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Someone please remind me why America is so great.

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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:59 PM
Original message
Someone please remind me why America is so great.
About 30 million of us can't get a job at all. Millions of those who do have a job (or three or four) work the longest hours in the civilized world for below-poverty wages and no benefits. Those anachronistic middle class people who make a "living" wage and have benefits must now work longer and longer hours and find that the benefits are often unusable or have become worthless now that the economy is in the toilet.

Our political "leaders" work for our enemies and simply ignore our votes when it suits them.

Our roads, bridges, schools, power grid and other public infrastructure have not been up to current standards since the 1960's.

Our health care system serves only insurance companies, wealthy doctors and the ultra-wealthy elite who can afford care. Sick citizen? You are fucked, pal.

Our education system is an underfunded, overly politicized joke.

Our economic system has been hijacked by a relative handful of predatory, greedy vermin who now own virtually everything, including our homes. We no longer have a viable manufacturing base. Indeed, we couldn't last two weeks without importing poisonous crap from China.

Our civil liberties have gone the way of the dodo bird; we now must shuffle through lines like a bunch of docile concentration camp inmates just to travel from one state to another. And god forbid your name (or one similar to it) ends up on the wrong government shitlist.

Our media are owned by our enemies, so the LAST thing you'll ever hear on the "public airwaves" is an ounce of truth.

How is this all that different from, say, the Soviet Union circa 1965? I mean except for the part where we don't really have health care or a manufacturing base or an education system. More to the point, how is this really any different from, say, England in the 1300's?

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. the difference: they say "have a nice day" as they kick you in the teeth
'cause we're all civilized now, doncha know. :evilgrin:
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
169. thank you for shopping WalMart.
Have a blessed day!


KICK! CRUNCH!
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. And the rightwing answer is: "If you don't like it, then you can leave." n/t
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. it's not only the RW saying this lately n/t
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
70. do it, leave, I did, I am far happier in France than I was in the USA
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #70
90. How did you leave?
How did you go about moving to France? Was it difficult to orchestrate?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #90
98. oops, wrong place
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 11:04 AM by Greyhound



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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #90
101. I was lucky
I met and fell in love with a French woman in Chicago, so I got nationality really easily. Otherwise you have to find a job first in France, that will get you a visa. If you have a masters degree in any subject you can get a job lecturing english at the university over here pretty easy, pay is ok, you work 12 hours a week 6 months a year and get 1250 euros after tax each month, not bad over here. Problem is that job is temporary between 2 and 6 years depending on the university. But that may soon change. At any rate that would leave you time to learn the langauge and look for work afterwards. Do not forget that the Netherlands have a social system as well, and they have 2 official languages, Dutch and English. Scotland also has a good social system, not England, just Scotland.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #70
99. Yes, please give up the information.
I know it is much more difficult/impossible with dogs, so we will have to wait, but we are really serious about getting out while it is still possible.

We've already gone through the usual sources and are looking for any tips/tricks alternate avenues.


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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. I have a couple of friends
she is French he is from the bay area in the USA. They just moved to France from the USA and brought their 2 dogs and 3 cats with them.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #70
115. Aren't they rioting and striking
in France because of the economy?
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #115
152. we went on strike in France
the riots were in Greece.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. because we can fix all of this
Times are tough, but this country has been through worse. America will never be a utopia, but even with all our current problems, we still have it pretty damn good.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yup. Our system of government allows for non-violent "civil wars". (nt)
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. You sure the beaten, neutralized, bushified System is still capable of such?
I no longer am sure.

I hope you are correct in your implied statement that there is still a "system" in place other than Imperial Bushie Will.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
47. Yeah. I think we're improving things. Big business still has way too much power over the government.
I think we weeded out a lot of corruption with these past elections, but we still have yet to follow up on that corruption and allow the rule of law to take precedence over the rule of men. It will be tempting to brush off that law enforcement as a big hassle, but it needs to be done so that others can't easily follow in the law breakers' footsteps.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
141. Who won the last presidential election?
The old-guard Democratic candidate? The just-old Republican candidate? Or the biracial fella with a funny name that no one outside of Illinois (and most in Illinois) had never heard of before 2004?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #141
162. The Pritzker/Crown nominee.
Edited on Sat Feb-07-09 04:18 AM by Hannah Bell
The gates/buffett nominee.


Penny Sue Pritzker (born 1959) is an American business executive, and a member of the Pritzker family of Chicago, one of America's wealthiest business families... and the national finance chair of Barack Obama's presidential campaign. Ms. Pritzker is estimated to be the 135th richest person on the Forbes 400 list of "America's wealthiest," with an estimated net worth of $2.8 billion US.<1>

On November 20, 2008, CNN reported that Pritzker is Barack Obama's top choice for Commerce Secretary, quoting "multiple" unnamed sources.<2> However, it was later reported that Pritzker took herself out of the running due to concerns about her confirmation.<3><4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Pritzker .

...On Wednesday July 2, 2008, Ms. Pritzker and her husband hosted a $28500 per plate fundraiser for Mr. Obama's campaign in Chicago with Warren Buffett ...

Buffett to Buy Marmon From Pritzker Family...

Buffett To Take Reins of Pritzker firm...
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Explain how we have been through worse?
You cannot compare this to the great depression in any sense. It was not even close to the same as it is now and to even try to say we have benn through worse is utter none sense and all it is is a talking point that means absolutely nothing.

Look around, we have perhaps 10 times the population , we don't have factories ready to go , they are not just closed they are gone. Many other countries have nukes now. The education system is crap. We have a complete global economy now.

So just how have we been through worse? What are you using to compare this to?

We had a real media then and people knew where they stood and people were much in the same boat where we are not now. Corporations did not amount to a few who owned and controlled everything .

If I hear this again I'll go mad. It's insane news speak.

The list is endless of how different it is now than then , endless.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. the Civil War and the Great Depression were probably worse, yes.
I was referring to the quality of life for Americans, but I wasn't just referencing our own history. Compared to many parts of the world, we're doing pretty well. Like I said, America has never been and never will be a utopia, but considering we are discussing our first world problems from various locations around the country due to our advances in technology, I don't think life is all that bad for most Americans. Yes it can and should get better, and this is why I think highly of this country.

