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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:35 AM
Original message
DUers who know me know I regularly ridicule & dismiss the tinfoilers. Till today
Excuse the long post, but this is kinda creepy.

Michael Connell (Karl Rove's email scrubber and lately Larissa Alexandrovna's news source) died in a small plane crash yesterday. Hopefully some of you tinfoil loonies (whom I will continue to ridicule) will post some of the details of the tragic plane crash. Apparently Mr Connell's small self-piloted aircraft ran out of fuel and went down in flames.

Wait a minute... did I get that right? "Out of fuel and went down in flames"? Someone correct me on this.

Anyway, as you'll see below, Connell was reported back in July of this year as "seeking protection" from AG Mukasey because of some kinda RICO business... Oh, just read it yourself--second excerpt down. It's probably all just a coinky-dink and a personal family tragedy, show me a scandal plagued Republican and I'll show you a reckless substance abuser, so this post is just my Xmas gift to you tinfoilers. But damn it sure smells fishy.


One of my sources died in a plane crash last night

December 20, 2008 | by Larisa Alexandrovna
(AtLargely.com)

I don't usually reveal sources, but I think this is incredibly important. Michael Connell died in a plane crash last night. He was a key witness in the Ohio election fraud case that I have been reporting on. More importantly, however, he had information that he was ready to share.

You see, Mike Connell set-up the alternate email and communications system for the White House. He was responsible for creating the system that hosted the infamous GWB43.com accounts that Karl Rove and others used. When asked by Congress to provide these emails, the White House said that they were destroyed. But in reality, what Connell is alleged to have done is move these files to other servers after having allegedly scrubbed the files from all "known" Karl Rove accounts.

In addition, I have reason to believe that the alternate accounts were used to communicate with US Attorneys involved in political prosecutions, like that of Don Siegelman. This is what I have been working on to prove for over a year. In fact, it was through following the Siegelman-Rove trail that I found evidence leading to Connell. That is how I became aware of him. Mike was getting ready to talk. He was frightened.

He has flown his private plane for years without incident. I know he was going to DC last night, but I don't know why. He apparently ran out of gas, something I find hard to believe. I am not saying that this was a hit nor am I resigned to this being simply an accident either. I am no expert on aviation and cannot provide an opinion on the matter. What I am saying, however, is that given the context, this event needs to be examined carefully. If you want to understand the context more broadly, I suggest you read this article I did a while back about the break-ins and arson cases that Siegelman and others have experienced.

Just to be very clear and state again, I am not claiming conspiracy theory or direct relation to Karl Rove or the White House in any of these events. What I am saying, however, is that these possible relationships cannot and should not be overlooked by investigators. There are far too many serious and reasonable questions that must be answered for the public.

I have been to Mr. Connell's home. Mr. Connell has confided that he was being threatened, something that his attorneys also told the judge in the Ohio election fraud case. When I met with Heather, his wife, I did so carefully because of the threats he was getting.

I left a note for her in her mailbox and asked her to meet me in a local park near their home. Heather came and through our conversation I got the sense that these were not bad people or corrupt people. The Connell's really believed that what they were involved in served God's plan. Regardless of of what any of us think about their religious views or allegations relating to Connell's involvement in various things, I do think these were good people who got caught up in something bigger than themselves. My heart goes out to Heather and the children.







Ohio Attorneys Seek Protection for Mike Connell and his Family against Alleged Threats from Karl Rove
Posted Thu, 07/24/2008


Sources close to the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim sent us a copy of the following letter that asks Attorney General Mukasey for protection for Michael Connell and his family who have been allegedly threatened by Karl Rove. Rove is believed to be the strategic mastermind behind the Bush 2004 re-election campaign and the possible Ohio election improprieties. The alleged threats appear to be the result of the re-opening, through the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim, of the stalled investigation into the 2004 Ohio Elections.

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:50:55 EDT
Subject: Report of Rove threats against witness Michael Connell

Dear Attorney General Mukasey:
We have been confidentially informed by a source we believe to be credible that Karl Rove has threatened Michael Connell, a principal witness we have identified in our King Lincoln case in federal court in Columbus, Ohio, that if he does not agree to "take the fall" for election fraud in Ohio, his wife Heather will be prosecuted for supposed lobby law violations. This appears to be in response to our designation of Rove as the principal perpetrator in the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim with respect to which we issued document hold notices last Thursday to you and to the US Chamber of Commerce Institute for Legal Reform. See: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6189 and http://www.archive.org/details/ElectionFraudInOhioCourt... .

I have informed court chambers and am in the process of informing the Ohio Attorney General's and US Attorney's offices in Columbus for the purpose, among other things, of seeking protection for Mr. Connell and his family from this reported attempt to intimidate a witness. Concurrently herewith, I am informing Mr. Conyers and Mr. Kucinich in connection with their Congressional oversight responsibilities related to these matters. Because of the serious engagement in this matter that began in 2000 of the Ohio Statehouse Press Corps, 60 Minutes, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, C-Span and Jim VandeHei, and the public's right to know of gross attempts to subvert the rule of law, I am forwarding this information to them, as well. Cliff Arnebeck, Attorney 614-224-8771 Cell 614-361-9434 cc: Robert Fitrakis, Esq. Henry Eckhart, Esq




I'm ready for my tin foil close up, Mr DeMille...


from SoureWatch.org

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mike_Connell

Michael (Mike) L. Connell is President, Chief Political Strategist and CEO of New Media Communications, Inc., a Republican website development and internet services firm based in Richfield, OH.

New Media's GOP clients are a "'Who's Who' of Republican politics", having provided campaign web services and Internet strategy for Bush-Cheney 2000/2004, as well as Dick Armey, Spencer Abraham for Senate 2000, Heather Wilson for Congress 2000/2002/2004, Rick Santorum for Senate 2000/2006, and John Thune for Senate 2002/2004 to name just a few. New Media also designed GOP.com for the Republican National Committee, RGA.org for the Republican Governors Association, and between two and three dozen state GOP sites.

In April 2001, Connell spun-off GovTech Solutions from New Media to handle its growing list of federal government clients, such as MajorityWhip.gov for Tom DeLay and Johnny Isakson. Business filings in the state of Ohio show that Govtech's founding members were Connell's wife Heather, and the well-known GOP operative and Chairman of the DCI Group, Thomas J. Synhorst. By 2004, Govtech's clients would grow to include more than 20 members of the U.S. House of Representatives, GOP.gov, the web site of the House Republican Conference, and the House Intelligence, Judiciary, Financial Services, Way and Means, and Administration committees. The latter was acquired while House Administration was chaired by former-U.S. Rep. Bob Ney of Ohio, who was convicted in 2006 of conspiracy to defraud the United States.


