In case you didn't realize it Madoff is the fall guy

[TwixVoy]

I am reminded of reading the book 1984.... specifically the part about the 5 minute hate.

Madoff is the one the powers that be want the public to be angry with. He is the evil that must be punished. He will have the book thrown at him and the masses will feel that justice has been served.

In reality he is a small time crook when compared to the real bastards that caused all of this. I can gurantee you none of them will see a day of jail time, will continue to have money and power, and will be kept well outside of the publics view.

Make no mistake if anyone in any position of power really wanted Madoff dealt with they would have done it YEARS ago easily.

After the exciting trial gets played out on TV for a good while we will be back to reality TV and all will be well in the publics mind.

How easily we are distracted.

[scarletwoman]

1. Excellent point. k&r (nt)

[Behind the Aegis]

2. So who are the "real bastards?"

[readmoreoften]

3. Cramer, WSJ, thestreet, CNBC, hedge funds, etc. The entire system is a scam.

Cramer even says as much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWVmlxhk-tU&eurl=http

[Behind the Aegis]

6. The enitre banking system?

I don't know much about this which is why I asked. How does the WSJ figure into this?

[readmoreoften]

17. Here's a few entry points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWVmlxhk-tU&eurl=http

deepcapture.com

*By the entire banking system, I mean the major players--CDS folks--and the other games they play. The market is not based on fundamentals, but media manipulation and direct manipulation of stocks. The government (DTCC, SEC) and media (WSJ, CNBC) are complicit. Certainly they can't be the only ones. The thievery is systemic at this point. They're robbing one another and hustling one another. Naked shorting is an excellent example of how they just gang up and destroy companies for profit using the media. The mafia's involved.

I mean, come on, of COURSE! With no government oversight and the financial industry making its own rules, it was bound for this.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Thank you for this information.

I don't know much about economics. (CDS folks are ??? I don't know that acronym.) I assumed the "bastards" were corporations, oil industry, credit cards, etc. I always figured there were others involved in the scandal. One person being responsible for this amount of damage would be near impossible, but I didn't understand which "others" the OP was referencing. I appreciate the jumping off point. Economics was never of interest to me, so the whole thing has been very confusing.

[readmoreoften]

30. A few more

This one is fun: This is the CDS (Credit Default Swaps)

http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&skipauth=true&pli=1

In the clip I gave you, Cramer pretty much admits to what's in deep capture. Basically, they buy Stock A low, Cramer/WSJ/thestreet.com, etc. then pump up Stock A "WHOA! STOCK A is HOT!" But that's because they made it hot. Then everyone in America buys Stock A. Then they short it (bet that it will fail). Patrick Byrne (CEO of Overstock.com) claims (and a journalist from the Columbia Journalism Review--the people who put of the Pulitzer--backs him up) that they are "naked shorting" the stocks, which basically means selling thousands of imaginary shares they don't own, to drive the price down. Then when the price is down, they sell the legitimate stocks they actually bought. Stock A, Inc. goes broke. Bear Stearns was in on it. Lehman Bros was in on it. But they cannibalized them. They said--fuck it--let's crash them too, big fun.

All this is going on IN ADDITION to the housing crisis. Between CDS and naked shorting (if you add Patrick Byrne's calculations with estimations on the CDS crisis) there is almost 100 trillion dollars worth of stock circulating when all the gross national products of the world combined are only worth a few trillion. For the past decade, the supposed global wealth is based on air. People have been living (rich people mind you, but people) off investments that they don't really own. Corporations have been operating off investments that are scams. Now no one has any idea of who is actually solvent.

Hope this helps.

[truedelphi]

33. If you want an entertaining education

On what and how and why things are fu&ked up right now, see Gary Fielder and His Google and/or YouTube vids.

His friends helped the Colorado lawyer with the project, so they have pertinent clips from "60 Minutes" and other film footage.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwixVoy]

4. Ouch you got me

There are no real bastards! It was all Madoff you are right how silly of me. NO ONE else caused any of this. There are no other real bastards after all. Now back to American Idol.

[Behind the Aegis]

So, you have nothing? That's not unexpected.

At least another poster made an attempt.

[TwixVoy]

9. Yep I have nothing

it was all Madoff.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Sad.

[TwixVoy]

12. I know it is

sad I would think it wasn't all Madoff like the teevee told me.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Sad you can't respond to a question with answers to clarify your own post.