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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. yes, my life will be a wonderful bed of roses and delicious elixirs,
all because for at least another month or two I have access to the Internet...

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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. I'm hurting too
and I'm sick of this financial crisis like everyone else, but a little perspective is in order. Our immediate needs are being met, we're free to bash our government, we're communicating because we're educated enough and well equipped enough to do so, we're not born into a caste system, we can vote, the Constitution managed to survive the Bush administration, and we have an infrastructure in place to repair. This isn't the case for many people on this planet.

For the third time, you'll never hear me say America is perfect, but we have a lot going for us.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
62. "Our immediate needs are being met" really? I can't even afford a cancer
screening but if I lived in the EU, Canada or even Cuba I would be able to find out if that lump in my breast is anything to worry about. "we're communicating because we're educated enough and well equipped enough to do so" no, that doesn't apply to everyone. The illiteracy rate in this country is shocking and inexcusable." we can vote" most can, but those votes aren't always counted." the Constitution managed to survive the Bush administration" not all of it. With the wealth and creativity that exists in this Nation we SHOULD be in a much better place than we are. However, the entire system has been manipulated to serve our largest corporations and the wealthiest elite. The rest of us are expected to serve their needs without questions or expectations.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
68. I'm sorry to hear about the lump
I hope it isn't cancer. I don't know if you're eligible for it, but the CDC provides breast and cervical cancer screening and diagnostic services. http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/NBCCEDP/about.htm

When I said immediate needs, I simply meant that the majority of Americans are not in extreme poverty which means living on less than $1/day. Compare the problems of the average American to the one billion humans currently in extreme poverty on this planet.

In every post I've written in this thread I have pointed out that America isn't perfect. I agree we have problems, but our problems are far less severe and I honestly believe we have the capability to fix every issue you brought up.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
177. Great points but the part about the caste system...
...Evidence is we've been fitted with a "soft caste."
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. How does it get better?
During the depression, we had a manufacturing base that we could restart -- gone now.
We had a well-trained and educated workforce -- gone now.

We had cheap energy -- gone now.

We had thousands and thousands of family farms that could absorb out-of-work people -- gone now.

Medical care was affordable -- gone now.

We had strong unions -- gone now.

We had newspapers that actually cared about the people in their communities -- gone now.

There were countries willing to buy what we manufactured -- but we don't make anything now.

Most people lived in cities -- or on farms -- now what's left of the middle class lives in the energy-intensive suburbs.

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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. "gone now"
:cry:
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. alternative energy, education, technology, and universal health care
What's the point of giving up exactly?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. there comes a point when "fixing" is not viable
and "replacing" becomes the only realistic option.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #33
64. Our workforce before the Depression was not well educated.
We did not have strong unions prior to the Depression either. Those were an invention of the circumstances of the Depression.


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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
129. Where's the bread lines?
And our workforce didn't up and leave--the jobs did.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
178. Not exactly...
During the depression, we had a manufacturing base that we could restart -- gone now.
-There was no capital spending to restart the base. Capital still exists but it now flows overseas.

We had a well-trained and educated workforce -- gone now.
-People were not as well-educated as you might imagine. It was common to drop out of school early. College experience, much less degrees, was rare while today it and the sheepskin are commonplace.

We had cheap energy -- gone now.
-We had cheap, DIRTY energy then. We also had less energy intensive lifestyles. Our greater employ of energy seems to be a great thing when we need help or are posting on the Internet.

We had thousands and thousands of family farms that could absorb out-of-work people -- gone now.
-The jobless and homeless numbers then were so astronomical they couldn't be absorbed. Family farms were lost in the Depression as well. The Dust Bowl laid waste to the nation's breadbasket. Forty percent of the farms in Mississippi were on the auction block on the day of FDR's 1933 inauguration.

Medical care was affordable -- gone now.
-Medical care was primitive, that why it was affordable. Mortality rates were much higher.

We had strong unions -- gone now.
-The unions became strong during the Depression because of what happened then.

We had newspapers that actually cared about the people in their communities -- gone now.
-Newspapers then were what they are now: made up of lots of individuals (both selfish and altruistic) and owned by businessmen.

There were countries willing to buy what we manufactured -- but we don't make anything now.
-The Depression wasn't just in this country, it stretched around the globe.

Most people lived in cities -- or on farms -- now what's left of the middle class lives in the energy-intensive suburbs.
-The majority of American population resided in cities after the end of WWI. The Roaring Twenties did nothing to slow that down. You're right about suburbs being energy intensive, but there are ways to change that. People dispersed, they can gather.

All of my grandparents spent the Depression in the rural south. Five of my great grandparents were alive when I was born. I've heard lots and lots of stories about that time and it was hard on everyone, hard in a way Americans now can't imagine.

It's not as bad as it's been. We can still do something to turn things around but only if we're ready to learn.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Most american's?
Most americans are sitting on the edge of a cliff and many don't even realize it yet because they are in denile. Many have already hit the bottom and many may be out of a job tomarrow and end up in some tent city.

Third world countries have been at the bottom for ever and we and other coutries robbed them of their resources and this does not make american a great country.

Quality of life depends on who you are talking to and what that damn TV set shows you which is so far from reality that it's painful. They never show reality , do you see tent cities or people sleeping on the street or dumpster diving , no, what you see is the perfect family with the perfect job all there so people don;t see the truth and panic.

What is the american quality of life now , a computer or an I-phone or is it living under a bridge looked at as a failure even when you worked all your life and wound up losing everything because your job packed up and was shipped out over seas and you find out in one day that now you are out looking for that one job that 1,000 people are in line for. Or your have a job but no healthcare or something called healthcare that pays for nothing.

