for guessing wrong?

There's nothing special about the cars. Okay, so a few rank as high as Toyotas, Hondas, or other standard-setters. So what. There's intense competition throughout the car business, and there's virtually no category where GM, Ford or Chrysler offers a must-have vehicle that's markedly better than what other carmakers offer. So why take the chance with a domestic model when you're safer buying an import brand?


http://www.usnews.com/blogs/flowchart/2009/04/01/5-reas...

Both my Accord and Odyssey were made by American workers.... quite well, I might add....
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #150
153. Are you intentionally ignoring what I said?
I made no claims about quality. My beef with you is your claim of shoddy workmanship. Why don't your American Honda workers do shoddy workmanship? The quality problem of American cars has nothing to do with shoddy workmanship, it has everything to do with the designs, both product and manufacturing processes, and how much emphasis management places on quality. If management chooses to put production before quality, quality will suffer. I've lived it.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. My POS 2005 Dodge Caravan would disagree,
When your brake PADS last longer than your brake ROTORS, you're dealing with a crap car.

All else being equal, I'll buy a car made with American union labor over a foreign made car any day. But all else must be equal.

My priorities, when buying a car, are as follows: 1. Does it fit the role I'll be utilizing it for? 2. Is it friendly to the environment (low emissions)? 3. Is it friendly to my wallet? 4. Is it reliable?

The last time I bought a new car (2006), I built my list using those priorities. I needed an AWD/4WD vehicle that would handle well in the dirt and snow (I live in the country and ski), seat five comfortably for 1500 mile road trips, and carry lots of cargo. I wanted really good gas mileage 25MPG+ and low emissions. I wanted something that had been out a while and had a track record of dependability. I wanted something that wasn't insanely expensive, but had lots of options (under $30k). It turned out that, in 2006, there were only a few cars that met those criteria, and none were American. I ended up buying a Subaru Forester SULEV with a factory tow package, leather, heated seats, upgraded stereo, a panoramic roof, a second mat set (one carpet set for regular use, and a rubber raincatcher set for rough duty use), and a ton of other features for $26k out the door including taxes and fees. The dealer even tossed in an optional kayak carrier at no charge.

Sorry, as much as I'd like to support union labor, there simply isn't a single American car that can match that, feature for feature, at that price. The only thing that even came remotely close at that time was the Jeep Liberty, and we found the back seats uncomfortable (bad juju on those 1500 mile trips), the mileage awful, and the emissions atrocious (the guy at the dealership actually LAUGHED when I asked if they had a SULEV/LEV version). Where the Subaru salesman had offered a free kayak carrier and all weather kit, the Jeep salesman looked at me like I was some kind of scam artist when I asked him to throw in a set of rubber floormats and refused to even discount optional accessories.

I will not apologize for buying the Subie.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. I support outsourcing IT for exactly the same reasons you don't support Labor.
Because it puts a couple extra bucks in my pocket. :hi:
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. You didn't read my post...
I not only SUPPORT labor, I work PROMOTING labor. But...

I've ALWAYS bought American cars, and own a Saturn, too. But, like the other posters, when my last American car crapped out, I couldn't even trade it in...the dealers didn't even want it, and the prices/sizes/features of the American-made offerings simply could not match those of the Hyundais.

Contrary to what you're asserting, Hyundai didn't put a couple extra bucks in my pocket. They didn't take out a couple of extra bucks that I didn't have and couldn't afford.

:hi:

.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. You support Labor with actions. Your words are empty. nt
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Your head is empty. I DO support unions through my actions.
.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. When you are extolling the virtues of Hyundais on this message board you mean?
:rofl:
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Very different situation.
In the case of IT outsourcing, price is the ONLY difference. American workers can match Indian or Chinese workers tit for tat on every service they offer, the Chinese simply do it cheaper.

I actually paid MORE money for my Forester than I would have spent on the Liberty. Price wasn't the sticking point...comfort, reliability, efficiency, and environmental friendliness were. I'm perfectly willing to spend more for a better product, but it MUST genuinely be a better fit. I could have saved money by buying the Liberty, but would have ended up with a vehicle less suited to my practical requirements and social preferences.

I actually was a little torn on the "supporting labor" vs. "supporting the environment" point, but as a tree-hugging, smog hating liberal my priorities there were already fairly well established.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. LOLOL. Of course it is! Because it affects you and your state.
"In the case of IT outsourcing, price is the ONLY difference. American workers can match Indian or Chinese workers tit for tat on every service they offer, the Chinese simply do it cheaper."

Debatable, at best. In any event, what difference does it make? You don't support American workers for your reasons, and I won't support American workers for mine. This double standard crap you propose will never fly. :hi:
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
120. And I Support Outsourcing IT and Buying 12 Year Old Used Cars
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 06:53 AM by NashVegas
For the same reasons.