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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. k&r
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. Obviously Tinfoilers are smarter and more informed than you are. nt
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Dude, I've been making fun of smart people since before Dan Quayle was president!
Just because they're smart doesn't mean they're not targets for gratuitous taunting.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. We can take it
Because we all know you're just a CIA psyops operative anyway.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
114. If you wanna see REAL psyops operatives in action on DU...
Go to the 9/11 Dungeon.

Trust me.

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aejlaw Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
120. When was Dan Quayle President?
How could I have missed that episode of the Xfiles??
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #120
132. HA!
:rofl:
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. How is that appropiate?
Normally, one would explain any error of reason.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yep pretty obvious
Hard to not be at least suspicious today.
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tilsammans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. another k&r
:kick:
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. Welcome to tinfoil land
You don't sleep as well here, but things make more sense...I hope you have a strong stomach and a healthy heart- if you stay for any length of time, you're likely to be shocked, outraged and sickened at what's going on behind the curtain.

Good luck.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
91. its not even behind the curtain now-ie things like 200 billion to the hedge funds
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #91
151. The fact that so much has come into the open
Is actually an indication of how much worse it is behind the curtain. Remember how no one wanted to believe that we were sexually torturing kids to interrogate the parents?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. I had no idea.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. just sayin..if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck
its probably a duck.
I am glad shes putting the idea out there.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. Rove is a conspirator. That's what he does for a living.
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47of74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. I wouldn't put anything past Rove and is unholy orchestra.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. When hoofbeats are heard, tinfoilers think "zebras" and not "horses".
Certainly it is possible that it could be zebras, but tinfoilers think zebras every single time. That is why so many tend not to believe them when it might actually be zebras because it is zebras with them 24/7.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. Usually I think it's the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
And I aint talking about the wrestling team.
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
86. And if you think it's zebras every time
you're not shocked when it really is zebras.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. But you look stupid in crying "zebras" when 99% of the time it is horses.
Not impressive and no credibility.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #90
102. 90%? Please give a few examples
of conspiracy theories that have been proven wrong - since bu$h took -er,stole office
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
152. Ok- Can you at least give ONE example?
Edited on Mon Dec-22-08 12:52 PM by eowyn_of_rohan
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
11. the foil hats are
for keeping the other voices out...

so the guy that knows where to find the missing emails dies in a plane crash. this won't get much traction.
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
135. Tinfoil hats are to keep the Thought Police from using huge antennae
to read your brain waves and discovering that you are thinking subversively.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. K&R
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. I must say that this criminal cabal certainly seems to benefit by small
plane crashes.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. You shoulda took the blue pill.


Welcome to the desert of the Real.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. impecible sources
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. Oh, and how dumb is he for seeking Mukasey's protection?
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 12:10 PM by Bucky
"Help me, Robin! Batman's out to get me!"

"Sure, dumbass, just park your car in this secret cave and I'll keep you safe."

Sheesh--it's like he wanted to get whacked.
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
110. oh and just as an aside
Mukasey's attorney son is representing who? Bernie Madoff's right hand man. I think the name is Delizzia or something along those lines. He's from Bridgewater, NJ.




Cher


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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Larisa UPDATES at the original link:
UPDATE:

Okay children - because that is what I am going to call adults who willfully mis-read information. I will say this AGAIN (as I have twice in the above entry and also used bold case so that no one would miss the caveat), I am NOT - I repeat NOT - saying this was a). a murder, b). that it was in any way connected to the White House or to Karl Rove, and c). that I am convinced of any of the above three.

On the contrary, I have said - AND AM NOTING AGAIAN - that I don't know what happened. I am NOT an aviation expert. What I am saying - AGAIN - is that the context is important and must be considered. Investigators must conduct their work transparently on this case as to address the many serious and reasonable (not remotely CT-based questions) relating to this crash and the person who died. The public has a right to know and investigators must address these questions by conducting a very open investigation of the crash.

The facts are not all in yet and so I have no answers for you - AS I HAVE ALREADY NOTED. But I felt it important to share the context, obligated even to share it. Now if you folks (you know who you are) want to read this as me rolling myself in tin-foil, then that is your choice. Obviously that is not my hope, but I cannot help the lunacy that people want to engage in.

Larisa told me that Connell was prepared to tell everything.

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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Thank you. nt
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
62. A little bit of context, just a tiny little bit of context:
How many plane crashes occurred in the US in 2006?


Answer

there were 3 plane crashes in 2006

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_plane_crashes_occurr...
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. Thanks for the context, Priestly
Very telling.
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crazy homeless guy Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
112. Inaccurate stats....

Just look for the American flag on the right. I beleive those are all crashes in the U.S. in 2006.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Year=200...
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #112
144. Sorry! I found 13 on that list with fatalities, lots more without them.
Edited on Mon Dec-22-08 02:32 AM by JDPriestly
Still, small plane accidents are pretty rare.

Here is another fact that puts this in perspective/context:

1. How many flights per day do air traffic controllers handle in the United States?

On any given day, more than 87,000 flights are in the skies in the United States. Only one-third are commercial carriers, like American, United or Southwest. On an average day, air traffic controllers handle 28,537 commercial flights (major and regional airlines), 27,178 general aviation flights (private planes), 24,548 air taxi flights (planes for hire), 5,260 military flights and 2,148 air cargo flights (Federal Express, UPS, etc.). At any given moment, roughly 5,000 planes are in the skies above the United States. In one year, controllers handle an average of 64 million takeoffs and landings.

For every one flight you see listed on an airport monitor, two you don't see show up on air traffic controllers' screens. It would take approximately 7,300 airport terminal monitors to show all the flights controllers handle in a single day and approximately 460 monitors to show the number of flights being handled at any one time.

http://www.natca.org/mediacenter/bythenumbers.msp#1
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. if ya can't jail 'em
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 12:14 PM by seemslikeadream
kill 'em

Mobsters kill people all the time why is this so hard to believe? Pray tell?


bush has killed over a million people, so far, what's one more to him or any of his associates?
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
21. Hmmm...a lot to think about here
Recommended.
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exman Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
22. Nothing new under the sun
I am sorry to hear of the death of another patriot. I was around for the civil rights killings , Kennedy assassination, Martin Luther king assassination, Robert Kennedy assassination, Kent State killings and on and on and on. I am convinced that in most cases, where a person died while opposing the "Establishment" ( read BFEE &etc.) There has been an outcry, evidence of conspiracy, unanswered questions, outright lies, coverup, and so on and so on. But in the end nothing happens. Some people actually believe in coincidences. Like the person who eyewitnessed the shots from the grassy knoll, people who know too much die. Usually they have accidents. This is a fact of life that I have had to live with. I am proud to be a tinfoil hatter, if that means I can see the obvious and ignore the corporate media. Please remember that these people have killed 1 million innocent Iraqis. They would not hesitate to kill one computer geek who knew too much.. Or , Or, maybe it really was an "accident" :tinfoilhat: :shrug:
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Patriot? He was Karl Rove's email scrubber
I doubt he was genuinely flipping over on the vote rigging business--it sounds more like he was cooperating under duress and just out to feather his own nest.
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
140. Yes, it was probably something like that, imho
My mind doesn't think/work like that, so it's difficult to imagine/put myself in their "dastardly-dealing shoes" so to speak.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
24. Wait a minnute. I saw this before. In "The net" with Sandra Bullock.
Single plane accident, computer guy doa.