When americans have to compete with third world wages as it is now then we failed , like the old saying , they outsourced the blue collar workers job but I was not blue collar so I said nothing then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me and there you go , right into the ether.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
104. If you honestly think the Great Depression was not objectively "worse" than our current economic
crisis, I question your historical knowledge. In the 30's, unemployment hovered around 25%, vast stretches of farmland turned to dust, and the country damn near fell apart. We're undoubtedly in the beginning of a very serious economic crisis, but we aren't in the ballpark of the Great Depression quite yet.

That's not to say the our current situation isn't grave, or that from an individual perspective it may not be every bit as bad, but a bit of perspective is necessary.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #104
176. in 1930 ue = 8%, kinda like now. it took a couple more years to get to 25%.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, it's like you just got hired to run a big-ass farm,
they show you a big shiny barn, but when you open the door it's piled to the rafters with pig and cow shit.

That's what Obama is facing with the USA that bush left him.

I'm ready to grab a shovel and pitch in.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. We are 'great' because we are ignorant
as a populace. Joe the Plumber thinks America is great, except (of course) for all those despicable liberals.
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Seeing old ironsides wheeled out while a real champion works full court
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. When the bosses in the 1300's shafted the people they didn't telll them it was for their own good.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. It depends on who you compare us to - ie what part of Africa do you prefer?
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 06:15 PM by stray cat
Somalia? The grass is generally greener someplace else but you can usually find someone worse off through no fault of there own or any any brilliance on your part.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. True. Next to our fellow Third World Nations, we are KING!
whoopee...
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. "We're Number One!"
is such a load of number two.
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
80. .
:headbang: :cry:

As rich 1st-worlders we're the ones blowing away the future of the entire planet.
I have such mixed feelings about all this.. I mean Democracy rocks, but our Education & Healthcare are nothing to be proud of.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
109. What nation as a whole has better economic prosperity, culture, and civil liberties?
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 04:26 PM by Raskolnik
I'll admit that there are some northern European nations that arguably right there with us for most purposes, Canada is basically U.S. lite, and Japan has some nifty stuff, but what nation on earth do you think clearly surpasses the U.S.?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #109
126. You know very little about Canada if you think they are USA "lite".
Canadians do NOT subscribe to the fundie religious propaganda that has screwed up the U.S. in more ways than can be counted.

Canadians do NOT buy into the terrorism that the U.S. uses to scare and control the populace.

Canadians do NOT lose everything they own if they get seriously ill and there would be hell to pay if they did.

Canadians do NOT put politicians on pedestals and instead expect them to do their damn jobs or get the hell out.

Canadians do NOT live to become rich & famous which is what blinds far too many Americans from looking after & protecting their own jobs and lifestyle.



The difference between Canada and the USA is that Canadians have the common sense to protect themselves first and foremost.

Canadians are really more like the French than I'm sure many of them would be willing to admit.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. This magical land of "Canada" you speak of sounds like a paradise.
Oh, c'mon. I think Canada is nice enough--the people are polite, the cities are cold, and there is hot and cold running back-bacon, but living in Canada is like going to prom with your sister. Sure she may be pretty, and has good manners, but wouldn't you rather go with the punk chick that lives one street south of your sister--the one that drives the Camaro and drinks Jack Daniels and dances and stays out till 4am having a good time?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. Wake up and smell the corruption and the bullshit.
Given the amount of times you have posted in this thread, it's obvious that you can't handle the truth about your precious United States. :eyes:
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. Corruption and bullshit? I thought that was maple syrup!
I'm not at all unwilling to address flaws in the U.S.--I simply find the gnashing of teeth on this thread about the horrors of living in modern America more than a little silly due to their lack of perspective.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. Have you ever lived on the edge? Almost lost your home? Lived paycheck to paycheck?
If so, then you would know what most of us on this thread are talking about.

It's easy to brush it all aside when you have no worries.

Try walking in other peoples shoes for a change.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. Poverty, corruption, injustice, and general douchebaggery are unfortunately human conditions
that are not unique to the U.S.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think the toilets are much better.
English toilets of the 1300's would have been ghastly. Plus I think they were actually still burning folks at the stake. The plague was doing brisk business, too. Science was in the pits, thanks to the Church.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. if you are homeless,
the toilets still suck.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Fair enough.
I think the rest of my post stands, though. I'm no big "USA!" cheerleader, but I think we still compare favorably to pre-Renaissance England.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. modern technology is indeed superior,
but that is not a substitute for leading a meaningful life or having rights...

We've basically regressed to a point prior to the Magna Carta...
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. LOL.
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 07:05 PM by Starry Messenger
Whatever.

Just being female in modern times America is 1000x better than being female in the 1300's England. I agreed with your post until you got to the 1300s England bit. Pull the other one, its got bells on.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. If you were a *slave* in the US today,
you'd have nicer toilets, little fear of the black plague and no reason to expect burning at the stake.

That doesn't make being a slave a good thing.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Good thing I didn't say that. n/t
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
108. Being a female now is better than being a female even 70 years ago.
Here at my University, in the 1930s women had to have parental permission to attend football games, and they had a 10pm curfew. The men "had" a curfew as well, but theirs was never enforced. In terms of social liberty, we are at an apex of civilization.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
111. "We've basically regressed to a point prior to the Magna Carta"
You aren't being serious, are you? I can't quite believe that you are, but I just want to be sure.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
61. In Madison they just use the bathroom at Taco Bell.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's candied apples and ponies with dapples...
...you can ride all day!
It's girls with pimples
And cripples with dimples
that just wont go away !
Its s***s and w**s and n*****s and k***s
with noses as long as your arm!
Its m***s and c***ks and g***s and geeks (I think that one is allowed on DU!)
and honkies
(Honk! Honk!)
who never left the farm !

- The Firesign Theatre
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. No difference do I see.!
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 06:19 PM by Lost4words
Isnt it crazy! We have been told so many lies from one authority to another, I would be a fool to believe any more of their garbage.

(compose then spell check note to self)

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. we have running water?
if we can afford it?

:(
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. yeah, but for how much longer?
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. I live here
And as a shining example of what we should all endeavor to be, you should feel lucky to have me. :)

TlalocW
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. yes, by jingo!
;-)
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. In Dumberica, you'd better be willing to . . .
. . . COUGH UP if you even want to get slightly ahead.

