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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:24 PM
Original message
The country is moving to accepting gay marriage - Newsweek has a pro-gay marriage cover story
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 10:26 PM by karynnj
In the furor over Rich Warren being selected to give a prayer at the inauguration, what is ignored is that the country is moving towards the position of allowing gay marriage. Sometimes good things that happen get almost no notice, while there are endless threads spewing rage over something that likely means less. I suspect that the Obama team, feeling their base was securely and happily behind him did not fully realize the hurt that would be felt by many over this pick. They likely saw the prayer as a near costless olive branch to give an evangelical group still leery about Obama as President.

Recently, Newsweek had this cover story - http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653. The story makes the case that gay marriage is consistent with the values of Christianity. Now, many here will immediately say that religion has no place in defining civil rights. I agree, but this article is not for you - it is to make a case to people who have felt there is a conflict between the values their faith teaches them and gay marriage. To me, the significance is that the idea that a major newsweekly would not only write this, but have it as the cover story is something that I doubt even 4 years ago people thought likely.

Here is an excerpt:

"Let's try for a minute to take the religious conservatives at their word and define marriage as the Bible does. Shall we look to Abraham, the great patriarch, who slept with his servant when he discovered his beloved wife Sarah was infertile? Or to Jacob, who fathered children with four different women (two sisters and their servants)? Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon and the kings of Judah and Israel—all these fathers and heroes were polygamists. The New Testament model of marriage is hardly better. Jesus himself was single and preached an indifference to earthly attachments—especially family. The apostle Paul (also single) regarded marriage as an act of last resort for those unable to contain their animal lust. "It is better to marry than to burn with passion," says the apostle, in one of the most lukewarm endorsements of a treasured institution ever uttered. Would any contemporary heterosexual married couple—who likely woke up on their wedding day harboring some optimistic and newfangled ideas about gender equality and romantic love—turn to the Bible as a how-to script?

Of course not, yet the religious opponents of gay marriage would have it be so.

The battle over gay marriage has been waged for more than a decade, but within the last six months—since California legalized gay marriage and then, with a ballot initiative in November, amended its Constitution to prohibit it—the debate has grown into a full-scale war, with religious-rhetoric slinging to match. Not since 1860, when the country's pulpits were full of preachers pronouncing on slavery, pro and con, has one of our basic social (and economic) institutions been so subject to biblical scrutiny. But whereas in the Civil War the traditionalists had their James Henley Thornwell—and the advocates for change, their Henry Ward Beecher—this time the sides are unevenly matched. All the religious rhetoric, it seems, has been on the side of the gay-marriage opponents, who use Scripture as the foundation for their objections.

<snip>

To which there are two obvious responses: First, while the Bible and Jesus say many important things about love and family, neither explicitly defines marriage as between one man and one woman. And second, as the examples above illustrate, no sensible modern person wants marriage—theirs or anyone else's —to look in its particulars anything like what the Bible describes. "Marriage" in America refers to two separate things, a religious institution and a civil one, though it is most often enacted as a messy conflation of the two. As a civil institution, marriage offers practical benefits to both partners: contractual rights having to do with taxes; insurance; the care and custody of children; visitation rights; and inheritance. As a religious institution, marriage offers something else: a commitment of both partners before God to love, honor and cherish each other—in sickness and in health, for richer and poorer—in accordance with God's will. In a religious marriage, two people promise to take care of each other, profoundly, the way they believe God cares for them. Biblical literalists will disagree, but the Bible is a living document, powerful for more than 2,000 years because its truths speak to us even as we change through history. In that light, Scripture gives us no good reason why gays and lesbians should not be (civilly and religiously) married—and a number of excellent reasons why they should.


There were also hundreds of threads - and there should have been - on prop8 in California, but I saw none on the shift in NJ.