Hmmm.....
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thecrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Wait
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 12:57 PM by thecrow
No one could have imagined that someone would fly a plane into that ground....

I for one, would like to see an investigation of mammoth proportions.
How could they have known he was out of gas?
Why the explosion?
Wouldn't the explosion have messed up the evidence of the out of gas theory?


Damn.
And I thought Ken Lay's departure was suspicious.
This is (TFH here) almost obvious.

Edit... I thought there was a house involved?

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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. kicked & recc'd., don't be too harsh on the tin foilers, sometimes they're right
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
103. Apparently, we have been right over and over again as more and
more is revealed of this administration and Karl Rove's part in it. Watch for more revelations to come as the truth comes out. I hope everyone involved with this administration or who have spoken up against it learns a lesson from Paul Wellstone to the present. Stay out of small planes. Watch your back at all times and that includes our Larissa.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. Nevermind.
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 02:34 PM by Cleita
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. Shiny side out
Tin-foil hats work best with the shiny side out.


Welcome to the club.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Shiny side out?
SHIT!!!
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Lol! Face it when a Bush is involved, Tin is IN.
Tin, the new black. (wish I wasn't the only one who thought that was clever :( )
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #39
70. lol - I love it!
Mind if I use it? :)
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #70
93. Please do! :) nt
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. No can do. The shiny side still has dried out lasagna cheese stuck on it
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kaygore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
29. I had the same reaction
Why anyone who was a threat to the Republican Party and/or the power elite would fly in a small plane, I don't know. But then there are also the stories of people who are threats being found dead of apparent suicide in lonely hotel and motel rooms even when they had everything to live for and did not leave suicide notes!

But, of course, it is JUST coincidence!
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Keep in mind that everyone who dies dies "under mysterious circumstances"
And whenever someone who kills himself, our more suspicious friends will report "His death was 'ruled' as a suicide." Some CT pros have a long history of twisting facts to sell their cloak-n-dagger spins as bad as the mainstream media does.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. DIdn't Vitter's prostitute meet a strange end
not too long ago
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. Yes, the D.C. Madam, as she was called, told her friends and family she feared for her life.
Then, the next thing you know, she's hanged herself in her mother's shed. Despite the fact that those close to her said she was a very unlikely candidate for suicide.

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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. He was trying to light his last cigarette as the plane was crashing
Dropped his lighter and caught the rug on fire? Have they tried that one yet, because if not I'd like to copyright it.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is a terrible tragedy!
I just wish people, especially ones who need protection, would quit going up in small planes.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
37. OK, an extra layer of foil here
IF Karl Rove (or his "agents") did it, why now? And why Connell?

Rove can be prosecuted successfully for any NUMBER of dirty dealings he was involved with. Siegelman has his own list even WITHOUT the email scandal.

Is there SOMETHING ELSE in the emails that even Rove doesn't know about? Something so explosive that it would GUARANTEE that either Bush, Cheney or another member of the administration would be locked up?????

I need to find a good decaf.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
117. Well he was headed back to Ohio to testify
Perhaps he was capable of removing plausible deniability against some serious charges? Conspiracy to commit election fraud?

-Hoot
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
38. How can they pretend to know the cause already??? This is bullshit.
This is 100% cover up for the press. He either committed suicide because Rove was still threatening his wife or they gave him drugs or messed with his plane. The suicide theory is less likely, because the threats were federal prosecution, and Obama could have canceled those to get the guy to talk. Tampering with the plane would be tricky---unless there is a way to direct a laser guided control interrupting signal at the plane as it nears the airport to turn off the controls. I guess they could have arranged an improper fueling or a hole in his gas tank so he would run out, but usually you can glide to a safe landing. Drugging him would be pretty easy to do, too and would interfere with his ability to land.

There are so many ways to take out a private pilot, and this guy had so much incentive to cut a deal.

The Bush family buried him to preserve the legitimacy of Bush's second term. They all know that Ohio 2004 was stolen. Add another to the Bush Body Bag. And no President Jeb Bush ever!
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. "a way to direct a laser guided control interrupting signal at the plane as it nears the airport "
Are you referring to those little laser pointers people use to get their cats jumping around the living room? Cause those have been banned near airports for that very reason.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. They weren't banned on October 25, 2002
Just sayin'.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #38
83. Brings to mind a certain Wellstone tragedy...
didn't I read that the agency was at the scene in 20 minutes, even though there wasn't an office closer than several hours to the crash site....amazing how these things happen(I remember watching that weather report change several times)....Had I been this guy, knowing what I knew....there's NO way, I would have gone up in a plane, no matter how much I trusted my God to keep me safe...some things just require a little personal consideration and reality checks...wb
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
147. It's not uncommon for people to speculate
'he might have run out of fuel' is a possibility a lot of people might guess at, but I don't see it being offered up as The Answer so far. It could have just been mentioned as a possibility by an emergency worker or airport official. I'm keeping an open mind - it does seem suspicious, but on the other hand the circumstances of the accident don't seem that strange - bad weather closing in, very poor visibility, and takeoff and landing are statistically the riskiest part of flying.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
154. "laser guided control interrupting signal"?
Do you have any evidence that such a thing exists? I doubt it. Small planes of this size have manual instruments, not computer-controlled ones - you might as well posit a 'death ray'. Tempering is a far more likely explanation, if foul play was involved at all.
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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
41. K & R- As a member of the 'lunatic fringe' I salute the 'tin-foil hatters'.
It's the lame stream, mainstream you got to watch out for.

