Which is a better way to grade students?

[Quixote1818]

Poll question: Which is a better way to grade students?

Read before voting.

This morning on the Bill Press Show they were talking about several school districts that have abandoned the traditional A,B,C,D and F system and are now doing A,B,C and Hold. Now instead of simply failing a student or even giving them a D the school "Holds" them to evaluate why they didn't pass and continue to teach them that lesson until they can make at least an average grade on it. At that point they can move on. When evaluating the student they may have to determine if the child has a learning disability on the subject or perhaps is having family problems or is simply just being lazy. Bill Press, who am have never been that impressed with, hated this idea and felt it was coddling the children, however I am sure kids who get a "HOLD" grade will have the same stigma as getting an "F" so I don't see where it is coddling them but making the determination that the kid still has not learned that lesson well enough to move on and needs some tutoring to get them up to at least an average grade. It seems like a common sense approach to me. By simply failing a child or even giving them a "D" and then moving on to the next lesson is not doing the child any good. They are moving on before having a full grasp of that lesson and such a system will likely cause many children to fall further and further behind and perhaps have psychological repercussions that could hamper the child for life.

So, having read the above which grading system do you think makes more sense? The old way or the new way?

[napi21]

1. It's foolish to sheelter kids from reality. Soon they will be in the business world, and

believe me, no boss is going to shelter them from the truth! To try to teach kids that you can't fail at anything is WRONG!

[CTD]

9. Agree completely.

One lesson that grades indirectly teach is the cause and effect relationship between effort and outcome. That lesson is priceless.

[Bill McBlueState]

21. effort and outcome?

I hope it's achievement and outcome, not effort and outcome. You shouldn't get a good grade just because you tried hard.

[Quixote1818]

11. "Hold" is failing

The difference is, after getting a "hold" grade, they keep working with the kid until he/she understands that lesson. Believe me if a kid gets a "Hold" grade they will not be happy about it and other kids will make fun of them just as bad as before.

[JVS]

36. As long as the incapable get the full dose of shame and mockery from their peers, it's all good

:smoke:

[annabanana]

45. lol. . you nailed it, thanks. . . . n/t

[Goblinmonger]

18. As a high school English teacher, what is my job?

To prepare them for some asshole boss or to teach them English. It seems from your response, that you would rather I just fail them without making sure that they know the standards I am supposed to teach. Then we graduate kids that can't do what the state wants them to do and people bitch about that. Seems like this method attempts to make sure that the kids actually learn something.

[Greyhound]

25. For some, perhaps too many, the only purpose of education is to gain a vocation.

All that other stuff is an unnecessary luxury.

Seems that more education would help them too.

[napi21]

31. Your job is to teach . It's not to shield kiids from failure.

I'm old now, but I remember being in school and being fortunate enough to have very good short term memory so I did well on most tests, but I wasn't interested in music or math, so I didn't pay attention. I always got A's and B's but I was stunned when I got an E in algebra one time, and it shocked me into studying. BTW, it's not an asshole boss who manages in the world of reality. ANY BOSS won't camdycoat your perforamce. If you screw up, you're going to hear about it...and you should!

[elleng]

33. And students job is to learn;

everyone can learn, and if teacher/school can't figure out how to get a student/students to learn, THEY've got somethings to learn.

[Goblinmonger]

49. So the student brings no burden to the table?

It is all on the teacher. There are some kids that just won't want to learn regardless of what I do. Most of the time because of home problems or other things going badly in their lives. I understand that, but doesn't change the fact that it places an impossible burden on the teacher.

[mondo joe]

58. If the parents don't partner with and support the education, there's only so much a teacher

can do.

[PVnRT]

62. O RLY?

So, when one of my wife's students tells her that their parents said it's OK to cheat to get a diploma, it's HER fault if that student cheats or just fucks around?

How about the one saying he's just going to join the army anyway and is just going to do enough to get by?

Amazing how much the Cult of the Child has taken over this place. I guess teachers are on the hit list now.

[elleng]

68. I don't mention fault, AT ALL.

It takes a village.

