From $80,000 a year to eviction: Hard times in America

[Liberal_in_LA]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/01/28/jobloss.hard.times/index.html

From $80,000 a year to eviction: Hard times in America

By Wayne Drash
CNN.com Senior Producer


(CNN) -- Amber Easton has gone from $80,000 a year in salary to scrambling for work. At a time in her life when she should be scaling the corporate ladder, she has instead spiraled into a deep depression. She recently lost her car and now faces eviction from her apartment.

"I never imagined ... that I would be in such a situation at my age," said Amber Easton, 35.

Just last week, the 35-year-old longtime working professional attended two job fairs with friends in the Detroit area. They stood in line for over three hours with hundreds of professionals of all types.

"It was a real eye-opener to see the caliber of people we were in line with -- very educated with vast skill sets," Easton said in an e-mail. "Afterwards, we went to the restaurant located in the same hotel and it was filled with unemployed professionals sharing their story, from engineers to graphic designers to marketing professionals."

Easton's saga began in July 2007 when she traded in her job as a corporate compliance officer to attend law school, what she thought would help advance her career. But after a year of law school, she decided it wasn't for her. By then, her old job was gone and the job market had shrunk.

"It's hard not to be depressed during a time like this," she wrote iReport.com. "I never imagined in a million years that I would be in such a situation at my age and at this point in my career. I am humiliated. I am praying for everyone else out there is who are facing the same problems."

She has applied to 70 different companies but gotten few leads. She recently went through a rigorous interview process for one job in another state, but to no avail. Share your economic survivor story

Every day, she searches for new job possibilities and every day results in more desperation. She estimates she's making $20,000 -- "if that" -- as a contract employee working from her home. "I just haven't made enough to keep up."

[Lance_Boyle]

1. beauty school dropout, go back to high school

law school dropout, don't expect to get picked back up at the job you left to discover you didn't really want to go to law school, after all. :eyes:

[Liberal_in_LA]

10. Dang! This is the tough love crowd!

[Yes We Did]

75. How Fucking Rude.

I hope you should never have to deal with what she is.

[WilliamPitt]

82. I make in my pants sometimes.

[Lance_Boyle]

85. that would be the only productive thing you do, Pitt.

[Missy Vixen]

86. LMAO, Will

It's nice to see the "compassion" that passes for progressives here, isn't it?

Julie

[SmileyRose]

143. IMHO

compassion and sympathy are not the same thing.

compassion and empathy are closer.

Just MHO.

[Forkboy]

136. shitheel

[LanternWaste]

159. You're absolutely right....

You're absolutely right. No one should ever have aspirations to better themselves and their careers-- it sets a bad precedent... :eyes:

[taught_me_patience]

2. Sad

There are many talented white collar workers who cannot find work. She ought to consider going back to school for an mba.

[Warpy]

16. Unless she's a scion of great wealth

and can afford one of the A-list schools, forget that. MBAs are a dime a dozen, too, unless there is a gilt diploma backed up by powerful family friends.

Face it, there is no way more education is going to get her out of this fix. Only shedding her sense of entitlement to the good life and moving to cheaper digs and settling for a McJob in the short term will allow her to get through this one. Otherwise, she's facing moving back with Mom and Dad---or worse.

Unfortunately, a high income usually meant equally high debts for most young professionals. If that is the case here, she's really sunk.

Pushing retraining has always been the standard answer, blaming economic victims for their plight. It's just not going to work at all this time, even as in the past retraining has meant graduating with the next set of job skills to be offshored. We've heard that song and dance before and we know it's all a lie.

[T Wolf]

24. An MBA!?! Just what we need, more manipulative middle-men who produce nothing

except schemes and cons.

Too much of our national talent is devoted to manipulating the economy for personal gain while producing nothing real. A Ponzi scheme sucks it all out at the top. These MBAs create schemes that suck the money out throughout the system.

The further the economy gets away from producing a real product, the worse things are going to get.

[KurtNYC]

73. lack of solid business management is part of the problem we face

I think you are confusing MBAs with wall street traders and the equities traders who built the houseof cards that is now collapsing.

[T Wolf]

97. No. I group them all as leeches who create artificial mechanisms to maximize the wealth

that remains with those already rich.

It is more complex than the simplistic idea that an MBA will know better how to run the corner deli. Ma and Pa can do just fine, except when the financial charlatans and professional "managers" create and manipulate the entire economic system.

Again - for me it comes down to middle men jobbing the system to steal money from workers or consumers. The more layers of management (and dollar siphoning) there are, the more the producer and consumer get ripped off. Now, there do need to be some actors in between the farmer and your dinner table, for instance. But I see a major problem when EVERYTHING is part of a larger, more impersonal inhuman entity (corporation). Things have already gone so far that more energy, capital, and brainpower is spent creating scams and schemes than actual, usable products. And we all suffer.

[taught_me_patience]

131. You have a sick and twisted view of MBAs

and it's pretty wrong. Many MBA's help create efficiency in business and help to bring a better, cheaper product to the consumer. Many MBAs run small businesses. It's nearly impossible to lump MBAs into a specific category. Pursuing an MBA would be beneficial to the woman in this article because

1) She would become more productive
2) It would increase her marketability in a couple of years
3) She could obtain student loans in order to pay for school and life
4) It would fill the gap in her unemployment

[Raineyb]

148. MBAs have to be the most useless folks on the planet

The one who used to call himself the decider comes to mind.

A former coworker was going for her MBA online and when I looked over her shoulder to see what the classes were about I was appalled. It looks more like they teach people to manage politics but not so much actual businesses.

That would explain the sorry state of American business now that I really think about it.

Regards

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. There Are Much Better Stories Of More Deserving People To Share Than This One.

She had an 80 grand a year job that she quit in order to try and get schooling to attempt to get a job making even more. She takes a huge risk but then drops out because she didn't like her choice, only to find her job gone. Well tough shit. That's life. Next time maybe be thankful that you have an 80g a year job at 33.