They'll sell you out without a second thought.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. Well it smells at the LEAST imo n/t
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kitty1 Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
43. Let's hope Connell gave a trusted advisor acess to those incriminating
files just in case this kind of situation came to pass. Heather would probably know a lot about what was going down with all of that business. Sounds like Rove and his WH goons corrupted the Ohio computer system big time.
Rove Air is sure getting famous for his one way flights by political adversaries.
(Lot's of Christmas foil around to use on this one)
Let's hope Rove's cell is waiting for him soon. Involved or not he's still a corrupt criminal.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
45. Update from MCM
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 08:55 PM by Hissyspit
http://markcrispinmiller.com/2008/12/mike-connells-deat...

Mike Connells death and Karl Roves threats

Posted by mcmDecember 20, 2008
CORRECTION: Connell was not flying a Piper Cub. He was flying a Piper Lance Saratoga, a sophisticated airplane with de-icing capabilities.

Connell flew out of Washington yesterday afternoon. Airport personnel there claim that he waited on the runway for two hours, because of the weather, and did not take off until it cleared.
At roughly 6:00 p.m., his plane crashed in a vacant lot just a few miles from the Akron airport, where he was headed for a landing. (He lived in Akron.) It was a residential neighborhood. Witnesses say that the plane exploded in a ball of fire.

Below is an email from Jeff Adams, noting that the Piper Super Cub has an excellent safety record. Right now were looking for more information, which I will provide as it comes in.

Meanwhile, lets recall that it was not a secret that Karl Rove had threatened Connell, and that both Cliff Arnebeck, the lead attorney in the Ohio lawsuit, and Brett Kimberlin of Velvet Revolution had alerted the authoritiesincluding the Attorney Generalto Roves theats, demanding that Connell be protected. Heres a blog from last July, concerning the request sent to Mukasey:

Ohio Attorneys Seek Protection for Mike Connell and his Family against Alleged Threats from Karl Rove
Posted Thu, 07/24/2008 - 10:18 by cho
http://discuss.epluribusmedia.net/node/2164

Sources close to the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim sent us a copy of the following letter that asks Attorney General Mukasey for protection for Michael Connell and his family who have been allegedly threatened by Karl Rove. Rove is believed to be the strategic mastermind behind the Bush 2004 re-election campaign and the possible Ohio election improprieties. The alleged threats appear to be the result of the re-opening, through the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim, of the stalled investigation into the 2004 Ohio Elections.
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:50:55 EDT Subject: Report of Rove threats against witness Michael Connell

Dear Attorney General Mukasey:

We have been confidentially informed by a source we believe to be credible that Karl Rove has threatened Michael Connell, a principal witness we have identified in our King Lincoln case in federal court in Columbus, Ohio, that if he does not agree to take the fall for election fraud in Ohio, his wife Heather will be prosecuted for supposed lobby law violations. This appears to be in response to our designation of Rove as the principal perpetrator in the Ohio Corrupt Practices Act/RICO claim with respect to which we issued document hold notices last Thursday to you and to the US Chamber of Commerce Institute for Legal Reform. See: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6189 and http://www.archive.org/details/ElectionFraudInOhioCourt... .

I have informed court chambers and am in the process of informing the Ohio Attorney Generals and US Attorneys offices in Columbus for the purpose, among other things, of seeking protection for Mr. Connell and his family from this reported attempt to intimidate a witness. Concurrently herewith, I am informing Mr. Conyers and Mr. Kucinich in connection with their Congressional oversight responsibilities related to these matters. Because of the serious engagement in this matter that began in 2000 of the Ohio Statehouse Press Corps, 60 Minutes, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, C-Span and Jim VandeHei, and the publics right to know of gross attempts to subvert the rule of law, I am forwarding this information to them, as well.

Cliff Arnebeck, Attorney
cc: Robert Fitrakis, Esq. Henry Eckhart, Esq

And now we need to push hard for serious investigations, not just of Connells death per se but of all his dealings with Karl Rove and Bush/Cheney.

MCM

Hello Mark,

Amateur pilots clearly have a higher accident rate than professionals. But this death looks suspicious*. And a responsible family man with a wife and 4 children would seem to be a low suicide risk even under the worst conditions.
Check with your friends and contacts that are knowledgeable pilots the Piper Super Cub has an extremely safe record. It was first manufactured since 1949. And it has been subjected to all kinds of individual pilot skill and maintenance attention. But all-in-all expert pilots will rate it as easy to fly and a very forgiving plane to as to pilot skill.
Jeff Adams
Berkeley, CA

*Wikipedia gives a concise recap of another whistle-blowers suspicious death which some may still try to write off as conspiracy theory bunk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood
For Aircraft Stats: http://www.ntsb.gov/
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Wow so the plane had de-icing capability? There goes one excuse out the window..
I don't know a damn thing about planes but I can't help but ask; what are the odds of a plane capable of de-icing going down due to icing?

Next.

:tinfoilhat:

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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #47
59. De-icing isn't foolproof
I am not much of a tinfoiler, but I will admit this crash is suspicious.

I know a bit about small planes since my husband is an avid pilot. De-icing equipment can involve a variety of things. Sometimes it's just prop de-icing, other times it includes wing de-icing. Even with both though, if you get in conditions that are bad enough they won't do any good.

I was in a situation once where we started to ice up. It's damned scary. If you aren't really paying attention you can really get into trouble quick.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Witnesses said the plane "exploded in a ball of fire".
I wonder if Mr. Arnebeck, who was aware of threats made against Mr. Connell, was savvy enough to secure some of Mr. Connell's evidence just in case.

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jetphixer Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
46. How does a plane go down in flames without fuel?
OK Folks I am an A&P mechanic by trade. I am a retired FAA accident investigator? Please tell me how a aircraft goes down in flames if it is out of fuel? The ole fire triangle Heat, fuel, an o2. heat is in the engine, o2 is all over the place, FUEL??? I would bet icing if i knew the WX in that area at the time. The little i read on here he should have been able to land the thing with out engine power if close enough to airport, there is a lot to investigate b4 jumping to a conclusion. Was the pilot under the influence of something??? Autopsy shows that! where did the fire start? that can be figured out. There are a lot of ?'s need be answered first what kind of plane was it?? :shrug:
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Hissyspit just posted an updated report on the type of plane here:
Edited on Sat Dec-20-08 10:22 PM by nc4bo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


http://markcrispinmiller.com/2008/12/mike-connells-deat ...

Mike Connells death and Karl Roves threats

Posted by mcmDecember 20, 2008
CORRECTION: Connell was not flying a Piper Cub. He was flying a Piper Lance Saratoga, a sophisticated airplane with de-icing capabilities.


See what you think.

(Edit to correct Hissy's name, sorry)
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. So anyone reporting "piper cub" was just spittin' shit out in the first place
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remedy1 Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #48
72. Self delete.
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 08:42 AM by remedy1


Sounds like a typical weather related/icing accident.