[Goblinmonger]

50. Your first sentence is 100% right.

My job is to teach. It is NOT to prepare them for college. It is NOT to prepare them for the workplace. It is NOT to prepare them for a life of anything. It is to teach them an appreciation and understanding of literature and how to write well. Period.

[mondo joe]

56. I don't think the teacher's job is to deliver emotional preparedness for employment.

It's to teach kids their school subjects.

[Phredicles]

2. It's not like there's much of a distinction between D and F any more;

At our school, if a student gets anything below a C-, she has to repeat the course. So it sounds like we essentially have this new system, although we still give Ds and Fs.

[Bucky]

3. Sometimes a "D" grade just means it was a bored smart kid farting around

As a teacher I frequently see D students turn into B or A students once they get motivated. They've been learning all along but they just don't care to show it until the fancy strikes them.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

5. I yield to your experience but in my stint I more often saw

F students being bumped up to Ds by what was essentially the fiat of the administration to make the school's records look good. That never sat right with me.

[wtmusic]

10. Yes - a LOT of that going on

which results in high schoolers who can't read or add two numbers together.

[GreenPartyVoter]

43. Yep. That's just apalling.

[wtmusic]

4. If we're talking about public school

it's next to impossible to get an F if you show up and don't act like an idiot.

IMO most Fs result from a lousy family enviornment and short of engaging Family Services because of abuse, the state can't get in the business of parenting. Not enough to go around.

[daninthemoon]

6. Interesting idea, but who pays for the extra tutoring? When does

the tutoring happen? Intersession? It's certainly worth a try. Was there any discussion of how the programs are working? How long have they been using it?

[Quixote1818]

12. Bill Press did a lousy job discussing anything of substance

on the subject. He sounded like Sean Hannity and his side kick shouted down the three people who called in and disagreed with them. Maybe someone like Thom Hartman will discuss this. I think Hartman would do a much better job looking at all the angles and be very thoughtful in the discussion.

[Greyhound]

7. Grades should be viewed as a reflection of the teacher, not the student.

Flip the system around, and provide the resources to act on the results, and you will quickly see improvement. Another artifact of the factory system is the separated class, people are individuals and as such learn different things in different ways at different rates. Currently the factory system cannot cope with performance outside the structure and has little, if any, flexibility in dealing with exceptions.

I think it is clear that we have failed to address this major problem for far too long.

[dmallind]

16. I wish I could believe that

I'm no apologist for teachers by any stretch, but there is undeniably variation in both untutored ability and capacity to improve via tutoring amongst kids (well amongst any people). It's not PC, but some kids will never be A students in any sense where the label has meaning. Some will struggle even to be B or C students. Some will not struggle willingly, and one area where I AM very sympathetic to teachers is their extremely thin range of options for what they can do to encourage kids to struggle willingly.

Touchy feely self help books aside, you can't tailor your approach and empower by motivation your way out of dealing with just plain dumb, or just plain lazy.

[Greyhound]

22. First, this was in no way intended as a knock on teachers. Sorry if that's how it came across.

The point is that we are using a model of mass instruction that was poorly developed almost two centuries ago, and it was a bad idea then.

The idea of people as cogs is the downfall of this method, the "just plain dumb or lazy" are a creation of a sick ineffective system.

[dmallind]

29. Oh I didn't take it that way, sorry

My qualifier was only out of concern that I would be seen as excusing teachers for all failure, which is not the case.

I do however disagree with your last sentence. On what basis do we assume that intellectual capability is equal? What other biological capability is? What other internal drive to improve capability is equal? Why should intellect or even the willingness to improve intellect be equal when nothing else is? Is it only good systems stopping Einstein being Tyson and stopping Tyson being Einstein?

[Greyhound]

30. I think we are in agreement. As you point out, Intellectual capacity is not equal,

and that is a good thing.

Education however, is, or should be, about more than the individual's IQ. Each of us has a desire to do something and (generally) the younger the person, the stronger the desire. Where we fail is in not recognizing or even acknowledging the individual desire. If we would determine that desire and follow up on it by helping to determine if there is any native ability for it, we would produce more competent, happier, people.