Never mind getting comfortable . . . pipe dreams are under the bed.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
24. dont forget our 2 expensive bullshit wars for no reason. nt
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. when it comes to killing innocent brown-skinned civilians,
USA! NUMBER ONE! USA! NUMBER ONE!
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
124. We would have to try pretty hard to get within sight of Britain on that account.
Give it another 200 years or so, and maybe we'll talk.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. We're not perfect...






...but we're not perfectly awful, either.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
29. It's very different from the Soviet Union...
in all reality, you are way overblowing the situation and making it look silly with such a comparison. Our standard of living is so much higher it's not even funny. Still, I do think we are wholly idiotic when it comes to health care, drug policy, sexual education, poverty fighting, certain infrastructure projects (ie mass transit), an unwillingness to start revamping all of our power grid and infrastructure to make it much more efficient and less dependent on dirty fuels, a pretty silly media (though there are still some good things out there), and certain civil liberties (gay marriage).

The great part is this: We actually have the ability to change ALL of these things. Not every country can say that. Now we just need the political will, and unfortunately, the Repubs are a political anvil of death, and the Democrats are running the boat on a lawnmower engine.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Considering where we were ten, or thirty, years ago,
we are headed directly and swiftly toward the comparison you call silly.

Point at that ability of which you speak. Please.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Easy
We have the most powerful economy in the world, much more powerful even in this recession than the economy of 1965 SU ever was. That means we still have the resources to fund those infrastructure projects and poverty fighting programs. The other stuff does not depend on physical resources, like gay marriage obviously. And in all honesty, demographics and time are on our side with regards to this country moving farther left. To be crass, the faster certain members the older generation goes away, the better for our country.

Everything is pointing towards us have the ability, and eventually the political will, to at least start moving in the right direction.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Who is the "we" you keep referring to?
Unless you are a super-wealthy capitalist, you are not part of any "we" that has the characteristics to which you refer.

"Political will" (unless you are one of the 1200 or so richest people on Earth) is as bankrupt a myth as the notion of a "liberal media."
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. "We" Americans, of course.
But if you think we're fucked if we do, fucked if we don't, no matter what, I won't try to convince you otherwise. Just don't know why you even bother to come to this site with that kind of defeatist attitude. I'm guessing you have some sort of hope.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. I'm just saying that all evidence I see points to the conclusion
that "democracy" is broken. It is an illusion. It is a game the real power lets us keep playing as a distraction.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
36. Because one can make a boatload of money here
And one can drive a great big car
On great big roads
Paying very little for gasoline
And live in a great big house
And pay relatively little in taxes.

The health care system can bankrupt or kill you.
Without tons of money or genius level IQ you can't afford college
And you may never find security
And you will have to watch the old and poor all around you
Suffer and die needlessly.

You're no more free here than you are in many other places.
In some ways much less so.
Technological wonders and conveniences
Are also better in many other places.

If you are among a certain class of worker
You can earn a lot more money than someone in other countries.
If you are super rich,
Your tax burden is super low
Compared to other places.

If you are lucky and clever enough
To make big money
And drive a big car
And live in a great big house
America is great.
If you're not,
And you care deeply about humanity
America is not so great.

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Sandrine for you Donating Member (635 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. Hamberger ?
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
45. We have guns.
That will make the inevitable rioting and civil unrest a lot more effective.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. and lots of 'em
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SergeyDovlatov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
49. Compare to most other countries, it is. That is why ...
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 08:44 PM by SergeyDovlatov
people from other countries are working hard to work around the immigration laws to get in here.
Trust me, US is still a land of opportunity compared to other places.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. and so it will be as long as one doomed soul
continues to cling desperately to the last cushion on the last deck chair on the Titanic?
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SergeyDovlatov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. who knows, may be China or other country will become ...
a beacon of opportunity in the 21st century.

As Jim Rogers said:

"If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia."

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
53. We have football!
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. No you don't. You have a sad mockery of the real thing.
Real Madrid!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Ok fine... we have something that should be named something other than football!
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. ...
:evilgrin:
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
136. Twelve-inch ball?
Third-of-a-yard ball?

Twelfth-of-a-gross ball?

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Flying Dream Blues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
56. Let's see.. tough questions there at the end. I'm guessing it's the deodorant? nt

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. And the haircuts. No one has better hair care than the USA! USA! USA!
n/t
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. I like cake.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
63. One huge difference: if you criticize the government, you aren't shot.
Case in point, you are not dead yet.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. good difference.
what about the rest of the OP?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
65. Compared to much of the world we have it pretty damn good.
Of course we can always improve.

The grass is not always greener.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #65
75. no doubt most of the world is even worse off
that doesn't make it better here

think of how this country used to be before the predator repuke capitalists took over
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
67. Go to Venezuela.
Chavez will take care of you.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #67
77. love it or leave it.
no surprise coming from you.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #77
160. Well you're the one condemning /the whole country/.
I could see it being "love it or leave it" if you were criticizing this or that aspect of it and had some sort of plan to improve it, but you're just like "blah". If it really is that bad then why stay?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #160
168. criticism is not condemnation.
"Your fathers have lived, died, and have done their work, and have done much of it well. You live and must die, and you must do your work. You have no right to enjoy a child's share in the labor of your fathers, unless your children are to be blest by your labors. You have no right to wear out and waste the hard-earned fame of your fathers to cover your indolence." --Frederick Douglass

Answer the criticism. Leave the ad hominem for the 9-11 dungeon.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #160
170. not so
Edited on Sat Feb-07-09 05:55 PM by Two Americas
The OP is criticizing the the rulers, not the country. "Staying" and dissenting do not contradict each other. Suggesting that they do is a right wing tactic for suppressing dissent. Only those who care about the state of the country express dissent. People express dissent because they care about the well being of others, not because they are worried only about themselves.