BTW, any witness reports should be discounted as they are notoriously unreliable.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
51. Anyone who doesn't believe in conspiracy theories after having witnessed the last 8 years
of this evil regime must believe that Bush, Cheney, & Rove (among other neo-cons) are dripping with good luck to have troublesome people with damaging secrets die suddenly & mysteriously.

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yy4me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #51
71. Read this list and add to it all you recollect that has not been
included and I assure you, you'll have a bad case of the jitters. I am not only sickened but, just like a good little sheep, I'm scared to death for all of us.

How many more days?
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #71
92. It wont stop once he is out of office....in fact, it may get worse
as the noose (hopefully) closes in.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
53. Welcome Bucky!
Can you hear me now?

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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
137. Welcome the newest member of our US Senate
"He's One Of Us"

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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
54. Anyone who doesn't believe in this kind of "unfortunate accident" hasn't been paying attention.
And Karl Rove smiles and says to himself "Now, let this be a lesson to the rest of you tattle-tales."

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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
56. Enclosed spaces filled with fumes will ignite more readily and more spectacularly than those filled
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 12:51 AM by leeroysphits
with gallons of liquid fuel. Any ten year old boy who still has all ten fingers can tell you that.

Having said that let me also say this: If I knew ANY damn thing about this administration you could not PAY me enough to get anywhere near a small plane. I wouldn't even dare board a LARGE plane unless Barbara Bush herself was flying first class in the seat next to mine...
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
57. What was Michael Connell doing flying around by himself in a small airplane?
Hadn't he learned/known that "death by small airplane" is a 'weapon of choice' by certain, shall we say, FACTIONS?

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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
58. Now that you've gotten the hang of it...
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 01:34 AM by bottomtheweaver
How about reconsidering JFK Jr's unfortunate demise? :hi:
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #58
73. Yes.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #58
80. Long ago reconsidered. 99% certainty the Bush Family basically murdered the Kennedy Family.
I think Chappaquiddick was the only thing that saved Ted's life from the same fate as his brothers. That, and the Bushies had already gone to the well 3 times with JFK, RFK, and MLK, so they didn't quite dare to amke ti THAT obvious.

Yes, it's at LEAST a 90% certainty, possibly a 99% certainty.

And yes, JFK Jr., due to his name and his budding interest in presidential politics was given what his father and uncles got. And given it in the NEW Bush Muder Method Now with EXTRA Plausible Deniability. 99% certain. Doubly so knowing the Bush Family Criminal History, knowing about Prescott Bush and his Nazi pals, and the Ollie North and Dick Secord were miraculously picked out of thousands to be in charge of the "failed" Iran recsue mission who's failure gauranteed the victory of North's and Secord's tyrannical masters. Sabotage, anyone? You think Ollie, an avowed High Treasonist, would think for a second about murdering some Army guys in order to place Reagan onthe throne?

We KNOW what kind of man Ollie is. Of COURSE he would murder Americans to furtehr the goals of the Bushie Tyrants. He's done it before, we know know through Iran-Contra testimony.

But yes, in retrospect, and once the scales of the "Emminence Front" comes down, the means, motive, and opportunity in each case stands out like a sore thumb.

This is worrisome. It says that, even after letting Obama ascend the throne, the Bushies are operating, as usual and with great success, as they always have. Not just murdering people who can hurt them, but politically (and here we must wait for Obama to have a year in office before we can truly do more than speculate) with the Auto Bailout the Bushies still appear to be running everything.

How is that possible? Easy. It almost ALWAYS happen like that. Tyrants bully. Democratioc Leadership (as distinct from the rest of us) quake, quail, cower and capitulate. Read Naomi Wolf's "The End of America". It happened 1928-1945 in Germany. It has happened at least from 1980-present in America, and maybe, considering Prescott Bush being also let off oHigh Treason chanrges in 1935, from 1935-present.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. I wear my tinfoil proudly, but I would never fly in it..
considering the circumstances, he was...wb
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
138. Yes
Delve into that a little, shall we?
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
60. k and r
the whole thing seems too convenient to me
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
61. so blatant...
oh well. to the memory hole with you!
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
63. When the fuck are people in danger going to STOP GETTING IN SMALL PLANES?!
At this point, the *ahem* coincidence rate alone should scare everyone who knows about it. Why take a chance?
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #63
74. John F Kennedy, Jr.....
That was an accident as well. Or was it?
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
64. Devil's Advocate
October 16, 2008
NTSB: Aviation Fatalities Down
Email this article |Print this article

By Glenn Pew, Contributing Editor, Video Editor



According to preliminary figures released Thursday, overall transportation fatalities in the United States fell 4 percent year over year from 2006 to 2007 and did include a larger reduction in aviation fatalities. Aviation deaths, specifically, decreased from 784 to 545, with general aviation as the segment's largest contributor. In 2007, nearly 90 percent of aviation deaths were attributed to general aviation accidents. For 2006, 703 of the 784 deaths were attributed to general aviation. For 2007, the numbers show 491 of 545 deaths attributed to GA. The numbers were delivered independent of total hours flown. Overall, there were 43,193 transportation fatalities recorded in 2007 versus 45,085 in 2006. Highway fatalities, the segment that accounts for nearly 95 percent of all transportation deaths, also dipped in 2007 from the previous year. Within that category, however, motorcycle fatalities were marked by a 6 percent increase -- the single largest increase in any specific category across all the included modes of transportation.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/ntsb_fatalities_av...



This was my first reaction.

My second reaction is that this guy's testimony would not land Rove in jail, since there can be no doubt that he will be pardoned for anything he ever thought about doing. However, the trail of crime would undoubtedly lead to Bush/Cheney.

Its all just a little too convenient. Tinfoil may not be required for this one
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. maybe
a little too dismissive on your part.

I don't think "General Aviation" deaths is the same thing as "piloting a small plane" and crashing under "unknown" circumstances.

How do you know "this guy's testimony would not land Rove in jail"? Do you know what he had to say? If so, i'd like to hear it...


:shrug:




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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
118. General Aviation
Is any flight not regularly scheduled. Not military, airlines, not DHL, UPS or FedEx, I think it also excludes experimental aircraft, but I'm not positive about the last one. Everything else is general aviation.

-Hoot
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
65. Because the pattern of republicon corruption & evil is so extensive, I must
k and r

This must be investigated.

And no matter what truth ever makes it to the light of day, or not, KARMA will unfold...as ever.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
76. Vince Foster...
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 08:57 AM by Baby Snooks
There have been questions raised along the way about the Clintons. About Vince Foster. And about two plane crashes. And about Pamela Harriman.

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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. The Cons did that, too?
Would not be surprised...corruption is the core of their soul...
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. No, the Clintons did...