Why can't we simply change the system to accommodate the individual, rather than demanding the individual conform to the system?

The number of people that know "what they want to do when they grow up" is very small. Far more people have little or no idea, and worse still, many are excluded from what they would be doing through our system's lack of flexibility, the cog system, if you will. We end up shuffling into whatever opportunity presents itself and we grow never knowing what we would like to do until it is too late.

I think this is symptomatic of a larger problem. We need to really examine our whole system and consider why we do what we do and for what reasons. The potential and resources are here, now. America should and could be so much more than we are, if we could only engage each other and work toward solutions.

OK, I got a little off topic (If I even remember what the original topic was), sorry.

:fistbump:

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. What you are saying then, is that we need to massively increase funding and repair our

infrastructure and make the classes as tiny as possible?

That would all certainly be a good thing in my book, but would people really go for tracking kids into ability groups in their own classrooms? Someone else mentioned the PC mainstreaming issue elsewhere and it is a good point. How do we reconcile being welcoming of all levels and separating into distinct levels all at once?

[Greyhound]

54. Partly, but rather than distinct levels for the students, providing classes at

various levels where the attending students change.

Build the flexibility into the system to accommodate the student.

We also have to find a better way to administer the system, the current model is a disaster. Put the emphasis back on teaching. Perhaps make administration the lower paying positions rather than the only way to make more money.

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. So if I have students who refuse to learn and take the poor grades, I should be punished

for their lack of willingness?

I'm not saying don't hold teachers accountable, but there has to be some thought put into how to go about it. For eample, what if you have a very bad teacher who is passing everyone to get them out of his/her class? The basis of grades is not going to get this person out of the classroom.

My husband stopped teaching because of the dual stress of NCLB and parents and kids who defiantly just did not care and would not try. He got so very, very sick from it all. :cry: I also opted not to go into the classroom for the same reasons, even though I have a degree in education. We've found other ways to put our backgrounds to use: coaching, teaching Sunday School, working with our own kids. And in my husband's case, even though he is a computer repair guy now he often finds that his teaching background has been very helpful in assisting his customers in learning how to better use their systems and programs.

[Greyhound]

52. Not at all. I'm saying that if we change the fundamental system from one

that requires the individual to conform to it, regardless of ability or interest, to a flexible one that accommodates the individual's interests and aptitude.

We know that everybody is different, so does it really make any sense to demand that all 5 year olds read or paint at the same level? Who benefits from the early maturer's (you know, the boys that are shaving or the girls that are wearing regular bras in the 6th grade) being considered the same as the rest of their class? Does it make sense for the Gym Teacher to have to cover the American History class, even though she studied and is interested in Physical Fitness? You're teachers, not wardens.

I believe that you should be spending your time teaching those kids in groups based not on age, but ability and interest, rather than holding up or trying to bring along those that are outside the rest of the group. Imagine a curriculum based on ability that can be passed on the students time at their pace, wherein your job is to teach, not just supervise/control.

I have known half a dozen teachers, mostly in the LAUSD, and the tales they would bring to my parties and gatherings were terrifying, both on a personal level and societal. I worked as a tutor while attending college and have seen the failure of our system myself. It is broke, time to fix it, and doing more of the same is going to yield the same results.

[Caretha]

59. I agree that the system is "broke"

Let me give you an example of the type of school/learning institution that worked for my youngest daughter, in fact it worked for all the students that attended this particular private school. The school was K through Senior in high school. Each student worked at their own pace and choose their courses that they wanted to study at different times. For example, if a student was interested in nothing but doing math, they might study and complete all the courses in geometry, algebra & trig, while accomplishing little or nothing in other subjects. When the subject or subjects they were interested in studying were completed, they moved on to another subject in the curriculum at the level they were accomplished in. They were not given grades at all. There was no such thing as receiving a C or 70% comprehension and passing on to the next level. They repeated lessons until they were 100% correct and they had 100% comprehension of that subject.