This is dishonest as well, because while it claims to solve the other person's supposed problem, it is really solving a problem for the speaker - their annoyance and discomfort at hearing any dissent, and their intolerance for it.

We have a long tradition of dissent. That is a strength not a weakness. It would seem that it is you who do not love certain aspects of America, and are complaining about the country every bit as much as the OP is. The difference is that the OP is complaining about the rulers, while you are complaining about everyday citizens engaged in their civic duty and taking responsibility as citizens and speaking out.


...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
69. Because... uh... the great myth lives on?
I got nuthin'.

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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
71. Live outside awhile the States and you will understand...
the answer to the questions above is that the rest of the world has experienced most of that and more because of globalization.

I always loved my country, but I seriously 'appreciate' my country more now after living abroad.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #71
78. I have.
I prefer the U.S.

But I prefer the U.S. that the repukes destroyed.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #78
85. That's a given... now they have destroyed the economy of the whole world
Unfortunately, there is nowhere to hide... Even a place like Dubai
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
72. Because you Americans say so!
It's an accepted American myth. "We are the greatest nation that ever lived." It's repeated ten thousand times a day all over America.

What "greatness" entails I don't know. Power? We are the most powerful?

I suspect it is better to be some inconspicuous peaceful little nation Like Sweden or Norway or Denmark.

Being "great" is probably overrated.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #72
82. yeah, but we could kick your ass if we really wanted to....
;-)
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
119. U.S. meme, "I'M THE GREATEST FUCKER HERE AND WITHOUT
ME YOU WOULD ALL DIE." Sickening, isn't it? And also FALSE.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
73. Because it's a land of immense beauty and potential
We could spend all day bitching about what's wrong

Or we could remind ourselves of why, in general, most of us are damn lucky to be here





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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #73
79. not to the point.
I can't eat pretty rocks.

or live under them.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #79
84. You could soak up the natural beauty and let it inspire you to do something great
Or you could wallow in misery until all your negative thoughts become self-fulfilling prophecies.

The choice is yours.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. dood, I'm like totally gonna mellow out
and like just chill in like Moab until everything is like better!

Right on!

There is beauty in my life. I'm not wallowing in misery. I'm pissed at how fucking thoroughly repukes have shit in our collective bed.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #84
180. Fortunately, we got to the leases
before they were executed.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
74. Other countries have worse problems
We don't have corruption in government on a level that they do in some other countries - if a police officer stops you, they have to prove you were speeding, and will not demand money to make it go away. This happens in Mexico, Russia. You don't have to bribe officials. Anyone who does that can end up getting punished. That alone is enough to get people motivated to come to the US to work for low wages and consider it wonderful.

We do change the government peacefully, even in 2000 there were no killings. Compare in other countries where a close election could end up in people getting killed (see Kenya, last election). We aren't so attached to one piece of land that we kill people, imagine living in the Balkans or in Palestine.

Any murder is investigated, even if it is old it can be looked into. In some countries, they don't have the resources or the will to do it - even murder isn't followed up on.

We don't have any real worries about being invaded. Imagine living in Iraq.

We still have an immigrant "problem." Everyone wants to come here. We don't have big emigration showing people want to get out.

Health care is better in a few other countries, but only a few.

Our work ethic is overblown, we need to get a life and work to live, not live to work, that is true. Canada, Australia, Northern Europe - all of those countries that have universal health care are ahead of us, that is true. We are dragging behind because of a strict Puritanical outlook on life and the right wing idiots having so much influence.





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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #74
81. "we" didn't change government in 2000. The George HW Bush Supreme Court did.
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 08:35 AM by leftofthedial
Our corruption makes Mexicans look like pikers. They just steal from all of us at once, in denominations that exceed our imaginations.

With nearly 5 million more jobs lost in the last year or so, we are now approaching 70 million Americans with NO health care coverage. They get a little bit sick (which will become more and more common as people lose their homes and ability to eat well) and the few left with jobs pay for it through taxes and increased premiums. They get big-time sick and they die (after leaving behind enormous public bills). This is not substantially different from the medical plight of any random citizen of the third world.

Our "immigrant problem" is already shrinking. Fewer and fewer see this as a land of opportunity.

Most of the world is worse. We can always find some horrific level of human misery to act as our lowest common denominator yardstick. That doesn't make what this country has become tolerable.

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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
171. Healthcare stats
Worlds Best Medical Care?

Editorial
The New York Times
August 12, 2007

Many Americans are under the delusion that we have the best health care system in the world, as President Bush sees it, or provide the best medical care in the world, as Rudolph Giuliani declared last week. That may be true at many top medical centers. But the disturbing truth is that this country lags well behind other advanced nations in delivering timely and effective care.

<snip>

Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. ...the United States was a dismal 37th.

<snip>

Insurance coverage. All other major industrialized nations provide universal health coverage, and most of them have comprehensive benefit packages with no cost-sharing by the patients. The United States, to its shame, has some 45 million people without health insurance and many more millions who have poor coverage...

<snip

Fairness. The United States ranks dead last on almost all measures of equity because we have the greatest disparity in the quality of care given to richer and poorer citizens. Americans with below-average incomes are much less likely than their counterparts in other industrialized nations to see a doctor when sick, to fill prescriptions or to get needed tests and follow-up care.

Healthy lives. We have known for years that America has a high infant mortality rate, so it is no surprise that we rank last among 23 nations by that yardstick. But the problem is much broader. We rank near the bottom in healthy life expectancy at age 60, and 15th among 19 countries in deaths from a wide range of illnesses that would not have been fatal if treated with timely and effective care.

<snip>

Quality. In a comparison with five other countries, the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States first in providing the right care for a given condition as defined by standard clinical guidelines and gave it especially high marks for preventive care, like Pap smears and mammograms to detect early-stage cancers, and blood tests and cholesterol checks for hypertensive patients. But we scored poorly in coordinating the care of chronically ill patients, in protecting the safety of patients, and in meeting their needs and preferences, which drove our overall quality rating down to last place. American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations.