When are people in this country going to wake up to reality?
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. Ahh, the Republicons set up a smear on Clinton
and kept after him year after year after year until they could steal the election and install their facist Homeland.

I agree.
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ForeignSpectator Donating Member (970 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
67. I don't know but anyone care to compare the high-profile to normal person ratio among small plane
flying people and the ratio of high-profile to normal person deaths in small planes?

And "out of fuel going down in flames" is pretty good story-telling...
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
68. I wear my tinfoil hat all the time. I have no doubt they killed him. I just hope
his wife knows were the stash of evidence is and DOES THE RIGHT THING!
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
75. I have no respect for conspiracy theorists here...
.....I believe you do not have a handle on reality, and what you believe is counter to intelligent thought processes, logic, and common sense.... but....

"Hopefully some of you TINFOIL LOONIES (whom I will continue to ridicule) will post some of the details of the tragic plane crash."


...only because it's a conspiracy theory that I personally, believe may have some substance.

I can only surmise that you are counting on the lizard people, no moon landing, and the chemtrail cts. :+ Thanks.
quickesst
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #75
88. Quite frankly you seem quite an unaware person in several ways.
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 10:16 AM by tom_paine
1) You missed the obvious sarcasm in the post. To respond to sarcasm as if it's on the level is unaware, to be charitable.

Please read the rest of Bucky's posts in this thread for confirmation.

2) Once again, you serve the tyrants while lumping legitimate concerns, those with obvious means, motives, and opportunity who if politics was NOT involved you wouldn't hesitate for a SECOND to "connect-the-shamefully-obvious dots".

Yes, if politics wasn't involved. If this was a Mafia case with the exact same set of circumstances, you would be laughing at anyone who DIDN'T think it was foul play.

Yes you would. 99% certainty. And I find that funny and deserving of a klown-nose smiley for you. Will this one do? :silly:

Finally, it is an axiom of history, that the less free and more tyrannical a nation is, the higher percentage of "conspiracy theories" turn out to be true. In the most extreme cases of tyranny, such as Nazi Germany and Commie Russia, history shows quite conclusively and without any tinfoil, that almost all the "wacky conspiracy theories" were TRUE.

People WERE being rendered into soap just because of their religion. People WERE being committed to a lifetime of psychologically damaging drug therapy and incarceration in "mental hospitals" for simply believing what the Founding Fathers did.

That is stone, cold truth.

Prescott Bush DID conspire to overthrow the government of the USA, depose FDR, and start a Nazi-like form of government here with Prescott himself to be tabbed as Ambassador to his good friends in Nazi Germany, if it had worked.

That is stone, cold truth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_2...

Now then, our nation has not gone to the extremes of tyranny, not even close yet. But the trend and direction toward tyranny is unmistakable and has yet to be turned around in the slightest, at this moment, though signs are better than in 28 years.

In this context, perhaps the fool is the person who, in the face of the obvious criminalization of their government before their eyes, clings to the thought-patterns of someone who lives in a much stronger, healthier republic that we Americans do.

Now, I have tried to explain why your blanket dismissiveness is badly misplaced, due to the time and place we live. Countries that are partially or wholly tyrannized (even kinder and gentler Inverted Totalitarianism, that recent Bushie Invention) can NOT afford the luxury of pretending everything is hunky-dory.

And this nation has been ruled by the moral equivalent of the Mafia for 8 years and possibly 28 years.(even if it is without the killing, most Bushies have the morals of Mafiosi, in terms of how they view the world outside their circle of family and friends - like Goebbels, they may be very nice to their families and friends, hiding the monster inside)

I have wasted time banking that you can see past the ego-red anger you are feeling at being rebuked to think about and understand my words.

IF (and I am only saying IF) the Bushies are as long-term tyrannical and evil as I think, then your blindly, unquestioningly obedient, to the Konventional Wisdom of Klown-Nose M$M, a known bunch of people who's idea of investigative reporting (with a handful of exceptions) is limited to calling up the robber and asking him, "Did you rob the bank?" "OK, he says he didn't do it! Run with the headline that he couldn't have done it!"...your obedience to their Konventional Wisdom, is the greatest gift a State Criminal could ever wish for.

One last thing: Why is it (and history shows this is 100% truth, too) that the Petty Criminal dreams of creating the perfect crime, but the State Criminal (and examine ANY era of history that doesn't trip the wire of your personal Coincidence Theorists' prejudices, and you will agree) dreams of owning the Police Forces so no matter WHAT the evidence, it can be cleaned up or suppressed or the LEOs simply told to stop working on the case, there's more important cases to be worked on, at the tyrant's leisure.

Now, I have spent more time and more logic to at least open the eyes of a keen-jerk dismissive Coincidence Theorist on the dangers of blanket condemnation, particularly in partially or totally tyrannized nations.

I have tried this before, and usually Coincidence Theorists are as close-minded as Freepers, where their personal prejudices are involved. Usually, trying to be calm and rational with a Coincidence Theorist like yourself almost always leads to MORE sneering, MEANER insults, and in general a VERY self-revealing portrait of the Coincidence Theorist and Angrier and More Thoughtless Than ANY Conspiracy Theorists They Sneer At.

Tell me you're not one of THOSE. Tell me I just didn't wast fifteen minutes of my life on speaking calmly to someone upon whom it is wasted and two minutes of vicious insults would have better served.

Please, if you respond, do so calmly and rationally, or reveal yourself as a "Lefty Freeper".

That doesn't mean you MUST agree with me. It means, agree or disagree, can you respond with the same level of civility that I just gave to you?

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suzanner Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #88
130. i was thinking the same thing,
wondering if the man in (was it Utah?) who had photos of Nazis with prescott bush and a young george h w bush in a hitler youth uniform- is he still alive. what ever happened about that?
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
116. In regard to your "chem-trail" reference, just thought I'd add a little humorous detail...
my Boston Terrier, who has an incredible sniffer, will bark & bark whenever he sees a chem trail over the house. He remains excited until the trail disappears.

Before you dismiss his intelligence, I must tell you that he loves to "play" the piano & he fetches his own towel whenever he comes into the house with wet feet. And, remarkably, he barks at people I don't care for -- & I'm not one to show my cards openly about people I dislike.

;)
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
78. Same observation from my pilot husband
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 09:17 AM by October
My hubby is a professional pilot. They study accidents in order to learn from them, as you may know. They tend to be less willing to think "sabotage" with these small aircraft accidents. But when I read "ran out of fuel..." and "ball of flames" he jumped on that.

This is wildly suspicious given the investigation and the guy's position of knowledge of information!

