Jesus was brought up at my 12 step meeting and all hell broke loose

[graywarrior]

Woman chaired and then began to tell us that we needed to accept Jesus as our higher power. The room went INSANE! Right while I was expressing my concern about not hearing about Jesus at a meeting unless he had a problem with alcohol, the woman left her seat and ran out of the room. The AA grapeline is buzzing today.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Did you tell her that Jesus is a myth and a superstition?

That hardens the heart and enslaves the mind?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

191. No he's not.

My cousin Jesús is very real. I just talked to him last week.

[graywarrior]

192. Is he drinking again?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

195. No, but he does have a nasty heroin habit. nt

[graywarrior]

197. In addition to a little hangup with prosties

Oh wait....we've debunked that rumor.

[Maine-ah]

247. that's funny.

I have a cousin out your way that thinks he's Jesus and has a bad heroin habit. He's originally from California.

[jmowreader]

328. Is there such a thing as a good heroin habit?

[graywarrior]

329. Well, there's good heroin and then there's bad heroin

Which habit do you have?

[jmowreader]

333. I have the habit of not doing heroin

I could PROBABLY get past the part about the intravenous injections most junkies like...after all, once the smack hits your vein any pain from the needle will go away. The closeness of "the amount of heroin that gets you high" and "the amount of heroin that kills you" is what I'd be worried about.

[graywarrior]

335. It's such a science, isn't it.

[graywarrior]

348. Has he cured any lepers.

Oh wait...I think I heard stories of him hitching on Crawford Notch.

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. Well I wouldn't say there was any evidence that He was an alcoholic

But a guy who could turn water into wine and instantly cure His own hangovers certainly might be tempted to drink.

[riqster]

163. Good one!

[graywarrior]

241. Bwahahahahaha! That's awesome.

Wish I had that for meetings.

[ProfessorGAC]

3. That Happened To My Friend Too

That was a long time ago. But, he was the one who objected to the "Jesus Thing". But, when he said it, nearly all the rest in the group agreed with him and told the group leader to knock it off.

But, it was a big deal for a while.

Hang in there. Whatever works for you is all that matters. My friend hasn't had a drink in something like 24 years.

The Professor

[graywarrior]

5. 22 years for me

But it pissed me off to watch two newcomers walk out because of that crap.

[ProfessorGAC]

9. I Don't Blame You

Me, i've never been through anything like that, and little altar boy me told my italian-american parents that i wasn't going to church anymore when i was 13. So, i don't understand, but i sort of do.

G'luck with your continued recovery.
GAC

[sam sarrha]

12. 10 years here.. meditation helped me the most...

[Truth2Tell]

155. ditto on the meditation. 7 years. nt

[BeHereNow]

50. Newcomers who walk out because of that are not done drinking.

If it wasn't the mention of Jesus, it would be the coffee
or not being offered a 30 day chip.
MHO.
BHN

[graywarrior]

55. Not really

Someone I know who has been sober for 2 years walked out. She went to another meeting. The newcomers who walked out at that meeting were at the meeting I was at today getting phone numbers.

[Truth2Tell]

154. I disagree

I left AA for Rational Recovery because of Jesus pushing.

Eventually I adopted Zen as a spiritual counterpart to my recovery, so I don't really adhere to the dogma of RR or AA.

Believe it or not there are many paths. The notion that there aren't is a failing of AA. IMHO of course.

[conscious evolution]

162. 'The notion that there aren't '

The big book mentions other paths once.Once.
Yes it is a big failing.
Made worse when it was not addressed,along with the advances in medical knowledge of alcoholism, in the newer editions of the big book.

[Ignis]

245. Here's a bump for Rational Recovery.

AA relies a lot on fear, submission, and intimidation. That works for some, but Rational Recovery (IMHO) provides a much more stable, thoughtful basis for long-term sobriety.

[dixiegrrrrl]

85. Thanking you for sharing.

Seriously.
After all the decades of trying to overcome the baseless "god" image of 12 Step Programs,
that incident sonded like a huge set back.
Actually sounded like Fundie sabotage.
And to have newcomers walk out. Damn.
Any serious friend of Bill would be very upset about that.

[graywarrior]

97. Fundies are welcome in AA

Jesus people are welcome. Talk about Jesus, Buddha or any other religeous icon is not welcome.