<snip>


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html?p...

hardly commendable stats...
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
76. Not only is our country probably the worst in the industrialized world,
but it's clear that the best is all behind us, and the future looks very bleak, indeed.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
83. We are a waning nation. The heyday sure didnt last long.
And, as long as we continue to spend more on killing things than in helping others, we will never be great again.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
86. America just has
the most well oiled propaganda machine in history. It is a nation of conquest built on the backs of slaves and founded in the soils of native blood. Nothing to recommend with that.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. when the lords of our realm run out of "free" resources to exploit,
their capitalism collapses under its own weight of greed and corruption.

Then they have nothing left to consume as fuel for their own avarice except us.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #86
123. Preach brother!!!
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #86
125. Can you name a nation whose founding is not similarly marred? n/t
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #125
148. In 3000 years, India has never cultivated the practice of slavery.
Slavery is a concept most often found in 'ancient' times and most commonly the result of warfare, with the exception of some place like Egypt (one culture dominant of another.) This country used slavery as an 'enterprise,' like pirates, instead of building the country with their own labor. Secondly, no, there is no other country, other than Israel (and that's debatable)that was settled by 'confiscating' the original inhabitants
and throwing them on 'reservations,'(stealing land.) I know, also, that the American Indian originated in Asia, however, THEY were here on THIS land BEFORE the europeans landed, thus, they were the original inhabitants of this territory.
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #86
154. That is far too negative...

Gotta whistle while you work. Put on a happy face. Don't worry, be happy. Walk on sunshine.

Also, nationalize the banks...

...and the defense industries
...and the energy companies
...and the "health" companies
...and use the trillion bucks to give a job to all 20 million unemployed (at $50,000 per person) tomorrow and decide what they should build later (next week)
...and dismantle 90% of the Defense budget and 100% of the intelligence agencies
...and let those three million people out of jail (and let real criminals take their place)
...and do something about this corrupt-as-hell-cynical-beyond-redemption political "system"
...and guarantee everybody a job, health-care, security in old age and disability, food, shelter

...and send all yuppies to "re-education" - perhaps as welders.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. I'll kick up that post
and second the sentiments.

That should be an OP. Mebbe wait 'til the stimulus frenzy wears itself out and reality sets in.

Solidarity bro'
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #155
159. And to you...

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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #154
165. Hmmm....

Sounds like a plan.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #154
172. Sure does sound like a plan...
"...and let those three million people out of jail (and let real criminals take their place)
...and do something about this corrupt-as-hell-cynical-beyond-redemption political "system""

Hey did you notice how handy emptying the prisons of the three million would be when considering what to do about the corrupt as hell political "system"?

"...and guarantee everybody a job, health-care, security in old age and disability, food, shelter"

Sounds like basic human rights to me...

"...and send all yuppies to "re-education" - perhaps as welders."

I was a welder before I was an educator, guess I could always return with your plan... (good job! before it was a victim of Reagan's union busting...)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #154
174. but, but, but
We are all "yuppies" here, or trying to be and hoping to be, and protecting and advancing our needs and desires is the whole purpose of liberalism and the Democratic party. People who make "bad choices" - like welding, yuck - are not our worry.

If we nationalize that stuff, then how can we get ahead and be "winners?" Under your system, just any old person could prosper, and then how could we feel superior and look down on people?

Besides, we have spent our entire lives figuring this system out, and defending it and apologizing for it, and now you are suggesting chucking it? Are you trying to say that our entire lives have been a waste? Look at my credentials, my degrees, and then try to tell me that I am not superior to 90% of the people out there. It isn't my fault that they are not clever the way that I am. Hey they made their choices, now they are suffering the consequences, and that is just the way life works.

Any system that rewards me, and the 10% or so of the population who are like me, and that gives me privilege and status and comfort must by definition be good, right? Besides, every other system has been tried.

The cream rises to the top, and we "progressives" are some of the creamiest people ever in history. Isn't it obvious how wonderful we are?

Those people in jail, without jobs, who can't afford the doctor, who made the stupid choice to get old - well, there is always going to be some collateral damage, and those people have no one to blame but themselves.


But these ideas of yours, as idealistic and romantic as they may sound - "to the barricades comrades!!" lol, what a joke - are never going to go anywhere. Why? Well, because people like me are going to fight to the death to make sure that no one even considers them, that is why.

We have heard all of this stuff before, and it always fails and never goes anywhere. For example, there were the Abolitionists. So angry. Such perfectionists. Nothing ever made them happy. All they did is moan and piss and whine and complain. They insisted that every slave should be free and wouldn't compromise. They just took angry extremist positions, and made the perfect the enemy of the good. And where did that get us?

The there were the labor organizers. They were off their rockers. Such shit disturbers. Sure, it sounded like a good idea and lots of low-information voters fell for their rhetoric, but where did they ever get with that? Losers. They just appealed to people's envy. The workers didn't like it that other people had more than they did, but they were no different than the owners - they wanted more too! Who doesn't? So get off your ass and go out and start your own business if you want more. Doh.

Then there were all of those unrealistic idealistic ideas - universal public education, Whew! Talk about utopian dreamers. Yeah, yeah, I have heard it all before - "every child will have an equal chance." Sounds wonderful, just like all of their crazy ideas. But nice ideas and reality are two different things, aren't they? I think I will love in reality and not in your dream world, thanks.

And then universal retirement benefits - oh yeah those loony leftists pushed that idea. Everyone would get a check every month after a certain age - for doing nothing! What kind of sense does that make? Fortunately that crazy idea went nowhere. Obviously, people need to make the right choices and invest and save for their retirement. Otherwise, hey, they lose. That is the way of the world and you can't change it. Don't get me wrong, I am not a monster and I feel sorry for those elderly people living out in the street. Life is hard.

Then, remember all of those ideas about "protecting public health?" The fanatics were proposing some sort of draconian regime where there would be inspections of food and water to make sure they were "safe." I work hard to be able to afford my organic produce and make other good choices about my personal life. Why can't others do the same? Too stupid? Too lazy? It is not my fault that I was born smarter than others. Why should I be punished for that? Why should just anyone get the better food and water, as though we owed that to them or something? Thankfully, that whole idea went nowhere.