As usual, it seems only DU is talking about it.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. Pamela Harriman died of a stroke...
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 09:33 AM by Baby Snooks
And then she died of a heart attack. Maybe she died of both. Maybe she died of something that made it appear she died of a stroke. Or a heart attack. Or both. She died at the pool at the Ritz. No one noticed something was wrong? She was dead at the pool. Not dying at the pool.

Many who believe she was murdered believe she may have known something about the Bushes. And was going to warn us. She knew all about the Bushes to begin with. So maybe she knew something else she didn't know about to begin with. And someone didn't want her to warn us.

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #82
89. Yep. Could have been a Bushie Op. maybe not, but definitely possible.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #89
106. That's a good tag for Bill Clinton...
That's a good tag for Bill Clinton. Bushie Op.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #78
139. NTSB will have a report published
before to long. That site contains reports on the deaths of career airline aviators who die in civil aviation accidents.

I'll wait for the report.
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
85. And if they're willing to kill for this....
just imagine what more they're capable of.

Reynolds Aluminum Wrap is the best tinfoil.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
87. Rove Bush and Cheney are very very bad thugs
and Everything is connected there are no coincidences
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
94. Big K & R !!!
:kick:
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
95. Someday, somehow, Karl Rove is going to do the perp walk he richly deserves. Unless W pardons him.
One of the worst Americans ever. A thug, a crook, and a man who has done all he can to subvert this nation.

And now he is well compensated by Faux News, which is complicit in his thuggery.

My guess is that Bush will issue a blanket pardon to him before he can be held accountable.

The world would be much better off if Karl Rove had never been born.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #95
115. I've been thinking about those pardons. If the most guilty of them all is handing out the pardons,
wouldn't that take away from their legal value?
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Trailrider1951 Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
96. Haven't you heard Bucky? Tinfoil has been fashionable for a long time
I bought my first tinfoil hat about 1967(I was 15 at the time), when I read a book by Mark Lane called "Rush to Judgement".
I've been a proud tinfoiler ever since.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
97. I'd be interested in learning if he carried any life insurance, and if he made any changes to his
policy recently.
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Feron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
98. According to this story..
He attempted to land, hit a flagpole, and crashed setting a home in foreclosure on fire.
............................
A small airplane hit a flagpole and crashed on the front lawn of a vacant Ohio home, killing the pilot, authorities said Friday.

Michael Connell, 45, of Akron, died in the crash, said Ohio State Highway Patrol spokesman Lt. Tony Bradshaw. The crash sparked a fire that damaged the garage of the house, which is in foreclosure.

No one on the ground was injured. There were no passengers in the plane, a Piper Saratoga.
...........

Neighbors told The Canton Repository that they heard what sounded like an engine sputtering before the crash and that the noise sounded like it was coming from a plane.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081220/ap_on_re_us/ohio_pl...

And there's the rest of the story....

No tinfoil from me.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #98
113. Thanks for injecting a bit of reality into this thread...nt
Sid
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
99. I know the feeling, Bucky
I may be the last person in America who will go to his grave believing Oswald acting alone, but the timing of this one is suspicious on its face.

Connell certainly knew where the bodies were buried.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
100. I think it's murder, and I'll continue to think so
unless someone proves otherwise. When I read the news of Miked Connell's death on DU last night, my FIRST thought was that the timing of this alleged "accident" is just too damn convenient for Karl Rove. You'd really have to push coincidence theory beyond the limits of credibility to think it was anything but murder, faked to look like a not-very-convincing accident.

Murder of a key witness to silence him...if it was anything else, THEN SOMEBODY FUCKING PROVE IT!!!
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #100
155. No, it's up to you to prove. Yes, there's motivation, but that's not the whole story
You call it a 'not-very-convincing accident', but what accident would be convincing to you? If the guy slipped while walking on some ice and split his skull open, you'd just suspect the witnesses. I'm keeping an open mind on this one, it seems about 50-50 whether it was a genuine accident or there was foul play involved.

Consider: if this guy was nobody famous, would you find it suspicious? Bear in mind that non-famous people get murdered too - over infidelity, money and so on. You're more likely to be murdered by someone you know and have pissed off than by some random violent stranger. But if it wasn't for the political connection, this story wouldn't seem that remarkable - small planes do crash on a regular basis. The scary thing about a plane crash is that for obvious reasons a given plane crash is usually less survivable than an auto crash. If I take some random fatal accident from the newspaper (eg I was reading about a motorcycle crash yesterday), and substitute the name of Somebody Important as the victim, it automatically seems suspicious, no?

So, we need more evidence than just the guy's position in life before we can draw conclusions about the circumstances of his death.
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give-me-liberty Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
101. nice summation bucky
adding to the intrigue....
Connell flew out of College Park airport, reported to be an airport that has only a small # of vetted, 'allowed' flights because of it's proximity to DC.

http://neocon-panic-attacks.blogspot.com/2008/12/mike-c...

and why was he in DC on Friday? Meeting with whom? Why?

we know the bigger picture but now is the time for us in the election integrity world to collect the details before the CIA and FBI come in to sweep them all away.

We can add Connell to the long list of election world deaths such as :
Athan Gibbs
Raymond Lemme
** Andy Stephenson (For his death threats from Wally O'Dell)

and many other good people killed..

I won't say Connell was a good person, more like a catholic anti-choice zealot used like a tool for the gain of Rove and his machine, but I still want to know, who pulls Rove's strings? which religious zealot or corporation is driving rove's actions?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
105. In the spirit of admitting that things sometimes don't add up
with out a tin foil hat theory to try to make sense of something very fishy, ponder this.

Since cutting fuel lines or whatever method to crash planes seems to be one of their methods to off people as well as suiciding them off of tall buildings, whom do you really think was behind 9-11? My theory is that it leads all the way back to the Saudi royal family through the bin Laden family, who as it turns out are good friends with the Bush family. Of course Michael Moore strongly hinted at it in his movie "Fahrenheit 9-11" and it got him boo'ed at the Academy Awards. How dare he criticize the newly anointed god king who was going to save us all by invading.....Iraq? I have acquired a shelf load of tin foil hats since the coronation 2001.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

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Gamey Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
107. Coinky-dink?
The cutesy talk lends even less credibility to your opinions.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #107
119. "Less credibility" with who???
Even the diehard coincidence theorists don't seem to have much to say on this topic.
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psychmommy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
108. how long before rove is found in the hotel room.
an apparent case of auoterotic asphyxiation gone wrong?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #108
124. Never.
He's where the buck stops. Bush has a better chance of that happening to him.
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edc Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
109. Which Conspiracy
Why would anyone accept the official story about anything to do with power or money at face value? The old addages: "follow the money" and "who benefits" are the basic of all conspiracy theories. Conspiracy is the rule not the exception in the arena of wealth and power and always has been.
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
111. "ran out of fuel and went down in flames"
I'm not a tinfoiler either but this is so improbable that a plane with no fuel could go

down in flame and his death is so convenient that I say that the guy was murdered.