[TwixVoy]

23. Just see no need to respond to smart ass posts

Make a smart ass post get one back.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Asking for clarification is a "smart ass" post?

Sad.

[TwixVoy]

28. Seemed to be

I don't see how anyone could be so out of touch to NOT know what has been going on the past 18 months and who the key players are.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. I know him, and a few other names, but all of them fall under him...

...or don't have his power.

"I don't see how anyone could be so out of touch to NOT know what has been going on the past 18 months and who the key players are." Get out of the house, stop some random people, see how many even recognize Madoff's name. Much of what is happening is very complicated and most people don't know the "ins and outs."

[DemReadingDU]

50. My family is clueless

Seriously, they spend all their time working, hobbies and vacationing in exotic places. They don't watch TV nor listen to radio. Totally clueless.

They may hear snippets of people losing their jobs becoming homeless, but my family truly believes the economy is going to rebound in a few months.

They may have heard about somebody doing a Ponzi scheme, but I doubt they could say the name Madoff.

[rockymountaindem]

31. Madoff didn't cause this. He did rob lots of people of lots of money

He certainly deserves to be harshly punished for the crimes he committed. But it's not as if the system would be fine if only it weren't for him. It's like arguing that a single burglar is somehow responsible for the entire phenomenon of crime. He's not, but that doesn't mean we should let him off the hook either.

In summation:
Madoff = criminal huckster who should be put away for a long, long time
System = plenty weak regardless

[notadmblnd]

69. You're absolutely right. He's just one player in a great big game

[October]

44. What a weird response to a question.

You posted your theory and were asked about it. Why all the snorting?

[burythehatchet]

46. Because he is replying to a disruptor and Twixvoy's only mistake was to respond

[tanngrisnir3]

53. This, from the dumptruck who thinks that Cramer is a shadowy overlord?

That's not even 'C' grade comedy.

At least attempt to know what you're talking about before spewing frothy conjecture everywhere.

[Hannah Bell]

82. cramer *is* a shadowy overlord. he's been running a pump & dump shop for years

via thestreet.com (with marty peretz) & on his various tv shows, you think nobody *knew*? the media honchos cutting his checks, you think they're naive? you think he'd be on tv or his thestreet website would have so quickly risen, or he would have gotten his book deals if a lot of people weren't supporting his scam?

[scarletwoman]

5. Predatory capitalists. Who did YOU think they were?

[Ikonoklast]

7. You know who they are.

We all know.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. No, I don't. Which is why I asked.

Are you agreeing with readmoreoften's suggestion? Or are there others?

[Ikonoklast]

15. Then you are being either deliberately obtuse

or willfully ignorant.

Your choice.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Personal insults is all you have? Classy.

[Ikonoklast]

19. I made an observation of the demonstrated facts available.

If you do not care for the conclusion I have made, add more information.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. No thanks. I found someone who was more than willing to help me and not insult me.

[Ikonoklast]

25. I assume the 'Google' is broke for you, then.

http://www.marketrap.com/article/view_article/9152/bernard-madoff-the-mafia-and-the-friends-of-michael-milken

I can help you. Here's a start.

And if you think I was insulting you, you need a much thicker skin.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Implying someone is obtuse or ignorant is generally considered insulting.

Google is not broken, but it is a big place and there are many things and if I don't have the basics, it won't make any sense.

You were insulting me and but I didn't say my feelings were hurt. My skin is pretty think, I grew up around all kinds of bigots, so insults on-line rarely get to me.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mod mom]

41. Why not go way back to the era of the robber barons causing the last great depression?

[rollingrock]

14. It's impossible for one guy

to run a financial scam of this unimaginable scale.

there were literally tens of thousands of investors involved.

If Madoff's scam was a corporation, the size of it would rival Wal-Mart or Microsoft.

How many people does it take to run a business of that scale?? Don't tell me Bill Gates runs Microsoft by himself.

[fed_up_mother]

47. Bingo!

Many people were involved in running that ponzi scheme, and they all thought they could because they had friends in high places.

[anigbrowl]

66. It doesn't take that many people

I used to have clients (in a computer business) who ran hedge funds with a couple of billion under management - usually it was just 4 or 5 guys. I'd be surprised if Madoff's operation employed more than 30 people.