[cottonseed]

100. What if she turns to a life of crime and stabs someone in the neck?

I mean, can't we have a little empathy here? And aren't progressives supposed to hope for the best for each and every person? And not squatting over and taking a shit on someone who doesn't have a job?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

106. There Are Many Things I've Learned On DU.

One of them is to never take anyone seriously who uses 'progressives' as a broad brush basis for their argument. :hi:

[cottonseed]

108. Oh, I get it. You're just being annoying.

Have a good day. :applause:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

110. Nope. Just Calling Out Your Simplistic And Broad Brush Argument.

Could see why being called on it would be annoying to you though. :hi:

[cottonseed]

114. It wasn't really an argument. I was just wondering why you hated that woman so much.

And replied to your post. That's all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

119. Yes! Yes! I Hate Her! I HATE HER!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:dunce:

[LanternWaste]

160. Or that it's fine and dandy...

"There Are Many Things I've Learned On DU...."

Or that it's fine and dandy to disparage people for being uppity by trying to better their careers and empower themselves...

[LSparkle]

121. Exactly ... I'm 50 and still hoping to someday make that much ... n/t

[Avalux]

4. She didn't lose her job - she gave it up for school. Big Difference.

She decided law school wasn't for her and now the jobs aren't there. And an observation - how could she and the other unemployed professionals afford the hotel restaurant? Having a hard time feeling sorry for her.

[LynzM]

7. I had the same thought, ss...

What's she doing eating out if she's barely scraping by and making 20k?

[Liberal_in_LA]

69. People who make 20K eat out periodically. They got to the movies, they

visit museums. Surely we don't deny a treat to the low paid?

[philk17088]

91. But

she was being evicted. You DO NOT GO OUT if you are that poor!

[Liberal_in_LA]

98. If being evicted, electricity maybe turned off, stuff boxed up, have to eat out.

[knitter4democracy]

122. Did you see where they were? Detroit.

Michigan's got the lowest employment rate in the country. And they didn't say they were eating anything, just meeting there.

I've never seen it this bad in Michigan. People are leaving the state in droves, only I've been hearing stories of people who've moved only to not find anything in Florida or California either and then being stuck there.

[bunnies]

5. WAHHHHHH! WAHHHHHHH!

Screw you, lady. I actually LOST a 65k a year job and now make 10 bucks an hour. Screw YOU and your fucking pity party.

[DS1]

13. Oh yeah? Well FUCK YOU WHINER

I went from 90K to 10 bucks an hour at one time in my life too, but I didn't slag on people in the same boat.

[bunnies]

17. Oh please. I didnt give my job up voluntarily.

Did YOU?

I'm sure as hell not in that boat.

[DS1]

22. Are people supposed to never try anything new if they don't like their current

fields?

I left my job in early 2001 because it had turned into a shit place to work. I found myself in a rapidly shrinking job market, and ended up working at a CVS waiting for college to start up (at 27) so I could live mostly off the GI Bill money I'd earned.

CNN interviewed her, so of course she said "Yes, the job market sucks"

[Missy Vixen]

28. According to DU, no

They're supposed to be happy with whatever they can find. Period. After all, the Keyboard Kommandos will live your life for you.

It is astonishing to me to read this place; frankly, I'm thankful I don't deal with the vast majority IRL.

Julie

[varkam]

41. And god help you if you make a mistake.

DUers will, apparently, be the first ones to kick you when you're down.

[Missy Vixen]

44. Nobody here has ever made a mistake!

It must be great for them to sit behind their keyboards and laugh at the rest of us!

Seriously -- I can't imagine dealing with a lot of these IRL.

Julie

[varkam]

50. Well we all know that sitting behind a computer screen makes you big and tough and bad.

It also grants you omniscience and moral clarity.

[Missy Vixen]

79. I love being an oracle. ;-)

>It also grants you omniscience and moral clarity.

You know, it's really easy to NOT make a mistake when you never get up out of your computer chair! :woohoo:

In the meantime, I find myself wondering more frequently why any of us bother; I am astonished at the sheer lack of compassion I see here on an hourly basis.

Julie

[madinmaryland]

90. I see this happening alot to teh "keyboard commandos"...

[hfojvt]

83. Perhaps most of the people reading the story

would be ecstatic if they made $80,000 a year. Myself, I am 46 have 8 years of university education and two degrees and the most I have made is $24,120 for janitorial work. So the fact that she once made 80K and was greedy for more and has now fallen to a 'mere' 20K. Sorry, but cue the violins :nopity:

[Xithras]

107. Money is NOT everything

I once quit a $114k a year job, after only TWO MONTHS, because the 2 hour commute (each way) was a killer, and my boss was a frigging prick who thought that 14 hour workdays were "just fine" and that people who tried to take more than one day off in a row were slackers who didn't deserve their jobs. Whenever he thought that any one of us weren't working hard enough, he'd come up and threaten to send our job to China if we didn't pick up the pace.

One day he threw that threat at me for the umpteenth time and just spun around, looked him in the eye, and said, "Yeah, good luck with that." I grabbed my crap, walked out, and never set foot in the building again.

Money is nice, but being a highly paid employee in a shite work environment isn't any more fun than being a lowly paid employee in a shite work environment. I won't ever blame anyone who walks away from a crappy job in the hopes of doing something that will make them happier. I also won't diss them if they fail. At least they had the guts to try, unlike most wage-slaves in this country.

[hfojvt]

128. nothing in the article says she was unhappy with her old job

only that she wanted to "advance" in her career, which typically means more money, more power/responsibilities. Yeah, and I walked away from a potential $30 an hour job in 1987, whatever a GS-12 makes now. So my experience tells me it's very stupid to jump out of a high-flying plane without being very sure of your parachute.

[ProfessorGAC]

158. Your Point Is Well Taken

But, i don't get why this woman quit her job to go a law school. I know it's really hard, but three people i know graduated while maintaining the full-jobs. Now two of them took a leave of absence to prepare for the bar exam, but it just shows it could be done.

Sure, it takes a long time that way, but if one decides that it isn't for them after a few classes, at least one would still have the good paying job.

I think she didn't think the decision all the way through.
GAC

[bunnies]

54. Of course not...

but having a plan is the minimum of what one should do. It seems that she was getting by just fine while in law school... no? She had a plan to get by during years at school but cant seem to make it all the sudden?

[varkam]

56. Maybe she flunked out. Maybe she didn't like the stress or the fast pace.

Who knows - at the end of the day, though, she took a risk to try to better herself and it fell through.

[bunnies]

61. That doesnt change the fact that...

she was just fine financially while going to school and now its all "I'm broke". Maybe she quit the job she had while she was at school too... if she had one. :shrug:

[varkam]

63. You normally don't get student loans if you drop out of school.

And, normally, that's how us students live. My school will not allow us to work while we're attending, so the student loans is all that we've got.