The teacher's job was to guide the student and be the navigator of the map that would lead the student to the end of the journey in each subject of the teacher's expertise. The teacher would explain or teach how to solve the problems and assign the student the working material and exercises to learn it.

Student mentoring was encouraged. You would find students of all different age levels helping other students learn. Usually students spent at least 1 hour a day helping another student at a different grade level learn a subject. Classrooms were very atypical. There were no desks lined up neatly in a row all facing "the big teacher desk" in the front of the classroom. Classrooms were geared toward comfort and armed with all the equipment to learn different subjects, be it English, History, Geography, etc. Lots of low round tables, with rugs & pillows everywhere. The idea being that children learned easier when they were comfortable & not intimidated. There was no such thing as homework, socialization at home with the family at the end of the day was just as important as learning while you were at school.

A student graduated from high school when all course work was completed with 100% comprehension. There were also a few more requirements in order to graduate, one example of this was each student had to do 100 hours of community service to graduate. My daughter choose to work with Habitat for Humanity and helped build 3 homes.

This is a very brief synopsis of a different kind of learning environment offered at this particular school. It was innovative and rewarding for all types of students.

The most important thing I think that guided this school was their philosophy that children are innately geared to learn & that all the motivation they need is the proper setting for that to occur in.

[Greyhound]

63. Just what I'm talking about, thank you. There are a variety of alternatives,

any number of which are far more effective than the disaster we are still stuck in.

As with so many of our problems, all it takes is the desire and will to change.

[mondo joe]

47. Bogus. More like a reflection on the parents.

Kids come to the classroom with backgrounds and histories the teacher has no power to effect, and one school year in which to intervene.

I remember a kid who came into my 6th grade who had failed so many grades he had a mustache. He could barely read a sentence. There's no way any teacher could have brought him up to speed in that school year (unless he had a full time private tutor).

My kids have gone to school with kids whose parents frankly did not give a shit about how their kids performed and couldn't partner with the teacher to make improvements.

You can't hold the teacher accountable for that.

[Greyhound]

53. That's exactly my point. You work in a system that tries, and fails, to force individuals

to conform to it. Any system designer can tell you that that type of system will have a built in failure rate, and since each failure results in a person's life being negatively effected, probably forever, it is a loss we cannot afford.

What's the point of shoving people into college that would rather be learning to squeeze the last bit of performance out of a small block?

There are better systems available and it is far past time to adopt a better one. Over the years, we've had dozens of "pilot programs" that were very successful yet are not implemented for one reason or another, usually because it is inconvenient to somebody that can say no.

[rrneck]

67. You are right. How much societal damage is done

by teaching kids that when they fail they should stop trying to understand something? When the system gives up on them, they may learn that if they don't get it the first time around it isn't worth knowing. That's a dangerous meme to plant in a kid.

How many stereotypes are born when the system gives up trying to show people the value of another way of thinking? "Math is hard" could become "accountants are bloodless nerds". "Art is confusing" could become "artists are indecisive flakes". Those who have persistent questions become "effete liberal intellectuals"...

People are very complex, and those complexities need to be taken into account because complex systems fail creatively.

[dysfunctional press]

48. NO. bad grades should be viewed as a reflection of the PARENT(S).

it's the parent's responsibility to make sure that their child is being educated, and that the child is taking an active part in that education.

[mondo joe]

55. Precisely. Even if you've got a poorly performing teacher, the parents have the ultimate

responsibility.

[gravity]

8. It sounds like an arbitrary change

Instead of getting an F, you get an H.

If you really want to make some change, actually hold back the kids who get D's and F's. If they need extra tutoring, provide that too.

[Goblinmonger]

20. And complaints from property owners

about their taxes going up can be sent to you? My school district (which has about 550 in the high school) is facing a little over a half million in cuts due to the state cutting funding. How exactly do we teach more kids more classes when we have to cut teachers for next year.

[Scooter24]

35. At least your district isn't sending out it's tax dollars

to help other districts. 65% of my property taxes get taken away by the state every year to pay for many underfunded and underperforming schools. Under the "Robin Hood" law, we contribute about 10% of the state's total state recapture amount. If you include our neighbor district, about 15 miles north, then that number is about 30% of the total state recapture amount.

