Re: teachers - this got buried in a thread and I wanted to put it out there.

[GaYellowDawg]

This was in response to a question asking why teachers can't admit that there are bad teachers "out there." I've been on here arguing in favor of teachers pretty vociferously, so this is certainly not a teacher-bashing episode, but I wanted to present a perspective that may be a little less defensive than other posts I've put up. I've edited it a little, too. :-)

I've had the opportunity to see the profession from a student's view, from a teacher's view, and from a student teacher supervisor's view. I would be lying if I said that the majority of schools don't have a single weak teacher. If there are 50 or 60 teachers in a school, there are probably a few weak ones in there, and probably at least one bad one. You can say the same thing about any profession. In case you're wondering, I define "weak" as someone who is not very effective but wishes to be, and "bad" as someone who is ineffective and does not care. By "effective," I mean someone who is generally able to relate the material to the students who are willing to learn it, and to inspire some unwilling students to be willing.

The reluctance of teachers to give any ground stems from critics who completely blow the number of weak/bad teachers out of proportion, and the resultant policies and public opinions that follow the critics. Teachers get blamed for the failures of teachers, but also for the failures of school systems, of administrators, of budgets, of enforced curricula, of the government "reform" of the year, of parents, and of students. All of those things do cause failure in the classroom. Sometimes you have incompetent elected school boards (for example, morons who run for office solely to get creationism into science classrooms). Sometimes you have bad administrators - like the ones who put pressure on teachers to pass the star athlete or simply change his grade themselves, or the ones who give teacher evaluations based on how well they get along with the teacher, not the teacher's performance. Many times, the budgets don't give you enough money to do the job. Sometimes the curriculum is overdone with emphases on minutiae and doesn't allow for flexibility. Sometimes the government reform of the year is made out by morons who push models that have already failed (e.g., NCLB, which failed in TX but was covered up). Sometimes there are parents who back their kids against teachers no matter how horrible their kids are. And sometimes you just have students who are lousy, not because they're dumb, but because they don't buy into school at all, they don't give a damn, or they're immature. Cold, hard fact: a substantial percentage of students cannot be taught because they are determined not to learn. Who generally takes the public rap for education, though? Teachers.

I think a good analogy is a hotel front desk clerk. Anyone who's worked as a hotel front desk clerk knows what I'm talking about. If something goes wrong with maintenance, housekeeping, online reservations, etc., etc., the front desk clerk gets yelled at by the patrons, even though the clerk was not at fault. Likewise, any time something goes wrong with education, the first target is the teachers. This is not meant to imply that teachers are never at fault. It is meant, however, to say that teachers are often faulted for circumstances beyond their control.

There are a good number of posters on DU who target teachers, and this is a progressive website! I am certain it is much worse on Free Republic, where most would probably like to get rid of public education entirely because they think the resultant socioeconomic/intellectual caste system would be a small price to pay to get their grubby little hands on a few tax dollars. This means that the moderate position is probably somewhere in between the mixed support teachers get here and the total witch hunt that I am sure exists on FR. Is it any surprise that teachers get defensive and don't want to give any ground or admit any weaknesses at all?

[bobburgster]

1. Well-balanced observations....

I believe your view is well-balanced. All of the variables you mention without a doubt impact the quality if education. The amount of negative influence of each obviously varies from state to state, school district to school district. Most people with children will have a bad experience with a teacher at some point during their child's school years so it is easier for them to grasp on to the "too many bad teachers" mantra. The majority of administrators just tend to placate, so their impact is less obvious. From my experience most good teachers are frustrated too about the slow removal of poor or inept teachers. They realize it is a reflection on the profession.

My feeling is that a fair and balanced principal and/or administrator does more to benefit student learning then the variables. Likewise weak ones (from my experience there are many) just exasperate the problems.

[Obamanaut]

6. "exasperate"? or exacerbate? nt

[roguevalley]

9. I taught 27 years and don't have a problem with getting rid of bad

teachers. I worked with many over the years. Ghey need to go but good teachers need protection from crap assed admins. they are the worst part of teaching, the admins.