[bunnies]

76. They pay your rent?

Food? Stuff like that? :shrug:

If thats the case, and especially if thats the case, she shouldnt have dropped out without something lined up. I mean... lets use some common sense here.

She gave up 80k a year for school - then gave up school for nothing? It just doesnt seem logical to me.

[varkam]

112. Like I said - maybe she flunked out.

It's kinda hard to stay in school when they won't let you come back.

[hfojvt]

80. most people probably don't like the $30,000 a year job they have

so it's kinda hard to feel sorry for somebody who once had an $80,000 a year job. Whenever I notice that my current job sucks, I try to remember that I have worked harder and for much less money.

[deek]

146. wow

I've got 3 degrees and never made 1/3 of that. Never had any bennies, either. Oh wait. My first employer told me my benefits were unemployment and social security. Amusing...my SSA statement shows he never even paid them what he took out of my measly salary!! Making $9.25 now and that's in jeopardy of being downgraded to $8/hr. Yay.

[liberal renegade]

71. well

if it gets any worse for you, you can at least eat your bunnies.... maybe we can all eat your bunnies......

[DS1]

77. Pets or Food

:)

[bunnies]

78. heh

bunnies is a nickname a buddy gave me years ago. Care to re-word? :rofl:

[cottonseed]

101. Nothing

Worth Name Calling For

And you think you've got it bad? Until you drink from the same water you shit in then you've got it pretty damn good. Too bad the truly poor in 3rd world countries don't have internet connections -- they'd be telling you to go shit in your hat too.

[peacetalksforall]

6. Obviously, there are some hot shot Libertarians on DU today.

There are all kinds of stories.

What's wrong with sayint - I never thought. Isn't everyone saying that. I don't see her asking for pity.

[bunnies]

14. Shes an idiot.

What would you think if I ripped up a hundred dollar bill then wrote an article about how I have no cash and how tough my life is as a result of it. :eyes:

[peacetalksforall]

31. She didn't write the article. Her main message is "I never thought...". The lesson

we get from all our superiors when we grow up is push yourself - education, hard work. She thought she would advance herself. EVERYONE is saying - "I never thought". Our dreams, plans, careers were stolen from us. One of the worst - is yanking all those Natl Guard people out of their jobs instead of owning up to a draft that would expose the true intentions of the invaion and occupation.

Our parents and teachers fill us with promises and make us dream and live up to their expectations for us. And when we do and are shot down - we deserve to be able to say - I never thought.

[hfojvt]

87. there are people kind of astonished that somebody GAVE away

an 80K job. She didn't get knocked off the gravy train. She jumped off because she wanted even more gravy. She got hoist by her own petard and the schadenfreude for that is one of the simple pleasures of life.

[peacetalksforall]

137. I say she wanted to advance. There is nothing greedy about that. A

person sets challenges for themselves. They make decisions about where they want to go. All she is saying is that 'she never thought' that things would change like this and I say that everyday.

[kestrel91316]

8. Amber needs to spend some time (now that she has a lot of free

time on her spoiled hands) reading Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover and listening to his radio show. If you ignore the tithing stuff and Christian angle, it's very savvy advice for getting out and staying out of financial trouble.

And she needs to buy a beater and get a P/T job delivering pizzas or cleaning houses(those of you who are familiar with DR will recognize this part, lol) in addition to her work at home. And start listing everything but the kids on eBay.

[Liberal_in_LA]

11. I listen to Ramsey streaming online. Yeah, if you ignore the Rightwing crap he's pretty good.

[kestrel91316]

20. How much you wanna bet Miss Amber had herself a really nice

expensive car "fleece"????? And a ton of FREAKIN' CREDIT CARD DEBT!! (channeling DR here...)

I love listening to his show. The stupid people that call in sometimes, in debt up to their eyeballs, dead broke, underearning, and wanting to take an expensive vacation (on borrowed money), wanting him to say "okay, you go do that" - just crack me up. I listen so that I don't slip back into bad financial habits myself (though I was never THAT bad, lol......).

[supernova]

26. Clark Howard is very good

and he's not christian centered.

[tammywammy]

27. I listen to him too!

It's good advice. :)

[Missy Vixen]

84. Here. I'll speak slowly.

Does it occur to you that the jobs of "delivering pizza" and "cleaning houses" are OVER? Where exactly is she getting one of those highly coveted jobs? Those who had the disposable income to do such things as have a pizza delivered or get their house cleaned have stripped them out of the budget a LONG time ago. Millions are watching every expenditure now, because they CAN'T AFFORD "frills" like pizza delivery!

Fast food jobs are being taken by adults who are trying to stay in their houses. She's "spoiled" because she used to make $80K a year, left her job to get additional education to improve herself, and now is unable to find another job that actually covers the bills? How much do YOU make a year? Does it occur to you that those who were doing well financially stimulate the economy in their communities, and now that cash is gone? I guess that's okay, though. She's "spoiled" and needs to be taught a lesson. How will you feel to be taught the same lesson? Perhaps those who are sitting back and feeling smug right now had better consider the fact that it will be YOU as well.

People here bitch about the Republicans and "class warfare", but I've never seen so much "class warfare" in my life as supposed "progressives" that don't think they're getting their "fair share". It's too bad that you can't see that those who formerly made a good living (and now, don't,) are affecting ALL OF US.

Wake the fuck up.
Julie

[Hannah Bell]

109. saavy? get a cheap car, deliver pizzas & sell stuff on ebay?

anyone who lives in the real world already knows that kind of thing.

problem is, if the economy's tanking, it won't be saved by pizza delivery.

[firedupdem]

9. She quit her job. No story here. How about losing your 80K

dollar a year job and facing eviction etc? Been there, done that.

[valerief]

12. Yeah, just what this country needs. More frickin' lawyers. Especially those

who decide they don't wanna be lawyers.

No sympathy from me.

[varkam]

38. Yeah, cause it's not like lawyers actually help anybody. eom

[fizzgig]

15. my response to amber

:nopity:

she left her job, she didn't lose it. i lost my job 11 months ago and made *maybe* $16,000 last year, about half what i made the year before. i can't find a real job for love nor money and am now making $8 an hour at a menial job i hate just to try to stretch the unemployment out a bit longer.

and you want to know what else? i made a budget and am still able to pay my bills.