[Steven_S]

100. I'm at 22 years also.

A simple rule. I believe is OK. I believe and so should you is not OK.

[graywarrior]

101. I like that

There is a reason for Keep It Simple

[Justpat]

202. That is it in a nutshell.

Thanks. I tried to say that elsewhere in this thread in my usual bumbling, incoherent fashion.

:hi:

[raccoon]

166. Sounds like it's time for a group conscience meeting. nt

[stlsaxman]

200. my 21 years sober began with reading "How It Works" every morning until I got it...

Chapter Five: How It Works

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.

There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it -- then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Remember that we deal with alcohol, cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power that One is God. May you find Him now!

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.

Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.


Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventure before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

[Leftist Agitator]

204. "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

Translation: Atheists need not apply.

"Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs."

Translation: Atheists need not apply.

"Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character."

Translation: Atheists need not apply.


Great program you got there, though, what with its implicit assumption of an all-powerful deity and inherent reliance on said deity instead of one's own devices to effect self-improvement.

:eyes:

[stlsaxman]

219. Chapter 4 "We Agnostics" might answer your questions...

http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_4.html

I was sick and tired of God when I sobered up. Still am. Shit- I have no idea what the word "God" means. In spite of my beliefs 21 years ago I showed up at an AA meeting and found that if I didn't drink that day things would get better. Talked to a lot of other drunks that day and laughed and cried and got pissed off at God and my circumstances and blamed everyone else and God for what I was going through and shared it all with another drunk and felt just a little better about things...

all because i knew that if i didn't i'd be dead soon, or worse- i'd still be alive and drinking to feel okay. i needed to believe that there was something/anything outside of myself that was powerful enough to get me out of myself long enough that i could get to my pillow that night without taking a drink. i found that something in AA. this "higher power" they speak of certainly is NOT an all-powerful deity, just a power greater than me. God had nothing to do with it.

guess you could say i had a "spiritual awakening" as a result of AA- my spirit was dead to the world and one day it woke up. no "Sod In Heaven With HIS Choir Of Angels" moment- i just slowly awoke to the flawed human being that writes these feeble words today.

all i have to do is not drink today and tomorrow will be okay. and today ain't half bad. at the very least i can deal with whatever happens like normal people do.

[Leftist Agitator]

222. So, in other words, you have to rely on "a power greater than me".

So if you don't believe in such nonsense, AA isn't for you.

Why is it that you 12-steppers refuse to admit that you abstain from drinking of your own volition? That any change is due to the ministrations of a "higher power", resulting from voluntary subimission to the same?

"all i have to do is not drink today and tomorrow will be okay."

Indeed. So what the fuck is the point of AA's insistance on submitting to "a higher power" in order to "remove your shortcomings"?

[stlsaxman]

275. believe whatever you want. this is what worked for me.

[TrogL]

297. There is more to AA than the "God thing"

AA is a fellowship.

AA is a program of more than just the Steps.

AA provides opportunity for service work.

[Dorian Gray]

304. The point?

It works for many people. If it doesn't work for you, there are other avenues you can explore if you need Alcohol recovery. But the AA model works for many people, who what is the point of criticizing it?

[Catshrink]

4. Sounds like she's changing one addiction for another.

Religion can be just as harmful and debilitating as any drug addiction.

[graywarrior]

7. She also has psychological problems

[Fly by night]

89. Her "problem" was not in using Jesus as her Higher Power; it was in stating ...

... that Jesus ought to be everyone's HP.

She is free to choose anyone or anything as her HP -- she is not free to force that conception on others.

In my home room (here in middle Tennessee), many people say they have a Higher Power that they choose to call God (or Jesus). When I speak up, I say "I have a Higher Power who I choose to call my Higher Power."

See more below from this old drunk.

[graywarrior]

117. I've said that a few times at meetings

I saw eyes spinning when I did

[NMDemDist2]

120. I'm bad

I say "I call my HP "BOB" and usually drop it there, but if asked I explain "BOB" stands for Big Omnipotent Being

but in my heart of hearts, I call it "The Guys" long story, but it works for me.

we have a Biker dude at my little fellowship who says "I don't care if you call it God, Buddha or Bubba, just know it ain't you!"