Then there were the "child labor" hand wringers. Oh boo hoo, kids were working in factories. The activists whined and bitched and tried to play on people's sympathies. They love to complain, and are not happy unless they can find something to complain about. "Poor little kids." If the lazy worthless parents would provide for their kid, we would never have the problem. Arresting and jailing the parents is the obvious solution to that. Why should we be rewarding people's bad choices? That crazy idea of outlawing child labor failed miserably. Sorry purists - you lose again!

On and on and on, the dreamers and impractical idealists have tried to foist their goofy ideas on us, and again and again they have failed. They are nothing but losers, and I am sticking with the winners.
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #174
179. That is TOO close...

I wonder what sarcasm that is too near to reality should be called?

Rarcasm?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. closecasm
We should closecasm everything here - you know, for the logic impaired.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
88. We're One Of The Greatest Nations In The World.
And no, I'm not going to remind you of why, because it's so obvious that your negative blinders are on so tightly that you couldn't possibly begin to appreciate the positives. It would be an utterly complete waste of my time.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. dude, your entire life, at least as expressed here,
is a complete waste of your time.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. My Life Is Quite Good, Actually.
But then, I don't focus all of my energy into searching for anything and everything negative I possibly can; just so I can be miserable and bitter while dramatically and irrationally complaining about everything under the sun. :hi:
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #93
103. life is good!
:hi:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #93
161. sure you do
Edited on Sat Feb-07-09 04:00 AM by Two Americas
You do in fact spend your time and focus your energy on searching for anything and everything negative you possibly can, just so you can be miserable and bitter while dramatically and irrationally complaining about everything under the sun, more so than almost anyone here.

You just complain about different things then others do here. But you are probably the most negative and complaining person we have. You are negative toward and complain about your friends and allies, your working class brothers and sisters, and defend the privileged and the powerful. We complain about the wealthy and powerful few, and defend each other. That is the difference.

It is easy to portray yourself as "positive," when you identify with, emulate, defend and admire the bullies and exploiters, and beat up on the weak and defenseless. That isn't "positive" - it is siding with privilege and power and being arrogant and condescending.

You are consistently angry, miserable and dramatic, and almost all of your posts are negative and are complaints.



...
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #161
163. I agree. n/t
Edited on Sat Feb-07-09 04:15 AM by U4ikLefty
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #91
142. How could you be so mean to a dog? I guess you don't like blue ones
:)
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. The only greatness the US has are it's armed forces.

Without our ability to deal out death and mayhem worldwide at a whim we wouldn't be jack. Some greatness..........

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Blind Indeed.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #92
106. Really? Is that why so many millions of people want to come here to make a better life
for themselves and their families? Huh.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. Yes, millions of Canadians, Germans, Brits are flooding our borders
:eyes:
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. I didn't claim that they were. Do you deny that tens of millions of people from around the world
do want to come here to improve their lot in life? I'm not saying that Britons are crossing the Atlantic in liferafts to get to Ellis Island, but there are a hell of a lot of people around the world that make enormous sacrifices to bring their families to the U.S. Why is that?

And, fyi, as clever as an animated smiley-face is, it doesn't really make your point for you.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. You're arguing America is "great" by implying everyone wants to come here
I merely reminded you that other countries might be "greater."

I agree the smiley faces here are pretty clever.

:crazy:
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. I didn't say "everyone wants to come here." I said that tens of millions
of people around the world do want to come here, and often make great sacrifices to do so. If you disagree with that statement, go ahead and tell me why.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. If they wait long enough, no doubt the US will bring democracy to them
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. That's a cop-out response, and a cheap way to blow up the discussion.
If you can't respond to my statement, you could have just said so.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #122
149. Nice pun!
Heh, heh "blow up the discussion"

:thumbsup:
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #112
166. so as long as our TV shows make America look slightly better than the worst place on earth
you'll be bragging about how great we are?
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. Minimum wage as opposed to no work hardly makes for great.-

ness.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. The hell it doesn't.
Just ask someone in majority of sub-saharan Africa.

We've got problems that need fixing, there is no doubt, but if you can name first world nation on earth that doesn't also suffer from our problems and has a greater potential for fixing them, please name it.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #92
133. Even without a military, I bet I'd still be able to get a gallon of ice cream, some whipped cream,
some fudge topping, and nuts, 24/7.

Not to mention anything else I might need. The ice cream sundae is paramount for me though. That's what makes this country so great...
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #133
137. That ice cream was churned on the backs of wage-slaves that are no better off
than slaves were 200 years ago.

Besides, the ice cream in France is so much better than the U.S. that you should be embarrassed that you even *like* American ice cream. Seriously, in France, the ice cream never gets freezer burn, it isn't segregated by race or flavor, and the people that make it live in a workers' paradise that would make Eugene Debs slightly sexually aroused.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #137
151. Yes but is it a product of Happy Cows like the sort we have here in California? n/t
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 06:45 PM by cherokeeprogressive
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
95. Although it's all relative and subjective...
"how is this really any different from, say, England in the 1300's..."


I notice we don't have a high density of children with distended bellies. We're in the top quartile of literacy and health care. 75% of High School students receive their diplomas. We have a working (though dated and in need of repair) national and state infrastructure. Unemployment is under 10%. In general, a person may freely travel from one coast to the other w/o stopping every five or ten minutes to "show papers".

For every one "poor" thing a person can mention, a concomitant "great" thing could swiftly counter it. "Great" is relative, subjective, and specific to particulars.

Although I'm aware of many things that could be improved, I'm also aware of many things that are efficient, effective and appreciated if we merely apply our focus and our perspectives to both sides of the coin rather than simply one.

I imagine though, that people will already presume an answer based only on the specific evidences that better validates their own individual moods, predilections and biases.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
96. the IDEA of America is great . . . but we have a ways to go to fully achieve that greatness . . n/t
.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #96
167. in the words of Frederick Douglass,
"Your fathers have lived, died, and have done their work, and have done much of it well. You live and must die, and you must do your work. You have no right to enjoy a child's share in the labor of your fathers, unless your children are to be blest by your labors. You have no right to wear out and waste the hard-earned fame of your fathers to cover your indolence."