[ozu]

18. dropping out of law school was probably a prudent decision

Unless you're in a tier 1 school, your prospects once you graduate are likely to be 150k in grad school debt and a 40k salary.

[valerief]

19. If only all the workers who've lost their jobs did so because they CHOSE to lose them.

What a waste of oxygen this tard is.

[DS1]

25. Instead, everyone should toil the rest of their lives doing something they hate

How's your job, tard?

[valerief]

154. Shaky, moron. nt

This is in response to DS1's post #25 which reads:

<<Instead, everyone should toil the rest of their lives doing something they hate

How's your job, tard?>>

[valerief]

155. You'll want to attack this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4939124
and this one, too
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8152281

[KamaAina]

123. Most people with intellectual disabilities don't have any job at all

their unemployment rate is something like 70 percent. Even before this. :scared:

Oh yes, many of them also view the word "tard" or "retard" as an offensive slur akin to the N-word.

http://www.r-word.org

Not exactly what I'm expecting to read here a t "progressive" DU.

[SmileyRose]

144. It's the oddest thing

I'm closer to 60 than 50 and in all my life I've never once heard anyone with developmental or intellectual challenges called a tard or retard. Not once. Oh I'm sure there is the rare bully, but almost always when someone says tard or retard or that's retarded it refers to someone who is well educated who does or says "stupid" things. Or it may be a idea or situation that makes no logical or pragmatic sense.

I was stunned when the mom of a kid with Down Syndrome told me saying "that's just retarded" when they changed the name of "french fries" to "freedom fries" was a personal slam against her son. I'll be honest, I have no idea what her son had to do with "freedom fries", but if Mom feels her son is in any way associated with "retarded" I can see how calling ShitAssInc retarded would give other retarded folks a bad name (I keed I keed) -- at any rate, I'm attempting to rid myself of that word but old habits die hard, especially when I nor anyone I've ever known would ever dream of using that word to describe the actual disabled. Especially considering the one's I know are often the smartest ones in the room in their own way.

[valerief]

153. Yeah, and you can use the word moron or idiot ad nauseum and nary will you find

a peep from these "concern" police.

Thanks.

[valerief]

152. Do you go after people who use the word moron, too?

[valerief]

156. You'll want to attack this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4939124
and this one, too
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8152281

[sohndrsmith]

21. I can't be too harsh on people who have made mistakes.

I've made mistakes too. It is very, very hard to try to build back up after losing most, if not everything - either because of bad things happening or bad decisions or both... the more we make people feel like losers because they have fallen, the harder it is, because it hurts.

Any of us could be in a similar situation before we know it - even if we believe we're doing everything right.

It is different for everyone. But it is very hard to get back up - even with moral support. Doesn't matter if she goofed up or made the wrong choice - making it her "fault". She knows that. She likely would have done things differently had she expected this outcome. I don't see what good it does to make her feel worse..

But that's just my view... : )

[varkam]

36. Apparently there are plenty of people right here in this thread who have never, ever, ever...

...made a mistake.

I sure wish I were them.

[sohndrsmith]

55. As hard as "hardship" is, as lousy as my situation - how bleak my future

I have gained something from losing everything that I could not have gained if I'd never gone through it. And I'm grateful for what this has taught me and the perspective that has made me a better, less judgmental person, and if I ever do regain my footing its something I'll never lose.

Don't get me wrong - I'd really, really, really like to figure out a solution so that I could make things even a little better (and I'm not stupid - so it's annoying), and I wish I could make more progress - any progress, but I don't wish to ever be oblivious to what this is like because I think it will only serve to make me help someone else more if I'm ever on the more fortunate end of my life circumstances cause I've been there.

It really is different to live it rather that hypothesize, so I can't fault those who don't get it either. Well I can, but none of us will get anywhere... : )

[varkam]

62. +1

[northernlights]

23. you have got to be kidding!

I know very few 35 year olds worth $80K/year. And how can she be a "longtime working professional" at that age? Did she start working as a professional when she was, say, 10?

Try being 50 years old, at the peak of your career, laid off post-911, no work in your field for the next couple years, you're now competing with your former VP for freelance work, by the time the job market starts to open up a tiny bit, your resume/portfolio are way out of date, you've moved to a less expensive state to consolidate and cut your living expenses.

You finally get a $10/hour job, where you are poisoned, harrassed in your home and your animals assaulted...all courtesy of your rightwing Kristian Konservative employer. So you quit for the sake of your health and safety.

And now you're 55, your retirement fund is about out of money, you started a health care program at your local university a year ago, but the "advisor" gave you some incredibly *wrong* advice (i.e. lied by omission) and now it's going to take 1 year longer to get through the program than you expected or planned for. And it's going to cost nearly 3 times what you expected and planned for, based on going over coursework with the "advisor" (read: sales liar).

So now you have to sell your home in *this* market. Or take on debt that you'll be paying until you die.

Oh, and you're a 4.0 average in pre-med sciences and math, but getting passed over for younger, 2.5 average students with immediate family members who work in the local hospitals.

I'll be perfectly honest here. I wouldn't want health care delivered by the caliber students that they're taking into the program. It's just not the place for nepotism to rule. :eyes:

[DS1]

33. I'm sorry that she didn't call CNN and have them interview you, instead

That's the only thing this person did wrong. :eyes:

[northernlights]

66. actually, that was the interviewer's mistake

I would make a fabulous interview. Seriously. The stories I could tell...

What the subject of this interview did wrong was expect sympathy for what is really not that horrible a situation. And at 35 she is very young...she has plenty of time to come back. And what the hell was she spending her discretionary income on? At $80K/year she couldn't save enough to carry her for more than 1 year?

Fuck it...I was her age in the Raygun years. Then I was laid off at age 40. After having saved 10% of my salary every year for 10 years, driving a shitbox I paid cash for, I had a *negative* net worth of $20K thanks to Raygun deliberately crashing the condo market. But at age 40, I still had time to come back and I did.

Sorry, but I'm saving my sympathy for woman who are my age and older. Who were frugal, careful and were the first targets for criminals during the Bush years.

And I don't just mean me. I see the faces every day at school. Middle-aged woman struggling to get into nursing school or lab tech school. And I see them going down, one by one.

