I always thought sales taxes were Republican tactics

[itsrobert]

Why did California raise our sales taxes to over 9 percent in most areas? Why don't they just raise income taxes instead? That, and I just got my vehicle registration renewal notice and I almost fainted. Fees and sales taxes? What the hell is up with this?

[Ian David]

1. Because poor people pay the highest percentage of their income in salestaxes. n/t

[Merlot]

12. Agreed. And it hurts them more than rich people

Gawd forbid we tax yachts.

[Ian David]

14. In California, yachts are tax-exempt. n/t

[DeepBlueC]

2. I think sales taxes pay better

no deductions, no shelters and they grow as prices rise in ways that income taxes are hard to budge.

[itsrobert]

3. I guess I will just shop at Military Exchanges

and on-line so I can dodge sales taxes as much as possible. I'm lucky, I can do that. Some poor people don't have the means to make on-line purchases.

[Oregone]

6. Sales taxes grow as prices rise?

But don't income taxes also grow as income rises? If prices of goods are rising, and income is not, don't you think a sales tax effectively sticks it to the working class who would continue to pay a higher proportional of their income in taxes? Otherwise, if income is rising with prices, then doesn't that nullify your justification of sales tax (as income tax would suffice)?

BTW, on a side note, wouldn't sales tax essentially give the owner-class (instead of Legislators) the ability to adjust how much tax the bottom class pays simply by raising the cost of basic goods? Is that a power you want to trust the "free market" with?

[DeepBlueC]

15. yes it sticks it to working classes...it is regressive

I am not justifying the policy I am explaining it and why it is attractive to legislators. It has very few deductions, no one gets away with a break.

[DeepBlueC]

21. has the minimum wage risen with inflation?

Around here it got stuck under a Conservative and stayed that way for nearly ten years, Welfare and UIC were slashed, and many non-union jobs did not keep up with inflation let alone grow. Prices always reflect inflation, the weak Can dollar, so the sales tax effectively increased its take. I'm no whiz with numbers but it looks that way to me.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. Welcome to the class war.

Fun, ain't it?

[maxsolomon]

5. no pol wants to raise income taxes

because the rich will fund your opponent in retaliation.

washington state won't even contemplate an income tax - it's all on the backs of sales & property. and guess what? those revenues are in the crapper.

[The Straight Story]

7. Both sides like to raise taxes on poor people, they don't have clout

Why do you think SCHIP uses tobacco to raise money and not high end clothing sales and the like?

[rgbecker]

8. Is food and clothing included in the Calif. Sales Tax?

I'm happy to report that Massachusetts (Taxachusetts) does not charge the 5% sales tax on food or clothing. That does help with the regressive aspect of the sales tax a little. The State does require a 5% sales tax payment for goods bought from out of state, say over the phone or internet, on the income tax form. If you do not want to figure out how much that might be, they have a rate you can pay based on your income. At first I was outraged, but now think it is only fair. Listen, no one wants to pay more taxes than they owe and are fair, but we all benefit from the government spending, whether you like all aspects of it or not, so we should all pay our share.

[Occam Bandage]

9. Everyone likes them, because that's hidden in every purchase you make,

while everyone sees their income and property taxes as one big thwack when they do their taxes annually.

[Zavulon]

10. As I understand Republicans (I used to be one until 17 years ago),

they would prefer a sales tax OVER an income tax, not necessarily in conjunction with. Then again, they really seem to have no problem with regressive taxes that give the rich a break, so...

I, too, prefer a sales tax over an income tax / FICA, because it would likely have the rich paying a lot more and the poor paying a lot less. Today's income tax system is incomprehensible even to IRS workers, and I see no reason why the government needs to know what I make. We need to tax wealth, not income; plenty of people have a lot of wealth and very little income (CEOs whose salaries are one dollar a year).

I feel your pain, but just wait until the feds finally do the math and realize that they can't afford Bush's massive spending, Obama's stimulus and current entitlements all together. Not only will you see an increase in Social Security collection age AND a probable drop in benefits, but we're going to get stuck with a nationwide VAT - no matter which party is in charge.

This is why I'm a Democrat because of social issues far more than fiscal ones - neither party is an even remotely competent steward of our money.

[Oregone]

11. "We need to tax wealth, not income"

But taxing consumption is not the same as taxing wealth. Income does correlate loosely to wealth.

[Zavulon]

13. Spending does, too.

More so than income does, especially for the middle class. Add up every tax and you're paying at least 50%. Not so much with the rich, most of whom spend a higher portion of their money than they pay in tax.

Few rich people just sit on their cash without spending it; so let's make those people who buy yachts, $80K cars, $10K watches, private helicopters / jets, etc, pay.

[Oregone]

16. But spending is not mandatory.

If a rich person simply wanted to avoid taxes, they merely have to take a year off spending (or vacation lavishly abroad). You cannot force people to spend proportionally to their wealth.

Further...well, you mention fancy consumer goods and $80 K car. Here is a problem...the MSRP on a lower end car starts at $8 to $10 K. Now an expensive car is $80 K. Clearly, that is 10 times as much (and hence, an average rich person would pay 10X as much in taxes as those on the bottom for buying a car). Well you do realize that average CEOs make 800 times the average worker?