Especially IT people who support file trading and free media.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #120
126. I love this. It's a circle of economic darwinism! I support P2P because creative types
all drive Lexuses and Beemers! :hi:
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #126
155. You Think So?
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 04:16 PM by NashVegas
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
148. And many owners of
Chrysler mini-vans have found great reliabilty. There are examples running around in my area with hundreds of thousands of miles.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
110. You are completely wrong!
Any quality deficiencies are a result of design issues, not SHODDY workmanship. Don't bring that Reich Wing worker hating philosophy in here.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
135. Really?
I've a 1998 Ford F150 that I bought new and have never had a day's worth of problem with it. I'm JUST NOW buying new brakes for it. I'm not sure where you're getting "half the quality" as this vehicle has been an absolute jewel to own and drive.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Not at all. I do a lot of work promoting unions
But I couldn't get anywhere close to the deal I got on these cars, and I didn't have the money to buy something more expensive. And no one wanted to give me more than $500 for my Oldsmobile Bravada, which was an absolute, total piece of crap. These two Hyundais are the first non-American cars I've ever purchased. We bought a 2002 Saturn for our son, and it is a pretty good car.

Don't be so quick to judge.

.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. LOL. Some of my BEST friends are union members!
You're transparent. :hi:
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. That's not at all what I said.
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 04:17 PM by Atman
You don't know anything about me. From the Teamsters to SEIU, I've done a lot more to promote unions and labor -- including ONLY using union printers instead of cheaper Chinese printers or non-union shops -- than you're doing sitting here bitching at people on a message board. And when I say promoting, I don't mean just using union shops...I mean, actually doing work FOR the unions. SO piss off.

If you only knew...but you don't really care, you just seem to enjoy making presumptions about that which you clearly know nothing.. Good for you.

.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Non-union printers are cheaper. Why should I support YOUR labor if you don't support MINE?
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Keep swingin' for the fences! You're striking out every time.
Like I said, I don't "support" unions just by using union shops. I actually do work FOR unions, creating promotional campaigns and GOTV drives and informational literature.

People acting as you do, being a petulant prick who won't listen to a word anyone else has to say, is part of the reason many people are down on unions. I, however, am not one of them. I didn't buy an American car because none that I looked at met my needs in the price range I could afford with the warranty and Consumer Reports recommendations that I was able to get.

It's not 'extra bucks in my pocket.' It was NOT throwing out extra bucks I didn't have.

.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. It defies imagination that you keep on trying to bolster your union cred
while shilling for a company (Hyundai) that exclusively uses scab labor. :hi:
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. No imagination needed. Just a modicum of honesty and intelligence.
You apparently lack both.

When I bought my cars, I was in a much different place in my life. Money WAS the object. No American car could offer me the value of the humble little Elantra hatchback. The closest thing to what we were looking for/needed was a Pontiac Vibe, which is actually just a Toyota. And it costs thousands more than the Elantra. We couldn't even unload our Oldsmobile in trade, so we kept it for another year as every single system on it failed, from windshield wipers to electric windows. Oh, and it got 17mpg on a good day.

Finally, we had to get rid of the Oldsmobile. It was costing us way too much money. But we couldn't find any similar vehicles in the size/price range...and Hyundai offered us $4000 in "loyalty rebates." Don't you get it? Unions are great, I believe in and support them, and I actually work for them. And while I no longer have to rely on the hand-to-mouth lifestyle of a freelancer, I don't see why anyone would spend $4000-6000 MORE for any product that didn't meet their needs. Now I have two late model cars that are awesome, and I couldn't trade them in if I wanted to...I still owe too much on them. What the hell do you want me to do, smart-boy? I pay my karmic debt by working hard to support and promote unions, including the one YOU belong to. But I still have to make my car payments, and I have no regrets for buying what suited ME best at that particular time in my life when American car companies couldn't offer me a similar product at a competitive price.

Post all the smilies you want. My first concern was for MY FAMILY, not yours.

.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #72
118. I don't think you get it: I don't care any more about you and yours than you care me
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 06:51 AM by Romulox
and my community.

"I pay my karmic debt by working hard to support and promote unions, including the one YOU belong to."

I don't belong to any union. And you don't support and promote unions by buying products made with scab labor. :hi:
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #118
139. BTW, Hyundai's are UNION BUILT.
But don't let that get in your way of being a pompous ass.

.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #139
141. Not in Alabammy they ain't. nt
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
99. Why do you feel compelled to defend yourself against a shill for management.
That guy has no problems crawling up your ass, but I've yet to hear any criticism from him for GM moving production to Mexico.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Good point.
Thanks for slapping me awake. This guy is just a tool

.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #99
117. You kidding me? This guy was looking for the attention.
"That guy has no problems crawling up your ass, but I've yet to hear any criticism from him for GM moving production to Mexico."