Last spring my anatomy lab partner ended up hospitalized. She'd been forced to drop out of nursing school once, to care for her sick daughter and grandchild. Now she was back at the end of the line, but the struggle did her in. I'm not sure if she made it out alive, but I know that was essentially her end.

[DS1]

70. Yes, I know it wasn't her fault, but that's where your anger was directed

It sucks for a lot of people out there. As much as I resent my bosses making huge money for being totally useless, I'm still secretly glad I have a job at all. That isn't going to stop me looking, however. Of course, around here if the new job I get suddenly tanks, it'll be all my fault.

[northernlights]

88. actually, no it wasn't

The interviewer/writer is the one who called her a "long time professional."

And I *don't* know many (or any) 35 year olds worth that kind of salary. I've worked with a lot of 35 year olds in my 30 years or so of working. I've had 35 year olds as bosses, as coworkers and I've had to supervise them. I don't know any -- myself included, back when I was 35 -- worth that kind of salary.

I don't blame her for being grossly overpaid. But in my opinion, she and many other 30-somethings, have been grossly overpaid, and got very spoiled in the process. Back before my career crashed, I saw the damage they were doing and I felt the whiplash trying to clean up their messes and tolerate their abuse. And I saw experience, talented people dumped and replaced by them.

Last spring, my anatomy professor (with 35+ years as a nurse) told us straight out that if she went down, step over her body and go get a cup of coffee because she didn't want some 30-something intern pounding on her chest breaking all her ribs.

[eilen]

35. It is a sad commentary when a 35 year old can't get hired

we are pretty much cognizant of the age discrimination for those over 45, but 35? I wonder what she was doing when earning $80,000 /year. Maybe she was a loan originator for a mortgage company or a paralegal.

[sohndrsmith]

89. I think people - particularly in the over 40 age group are increasingly

finding themselves in situations not unlike yours - where no matter what you do it's a Catch-22 and the one thing we can't do is erase a decade or two. It's not "supposed" to be an issue, but I think it is becoming more of one.

But I'm mostly interested in your including 9/11 in your post - and I am curious as to why you said that. I believe it is an extremely significant component that has made changes in our lives that are far-reaching and devastating (and have zero to do with terrorism).

So I was just wondering what made you mention that. People usually just blow me off when I try to explain the impact on us and our society and tell me I'm just being silly. I don't think there's anything silly about it.

Just wondering what your take on this is...

[northernlights]

127. I was riding out the high-tech bust

I left my 6-figure contract at Digital Equipment after 17 years there, 1 year after they were bought by Compaq, because my job was moving to Texas within a couple months and I had no interest in going with it. (Nothing personal against Texans, but they were a bunch of jerks and I can't breathe in heat plus humidity, fear tornados and killer bees.) I figured they wouldn't last more than 2 years (and I was right, almost to the month, when the HP deal when down) and I didn't want to get stuck unemployed on the other side of the country in a place I didn't like and where I didn't know anybody. My Compaq replacement was dumped within the first 30 days of the HP takeover, so my instinct was right there.

I went to a start-up at a little more than half my prior salary plus stock options, which went bust after 1 year. They needed 1 more round of funding, but there had been too much corruption and greed. Then I went to a tiny, private high-tech consulting firm that was growing fast -- went from 8 employees to 50...and right back to 8 after 9/11 knocked the high tech market flat on its back.

People may have forgotten, but for a long while there, the post-9/11 recovery was called "the jobless recovery." I suspect that if you looked at the numbers of people actually employed (as in, filing a tax return in which they earned money) you might find the numbers have declined since 9/11.

I also think that it didn't have to be this way. If * had followed his own effing spin and "stayed the course" in Afghanistan instead of embarking on his neocon fanstasy, we could have had a real recovery. If we'd had an Obama in office in 2000, we would be in a very, very different place today as a country.

Another thing that I noticed changed after 9/11 is that people changed...a lot. I remember feeling that reminder, "wow -- life really is so temporary, it's so fragile. Got to live while I can!" And I went off in search of some happiness instead of always saving for someday in the future.

I expected other people to be feeling the same way, and I think they were. Only those with a criminal bent came out of their shells. And with the FBI focussed entirely on terrorism and the police force downsized (* undid the 100K police in the street program), a largely unreported crime wave took off.

I had my identity stolen by a ring of thieve operating out of HP and Fidelity Investments. I have tons of circumstantial evidence that points directly at a former co-worker and his wife (a VP at Fidelity). I reported it to the police, the FBI, the FTC, Fidelity and HP. Nobody did anything. HP refuses even to answer their phone or return a call! I was harrassed 3 years straight by a registered sex offender straight out of jail -- cops hands tied. I escaped to Maine, where the 1st contractor I hired used his bulldozer to deliberately trash my property. The police threatened 110 pound, 50 year old *me* with jail time for supposedly threatening an armed man 3 times my size and 10 years younger. I've had mail stolen (including a credit card) -- police blew it off as a prank. I was poisoned, harrassed in my home and my animals assaulted by my one employer up here. The Maine Labor Dept. told me they can do anything they want, and if I don't like it go get another job. I was lied to by the adviser at the university where I'm trying to get into the med lab tech program, which will make it take 1 year longer, force me to take more than the required courses...and at least double my anticipated debt. While I see students with far lower GPAs jumping ahead because they have relatives working in the local hospitals.

It just became a fucking free-for-all under *. And although it started under his watch, his use of 9/11 as cover enabled him to totally trash this country.

[sohndrsmith]

140. Oh I'm so sorry. I can't believe how much your post reminds me how many

more things that aftermath of 9/11 has affected people in so many devastating ways it's becoming almost immeasurable.

So much for keeping this country "safe". You may have not been injured by shrapnel, but I'd be hard pressed to say you escaped unscathed or were kept "safe"

Good grief. I get more disgusted with what these people (BUSH) did the more I learn.

I'm so sorry.

I started a more detailed response but I closed it and now I'm too tired to think straight, so I'll have to wait till tomorrow...

[Greyhound]

150. Kick and reminder to come back to this tomorrow.

Our experiences are very common, much more than most of us think due to the "media" deliberately ignoring and refusing to report this.

[graywarrior]

29. At her age of 35!

Try my age.

BTW, I'm so glad I'm experienced at living with less than 20 grand per year. My nephew just lost his 125 grand a year job today.