In October, 2006, Governor Corzine preferred civil unions to gay marriage - like most Democratic politicians. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E1DE153FF934A15753C1A9609C8B63


Now two years later, here is a December 20 2008, NYT op-ed on Governor Corzine's comments in favor of gay marriage. The op-ed starts with a stronger statement advocating for gay marriage than any I have ever seen in the NYT - I didn't see this posted on DU - though it would have been a bright oasis in the midst of the Warren threads.

"Civil unions are an inadequate substitute for marriage. Creating a separate, new legal structure to confer some benefits on same-sex couples neither honors American ideals of fairness, nor does it grant true equality. The results are clearly visible in New Jersey, which continues to deny same-sex couples some of the tangible civil benefits that come with marriage.

Gov. Jon Corzine of New Jersey has long said that he would sign a measure granting the right to marry to couples of the same sex. We are heartened that he has declared that that should happen sooner rather than later.

We hope Mr. Corzine intends to prod legislators into passing such a law early in the 2009 session. That would make New Jersey the first state to legalize marriage for same-sex couples through legislative action. Three other states — Connecticut, Massachusetts and California — have done so through the courts. Unfortunately, California voters approved a ballot measure in November rescinding that right, at least for now.

Mr. Corzine made his statement after a state commission released its final report on New Jersey’s two-year-old civil union law. The commission noted the hurt and stigma inflicted by shutting out gay people from the institution of marriage. It also found that civil unions do not assure gay couples of the same protections, including the right to collect benefits under a partner’s health insurance program and to make medical decisions on behalf of a partner who is unable to do so. The panel concluded unanimously that the state should enact a law to remove the inequities. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/opinion/20sat4.html?scp=1&sq=Corzine%20gay%20marriage&st=cse

Just as we need to step back and really see what we have won in getting Obama elected, we need to recognize the gains - rather than always giving more energy to the times we lose. This was the NYT and Newsweek - pillars of the establishment. There is change coming.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is why I don't agree with those who say we need to "unite" with Warren's ilk
More and more people are coming over to our side. If we don't throw the religious right any life preservers, they will hopefully lose their clout. Then any talk of "uniting" with them will be moot.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Exactly, Warren is being given an honor that he surely does not deserve n/t
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Exactly. What's Obama's point in giving Rick Warren this honor? nt
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. nothing. its only FUELING their bigotry
I have been reading the cbn boards and the christian evangelical boards..they are all hoping Pastor Rick can
1. bring Obama around to be born again
2. stop reproductive rights
3. stop gay rights
4. make this a christian nation
thats the only feedback. rick being onstage only fuels them. it does nothing else.
oh , and they hate gay people as much as they ever did.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. Of course it does, and thank you for that. Obama needs to back out of this mistake
It will cost him 2012.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Yeah, why does Obama want to take us back to wedge issue politics?
:shrug:
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. Wedge issue politics? You mean we must embrace the fascists and keep their ideology
in order to be less wedgy?

Puhleez.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Yes. We must embrace fascists, smile and bake them cookies,
and put a little notecard in with it asking them (nicely!) to permit us to have some of the same rights they do.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. It does seem that's what Obama is trying to say nt
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. If so, he is W R O N G.
And as far as I'm concerned, that's that.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. I'm with you there! nt
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Glad I'm not alone here in GD, lol.
:hi:
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. I'm just guessing, but I think it's because Warren is somewhat more moderate
than say, James Dobson and that ilk.

If you don't believe me then please consider this: I know a Dobson follower. Dobsonites believe that the two most important issues facing civilization are abortion and homosexuality. Bar none. This person's church vehemently (he said) opposed the Iraq War. Yet they would not vote for Kerry or Obama because the most important issues to them - more important than Iraq, more important than poverty, more important than any injustice, are abortion and homosexuality. Oh and global warming is a hoax.

That is what Dobsonites believe and the Dobson empire is a major part of the evangelical movement.

Now compare and contrast with Warren. Warren believes that homosexuality and abortion are wrong. But - from what I've read - he does NOT elevate those issues to primacy over all others (as Dobson does), and he's not a global warming denier - he believes (as I was taught in my church as a child), that one of humanity's charges from God is to be good stewards of the Earth.