[rollingrock]

73. I think there was a lot more then 30 involved.

how many lawmakers and regulatory agencies did it take to turn a blind eye for so long?
how many people at the SEC and other agencies were involved with the cover-up? how is it possible to hide a scam of this magnitude for so long? how many hands needed to be greased?
running a lawful 2 billion dollar hedgefund is one thing, but i think what it takes for a huge scam like this to exist for so long is something else entirely.

[anigbrowl]

77. Reality is that regulators ratrely pick on someone for being too profitable

A lot of people are happy to lookthe other way as long as nobody is complaining, even if they suspect the numbers look a little bit too good. Most SEC investigations are triggered in response to people crying that they lost out in some way. Nobody wants to mess with success.

[Hannah Bell]

83. how much stock do you have to hold to control a corporation?

i've read something in the neighborhood of 1-5%.

[aquart]

18. So he did not run a 50 billion dollar ponzi scheme?

[rollingrock]

22. No, Madoff was defintely involved in the 50b ponzi

but suggesting that he was the only one responsible for it is like saying Bush was the only one responsible for the crimes of his administration.

[specimenfred1984]

26. I read a few article about his ties to organized crime overseas

and that one fund manager killed himself over it and another one was missing. Of course there's the culture of corruption that allowed it to happen here that is massive in size as well.

[Last Stand]

54. Markopoulos mentioned the Russian Mafia.

He said that once that kind of money is involved, it's inevitable that organized crime will come for their piece of the action. It's why Markopoulos remained anonymous--he knew he'd be killed if they knew he was turning in Madoff.

The reason that Madoff is pleading guilty is that he is getting some sort of back door deal on the other end. They will probably spare his family in exchange for keeping this story contained. This story would be far too big to handle if it got dragged out in court. There are dozens of people complicit in this and each would be giving up the other if it came out in public, and it would shake what's left of the public's shattered faith in the financial system. The whole of Madoff's story is too much of a threat to tell. It's not just the Mafia, it's the Investment Houses, the Madoff family, the SEC and some of our wonderful politicians. NO WAY this story gets out.

I can't wait to read the book.

[JackRiddler]

32. Do you remember how the Madoff story started in the news reports?

Supposedly, after 35 years, he tearfully confessed his ponzi scheme to his family -- all of whom were employed as officers in the scam! My, how they must have been shocked, shocked to learn the news!

Very good point in the OP, thanks.

Here's what I think is the most important thing about Madoff: he is one of the inventors of the NASDAQ as we know it today, and was chairman of the company board for many years. That history needs to be rewritten in the light of his criminality, and that of so many others.

That ain't no anomaly. The entire banking class is a pirate class.

Check out the various Madoff stories in my posts on this VERY LONG thread from another board:
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?p=251711

Scroll down to the section that starts with "A Small Madoff Compendium" and read especially the story by Fingleton about the WSJ failure to report about Madoff even though they had the information in 2005!

Actually here's the Fingleton story in original link:
http://www.unsustainable.org/index.asp?type=article&contentID=45

The Wall Street Journal and the New York Times slept while Bernie Madoff swindled

By Eamonn Fingleton



An old maxim has it that newspaper editors separate the wheat from the chaff, then print the chaff. By this standard, the editors of the Wall Street Journal have shown special deftness in their handling of the Madoff affair.

They used the occasion of whistleblower Harry Markopolos’ testimony in Washington recently to address seemingly every minuscule detail of the scam. They even published an irrelevant, if lovingly crafted, floor plan of Bernard Madoff's office in the Midtown Manhattan Lipstick build­ing. Yet, in all their apparent desire to “flood the zone” (maybe they’re angling for a Pulitzer!), one detail was missing. Not a word of explanation was offered about the curious role played by the Journal’s own Washington-based investigative reporter John R. Wilke.

As Markopolos’ written testimony has made clear, Wilke long ago knew the score. As far back as 2005, he had been entrusted with Markopolos’ now famous dossier raising no less than 29 red flags about Madoff. It is hardly an exaggeration to say that, on the strength of an afternoon’s research, a good reporter could have worked up any one of Markopolos’ points into a cracker of a front-page story. Taken as a whole, the dossier represented the biggest “career development opportunity” any journalist has been handed since Deep Throat delivered the goods on Richard Nixon to Woodward and Bernstein a generation ago.

See also the Madoff related stuff in the long thread here:
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=21495&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Above all, Madoff implicates the SEC as a completely corrupt agency. They were informed about his activities at length by Markopolos starting in the 1990s. And the WSJ, who got the Markopolos dossier in 2005.