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
121. Kicked, too late to recommend.
Thanks for the thread, Bucky.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
122. Obamanation did it!
They found out the missing emails exonerated Dick and Georgie from everything, and would put an end to any chance of charging them with war crimes (though Dick still faces trouble on those unpaid parking tickets) and other treasonous activities.

They shot the guy down with an air-to-air missle from one of Area 51's Black Helicopters (been a long time since we heard about them guys) which is why the fuelless plane caught fire.

Dustin Hoffman is slated to play Rove in the movie.

OR

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Ask Bill.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
123. BTW-Isn't ridiculing DUers against DU rules?
:grr:
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #123
148. Individually, yes, Collectively, no. There are some stupid DUers, like on any other forum
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #148
150. Yeah, there are some stupid people who ridicule people who are searching for the truth. nt
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #150
153. Motivation does not automatically equal competence
One can be well-intentioned and also clueless; this is regularly on display in the sept 11 forum where some people regularly jump to wild and unlikely conclusions without any supporting evidence.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #153
156. It's better that tinfoilers search for answers than swallow the Kool Aid like stupid idiots.
Incurious = Ignorant.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. Logical fallacy is fallacious
Having standards of evidence and reasoning doesn't mean one is incurious. The problem with tinfoilers is not that they['re interested in something, but that they don't reason well.
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Lil Missy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
125. Here's a link from Political Video's about this. Certainly does seem suspicious.
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
126. Just like Karen Silkwood in the 70's -- she had information and needed to be silenced.
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 08:43 PM by CLW
She died in a car crash on her way to report the info.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
127. Quite obviously he did not get the requested protection. Why not?
Edited on Sun Dec-21-08 09:19 PM by MasonJar
The AG needs to answer for that. Also what experienced pilot runs out of gas? In addition small planes can be landed almost anywhere--in a field, on a highway. Why would an experienced pilot not crash land? Why would a plane that is out of gas catch on fire? This man was murdered, just like so many others. Rove et al play seriously high stakes. That little fat weasel (my sincere apologies to weasels) does not intend to go to jail.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
128. They'll do what they always do, investigate and say they'll "make sure it doesn't happen again."
I hate that phrase as much as "we're doing it for the children."
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #128
141. and "Let's Put This All Behind Us"
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #141
157. Ah, yes, the third phrase in the Most Disgusting Phrases trilogy!
:hi:
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
129. Merry Christmas
Very nice of you.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
131. STOCK UP ON CANNED GOODS!!!
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
133. I'm glad you've finally joined us.
There are many of us out here.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
134. Here, now be careful how you fold the tinfoil
make sure no sharp edges are against the skin

There...

Feels good huh?

He's the latest starting with Casey back at the end of the Reagan days....

Something about small planes and source, don't go together

Or in the case of Casey, going rowing on the Potomac
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clarkgabe Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
136. I agree. Me too
I agree. Me too. I don't get too into conspiracies but this looks waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fishy. It really does look like a morbid conver-up of gigantic proportions of the Bush Administration. I hope that this is looked into very deeply!
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
142. My hat is made of cotten. No need to put the tin one on. I had a the tin one
on the minute I read the headline, but when you have testimony (Larisa) that he talked to her and she says he was going to talk, there is no need to wear tin. Cotten is more comfortable while I wait for other pieces of news to come in. It may be better to think of titanium hats to bounce back all the disinformationalists, ridiculers, and diffusers - who load up the threads with their one liner put downs minus support for their claim passed through with pretend authority.

If you hear about xx person falling from an apartment terrace and you don't know a thing about the person and can't connect their name to anything, the page is blank.

If you hear about a plane crash (previously used method) and you know something about the person and you know the extent of vile ruthlessness of those who are in danger of truth and would benefit from his untimely demise (as they say), and you consider timing, motivation, gain, loss - you can afford to wear cotten - it's more comfortable and you fit right in. His page is not blank, it fills right up on the first second of the news release, and there is probably already a book full of pages that are filled with the facts, deserved speculation, quotes, and questions. This page was full the minute he lifted off. In fact, we are being cheated if the news doesn't report that he was returning from a meeting with Mukasey (if that is confirmed).

Yes, cotten for straight thinking while learning -

Fumes? No gas? Plenty of gas?
Who was logged into that airport? Who was visiting? How many people were officially watching his aircraft? How many were unofficially paying attention to it? Any ID badges unaccounted for? Jackets missing, badges? All our attention goes to the scene of the remains, time to back it up to the airport.

Questioning drives certain people crazy? They can't take someone reaching for the tinfoil. But this man was probably going to expose what we already know. And it is a timely wonder. When a person wonders, they often don't drop it and some are very organized in putting it together (a la Paul Thompson, Larisa, and many of DU's bloggers and other bloggers).

So take off the tinfoil - ignore the naysayers and ridiculers, put on the cotten and learn. It's the only mature thing to do. The track record for crimes against the people is self-stacked by those at the top.

The crimes won't continue to be inexplicable forever.


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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. This sounds like you're trying to place yourself at the 'top position'
Edited on Mon Dec-22-08 02:01 AM by Mind_your_head
of the junkheap.

Nice place to be. haha :rofl:

on edit: just thinking/talking like an OPPORTUNISTIC/predatory Republican! Gawd, I HATE (that's a "strong word" I use rarely(....but I HATE these STUPID, REPUBLICAN "people".)
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
145. ***a definite kick.
Too late to r.
Thanks. :hi:
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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
146. A Soprano type of "take care of it"....possibly, probably, maybe...
Ah heck, I don't want to be a tinfoiler, but sounds fishy, as has everything for a long while now.
Am I still considered paranoid if it's true??
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-22-08 08:26 AM
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149. I was just thinking.. what if it's a cover-up?
That is he was on the runway for 2 hours right? what if a robo-pilot like the ones used in the predator drones was used?
Not that hard for a professional to rig something like that up, Myth busters does it all the time. The difference is they use local radio signals, and this would be maybe cell-based or bouncing off a sat?

It's just so odd that after making what could arguably considered a 'successful' emergency landing (see about 20 posts above mine, a local news story) he still died in a fire started in the garage. I would think that even if you started that fire in a garage hit by a plane, there should be enough time to get out. Those safety belts are designed to be easy off.

just a thought.

for the most part this smells to high heaven, but lord knows if we'll ever find out the truth.
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