What a profoundly stupid thing to say. When have I EVER posted ANYTHING in support of GM management? Never.

You and your type need to demonize me so you can feel better about being anti-Labor.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #117
125. We don't need to demonize you
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 07:37 AM by Atman
You keep doing it yourself with every one of your posts.

How is it that "this guy" is looking for attention, but the guy who keeps responding with silly smilies and totally erroneous characterizations of others' motives isn't just looking for attention?

Oh, I get it alright. You're a one-trick pony who simply has nothing intelligent to add to the debate. I get it, already, I get it.

.
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carlyhippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #125
127. Wow, romulux has created quite the stir on this thread
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 07:45 AM by carlyhippy
C.
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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
73. You DO know that the Sante Fe is built in Alabama don't you?
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 06:30 PM by Rosco T.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Well, I knew it, but Mr. High-N-Mighty I'm sure doesn't care.
He's only in it to berate people.

.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. I don't support Southern state union busting.
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 06:35 PM by Codeine
That's exactly what the long-term aim of those plants is, the destruction of the UAW. And too many DUers will be cheering the end of organized labor in our country.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. Oh, I know that all too well!
As I've stated several times, I work for labor unions (among other clients). And if you search my DU posts, you'll see that I've written several times about the efforts of the slime-ball Republicans using this bullshit Detroit/Union meme as a way to break the unions in order to bring the manufacturing jobs to their states. I totally understand this, and it appalls me.

Organized labor doesn't help just the union members...it floats all boats. A good union wage brings up all wages for all people, as manufacturers must offer competitive wages for all. If I were buying a new car TODAY instead of back when I had less income and more debt, I'd consider different options. I didn't have those options when I bought the Korean/Alabama cars I bought.

.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. By non-union labor.
I buy UAW. Any progressive worthy of the name buys union whenever possible.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Key words..."Whenever possible."
As I stated in my posts with Romulex, which he/she totally ignored.

.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
131. They are union built though...
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #131
156. By what union?
MY primary concern is the UAW; my countrymen must have jobs before I'll spend my money on foreign-built cars.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #131
159. Here is one example
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSSEO3060972...

Their plants in India are also heavily unionized.

Korea is a fairly heavily unionized country for this day and age.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. BUYING USED DOES NOT HELP THE AUTO INDUSTRY!
That was one of my points in the OP...do my part to help...but alas I can not afford it!
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. Actually it DOES.
Most used cars on lots today are dealership trade-ins. Dealerships take trade-ins because they know they can resell them and make money on them. When you buy a used car from a lot, even lots unaffiliated with new car dealerships, you are still helping those new car dealerships to clear their used inventory.

Here's where it helps: Most people who buy new cars trade their old one in. That trade-in, and the value they can obtain from it, is often a key factor in helping a new car buyer determine whether or not they can afford the purchase. If nobody bought used cars, dealerships would quit taking trade-ins. If that happened, new car sales would plunge further because fewer people could afford them.

So yes, the health of the preowned car market DOES impact the health of the new car market.
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kcass1954 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
94. Most manufacturers have buyback agreements with rental car companies.
They buy vehicles back within a certain time frame, subject to condition limitations, at a price previously agreed to. Guess where those vehicles go?!? Auto auctions. The nicest units are sold in closed sales to franchise dealers; the rest are sold in sales that are open to all dealers.

I had no idea how huge the used car market is until I became involved in it.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #36
122. Well, it depends
If it's a good trade-in a dealer will keep it, do some reconditioning and put it on their lot. A trade in that we can't sell on our lot, too many miles, not in good shape, we sell to a wholesaler who then puts it on their lot. A lot of the used cars we have were purchased at an auto auction, lease turn ins, etc.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. Easy Credit Fall Out...
Over the year the prices on mid-sized cars crept higher and higher. In the 90's, these cars were around 12-15k and then jumped into the low 20s...just like housing prices. The higher the sticker, the bigger the loans that could be written and the more money the lenders could milk in fees and interest...as well as trying to create a secondary "bubble market" with these short term loans. Also, the prices rose as leasing became more popular...the higher the sticker, the higher the lease. Of course, we were told these incrases were due to "mandated" changes or incrased labor costs. But, as you point out, the foreign cars increased in price along with the domestic.

Two years ago, I planned to buy a car with cash. The dealer kept telling me how I should finance it or that he could offer me a lower price and kept doing what he could to keep me from buying the car outright. I went to another dealer who wasn't so anxious on hooking fish.

Now we have a credit market in deep freeze. The days of 5 or 10% down are gone...and it's even hard to find 25% down. At those rates and prices...along with the crumbling consumer sector (unemployment, decreased savings, bigger debts) are putting the auto industry in a vise of their own device. Today I heard there's a backlog of nearly 120,000 vehicles sitting unsold...and I don't see them moving off the lots anytime soon.