But also his partners in the Primex Trading venture, who happened to be: Citibank, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and Merill Lynch. They all mysteriously didn't ever invest in his fund -- basically because they knew it was a fraud, and this was even said openly at Goldman -- but they were happy to try to set up a trading platform with him to fleece the sheep.

Incroyable!

[truedelphi]

34. Great information, and also massive proof there about how

The M$M is always entangled in what ever scam needs to paly out.

The NYT did not feel the need to examine George W's claims that we need to go to war against Iraq immediately. War is good for the news paper business.

And the WSJ would sooner help its friends on Wall St than watch out for the nation's economic wellbeing.

[adamuu]

35. to the greatest page... n/t

[acmavm]

36. Oh for shit's sake, who's distracted? Some of us can keep our eyes

on the republican's, understand Phil Grahamm's part in this mess, know that these people were/are being protected by the powers that were, understand the Fed and it's part in this fiasco, AND STILL BE ABLE TO RANT AND RAVE ABOUT MADOFF BECAUSE HE'S A DAMN CRIMINAL.

Now, apparently you can't walk and chew gum at the same time, but a lot of us can.

[closeupready]

42. Thank you. I was just going to post the same thing. These 'distraction' conspiracy theories

get silly. The attempt to equate the story of one of the most massive financial crimes in US history with American Idol or Britney Spears' headline-making personal problems really is ridiculous.

No offense, threadstarter, but really, it is.

[TwixVoy]

56. Apparently "a lot" is not enough

seeing as I am not aware of anyone else going to jail for this mess. Sad truth is 95% of the country can only pay attention to whatever the media is showing them.

[KittyWampus]

70. #1. You need evidence of an actual crime to put someone in jail. That's how our legal system works

#2. How do you know that Madoff isn't cooperating with Justice?
#3. How do you know if others he is involved with are being investigated?

[marions ghost]

37. True and it needs to be said again & again

Even though we at DU know all this, the OP is talking about the general public.

There are plenty of people who don't know (or want to deny) the masterful criminal scheming that has led us to this point. Madoff will be the fall guy and many people WILL think that a correction has been made. People don't want to think that the whole system is a cesspool of corruption so entrenched as to be almost impossible to clean up. Too shameful and scary.

Even those who got screwed by Madoff were fully cognizant of what was going on. Easy to look the other way when you're cashing in "legally."

There are many who need to walk the plank, but the system protects them.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. Sorry, But You're Being Silly

A guy with the clout to get $50 billion in investments and then siphon off $3 billion of it IS ONE OF THE POWERS THAT BE! You say he's the one the "powers that be" want us to hate. But, clearly he's one of the powers that be.

So, you're not making any sense.

Look who's talking about being easily distracted!
GAC

[TwixVoy]

57. $50 billion is NOTHING

it may be a big number to you, but in the grand scheme of things it is a pittance for the ultra wealthy. Fuck, the top 1% DAY TRADES $50 billion a day.

[Greyhound]

39. I think you are probably right about this, but add Stanford. They are the ones picked

to be thrown out to satiate the mob while hundreds (thousands?) of others will walk away with our legacy to set up shop on the new feeding grounds.

It might also be relevant to point out that these two in particular did more than steal from working class pensioners and charities, they stole from very rich and powerful people.

[Enthusiast]

40. Rec.

I like this:
"Make no mistake if anyone in any position of power really wanted Madoff dealt with they would have done it YEARS ago easily."

[DemReadingDU]

48. Similar to Martha Stewart

After a highly publicized, five-week jury trial that was the most closely watched of a wave of corporate fraud trials, Stewart was found guilty in March 2004 of conspiracy, obstruction of an agency proceeding, and making false statements to federal investigators and sentenced in July 2004 to serve a five month term in a federal correctional facility and a two year period of supervised release (to include five months of home confinement).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Stewart



Yet, the main fraudsters are still on the loose.

[bluesmail]

49. Excellent analogy. eom

[TwixVoy]

58. How quickly we forget eh?

[KittyWampus]

71. it is patently absurd to compare Stewarts skirting rules to Madoff. You are posting something so

stupid it hurts.

[Canuckistanian]

78. Stewart was convicted on obstruction. It had nothing to do with corporate fraud

The poorest person in America could have been put away on the same charge.

She lied to investigators. Same as Scooter Libby.