Residents here had to turn to building a $100+ million fund just to help us keep our popular programs. And even that is causing people outside our district to complain.

[dmallind]

13. Depends

If hold MEANS hold then it's an improvement. If hold becomes another version of fail and somebody else's problem than it's windowdressing. The problem is any real hold will result in lawsuits and parental/student whining, because it will mean either extra work in the classroom and at home or non-advancement to next grade with peers.

[Coyote_Bandit]

14. The only time

I ever got a D or F (and this includes 3 graduate and professional degrees) was in a class of 42 students - a class where 23 of us got Ds and Fs. The prof awarded 1 A and 2 Bs. Prof was a smart guy (grad of both Harvard and Yale) but he was a horrible teacher and he refused to answer questions. Sometimes bad grades are a reflection of poor instruction - and that can be true even if half the class does not get Ds and Fs.

[ColbertWatcher]

15. Whichever system allows teachers to teach, administrators to stay out of the way and ...

... school districts protected from privatization.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

17. Teach the best, shoot the rest! The old way has worked so well, why...

change it now? Get a fucking grip, the old way is a proven failure,
there is nothing wrong with slowing the pace to allow a child time
to get a 'full grasp' of a lesson before moving on!
The pursuit of knowledge is what school is SUPPOSED to be about!
---------------------------------------------------

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."
--Albert Einstein

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."
--Albert Einstein

(Twice for proponents of the old way!)

[dmallind]

19. Except for the kids who could benefit from being taught NEW things.

Unless we have a 1:1 ratio, then slowing down a class or subgroup slows down the whole class or subgroup. What earthly excuse is there for not tecahing a high achiever or even good solid middle of the road student more knowledge to pursue while you spend time making the slow kids pursue the last bit of knowledge over and over again?

Streaming is a possible solution, but the PC denialists won't stand for any indication that some kids are smarter than others.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

23. Thank you for tecahing me that some kids, you no doubt, are smarter...

than others, that one size fits all and those kids with different learning styles
are just plain dumb.
No need for wasteful remedial programs that would not slow the class down.
-----------------------------------------
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."
--Albert Einstein

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."
--Albert Einstein

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."
--Albert Einstein

(THREE times for you!)

[dmallind]

28. Why would it be me?

And god help you if you needed me to tell you that not everybody is equally gifted in intellect. Nobody ever questions this about musical talent, or athletic talent. Why is it so horrible to apply it to just another physical function?

FWIW sure I'm smarter than (the non-lazy) people who need to be held back during basic K-12 education, but most people are by definition. I was and am far from the pinnacle of gifted students however, and have no problem with either of those statements. It's not always about me when I have an opinion.

Ermm I believe I made exactly the OPPPOSITE claim that your kneejerk response to anyone who mentions smarter kids led you to assume. I do not think one size fits all (and said so very clearly), and think classes that put all those different sizes together are idiotic and misguided in the name of false equality, just like it would be idiotic to make a 120lb uncoordinated klutz play on the aame defensive line as a 280lb solid mass of fast twitch muscle. It would benefit neither of them individual, or the team they played on. Why then should we put their intellectual equivalents on the same "team" in educating them.

Kids with different learning styles? You mean ones who need rote drilling as oppsed to abstract explainations. or prefre individual or team projects? Or react better to lecture or hands on projects? Where did I mention those folks? They are easy to deal with by using multiple teaching tools and a variety of projects, lectures, tests and exercises.

That doesn't stop some people in any one of those groups being dumber than others in any of those groups though.

There very much IS a need for remedial programs. For, and only for, remedial students. Don't make the non- remedial kids do it is all I say.

[kiva]

26. This is a problem no one really likes to talk about.

On the one hand we acknowledge that many D students are bright but bored; on the other hand we say that we need to reach all students, and somehow this is supposed to happen in the same classroom.

[GreenPartyVoter]

40. In my son's cases they are allowed to go ahead in their workbooks. I am not sure

if this plan will still work when they get older.