Good luck on your search. Online sites are a very helpful guide...
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. Did they pass the $5K credit for getting older cars off the road?
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FudaFuda Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Check out the property taxes and insurance you'll be paying before buying new.
On top of the stupid money they charge for that new car, you'll also be paying outrageous personal property tax to your local government and outrageous full coverage insurance premiums. And don't forget the reaming you'll be getting on the loan.

You're better off, if you have the savings, to buy a 4-6 year old car with 50k miles or less, paid in full with no loan. Auto loans don't do much for your credit rating as compared to smart use of credit cards, so a car is the worst thing to finance unless you have no choice. The personal property tax on a car that's 3 or more years old is a fraction of the tax bill for the first couple years. And since the vehicle's paid in full, you don't have to pay the full-boat insurance - just make sure you're covered as to paying for damage to others, and then insure your own vehicle to the extent you desire.

Of course, if you do all that, you won't look cool, and your friends will think you must be poor. But you'll be the one with more money in the bank.
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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
81. Ahhh... no.
Just bought a new 2009 1st of the year, traded in a 2005.

No local 'property tax'
Tags the same cost.
Insurance went DOWN because of newer safety features.
And the loan was 3%.

Don't make blanket statements.
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FudaFuda Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. Fair enough, but ...
if your insurance went down when going from a 2005 to a 2009, it would almost have to mean you had full 'collision' coverage on your 2005 as well, and probably the same deductible. The insurance on my cars, which were both fully paid for over four years ago, is for liability to other drivers. Any minor damage my own car might incur in an accident I would pay out of pocket to replace, which would still be less than the cumulative cost of collision coverage over the years. If the damage to my vehicle is significant, then I total the car for parts and buy another car, with cash. I pay Progressive $87 a month, for two vehicles.

Figure out how much that 3% loan is costing you over the life of the loan. Whatever it is, that's how much more you're paying for your car than I would pay for it, because I don't finance cars.

As for the property tax issue, if you live in a state with no personal property tax, then that's awesome. But you're in the minority on that, and your state is still getting it out of you by other means. A new car costing $20,000 in my state will mean at least $600 personal property tax the first year, probably more.

Anyway, you're right that I wrongly assumed the same circumstances would prevail everywhere.
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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #87
104. "Figure out how much that 3% loan is costing you over the life of the loan"
"Figure out how much that 3% loan is costing you over the life of the loan. Whatever it is, that's how much more you're paying for your car than I would pay for it, because I don't finance cars."

I did, it's 3%, simple interest from our local credit union. Not compound.. straight 3% so it's costing me 3%.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. We can't even find a Ford van to buy for our boarding kennel.
We were thinking of that instead of the Dodge (actually Mercedes) Sprinter.

But we can't find one with the size specs we need - and Ford has been on the computer to find us one.



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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. I have never purchased new.
I always go to the car show a year or two ahead of being ready to purchase a new car. Then when I am ready, I look for a program car or low mileage car that meets my wants.

My last purchase was in 2002, I bought a 2001 luxury sedan for 70% of the new cost with 12,000 miles. It had been a courtesy car for Pebble Beach Golf Club. I am still driving that car with nearly 150,000 miles on it. I think I got my moneys worth, but it would take more at the new car price.

And don't let anyone tell you the quality of American cars is poor, I have invested less than $3,000 on repairs with only 2 major repairs required.

If you buy smart, you can do very well with used.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. What kind of profit have car companies made recently?
If you think they're overpriced, then they would presumably be making large profits. Last I heard, they were struggling, just a little.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
82. Wow, that's a pretty dumb conclusion.
Go sell apples for $5 each and see how much profit you make.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #82
91. So you think there's a much larger market for cars than currently exists
but that all the manufacturers are over-pricing their cars, and so people just choose not to buy cars at all?

Because that's the only conclusion I can draw from your dumb analogy. There's no manufacturer saying "look, we price our cars right, and they're flying out of the showrooms, and we're making healthy profits".

How low a price do you think it's possible to produce and market a car for, in the USA? Do you think that you can work out a better business plan for it than all the existing car manufacturers?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
105. I don't think the definition of "overpriced" the OP used has anything to do with profit margins.
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 01:15 AM by greyl
It's a more common usage over here to say something is overpriced meaning "just too much money for what it is". It's a perceived value issue, not a bookkeeping issue.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #105
145. True - meaning "new cars don't seem worth the effort needed to make them, to me"
Or possibly they meant "new cars lose their market value too quickly, so it's too expensive to buy them new and sell them a few years later".