[annabanana]

2. This sounds about right... Teachers are the designated

"cusomer service" face of school systems. It is much easier to find the teacher than it is the Board of Ed on any given day.

[Sancho]

3. Why are there some "bad" teachers slipping into the schools?

-Many schools have unlicensed teachers filling areas where there are shortages - this is not obvious to the public.
-Licensed teachers are assigned subjects out of their field to cover shortages
-About half the colleges who produce teachers are nationally accredited as schools of teacher education; many are not and this is a big difference in the standards of colleges who produce teachers
-Even good colleges of teacher education are short-changed since they don't produce "research dollars" at the rate of other disciplines, and clinical training is expensive
-It really takes more than a 4-year degree to produce excellent teachers because of new complexities of special education, language proficiency, and technology
-State departments of education don't always pay higher salaries or encourage national board certification of teachers; usually this is a high standard that eliminates bad teachers
-Most states allow "alternative certification" of teachers (college degrees and moving to teaching from other professions), but the statistics on success of such programs is grim unless those folks go through extensive training
-The percentage of the budget that schools spend on keeping teachers up-to-date is very small compared to other professions; instead of travel to professional training or tuition to graduate coursework, many school districts substitute poorly planned local workshops
-Statistics show that more teachers are non-hired or removed from teaching in union states than non-union states; getting rid of bad teachers is more a function of administration than anything else
-"Bad" teachers (just like "bad" doctors and lawyers) are unknown to the public because most of the complaints and reprimands are hidden in state and school district records


All in all, the schools are pretty well staffed considering the problems recruiting and training good teachers. "Bad" teachers who survive are not the fault of good teachers. It's mostly a problem that your state or school district could improve by simply insisting on 100% teacher program accredited, licensed teachers. Obama's plan calls for 100% accredited teacher programs, but we'll see if it actually happens. Even so, it would take a decade to actually get there.

[GaYellowDawg]

4. Don't forget turnover.

50% of new teachers leave within 3 years. With that kind of turnover, there's a constant call for new teachers, there's a lot of pressure on the teacher preparation programs to turn out a lot of teachers, and sometimes weak teachers make it through and get hired. Things like reduced paperwork and/or higher pay would go a LONG way to alleviate that, I think.

[C......N......C]

5. "sometimes weak teachers make it through and get hired"

What would be an alternative job for those people that went through college to be a teacher. A College program that really doesn't train you to do much else than be a teacher?

[GaYellowDawg]

7. Well...

Ideally, mentor teachers and other professionals would work closely with a weak teacher to strengthen him or her. For instance, perhaps the more difficult classes could be taught with an experienced paraprofessional in the room for classroom management issues. If someone really wants to improve as a teacher, he or she generally will. I've seen some student teaching candidates whom I was quite skeptical about really flourish under a good mentor, and the same can happen for a first-year teacher, too.

My only experience is with science teachers. I've seen a few decide to pursue other areas of work in their area of science (our students take a minimum of 36 hours in their content area, equivalent to a major). A couple who I can remember went on to get master's degrees in forestry and cell biology. Another became a lab tech at the vet school here. Another took a job at a state park as their lead educator (much less pay but much more freedom). Another got a job teaching classes on marine fauna/flora on a cruise line (which, frankly, I kind of envied her for). The classroom isn't the only place where a science ed degree can be used, especially when they get every bit as much of the science as a major does. I saw two go from really struggling to really doing well simply by switching from high school to middle school.

[Sancho]

8. There is no such thing...

You should be a good enough student to change majors like anything else by the time you're a junior. Most teacher ed programs demand a 2.5 or 3.0 GPA for entrance to the major, so you should be a decent student. "Bad" teachers aren't usually stupid, they just don't have the values or complex thinking to do well in a classroom.

Even if that wasn't true, if you make mistakes with kids, you do harm to the innocent. There is no reason to worry about what happens to those who don't make it if they should not be caretakers of children.

[roody]

10. The only way to learn to manage kids is to manage kids.

A teacher becomes "good" by practice. Unless they don't care.

[VPStoltz]

11. And maybe it's because the pay is so pathetic for what they have to do.

And don't even go near that summer vacation thing.
Most teachers work a second job or take classes all summer.