We must *perfect* these ideals.



"What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sound of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants brass fronted impudence; your shout of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanks-givings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour."
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Cardiff Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
97. Because we can correct ourselves. We elected OBAMA.
When England elects an Indian-Englishman for Prime Minister or Canada elects an Athabaskan Prime minister, then come back and tell me how bad America is.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. That a Black American got elected president is a great thing.

That he is just another tool of the rich, not so great, but he'd never would have had a chance to play in the big leagues if that wasn't the case.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
105. Nonsense. If you can't (or won't) see the progress that has been made, you aren't being honest.
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 03:48 PM by Raskolnik
If you really think that we aren't all that different from the Soviet Union circa 1965, I'm not sure you've made much of an effort to educate yourself about the present or the past.
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
107. Because we have the eternal desire to improve ourselves
We want our country to be better. WE are not willing to resort to violent means to achieve a political end. Our government has failed us many times, but we do not have the moral imperative to toss it aside and start from scratch. Our country is a great country, because we were founded on the belief that "all men are created equal". While we are still a little way from fully realizing that declaration, we are getting closer and closer each day. Lastly, we live in a civil society in which we have the freedom to voice our opinion without fear of retribution. The MSM is exercising their right to freedom of speech, and here on DU, so are we.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
117. It's been a race to the bottom for years-all so the greedy rich bastards can profit forever
on our misery.

Yep-the class war is alive and well and the words "hope and change" were nothing more than a slick advertising campaign to get the peons to believe that the rich & powerful actually gave a damn about them.

Talk about being punk'd. :puke:
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. Yet you have an Al Gore icon.
That is some cognitive dissonance, I believe.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #120
128. Gore would have made a helluva better president than Obama I have no doubt.
That's he's rich, so fucking what?

At least Gore is doing something positive for the planet which is more than I can say for the rich bastards on Wall Street.


So take your bullshit and shove it.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. No need to be quite so unpleasant.
I was merely pointing out the irony about railing against the rich and powerful and dismissing the notion that they actually might give a damn about the "peons" while sporting an Al Gore icon.

So take your bullshit and shove it.

Have a great weekend!
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #131
138. Only freepers hate Gore.
Just saying. :hi:
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. Who the hell said anything about hating Al Gore? You're the one railing against the rich
and powerful, of which Al Gore is undoubtedly one.

I like him quite a bit, even though there is a bit of historical revisionism that has taken place to create an idealized "liberal" Al Gore that never really existed.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #140
144. Why does it matter to you if Gore is rich?
I never even think about Gore being rich when I think of him because he has put the Earth first.

He launched a 300 Million advertising campaign against global warming with his own money. And I haven't seen other rich bastards on Wall Street do anything like it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/31/algore.usel...

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. Oy--it doesn't matter to me at all--YOU are the one that brought up "the rich and powerful"
as the enemy. Do you understand that I'm not actually attacking Al Gore by pointing out that he doesn't fit your paradigm? I'm just highlighting a point of irony within your post.

Again, I'm not attacking Al Gore. I understand that you respect his actions, and I am not trying to disabuse you of that respect.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. What's the point of saying anything to me in the first place?
Isn't it obvious that with a user name of earth mom that I would be a Gore supporter?

Also-Why do you care what I have to say about "most" of the rich and powerful?

Why are you defending them?

Most (but not all) of the rich and powerful are nothing more than vile blood sucking creatures who should be stopped asap.

They have been protected and insulated for far too long and it's past time for the people to go "french" on their asses and take this country back.








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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #147
153. I'm starting to wonder. n/t
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #153
158. Buh Bye!
:eyes:
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
127. I have lived here my whole life and I'm still trying to figure out what makes this country so great.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
143. Because it's the bestest ever country ever in the whole wide world...
love,
Jingo
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #143
146. I'm glad most of you love your country.
There's lots to love about it. And reading through most of you sound like decent well-intentioned people. Not bad to have next door. Guess we all find things to appreciate about our countries. Enjoy!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
150. Because we say so.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
156. Maybe america is not so great .
If you look back on how this country began and what we have done to other countries all these years and we as the people either knew it and ignored it or felt entitled to it who know's.

We call our president the most powerful person in the world and this sounds arrogent to an extreme and only is this way because we have the nuclear power to destroy anyone else and we hide behind this as power.

Maybe we got just what we deserve for what we as people have allowed to be done.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
157.  Well, I'm here...thats gotta count for something
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
164. WHY (?) ... President Barack Obama
who brings real hope.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
173. "How is this all that different from, say, the Soviet Union" - BWAHAHAHAAH!!!!!
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
175. You seem like a glass half empty kind of person.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #175
184. *half* empty!?
fucking glass is in shattered pieces on the floor!
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Brgotn Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
182. I'm sorry but this post is entirely too negative.


I have traveled to numerous countries, both first and third world. All of us should be grateful that we live the the US. We have so many opportunities here that most people could only dream of. For one we have the BEST health care anywhere. In many of the countries I have been to if health care was available you had to pay up front or forget it. Here if you are having a heart attack you get the same treatment no matter what your financial status is. In many other countries if you don't have the cash you die. In some places they don't release the mother and child after birth until the bill is paid!


In the great depression there was no food at all! There was no food on the shelves and people were starving. That is not happening!

Stop the whining and be grateful for what we have.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #182
185. the beatings will continue until morale improves!
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
183. because of our large middle class
as for the soviet union would you want to live in a country that killed 20 million people under Stalin? why compare 1300's england to 21st century industrialization?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #183
187. rights, quality of life in all respects not technological
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
186. cause we pump the Greatest amount of pollutants into the atmosphere
It's true look it up :bounce: we're the greatest
This is often followed by "but we also have the greatest potential for change and innovation!" :headbang: which could also be true, just not as easy to prove!
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