Since the manufacturers haven't been making large profits in the past few years, the options seem to be:

(a) Car manufacturers are inefficient - they could lower the price if they did a better job
(b) Cars are not worth the work and material needed to make them - they can't be made at a decent price, no matter what is tried
(c) cars are not significantly overpriced
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
21. Find a dealer that sells rental fleet cars that have low mileage
I bought a 2008 Mustang convertible for $16,500. It had only 11,300 miles on it. Full warranty. It sold new for over $27,000 just 12 months before. It was a rental that was sold to the dealer. Go to auto trader . com to find the car you want near you. You can also look up the vehicle history for a small fee. Sometimes for nothing.
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. It's Not Just You
I am shopping for a car because the old one is getting in the range where I don't trust it and I drive alone a lot. Looked at Mazda 3, as I am tired of Civics, good cars that they are. The price for the 2010 Mazda 3, which is out now, went UP from 2009. Did I miss something? Is Mazda having a great year? The price of the Honda Fit is the same as the bigger Civic with a difference of about 1 mile per gallon in mileage. Uh??? Haven't decided what to do because I usually pay cash and I don't want to cash out any mutual funds when the market is this low, but it's clear Mazda isn't interested in my business.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. 2010 Mazda3 is a completely new design
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 02:53 PM by high density
The pricing doesn't seem all that removed from the one I bought a few years ago. :shrug:
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
26. The Malibu definitely is. That's a $17k car IMO.
I think the new 2010 Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan seem to blow the Malibu out of the water in that low-mid $20k price range. Though they are built in Mexico. :eyes:
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
52. Detroit lost a customer because of the Malibu.
My son's first car was a used Grand Prix. He liked it, but once he built up a little credit he went shopping for his first new car and actually wound up with a Malibu. I think it was a 2005 or 2006. He found it to be an overpriced piece of crap with shoddy workmanship and cheap materials. He kept it less than two years and traded it in on a Mazda 3. Took a beating on the trade, but he was thrilled to be out of the Malibu.

My cars (which Romulex is berating me for) are a 2006 and a 2007. If I were shopping today, I'd look at the new offerings Detroit has. But I'm not in the market today. I'll keep these cars for a long time if the continue to perform the way they have so far. I doubt my kid will consider looking at another Chevy, though.

.
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960 Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. Well, imports are subject to huge tariffs by the US government.
And yes, I think it's ridiculous you have to pay 20-25K for a fairly standard car.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. No they're not. Link? nt
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Depends on what you call huge
http://hotdocs.usitc.gov/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/0500c8... The range is 2.5% to 25% depending on the vehicle.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. 2.5% is not huge. What is the tariff on a US car imported into Japan or Korea?
:hi:
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. I don't know
I think the tariff on pickups is 25% if I'm not mistaken which is pretty large.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Of course you don't. And you're not interested in finding out, either.
You still haven't answered my question about getting TARP money back from Wall Street, btw, Mr. Fiscal Conservative. :hi:
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. You apparently are interested in finding out either.
I am not your fact finding servant.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #68
119. I'm interested in pointing out hit-and-run anti-Labor posters.
Funny how you always run out of fact-checking steam after making some half-formed anti-Labor post. :shrug:
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #119
137. At least I have facts, something that alludes you.
But if I had to defend old, bloated, bureaucratic organizations which are causing millions of workers to lose their jobs I would try to avoid facts too.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #137
140. The word is "elude". Malapropisms are fairly common in your posts, however.
"But if I had to defend old, bloated, bureaucratic organizations which are causing millions of workers to lose their jobs I would try to avoid facts too."

At least you've stopped pretending! :hi:
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #140
149. Where have I pretended?
I am old enough to remember the AFL-CIO construction unions organizing their members to attack anti-Vietnam war marches I was in. I remember the AFL craft unions devising all sorts of ways to keep minorities out of their membership. Any progressive who blindly supports "unions" because they are "unions" has nothing above the neck.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. Since when?
What "huge tariffs" are imposed on automobile imports?

I fucking wish there were some, so people would pull their heads out of their fucking asses and keep their friends and neighbors working in fair-paying union jobs.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
89. No, not nearly enough actually.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
108. Really?
Huge tariffs? On what, die-cast model cars? There are NO tariffs on imported cars into the US.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #108
138. See post #46 but you have never been one for the truth
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
43. In the future
the single-occupant/owner vehicle will go the way of the one horse shay.

Dead end technology that's killing us all.

www.transitionus.org
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. I guarantee that will not happen in our lifetimes.
We'll transition the technology, but we won't be giving up our cars.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
101. If you're in reasonably good health
Edited on Thu Apr-23-09 10:31 PM by ProudDad
and are under 40 years of age...

I GUARANTEE it will be in your lifetime. Get used to the idea...

And learn how to share...
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
45. Then buy one with a few miles on it. People are giving their cars back and getting repo'd like crazy
There are certainly enough of them on the lot.