That's a pretty big difference, and to the extent that engaging with Warren increases Warren's influence among evangelicals who would otherwise follow Dobson, in my book that's a good thing.

I understand quite well from your posts that you don't see that as a worthwhile reason. But I post for others who might be interested.

Now, I have seen some stuff about Warren that concerns me greatly. But even if that stuff is true, it pales next to what I know is true about Dobson.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. But why was Obama reaching into the fundie cesspool to begin with?
I'm assuming there are religious leaders from less nutbaggery denominations.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Maybe because it's an opportunity to lessen the influence of Dobson?
I don't know, maybe my perspective is skewed, but the Dobson Empire is pretty scary. If by engaging with Warren, Obama can pull some Dobsonites to Warren, then maybe they will start paying some attention to poverty and the environment and such things that Warren says are at least as important as abortion and homosexuality, and it will diminish their power on the "personal morality" issues while maybe even helping to get stuff done on poverty and the environment. :shrug:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Obama wasn't elected to realign church affiliations
Uh, he's got like a country to fix?

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Evangelists are all into politics.
They have a lot of influence, like it or not. Improving the tone and direction of that influence, even by just a little bit, could make it easier for Obama to run the country.

It's just a theory, and I have to go now. :hi:
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. How does who gives the prayer change fixing the country?
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. What?
:shrug:
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. There are, but Obama wanted and WANTS someone from the fundy cesspool to be his preacher nt
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. I think maybe Warren would not shoot gays (I think, I'm not sure)....
.... whereas Dobson might. Everything else is still the same. They both hate gays, equate them with perversion, they both hate women, believe women are inferior, and both are pigs.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. If we treat them like the "other" and demonize them, they will not even hear us
The first step has to be to soften the hatred and even paranoia on both extremes. I would bet that many of the people in Warren's flock are people that if you lived next door to them would be basically nice decent people.

I don't know if the arguments written in Newsweek would reach someone in Warren's flock, but they might - especially if they have a relative or a child of a friend who they love who is gay. It could help them reconcile what were two opposing clashing values.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I live in Colorado Springs for goodness sake
I know plenty of Warren's crowd. I was friends with many of them in high school. My mom's best friend is one of them. I know exactly what they're about. I'm not saying they're pure evil ghouls. Most of them are plenty nice. However, I can tell you that they will *never* vote for a Democrat and are quite willing to believe all the most idiotic things about Obama (we all know what that means) and the rest of us liberals. They don't have a problem being our pals on an individual level, as far as I can tell (although I'm a pretty straight-laced person myself, so maybe they think they've got something in common with me).

My point is that there are less and less of them and that they are losing their political clout. Eight years ago they were the most powerful political entity in this state. Now Colorado is one of the states that is completely under Democratic governance. They've been reduced to two House seats in safe districts. Focus on the Family is laying off hundreds of employees. More and more people are saying they're in favor of gay marriage than even four years ago. The whole religious right movement is gasping for air right now. It's not the time to lift up their supposed rescuer and put him on the national stage. That's exactly the kind of thing *they* need, and it won't get us anywhere with them.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I was not advocating for Warren to speak
What I was trying to point out was that the signs of progress, that you acknowledged, were being ignored. You say the groups are getting smaller. It seems to me the reason that has happened is that people are hearing other views and are thinking and are then moving away - and out of that group. That is not to say there will not be a hardcore group of bigots that will never be reasonable.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. That's a false dichotomy, imho. Not having Warren give the invocation is not "demonizing" him.
Lots of us have been saying over and over: dialogue, fine! By all means, convene a panel of religious leaders and have a bunch of discussions. Great idea, no problem.

Our objection is to giving Warren a place of honor at the inauguration. That's not dialogue and discussion, that's just crass political pandering at the expense of part of Obama's faithful constituency.