[mondo joe]

57. I believe in providing additional resource for under- and over-performing kids.

In my daughters' primary school there were additional resources for both. Some kids got additional help, some got additional challenges.

[Blue-Jay]

24. Other: I didn't read before voting.

[gollygee]

27. I think it's a great idea

Rather than failing and giving up on them ever learning whatever subject it is, they have to keep working at it. I like that idea.

[elleng]

32. NONE OF THE ABOVE.

There are NO FAILURE students; school, family, society.

[bridgit]

34. new way

[JVS]

37. New system: Roxxorz, Good, Meh, Suxxorz, and EPIC FAIL!

[Dr. Strange]

64. I shall adopt this for my calculus class!

[JVS]

66. Tell me how the students react

[JackDragna]

38. I'm a teacher who favors the "old" methods.

In theory, teaching the material until a student can earn at least an average score is fine. The problem, however, lies in the implementation. How are teachers going to simultaneously progress with the regular material in the class while at the same time re-teaching material to struggling students? What happens when students, after repeated attempts, cannot master the material, for whatever reason? If additional personnel are needed at schools to help the "held" students, where will the money come from? How will you motivate children who come from households where there's no value placed on education? What will you do when parents begin to litigate to force schools to allow children to progress with the rest of the class?

Like so many new theories in education, it'd be great if we had the power to do it, but I'm already spending virtually every waking moment of the day just getting my kids through the material my employer expects me to present.

[Dorian Gray]

41. In theory

it's good. But having been a teacher, I don't think that the school systems is going to work with this well. Is this for the marking period or on a particular assignment? Either way, the teacher is going to have to focus on the many different projects/assignments at once. I don't see how it can practically work without completely overextending the teacher. (Unless the teacher has a few assistants in the classroom.)

[rucky]

44. And they will continue to "hold" until the teacher gets back to each and every

student on hold.

Classrooms don't have the resources to individualize the curriculum like that. In a perfect world, they would, though.

Plus, where's the motivation for students to keep the learning moving forward? In the real world we have hard deadlines to deal with. It's a good skill to learn to work under those types of pressures.

[surrealAmerican]

46. Other. You are calling these different grading systems, but ...

... they are the same (except for eliminating D's, and that is a very minor change). This is an intervention system for students who are failing or near failing. If you have the staff to tutor these students, this sounds like a good idea. If not, there is unlikely to be any difference in student achievement.

[BoneDaddy]

51. Balance Balance Balance

I work in a school where I see some extremes. Certainly the professionals in schools need to do their best (within reason of course, given the amount of students they have) but we are in a trend where accountability is swinging way beyond reason.

Many students are coddled, enabled and allowed to use any excuse for poor performance and the responsibility is often falling upon the teachers. Very little accountability is placed back upon the student and their families who often do very little.

When students leave this environment they are ill prepared for college or the "real" world as they have not been able to draw upon their resources and develop coping strategies. It is incredibly sad.

[teverton1]

60. vote...

i vote to eliminate grading altogether.

[Ediacara]

61. Hold might be good for Elementary, but traditional grades for Jr and Sr High

After all, Jr and Sr High are set up as electives. If you fail the class, you can take it over.

FWIW, my school district had a different grading system in elementary school:

E meaning excellent
S+ meaning more than satisfactory
S meaning satisfactory
S- meaning less than satisfactory
N meaning not satisfactory

Which is essentially the same as a five-grade A-F system used by the older grades, but was used, I can only assume, because the letters had more intuitive meanings.

If you got Ns, it was up to the teacher if you'd be able to redo the project, or do make-up work, or just suffer.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

65. Personalising lessons works better, but costs much, much more.

It is blindingly obvious that teaching each child at a speed tailored to them - going over the bits they have problems with repeatedly, and skimming over the bits they find easy - will be better for the children than teaching everyone at the same speed.

However, to do that, a teacher needs to prepare, resource and teach a lesson for each child, rather than one for twenty or thirty of them. So the state has to pay for far more man-hours, and if those man-hours were instead used for other aspects of teaching they might produce other, larger benefits.

Basically, in education, you get what you pay for.