See, here's a 2008 Malibu hybrid with 7K miles for $19K. http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp ;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=21&pageNumber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-|M-_9_|D-_92_|N-N|R-30|I-1%2c7|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Z-95825&aff=national&paId=297813826&recnum=8&leadExists=true

You can whittle that price way down with a few more miles, too. 40K mile lease return? Ten grand. v=http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp ;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=21&pageNumber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-|E-|M-_9_|D-_92_|N-N|R-30|I-1%2c7|P-PRICE+descending|Q-descending|Z-95825&aff=national&paId=306136626&recnum=32&leadExists=true

Don't think you have to take it in the shorts on a new car to help the auto industry. Trade-ins drive new car sales, and they can only take trade-ins if they get the used inventory of the lot. Which is where you, a smart buyer who does not want to pay 30 grand for a very basic car, come in.
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Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
50. Buy an old junker for a few hundred bucks.
It's a gamble, but if you're lucky you could put tens of thousands of miles on it.

And they've got character. Far more than any new car.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. You got it. Been driving mid 70s cars since I began driving in the mid 80s
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
64. Some inflation statistics...
The 2009 Chevy Malibu starts at $22,325. In 1974 dollars that's about $5168 according to the inflation calculator*. But the 1974 Malibu started at $3049**. And on top of that men in their 30s make about 12% less than their fathers did in 1974 (that's a study from 2004, it's probably even worse now)***.

Which means that in a two income family you might be slightly better off than your parent's generation but you're paying so much more for everything like cars, gas and housing that it's a wash. And if you come from a family that already had two incomes in the 70s, then you're probably way worse off than your parents.


* http://www.westegg.com/inflation /
** http://auto.howstuffworks.com/chevrolet-malibu11.htm
*** http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=3213731&page=1
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Comparing the two is silly.
A modern car is leagues ahead of it's 70s counterparts in terms of technology, safety, and build quality.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. This is to be expected, though
Increases in production efficiencies would more than make up that difference.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. And legacy costs more than offset those savings. nt
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #71
83. The legacy costs supposedly amount to $1600 per vehicle.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_19/b393...

My point is that it's not the cost of the car that's a problem so much as the fact that our wages haven't kept up with the true cost of inflation, particularly if you don't properly measure critical expenses like housing and transportation.

In fact the argument you're making about today's cars being better is a large part of the reason why our inflation statistics are so out of whack.


"Most criticism of the official inflation number, the Consumer Price Index, or CPI, has focused on the statistical flimflam used by the Bureau of Labor Statistics to calculate how fast prices are going up.
Chief among these is a technique called hedonics. Starting in the 1990s, some economists and government statisticians began arguing that a $100 increase in the price of, say, a car wasn't really a $100 price increase if the power, safety features or general usefulness of the car improved substantially. If the subjective value of the car went up by $100, then, despite the increase in what you paid, according to the government, the price didn't go up at all."

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJo...
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. I disagree, but at any rate it's missing the point.
The point is simply that young people today have to work harder for less and go deeper into debt than our parents did. People often like to point out these "improvements" in quality of life, saying "hey we didn't even have computers and iPods back then!" I suppose you're saying that the air bags and GPS systems make it all worthwhile though?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Airbags and safety stuff sure do. nt
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Well, let's look at that Chevy Malibu example again.
Because it cost about the same amount as my Prius did, and Chevy is not having to pay for any R&D for any cutting edge technology that went into the Malibu like Toyota is with the Prius. And the legacy costs are $1600 per car. So does that mean that the premium you pay for cutting edge hybrid technology is only $1600? How much extra do airbags cost? They've been in pretty much every car for over a decade now. And it's not like there weren't any R&D costs in the 60s. The big 3 spent all kinds of money researching alternate fuels and other concept car stuff.
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
67. We just got a new Chevy Aveo with 0% financing
The back lots, where they usually keep the cheap used cars, are empty--that's what people are buying. But we've had good luck with our older Aveo (also bought with 0% for 5 years) and so hubby gets the new one and the College kid gets the older car for the summer (and I don't have to drive my van around town, but can keep it back for when we need to haul many people/a lot of stuff).
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #67
132. Enjoy your DAEWOO
That's what Aveo is...
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #132
151. As I said, we've enjoyed the other one
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 12:20 PM by Maeve
And yeah, it's something like 79% Korean...but it's the smallest and least expensive of the "American" branded cars, with Chevy and GM getting the profits.

It's also one of the few Chevy cars that is continuing to sell in this economy.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #151
160. I can't bitch about it as I own a Hyundai...
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 01:53 AM by JCMach1
And yes, it was the cheapest and had the most options for the options I was looking for.
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #160
164. We also got a free year of OnStar, which is nice when traveling
(Yeah, no such thing as "free" but..) it beats AAA for peace of mind should there be trouble or an accident.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #164
165. I had to have a tough 4x4 that can take the conditions here in the UAE
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. I understand--I have to hold onto the van for festival travel
Hard to move a coffin in an Aveo...
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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
75. How American is that car???
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #75
90. This has more accurate info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Malibu#Seventh_gener...