I would venture to say few, very few, wealthy people spend 800 X as much on goods than average people (or else they wouldn't be rich, and would have nothing in their *savings* accounts). As we know, most wealthy people do have savings (which would not be taxed under this scheme.

But BESIDES that, why should they pay the same proportion of their income anyway? They have far, far, far more to pay after reaching sustenance and luxury level of existence.

[Zavulon]

19. "average CEOs make 800 times the average worker"

Do they pay 800 times in taxes what the average workers do? No.

With all of the loopholes in our 18,000-page tax system, with a good accountant (much more accessible to the rich than to someone like me) it's a lot easier to avoid taxes over the long term than it is to just take off a year from spending.

If you prefer an income tax, fine - I don't. I might come around to your way of thinking if we ever get a simplified system under which a tax return could be filled out quickly and reliably by a C-student in junior high, but what we have is such an abomination and such a fucking insult to us all that I would gladly accept anything else. My first choice - consumption only. Yours obviously isn't, but the disgust I feel from our current tax system is as strong as the disgust I felt from 01/20/01 - 01/19/09.

[Oregone]

23. "Do they pay 800 times in taxes what the average workers do? No. "

Actually, some may. And many more did with a higher top marginal rate.

For those that do not, why throw out the baby with the bath water and implement a system that clearly, without a doubt, fails in correcting this problem? Its not even questionable if sales tax would fail in the same regard--its a given that it would fail worse.

Implement a new top marginal rate on all high income earners and take care of the issue. Correct problems with payroll taxes, close the loopholes and reform the system. To jump ship to a faultier system, by no means, is a wiser course of action.

Filing taxes really isn't all that damn difficult in the first place. Im sorry you are disgusted with it. I share a similar disgust for proponents of sales tax and free market capitalism.

[Zavulon]

26. "its a given that it would fail worse."

I'll need more than your word for that, but since you're as disgusted with me as I am with the current tax system I see no point in continuing this conversation. You may have the last word if you want it, but I won't be reading it.

And yes, you're right that FILING taxes - the act of putting them in an envelope and mailing them - is not difficult, but knowing every deduction that you're eligible for is. Putting up with all of the bullshit social engineering in the tax code is even worse. I'm so sick and tired of being punished for being single with no kids that I will NEVER approve of our current system.

Like I said, the last word is yours. I won't bother reading it, but you'll have the chance to tell the world just how right you are and how wrong I am for once and for all.

[Oregone]

27. "I'll need more than your word for that" - Tax evasion is legalized by not spending

Or by spending abroad (and who can 'afford' to do that, mind you? The wealthy?). Enough said.

I work with e-Tailers, and you wouldn't believe the amount of business we get from out of state people who order online to avoid sales tax in their own state. Well, a wealthy person would merely have to hop on his yacht for a year living like a king, while his accounts gain interest and get padded with dividends. That is ludicrous.


"Putting up with all of the bullshit social engineering in the tax code is even worse. I'm so sick and tired of being punished for being single with no kids that I will NEVER approve of our current system."

You aren't "punished". Others are being helped. Its called tax "fairness", and yes, it is arbitrary to some value system. People have conditions in life that eat away their *disposable* income, and hence, the government tries to create a "fair" system to only tax on the *disposable* portion of their checks (rather than tax income that goes to pay for education, mortgage interest, child rearing, etc). Yes, it may be a form of "social engineering", but helping people afford homes, send their kids to college, and raising kids may be important values in that produces an environment worth paying for. Perhaps the little extra you may have paid, instead of a single person with a dependent, kept that child off the streets, off crack, and away from gutting you in an alley way and taking your cash. Sometimes people think they are isolated from the environment (which is a very right-wing point of view). We all live here. I say its worth making it nice.

[DeepBlueC]

17. poor people ALWAYS spend a higher proportion of their income

Wealthy people have lots of ways to shelter money from the tax man. Which wealthy person lives from dividend check to dividend check?

[Oregone]

18. If this wasn't true, poor people and wealthy people would *save* the same portion of their pay

Wealthy people have the ability to save much, much more. Saving is the equivalent, in sales tax land, of evading taxes. Poor people don't always have the luxury of saving.

[Zavulon]

20. Poor people always pay a higher percentage of their income by way of one tax or another as well.

Even those who get the EITC still pay FICA, and the poor don't always love long enough to collect it.

[Oregone]

24. No they don't

Not all systems suck the same.

[KharmaTrain]

22. Isn't There Still A Property Tax Freeze?

I thought there was one that prevented hitting home owners.

IMHO, Property taxes are discriminatory on several levels. For those who don't own, they don't have the deduction and end up paying more for their housing than someone a little more fortunate to have the money to own or the stability.

Then there's the question of how properties are appraised. Where I live we get reassed every three years...my last one being two years ago and I'll be paying a taxes based on the 2007 property values, not the current value. The real estate bubble created a silent tax hike on many...especially those who were on fixed incomes, who saw their property values and thus property taxes rise dramatically and creating a lot of hardships for them.

A sales tax is more equitable, but I do oppose taxes on basic commodities...food, medicine even electric and gas.

[ContinentalOp]

25. Uh, the state is essentially controlled by Republicans so there's your answer.

I think there is one really important, beneficial function to sales taxes which is that they are also paid by out of state and foreign tourists. Especially in a state like California. I don't want all of the tourists who come here on shopping sprees to get to do their shopping tax free.