[eilen]

39. it happens I guess

both my parents were real estate agents in the 1970's and when the bottom fell out of the market they were stranded. My mother eventually got a job as a secretary and my stepfather managed a slaughterhouse (was a meat cutter before he sold real estate). At least we had meat to eat but they still were cheated out of commissions they had earned.

(There were 8 kids to support and no one considered blowing our heads off for fear of poverty-- for a little while we quietly went on food stamps and some state assistance which was mostly for me and my siblings since my dad was deadbeat for that year, but the state got their money back when we sold our house)--they put liens on property back then.

[graywarrior]

53. I think a lot of us here have been through the same

This economy crisis will either make us or break us as individuals as well as a country.

[taught_me_patience]

30. A lot of sickening heartless responses in this thread

class warfare at its finest.

[dugaresa]

32. nothing like watching the peasants laugh at the hardships of the other peasants

i feel bad for the woman...she wanted to change her life for the better...left a job...went to school...changed her mind and now finds herself in a bad situation. She had the guts to do what a lot of us might be too timid to do...and I do feel bad for her.

[burythehatchet]

45. These are the people who would be true red Republickans if they had the asset base

[patriotvoice]

57. Yeah, sadly. We revel in displaced anger.

We hate her before because we're jealous: jealous of that job -- that perfect thing -- which she gave up to stretch more. Then we laugh at her for falling, because we would surely never do what she did, had we had such a perfect thing.

Experience is learning from your own mistakes; wisdom is learning from others. Respect is tending your own wounds after you fall; compassion is tending others. To breathe, to have the opportunity for experience and respect is a right we should all cherish. Wisdom and compassion -- that is something we must work for.

[taught_me_patience]

67. Nailed it

Jealousy is the at the heart of it and it's sad. A person who gives up a great job in order to better themselves should be commended for taking such a risk. It's a risk that many are unwilling to take, but is the spirit that creates prosperity.

If she completed school and worked at a great law firm and made 150k, there would be just as many DUers jealous of that success.

[philk17088]

92. she didn't think

With this economy sliding down the last 2 years, you use common sense, you put aspirations on hold and do what you can. A 35 year old could live on half the 80 grand and socked 40 grand away a year for law school. Taken night classes while working to see if it was really what she wanted.
Common sense tells you not to give up a good job on a whim in bad times.
Dreams are nice but you still have to live in the real world.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Those who have been floating in the water, clinging to the lifeboat...

... tend to be less sympathetic of those in the boat who dislike the fact that they are getting rained on.

[rucky]

103. no doubt.

wonder what it was about that story that pissed off so many people?

[cottonseed]

111. Same crap happened early this month.

Some story about a guy who lost his job. He wasn't the type of guy that attracts too much sympathy, but the dogs were out and looking for blood. it was disgusting.

[varkam]

34. The sheer hatred and vitriol on this thread is just astounding.

Did I take a wrong turn and end up at FreeRepublic somehow? For fuck's sake...

[Liberal_in_LA]

37. The personal financial threads always get a harsh response from DUers.

:shrug:

Particularly if the subject of the article formerly made a big salary.

[varkam]

40. I don't fucking get it.

Aren't liberals supposed to be, you know, decent human beings? I get the feeling that some of these folks would line up to torture her if they had the chance.

[eilen]

42. what if she left her $80,000 job to work as a community organizer?

and the grant ran out?

[varkam]

47. So the problem was that she decided to go to school?

How does that make any sense? I thought education was supposed to be a good thing.

[eilen]

93. I don't fault her for quitting and going to school

I feel bad for her. I am confused by those posting derision and mocking her life decisions, as though she brought it on herself. Then I remembered someone that quit a very lucrative position to work as a community organizer and made significantly less salary for doing so. If I recall, he also went to law school.

[slampoet]

49. As a law student i would think you had more of a view of the world.

[varkam]

52. It's not so much the content - it's the people that it's coming from.

Maybe I'm just naive in thinking that liberals were supposed to be more compassionate than freeptards. Silly me.

[slampoet]

118. It is the person who we are being asked to feel sorry for. Not who we are.

This is about her and her bad decisions when she had every privilege.
And she did QUIT her job and college.

Anything else is a thinly disguised Ad Hominem against the poor.


And for the record I am not a Liberal.


I am a Pro-Labor Democratic party member.

[varkam]

129. "And for the record I am not a Liberal."

You don't say. Well you seem to be in pretty good company on this thread.

People make mistakes, you know? Or maybe you've been fortunate enough to never make them.

[cottonseed]

113. Not that astounding. Same thing happend first week of this month.

Really agree miserable folks.

[burythehatchet]

43. If anyone wants to round up all the resident DU dipshits, please check this thread.

[slampoet]

46. She's CURRENTLY making more than I have made since 2002. And her 80k income is more than any TWO

years of my best income during the dot com boom.


Screw her. She didn't save it's her own fault.

[ozu]

48. wow

So is it merely jealousy of anyone who's previously made a nice salary that causes you to have such a lack of empathy?

[slampoet]

115. I am currently DUMPSTER DIVING for part of my income. Are you?

I'm sure the Eight people who froze to death in Michigan owe this person an apology too.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/01/grand_rapids_to_those.html



HOW DARE YOU talk of empathy.


You are alive and have all your toes.

[cottonseed]

104. Screw her. I love it. Compassion at it's finest.

What a world we live in. Fuck everyone because I'm miserable. Lovely.

[leftstreet]

51. What did you do in the Class War, daddy?

This thread is just full of win!!!11111!!!

