Al-Qaeda in Iraq - Real or propaganda?

[NNN0LHI]

Poll question: Al-Qaeda in Iraq - Real or propaganda?

[Occam Bandage]

1. It's pretty obvious that there is a group by that name,

and that it engages in criminal acts of violence, unless we are to go so far as to suggest that the United States government is faking the entire Middle East, which is perhaps a mite bit unreasonable.

[MADem]

8. They even release statements periodically, and take credit for shenanigans.

The fact that they exist is pretty plain.

If the idea is to suggest that they're a figment of the US government's imagination or a creation of the US government, I don't think that's the case at all.

[Occam Bandage]

10. The fact that "real" and "propaganda" are presented as a dichotomy without overlap

makes it hard to say what the intent is here. Historical aside:

There was a great deal of propaganda throughout the North about how the Confederates deliberately killed entire regiments of black Union soldiers who had already laid down their weapons and offered a surrender. Later analysis has shown that these claims were overblown: when the fort was breached, most soldiers were trying to surrender, some others were still shooting, and still others were fleeing, and that in confused self-preservation and mob behavior (similar to that of the Boston Massacre, in which one soldier responding to a perceived threat caused the entire force to begin firing), the Confederates began firing into the Union ranks, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of unarmed Federal soldiers.

The Fort Pillow Massacre was the subject of much propaganda. However, the fact that people invented particular facets of the massacre (that the Confederates had given the order to kill all surrendering black soldiers, or that men were lined up and executed after the surrender) does not change the fact that the massacre was a real event, in which hundreds of unarmed soldiers were killed while trying to surrender. Saying "the massacre was propaganda and not real" would be wrong; hundreds of unarmed people who were surrendered and under white flags were gunned down. Saying "the massacre was real and not propaganda" ignores the fact that many of the things attributed to that day were politically-driven fabrications.

I don't think that in the case of Fort Pillow, or in the case of AQI, you can fairly pose a "real or propaganda" question. It would be a bit like posting "President Barack Obama: African-American, or Male?"

[MADem]

15. Well said--nicely descriptive of the nuance, too. NT

[Forkboy]

2. Both, but leaning more to the propoganda side.

[xchrom]

3. both. nt

[Amonester]

4. Both, because bu$h/chainy maladmin. tortured and murdered...

so many innocents to steal their country's oil resources

recruiting new members have never been easier...

and as long as there will be an illegal occupation and the murderers of Xe...

there will be more and more new members, not less

out of Iraq now, and recruiting #s will fall

[Occam Bandage]

5. AQI is almost a nonentity at this point. The Sunni Awakening / Sons of Iraq movement

has destroyed most of its operational ability.

[Amonester]

7. I stand corrected. Thanks.

So it's more lies (the propaganda 'mixes' the resistance with AQ).

Out Of Iraq NOW

[Occam Bandage]

11. Yes. Iraq looks pretty capable of standing on its own two feet right now.

I don't think there's anything more we can do to help them, and therefore there's no reason not to begin withdrawal. I also think that things will get worse as we withdraw, but I hope people don't take that as a reason to prolong the withdrawal timeline; that it a bit like saying that removing a splinter from a finger causes pain, so we should leave a splinter in our finger forever.

[sutz12]

6. Something else...

It wasn't there before we took out Saddam. What is there now goes by that name, but it isn't necessarily tied closely to the ones in AfPak.

[Echo In Light]

9. There's part of the motive for detaining/torturing the innocent: create conflict

...and at least get a marginal % of authentic "bad guys" there so the M$M can flesh out the movie script and sell it to gullible Americans.

A few yrs back I recall this journalist/author - don't remember his name - who had just returned from being in Iraq, and caught an interview w/him on CSPAN. He said that out of the entire "insurgency," maybe 2% were those beholden to actual "terror" groups.

[Canuckistanian]

12. Pre-invasion? Non-existent. Post-inasion? Miniscule.

That's not to say that there were NO Muslim extremists.

But as for this entity called "Al-Qaeda" - which always was a loose connection of individuals, not a tight, exclusive club - they probably didn't have much presence in Iraq.

As "advisors" and leaders, however, they were probably influential.

[Occam Bandage]

13. Yeah, "Al-Qaeda in Iraq" isn't really al-Qaeda.

As I understand it, they were an insignificant pre-existing group of Jordanian extremists operating mostly out of northern Iraq, and drawing on Kurdish Islamists. Maybe they pulled off an attack or an assassination, but probably they didn't. Most "extremist groups" never get beyond the bullshitting stage.

After the US invaded, they hooked up with a number of larger resistance groups in succession. Finally, they decided to call themselves "Al-Qaeda," thinking that would help their public image. Seems to have worked, even though the only links between al-Qaeda in Iraq and al-Qaeda proper are in occasional and uninformative letters written back and forth between Zawahiri and Zarqawi, mostly with the latter saying "hey I'm gonna kill some Americans, God willing" and the former saying "sounds good, God willing."

[MADem]

16. .........

:rofl:

That's a rather apt way of putting it!

"Al Quada" (the base) had become a brand name of sorts--everyone wanted in on the action!

[Sebastian Doyle]

14. Theoretically, I could put together a band and call it "The Beatles".

And I could play concerts to crowds of really stupid fucking people who didn't know better, at least until Paul McCartney and his lawyers sued me (and deservedly so) for infringing on their copyright.

But it wouldn't really be "The Beatles", would it?

Osama Bin Laden was stupid not to get a copyright on the name "Al Qaeda".