Assembled in Kansas City and Lake Orion, Michigan.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
88. Toyota Yaris: $12,205


Great mileage, too.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #88
102. close but not quite right...
on the toyota site it claims it's 12,205, but as soon as you try to build your own. the price for the cheapest model edges up to 13,010.

Still cheap.

Frankly, I wish someone would come out with an electric to and from car. basic, no frills 35 miles to the charge that does 65 mph.

I currently take the bus, but I would like something all electric to prevent CO2 emissions. Since I currently get my electricity from wind power, this would be the perfect option for me.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #102
129. Zap cars. Three wheel, all electric vehicles, with solar panels
available (extra cost) to assist with charging.

I've only seen one on the road in my small town, but it's everywhere around here.

http://www.zapworld.com /
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carlyhippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #129
133. the shuttle and the zebra are cool
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 08:20 AM by carlyhippy
I haven't seen one yet around here. The only thing that would scare me would be the fear of being in a crash with a bigger vehicle.

If they were cheap enough, I would like one to drive in the summer to work and the store ect. But in the winter the xterra would have to come out, I'm not sure if one of those would work out here, it snows in feet and below zero for 4 or so months.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #129
146. I've looked at the Zap. nice vehicles but the 3 wheeled car only does 40 mph
on a 25 mile charge.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #88
116. Union: Whatever! (PS: Thank GAWD it passed!) nt
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #88
128. Hey that's my car!
And I love it as much as I loved the price.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
92. Yeah new cars are ridiculously priced.
I'm paying $26K for my Nissan, 2 years into payments.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
93. NO! We are just WAYYYYYYYY UNDERPAID, thanks to cheap labor Conservatism!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
96. Another blast at GM. I think Japanese cars are way fucking overpriced.
If you think the comparable Japanese car is cheaper, you are hallucinating. I guess 0% APR for 60 months
for qualified buyers isn't worth it either. $4665 average financial savings.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. I think my point was in support of unions...
not against.

A Japanese car costs about the same and they have NO legacy costs...hence they should be cheaper...
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #96
121. No blast here at all. Turn down the sensitive level. nt
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
98. They are giving huge discounts on
at least $3-4000 off sticker. Japanese cars are in the same price range and from my experience they never offered me much of a deal. Toyota makes a big deal about giving a $500 rebate.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
106. I bought a Dodge Charger R/T with all the fixins' in Jan '08
and paid almost the same as I did for my Camaro Convertible Z28 back in 1995 (32K vs 30K) even with 12 years of inflation so I'd have to disagree.

I still have both vehicles by the way - the Camaro has 188k miles on it - the Charger R/T has a lot more electronic toys and safety features, not as fun to drive as the convertible (it's automatic vs. a stick and it's not a convertible) but a lot more comfortable for longer trips.

Doug D.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #106
112. Good post, Doug.
Seen in that light the Dodge Charger R/T is actually low priced.
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Stevenmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
114. I'm afraid it's you, the phrase "Sticker shock" is not a new concept.
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carlyhippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #114
123. A couple of years ago, nicer cars were cheaper than SUVs and pickups
now they are about the same price. Except maybe the really small economy cars like the prius and yaris.
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Stevenmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #123
136. What's on the sticker is really not all that important
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 10:12 AM by Stevenmarc
When I go into a dealership I know exactly what I want to spend a month on a car and that's what I work from. I've done my homework, I know what options I want, I have an outside source of financing so that I have numbers that I can negotiate with and I'm almost as persistent as Norm Coleman when it comes to getting what I want, the last car took 5 hours of negotiation before I was satisfied. In the past 2 decades my car payments have not increased more than the rate of inflation.

Most people are woefully unprepared for the car buying experience and if they have the ability to post on the internet then they have absolutely no excuse not to be able to do the research required and shouldn't be so surprised at the price of a car as the original poster was.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #136
144. Of course, this is part of the problem
5 hours of negotiation! NOTHING should take that long. If one cannot agree on a price in 10 minutes the process is F**ked. Obviously you "wore the down", but the average buyer should not have to deal with something like that.

Why can't we have something like Priceline, where we submit an offer and see who bids on it?
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Stevenmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #144
152. Trust me, that was the exception
but after an online inventory search they had the car with the colors and options I wanted on the lot, I wasn't leaving until I got my deal on my terms.

I would love to see the process made easier and the Priceline business model is a great idea.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #136
154. Five hours? I wouldn't have gone through that.
My last car buying experience was pretty good. I called a dealership about a car they had on the lot. The salesman had it ready for a test drive when I arrived after work. Drove it a few miles and was happy. Got back, sat down and played with the numbers. They were at the price I wanted after about five minutes. The salesman was looking as if I had just asked for his child as part of the deal, but in the end I signed the paperwork that night. I am not into playing bullshit games with these people.