[varkam]

59. I think we should cannabalize the ex-rich. Maybe we can even wear their flesh like coats!

:puke:

[Urban Prairie]

60. Humiliated?

Try spending your entire working life being victimized by offshoring, outsourcing, company bankruptcy, mergers, automation, and technological advancements. What she has let happen to herself voluntarily, happened to me involuntarily a half-dozen times over the past 35 years. People who make the most often fall the farthest, especially in Michigan: (thx RHCP)


Life is my friend
Rake it up to take it in
Wrap me in your cinnamon
Especially in Michigan
...well I could be your friend

White clouds I'm in
A mitten full of fisherman
C'mon huckleberry finn
Show me how to make her grin
...well I'm in Michigan

Cry me a future
Where the revelations run amok
Ladies and gentlemen
Lions and tigers come running
Just to steal your luck

A rainy Lithuanian
Who's dancing as an Indian
Painted in my tiger skin
(Especially in Michigan)

Double chins and bowling pins
Unholy presbyterians
Land is full of medicine
I find it when I'm slipping in
...into Michigan

The tainted new librarian
Who fainted when she tucked you in
Let's float away like zeppelins
(on stoic gusts of northern wind)

Out on the farm we'll be
Swimming with the mother duck
Deep in the mitten where
Lions and tigers come running
Just to steal your luck

Life is my friend
Underwater violins
Order now from ho chi min
A porcelain that comes in twins
...when I'm in Michigan

Throw me in the looney bin
Cause I can take it on the chin
The cleavage of your pillow skin
(Is moving like a violin)

[ecstatic]

64. Very sad. I just hope my industry holds up nt

[county worker]

65. Some DUers are no more humanistic than freepers.

There is a growing number of people who are going broke. Luckily I have not had to do it, but it could happen to me. It has happened to me in the past. It led to clinical depression which lasted for years.

We need to be pulling for everyone who is down and out!

Last weekend I saw a woman begging for money in a pretty well to do town. She was shivering in the cold and homeless. She is one of many. What can we do for her? What can we do for all those out of work?

Don't be so smug it could and maybe will be you next!

[varkam]

68. Well, we'd need to interview her first to find out if her situation was in any way her fault.

If we find that she was purely the victim, then we can go ahead and give her some food and shelter. If she in any way made any sort of a mistake that contributed to her own situation, however, then we should go ahead and kick out her knees and leave her there in the snow bank.

It's the DU way.

[county worker]

72. I get what you are saying. I give money to people if I have it no questions asked.

What goes around comes around.

[ozu]

74. It's like a social club but in reverse.

If you haven't experienced the same level of pain and misery of the truly downtrodden, then you're unworthy of any comforting words and should probably be thankful to still have things like limbs, or a coat.

It makes no sense.

[boomerbust]

81. I applied

For a 7 dollar an hour dishwashing job over at the local resort. 55 yr. old male, 32 yr. factory worker, disabled with a severe spinal condition. I was interviewed when I returned my app and this was the reaction I got from the sweet young lady who was doing the hiring.:rofl: :spray: :shrug:

[nachosgrande]

94. I urge compassion for everyone who is hurting

I was in a similar situation as this woman (luckily though, I now have a job). In my mid-twenties, I quit my job and moved across the country to attend law school in DC in hopes of becoming an environmental rights lawyer. Although I did well my first semester, by the end of my first year I was suicidally depressed and my grades had slid into mediocrity. And despite my best efforts, while in treatment, to continue, I ultimately had to drop out and focus on getting well. I came to realize that I had been suffering from depression - undiagnosed - off and on since I was a teenager. And it was the stress of law school that finally led to my unraveling.

After working for a few months to recover, I attempted to get back into the workforce; but despite my hustling, one unemployed month turned into two, and into three, and so on. Not to my surprise, no one wanted to take a chance on a person that had a two year gap in their resume at a time when they were supposed to be at their most "productive." This was a horrible time for me - an ego destroyer at a time when I was at my most vulnerable.

I share my story only because I see such a galling lack of compassion towards this woman. I feel for all of you who have lost your jobs (and did not voluntarily give them up), but I don't see why we can't also feel for this woman, especially when we don't know the circumstances of why she went to (or left) law school; or whether this woman was actually a good person who contributed to her community outside of her job, etc. Regardless of what mistakes this woman may have made, right now she is hurting just like the rest of us.

[KurtNYC]

125. Lots of mis-directed anger in this thread

Plenty seem angry about what happened to them and rather than realize that this woman has nothing to do with them, they direct their anger at her.

Welcome to DU!

[varkam]

130. Amen, and welcome to DU

:toast:

[Odin2005]

95. The vitriol against this poor woman is disgusting.

:puke:

[JackDragna]

96. To all the people excoriating this woman..

..you have no idea what she did to get where she is in life. This might be someone who busted their butt through college, has given money to people who needed it and took a flier on bettering herself.

[Joe the Liberal]

99. I wonder who she voted for in 2000 and 2004.......

Hmmmmmmmmm.......

[cottonseed]

102. Cool! Another post allowing miserable DUers to shit on someone without a job!

Love these posts... had one about a month ago. Amazing how many asses there are around here.

[rucky]

105. Just watch if she tries to start her own business.

that'll really set some folks off around here

[closeupready]

117. That's okay, because they'll suddenly find some sympathy when

civil unrest breaks out, as it does often in many countries with rising unemployment and deteriorating economies. Not wishing for that to happen, but trying to say, we have to learn from history so as not to repeat it.

[cottonseed]

116. Funniest thing about this thread:

She's making about the same now as everyone here telling her to go f*ck herself.

[varelse]

132. well, she *was*

she sure isn't now.

[girl gone mad]

120. Michigan has really been hit hard.

Even if she hadn't left her job to go back to school, chances are she would have been "downsized".

I don't get the vitriol in this thread. No one here knows her full circumstances. I wish her, and everyone else struggling to find good employment, well.

[conscious evolution]

124. My 'buddy' list just doubled in size

I can't believe the bullshit people are spewing on this thread.

[chill_wind]

126. CNN has been shoveling out these stories

quite a bit, lately-- (a couple previous ones on DU of 6 figure earners in the mortgage loan/financial industries.) Fair enough, but where were all these same stories under the last months of the Bush admin?

And as for any wave of all the special CNN story profiles of the former $7.00/hr worker, long since unemployed, evicted and living out of their car or at a shelter-- not so much.


Where have we all been? For years now- really, where have people been?

[Brooklyns_Finest]

133. $80k

Really is not all that much money if you are young and ambitious. She wanted to get a head in life. For the time being her decision has back-fired. I am sure that in a few years she will be back on her feet.

I do wonder what made her think going to law school was her best career option. I know many lawyers who make far less than $80k a year. In fact, I am assisting one of them in attaining federal employment.

Being relatively young myself (30), I don't really feel bad for her. She has a lot of time to recover and she still has options. If I ever lost my job and I could not find anything quickly, I would probably go back in to the military.

[SmileyRose]

142. She wanted to get a head.

Now that's one of the funniest typos I've seen in some time. or maybe I'm just tired. :)

[SmileyRose]

134. She QUIT an $80 grand a yr job in 2007 because she wanted more?

Dumbass. I know things are really tough, expecially for people who are viewed as overeducated and overpriced. I feel really bad for people who worked their asses off and still got "downsized".