Obama can show respect and openness to the views of Warren's flock in plenty of other ways without slapping his own supporters in the face.

sw

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I didn't say that Warren should do the invocation
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 11:24 PM by karynnj
There are many reasons NOT to pick him - in addition to the fact that he is anti-gay. That was NOT my point in the OP or in the response. Not every post have to be about Warren or the invocation.

If it is my writing - I apologize, but it is ridiculous that you and others are acting as if I was supporting Warren - speaking when I don't and didn't write that.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Well said. (nt)
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. As others have said, well put!
:thumbsup:
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Link please on..
'those who say we need to "unite" with Warren's ilk'
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I know I didn't say that or think that
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. bowzer was replying to a different post, not your OP. (nt)
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. I love how people use this double standard argument...
That Obama is now a homophobe or something because he chose Warren, but Warren hasn't budged on his views by accepting. Maybe, just maybe the reverse is true. Or neither?
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. some comments by people supportive of rick warren speaking at the inauguration
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 11:06 PM by Mari333
from beliefnet:
Margaret Jones
December 19, 2008 3:20 PM


I applaud Rick Warren for his courage to speak out against gay marriage. I agree that gay right activistss don't just want us to tolerate their presence in our society but want us to endorse their behavior and normalize it. They consistently confuse sex with love. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to have sex with them. I think the Bible clearly condemns homosexual behavior. I suspect when Rick Warren said homosexual behavior was equivalent to incest and pedophilia he meant sin was sin and abhorrent to God. Pastor Warren also said we love to talk about other people's sins more than we do our own. He equated drug abuse with overeating and implied gossip was also sinful.
Look in the Mirror
December 19, 2008 3:46 PM

Anti-religion bigots try to get away with religious harassment and discrimination and call everyone who doesn't agree with them "homophobes." Militant anti-religion bigots, you better believe we feel very confident that we have NOTHING to fear from you....

Religiophobes......wow, thats convenient. If you disagree with my faith or lifestyle I just call you an Islamohobe or religiophobe or judaphobe, or Christophobe trying to insult your intelligence and belittle your perspective to make myself fell better about my hypocritical lack of tolerance.
Your Name
December 19, 2008 3:57 PM

Yeah, everytime some ignorant hatemongeror uses the phrase "homophobe," just throw a "religiophobe" at them. So intolerant these "tolerance" pushers are. Respect the faith and voting conscience of others!

Someone who would a "homophobe" would actually have a real fear of a person who was homosexual or attracted to homosexuality. Rick Warren might fear FOR such people, just like he would be concerned about someone struggling under the weight of any sin, including his own, but not fear THEM as if they are a leper. You anti-Christian bigots take yourself too seriously, and see yourself as too powerful and influential. Not everything is about sexuality for everyone! This is but one issue that Warren disagrees with, and their are millions that agree with him."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




oh yeah, they are so open minded and understanding. no, they are now fueled up. grrrrr. get those gays...grrrrrr.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. What in what I wrote fueled this?
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 11:50 PM by karynnj
I did not say I supported Warren speaking.

I would have thought that some might have liked the fact that these two MSM supportive articles exist. Now I see why they were not posted by advocates - there appears no interest in them.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. sorry,I was responding to the other posts about
people wanting to reach out to warren's league of bigots.
hugs.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Thanks - I was just concerned because others seemed
to misinterpret what I wrote to be in favor of Warren. I do realize - and given 100 plus threads in the last few days it would be impossible not to - that people are hurt by the choice. I do think the articles here represent an important shift, but it might be that now - when Warren is the topic of the day - is not the right time.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. That Warren would upset teh gay and much of teh left is roughly as predictable..
As the fact that if you drop an anvil on your foot it's gonna' hurt. Warren is a homophobe (for lack of a better word, I don’t think he is afraid of gays), a sexist, a would-be theocrat and is at least somewhat anti-science.