A few weeks ago I went out with my parents to look at various used car lots. They weren't ready to buy, but were just looking to see what was out there. I found most of the lots either don't want the business or other buyers have a lot more patience with them than I ever would. For instance, one lot didn't even put prices on anything. I fail to see how you can make any sales like that, especially when the omnipresent salesmen don't have a clue themselves as to what the prices are.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
130. How about an 18 month moratorium on sales tax for American cars
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 08:04 AM by JCMach1
That would help... Or, just simple add that as a Federal tax credit.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #130
158. How about forcing employers to bring our wages up to where they should be!
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
134. I'm getting my new lease today.
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 08:21 AM by bigwillq
It's a Nissan, listed for around 25K, but my monthly payments will only be $30 more than what I was paying for my 2006 Altima. To me, that's a good deal.
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
142. I have friends in the business
They work for a big leasing co. (10000 cars out on lease) who sells their best cars on their own lot, send the other 60-70% to the auction. They also have a full time buyer who fills in some of the categories, like pickups and sports cars. Service is excellent, State inspections are free as long as you own it. We bought the extended warranty when we got Vanna (04 Freestar SEL), so when the transmission failed, it was only an inconvenience <$150, including tow and rental. And they humored me, taking the toothy snows mounted on Vanna when we got her and mounting them on used "snow wheels", and put a premium summer tire on the stock alloys. (saves $100/yr on changeover, common in Europe) - basically, we are set up to pay only maintainence (and the payment) through a 4-yr "trade cycle".

prices and inventory here: http://www.merchantsauto.com/index.htm

I'm not sayin' this is the answer for everybody, but it works for us - and Mom - and lots o' folks around here.
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sfpcjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
161. The Camry LE is about $18K which isn't too bad
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 05:30 AM by sfpcjock
Ask for the same deal for a Chevy Impala, you might get it.

This looks the cheapeast to me: www.LeaseTrader.com

They claim you pay no down payment and just assume the last guy's lease payment + a few hundred from most lease companies. Not sure 'bout it, but it looks good. Also some deals are way shorter than 36 months if you need that.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
162. Say thanks to Inflation.
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 06:00 AM by Grinchie
The surprising thing about Car's is that the production line is incredibly efficient andd automated. Productivity is light years ahead of the assembly line of 20 years ago, yet we see products that barely pass the sniff test in reliability and functionality.

I ran across a patent for the Pogue Carburetor a few months back. It was dated around 1930 or so, and produced highly vaporized fuel using compressed air, and a heated chamber to ensure no, inefficient fuel droplets made it into the manifold. It proclaimed that it could produce a more efficient burn of fuel, and increased mileage. There were other claims that it would enable up to 300 miles per gallon, as stated by the head of GM in the magazine interviews of the day.

Well, it never happened. The pogue carburetor was never adopted by the Automotive industry, and they continued down the patth of inefficiency. When people started noticing the amount of pullution coming out of cars, they demanded action. What did Detroit do? Well, they slapped an expensive, limited lifespan catalytic converter onto their cars. They also moved towards Fuel Injection, which actually produces more fuel droplets which burn inefficiently. This inefficiency is there solely to feed enough fuel to the Catalytic converter, which would starve if an engine burned all the fuel it was fed.

To visualize the concept of vaporized fuel, just leave a partially fuel gas gan in the sun for a few minutes. It will expand and become pressurized with gas vapor, and it is an explosive mixture. When you release the pressure, pure vapor comes out. This is what the pogue carburetor prodeced, then metered into the manifold.

Extremely simple, elegant solution that bypasses engine and cylinder temperature. There are tales of certain people that created such a device in their cars, and when word got out, dissappeared without a trace.

The technology for extremely efficient engines and carburetors is out there, it's just that the big money is not steered their way because it is not in the Capitalist interest to actully creat something that causes less revenue to be made.




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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
163. I've been driving for 42 years and I've only bought new three times and American cars twice.
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 07:35 AM by mnhtnbb
I finally made it into the luxury car category about 13 years ago and I've only bought them pre-owned (2 years old). Just traded one BMW (01) for another (07) this month--German made (not SC) and my out of pocket cost was less than buying many new American cars.

We did buy a new car (03 Altima) for our son who took over the payments when he moved out on his own.

Hubby has bought two new cars since we've been married (24 years next month); one American and one foreign.
He's going to need a new car before long and I have no idea what he's considering.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
167. Are cars overpriced, or are working people way underpaid?
I'd refer you to The Daily Show's recent edition of "The Stockholm Syndrome" for the root-answer. The major problem in our economy is support of a huge, and hugely overpaid, parasite class of individuals and industries.


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david13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:50 PM
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168. It is you. Cars are way UNDERPRICED. That is why the
manufacturers are going broke.
dc
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