In this woman's case though, I hope this is a hard lesson learned. It's unbelievable that anyone just quit a job that pays that well without something already lined up.

[Batgirl]

135. Some of the fury being expressed here towards the woman in the article

reminds me of all the times I've heard people whine about the spoiled, lazy, unionized shoprats. Even growing up in Michigan, you were bound to be subjected to the same speech from people making less money, with fewer benefits and no job protection -- pissed off people who'd decided that because the shoprats had it better, they should be the focus of blame and anger: "They have a lot of nerve. They already make $XXX.XXX (fill in appropriately bloated amount here.) My dad's friend takes a nap every day on the clock over at Truck & Bus, but if I even look at my boss funny I'll be canned. They don't even have to pay for eyeglass prescriptions and they all have a 4 wheel drive truck and a trailer full of brand new snowmobiles. Screw those shoprats. They deserve to suffer like the rest of us."

The expressed sentiment, roughly encapsulated, "how dare (the woman in the story) explore another career option, especially one that, if it had worked out, might have lead to a larger income?!" is pretty fucked up. First off, it's evident that she'd have gone back to school before the economic meltdown of last fall. Perhaps she didn't feel her long-term career prospects were all that stable and was seeking a backup plan. I work in a volatile field and have lost 2 jobs over the past few years due to companies ceasing to exist. My current job may now be in jeopardy because of how the work flowing through our department is slowing to a trickle. Sometimes I wish I'd had the foresight to go back to school years ago and learn how to do something else. I sure as hell am not going to automatically badmouth someone else who actually tried to do that. (Also, how petty to ask what she was doing eating in a restaurant. The article said she was at a job fair and went to the restaurant with other attendees. This is called fucking networking. If it makes anyone feel better, maybe she just ordered a coffee. Although she really should have just ordered a water and maybe flavored it with a couple of Splenda packets.)

Pretty sad that this woman, because she had the audacity to 1) make $80,000/yr. and 2) quit her job to go to law school, is reviled as having acted from nothing more than stupidity and greed. Those passing such judgement must just be so steeped in their own fear and misery they don't even consider how little actual information they have about this person that would justify their condemnation.

edit/punctuation

[Forkboy]

139. The assholes in this thread acting like that are useless shites.

Most of whom wouldn't last a week if they were really poor. Anyone who has faced that doesn't wish it on anyone. The pukes in this thread attacking her are a bunch of Repuke-like dumb fucks that would make Rush Limbaugh proud.

[SmileyRose]

141. Speaking for myself

I don't begrudge her anything. Every woman that can find economic independence is a good thing IMHO. I have nothing against being ambitious either. But in July of 2007 I can't imagine anyone quitting a good paying job and assuming it would be no problem to find another comparable or better job. The economy was already beginning to tank. Granted, with her education she probably thought she was recession proof and took the gamble.

It's a gamble she lost and that's a real shame. But I do not feel sorry for her at all. A woman smart enough to get into law school is smart enough to figure out a way to survive in the tough times. I'll gladly participate in the mutual back scratching hour to see if we can't rise a tide that lifts all our boats. I have plenty of empathy for her plight. She made a dumbass choice (only because of the timing) and now her life is difficult. But sympathy I do not have.

[Liberal_in_LA]

147. July 2007 the economy wasn't in the toilet yet. It wasn't obvious to the public it was tanking

until about Nov 2007. That said, a better choice would have been to go to school part time but that's not an option for law school.

[SmileyRose]

151. I guess I just live at a different level

In my corner of the planet, my neighbors, friends and family - most all of us in $20 -$30 grand range - we've been nervous most of our lives, worse since Reagan started shipping out jobs, more nervous after NAFTA etc, and absolutely scared under ShitAssInc. Quite a few I know have been seeing the coming meltdown since around 2002 and doing their best to "gird their loins". Even the family business I work for started re-arranging it's assets and business somewhere around 2002/2003 knowing the shit was about to hit the fan.

I'm not saying we are all geniuses with fortune telling abilities. We had no idea it would be THIS bad. But though it didn't hit the news yet, most folks kinda had that uneasy feeling and were making adjustments if they could. Seeing it on the TeeVee and the Interwebs just put a face and name to the uneasy feelings. No one I know would quit a job of any kind without another one lined up unless there were some serious circumstances involved even on a "normal" basis, let alone during times where we have "that uneasy feeling".

I respect the fact the woman in the story was willing to take the gamble. I really do. She expected years of law school and had to survive in that time with no income anyway so I'm a little perplexed as to why she's out of money and being evicted now that she's changed her mind. It's impossible for us to know all the facts of her life, naturally. I really do feel for her. Mentally, it's incredibly hard to throw all your cards out there and then lose. It takes a good support system and honest looking in the mirror to see where the errors in judgement were to avoid that particular loss again in the future. Its rough to go through the process of realize you did a dumbass thing and come out of it self esteem in tact.

Anyways, that's my take. :)

[Batgirl]

157. y'know, the lack of sympathy I sort of get; active "she-deserved-it" gleefulness -- not so much

Many of those weighing in seem unaccountably certain the job she left was secure. Why they would assume such is beyond me. In Michigan at least, the waves of mass layoffs and corporate re-orgs have been going on for awhile. I don't know a single person who feels secure in their job. The image of an empty cubicle should be on our license plate. I had a doctor app't this week with a physician I'd never met before and even he started telling me nervously how bad business is for him.

Fact is, we don't know enough about this story, or the woman in question, to pass judgment on her motives. It's more than reasonable to assume she may have been worried about her future career prospects and thought a law career would afford more long term stability. How much of what happened to her was due to bad judgement, I can't say (unlike so many here.) It's just as likely she made a gutsy decision that didn't pan out. The larger point goes way beyond her personal story and involves all of us who are trying to cope with this devastated economy. As opposed to angry condemnation based on few facts and zero personal knowledge.

[Forkboy]

138. These threads always draw out the DU douchbag brigade.

[Initech]

145. No shit.

:yoiks:

[Greyhound]

149. Are they multiplying?

The usual two or three assholes jumped right in, but there are a bunch I've never seen before (I mostly hang out here in GD) that have popping up to spew even more shit all over the place lately.