[Fleshdancer]

51. stealing $65 billion doesn't make him "small time" anything

While I agree that he's just one part of a very large problem, we can't make his crime out to be insignificant. I see nothing wrong with wanting to see him locked up and I don't think this distracts us from the overall picture.

[TwixVoy]

59. 65 billion is chump change

I don't think you realize just how much money the top 1% controls. 65 billion is a drop in the bucket to them.

[Hubert Flottz]

52. Exxon was swiping 50 billion every six months at the gas pumps

And Bush was patting them on the back all the time gasoline was over four dollars a gallon.

[Skidmore]

55. Yup, been wondering myself if there were any other prosecutions

lined up for the cooking of the books the lending corporations have been doing. WHy isn't Chris Cox being held responsible for greasing the skids for his good buddies as head of the SEC?

[ejpoeta]

60. i know that the victims of that scam that have been on tv have all said

that the SEC and the IRS should have been right there with Madoff in court. One lady on CNN refused to accept any responsibility for being scammed (which she shouldn't), as the anchor said there was plenty of blame to go around. I can see what you are saying. He pled guilty, and my fear is that it will end there. At the very least the SEC should be held accountable as they were warned many times about Madoff.

[TwixVoy]

61. After 8 years of this same BS

I don't know how many times we have to see this same cycle before people figure out they are being treated to a show. How many fall guys did the bush admin use during 8 years? Every time they had someone take a fall you would see tons of people shout "This is it! They are going down!" only for everything to be quickly forgotten and the media declare justice had been served after the fall guy was taken out.

This economic disaster will be the same story. No one of any real power will be held accountable.

[ejpoeta]

63. Oh, I know. And you are so right. I guess there is a reason that

in other countries the government is afraid of the people. Here, it's like parents who always threaten they are going to punish you, but never follow through. They know damned well we won't do anything and will have forgotten all about it in a month. It is really rather sickening.

[newtothegame]

62. :) Unfortunately, I was reminded of "1984"...

with all the discussions of hanging John yoo for writing memos. "Thoughtcrime," anyone?

[seemslikeadream]

64. and dead men tell no tales

Monsieur Rene Thierry Magon de La Villehuchet.

[earth mom]

65. People are pissed at Madoff, but they are smart enough to know that he's just one crook of many.

Starting with * & Cheney.

Anyone who is paying attention knows that Wall Street is to blame and that the system is FUBAR but also that the government had a major role in allowing Wall Street to get away with the heist of the century.

I want to see ALL those god damn crooks do jail time. :grr:

[notadmblnd]

67. Link to my post, he was just ordered to jail

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5238919&mesg_id=5238919

I'm sure you're right on this.

[anigbrowl]

68. Nonsense. Madoff is a bad egg, not a distraction.

There's a lot of other bad eggs out there, and there are also a lot of neutral or even good eggs who were over-confident or under-comptetent. The entire financial sector needs an enema and a new, much stricter, regulatory framework. That doesn't alter the fact that Madoff is a criminal of the first order and deserves to die in jail.

[Uncle Joe]

72. Madoff served the purpose of a whistle on a tea kettle

something that would make a lot of noise, while allowing the public to vent all that angry steam, but the tea kettle, it self has been corrupted not just the lid.

Will the corporate media focus on other aspects of Wall Street to Washington's corruption, not just Madoff?

[ColbertWatcher]

74. Interesting point. Madoff takes the heat off the late (?) Kenneth Lay.

And all his confederates.

Not to mention all the GOP economic sleeper cells waiting for the next order.

[KamaAina]

75. It was only the Two Minutes Hate

but then, that was 1984, if it was 1984.

Actually, these days, it's the Three Hours Hate, with de facto RNC chair Rush the OxyMoron as Big Brother.

[redqueen]

76. Yep.

K&R

[whopis01]

79. It was only a 'two minute hate' n/t

[WhiteTara]

80. no trial, just jail.

maybe a good scene when the "victims" whine and moan with their 5 minutes of hate.

[Hannah Bell]

81. i just posted more or less the same thought. i think he's a knowing fall guy, though.

[wroberts189]

86. Sacrifice himself for his family? Is that the theory?

[Bluebear]

84. 'How easily we are distracted.' Well, if that isn't bizarre.

Is this another of your "people are stupid" posts?

[wroberts189]

85. Perhaps ..but I wonder how he likes that jail cell.

Perhaps he will decide to tell a bit more soon.