Glenn Greenwald at Salon.com has pointed out many times that if a politician wishes to be taken as "Serious" by the pundits and the DC "Village" he must dis teh left. Glenn supports everything he says with documented facts and almost always impeccable logic.

This is just Obama establishing himself as "Serious" to the pundits and the DC Village by dissing teh gay, teh DFHs and teh "far left". Nothing brings joy to the heart of winguts more than the lamentations of liberals and Obama has caused considerable lamentation by libs.

Now that Obama has ritually dissed teh left, he now is less likely to be thought of as a "Kookinich" by the pundits and the Village, it gives him more maneuvering room and strengthens his cred.

Never mind that on issue after issue teh left has proven correct while the right and the pragmatic centrists have proven to be utterly and disastrously wrong, what matters in the Village is that you be Serious and no one who does not dis teh left is thought to be Serious.
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Shiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. A small aside, in regards to this one comment you made...
"Warren is a homophobe (for lack of a better word, I don’t think he is afraid of gays)"

Maybe it's just my obsession with semantics, but that has always bothered me about the word 'homophobe'. A phobia is entirely different from hatred. I'm a cynophobic, which means I have an intense, irrational fear of dogs. When I'm around a dog, I'll freeze up, I'll hyperventilate, I'll scream sometimes. I might even faint.

But I don't go around telling people dogs are horrible, I don't go around kicking them, and I definitely don't get together with fellow cynophobes and go out looking for dogs to attack.

It just feels like improper word usage, and that's always been a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic. :hi:
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
28. I have believed all along that Prop 8 will not stand & it's backers are on the wrong side of history
It's a hateful thing that must be opposed and eliminated--the founders of this nation did not want minorities to suffer the tyranny of the majority, and that's what just happened in California.

But I sincerely believe that it is only a setback, and that Attorney General Jerry Brown will see to it. He's a good egg and cares about both the law and human beings. While initially his reading of the State constitution was that he was powerless to overturn Prop 8, since the election he has given it more intensive study and research -- and now his considered opinion is that Prop 8 can and must be overturned, and he will work to make it so.

History is moving us forward: the younger generation by and large has no problem with gays or gay marriage, nor do people who have a college education.

As Rachel Maddow pointed out, it was not "blacks" who passed Prop 8, it was people who did not have a college education, people who attended fundamentalist/evangelical churches, and older people. The intersection of those groups got Prop 8 passed, and the majority are not black. As Rachel said, "We have a lot of work to do."

Hekate


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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I agree completely
The movement has been very strong in that direction. No change is ever completely without any setbacks. As you say, the younger generation has no problem with gay marriage. I was surprised about 7 years ago, when my daughter writing something for high school showed me that age was better at predicting opinion on this than party affiliation, which was also correlated.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
30. The equal rights amendment was first proposed in 1923. 85 years later
we still reject the idea that over half the population is equal, yet you claim, in your enthusiasm for Obama and to blunt the richly deserved criticism he is getting over this obscenity, that GLBT people should be assured by a magazine article that it will all be OK.

Just how gullible do you think we are?



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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
31. just a thought . . . maybe both Warren and Obama are just misinformed and ignorant . . .
when it comes to homosexuality and gay marriage . . .

as you pointed out, literally millions of Americans have changed their position on gay marriage over the past decade . . . is there any reason that, given the correct information and made to feel the real pain of gay men and lesbians -- and given a little time -- either or both of them couldn't do the same? . . .

maybe our task is to educate both of these men in the coming months . . . who knows, they might surprise us . . .
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. That is exactly the point that I would take from this
I don't know of any other major social/cultural issue where people have moved as swiftly - including minority and women's rights. That does not make the situation less painful.

As to timing, I would better that even if Obama was in favor of any changes in law, he might have to wait. He will need to focus intently - using all the political capital he has to fight to get a stimulation package passed to mitigate the coming economic disaster. People are losing job, homes and their dreams - that affects everyone. (As President, he will set the foreign policy)
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