[graywarrior]

123. I love the BOB thing. That is great!

One of my old biker friends who died a few years ago used to cringe when someone brought up their family at a meeting and he'd shout out "your family's dysfunctional coz you're in it." No matter how many times he said it, it cracked up the room.

[NMDemDist2]

126. your friend's wisdom will live on

I am SO stealing that line!!

:evilgrin:

[graywarrior]

132. Be his guest.

He's also tell people when they were whining..."man, if you don't know what do to...go help someone."

[Hekate]

143. LOL. That is *exactly* the kind of thing my #1 brother would say if he ever wandered into AA...

:hug: at the thought. It just sounds so much like something he'd say. But hey, at 60 (drinking pretty steady since his teens) not likely he ever will...

Thanks for sharing.

Hekate

[Justpat]

185. BOB works for me!

LOL. I love it. OB

[semillama]

199. There's no 'prob' with "Bob"!

[PassingFair]

322. What if you don't HAVE a "higher power".

The only "higher power" I have is my responsibilities
to my family.

That, and my own superego.

Atheists and agnostics don't need
to hear that they have no control
over reality.

They already know it.

[Fly by night]

356. You've already answered your own question (quite well, I might add).

If I took your first sentence and edited it a bit, it would read:

"The only "higher power" I have is ... my family."

Since I don't think "responsibilities" would be viewed as a source of strength and solice as much as "family" would, that little edit would put you in line with many sober alcoholics.

Put another way, a number of people define their Higher Power as "love". That transcendant emotion, open and heart-felt, that certainly defines something greater than yourself AND does not require the involvement of any other "being" (other than those who love each other) to validate or believe in.

Put yet another way: here's a research clip posted earlier on DU that might also help describe the healing power of a group of drunks -- that certainly defines a higher power (than the individuals involved) but, again, requires no diety to exist and have power. Here's that DU thread, entitled "Study says happiness transfers from person to person"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x48476

Again, if you're not an alcoholic or don't have any other problems that you are powerless over (and willing to admit it), that are making your life unmanageable -- then you may not be helped by accepting that the concept of a higher power (like "family" or "love") could be used successfully to restore you to sanity (and health and well-being and a state of serenity). But if you are powerless over something, I would suggest you give this way of thinking a chance. (90 meetings in 90 days would be a fun anthropological expedition into the minds -- and, hopefully, hearts -- of some of the 5+ million Americans who are being helped by AA.)

So if you need it (and you know it), try it. If you don't need it, try it anyway.

The recovery mind-set, practiced appropriately, makes it easier for us to get over ourselves, which helps us (regardless of our baggage or lack thereof) in this "real" world, in this perfect day (the time and place that, in my belief system, IS heaven.)

Have a great Sunday. Thanks for the chance to write these words.

[Le Taz Hot]

159. Isn't that the truth?

I've seen this happen SO many times. I used to teach parolees and some "friend" would invariably get them into one of the nutso fundie churches around here. They'd become real religious . . . for awhile. Then something would happen within the church, they'd get disillusioned, and BAM, they were back using again because JAYSUS couldn't magically take away their addiction after all.

[Kat45]

6. Umm, but isn't a central point of AA about submitting to a higher power?

I thought that God was an essential component of AA. You know, the Serenity Prayer and such. (I'm talking about the traditional Alcoholics Anonymous, not other recovery groups.) When my friend went into rehab, he elected not to also do AA specifically because of its religious component. (He's an agnostic.)

[graywarrior]

8. Fuck no. 90% of the people there wouldn't stay if that was the case

It's really more of a spiritual program and a strong fellowship. Most of my friends today are 12 step people.

[Greyskye]

13. The original 12 steps were quite religious

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

In some cases, where other twelve-step groups have adapted the AA steps as guiding principles, they have been altered to emphasize principles important to those particular fellowships, to remove gender-biased or specific religious language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

That program as written here probably wouldn't do a damn thing for me if I were in need of it. Half of the 12 steps have a semantic content of zero for me, in whole or or in part.

Congrats and good luck with your continuing program. :thumbsup:

[TrogL]

270. If you read the entire Big Book

The 12 Steps come after chapter 4 "We Agnostics" which lays out an explanation of the concept of "God as we understand him" (or not).

In the context of the steps, "God" translates as "Go back and read chapter 4 if you're trying to make a deity out of this".

[datasuspect]

340. If you read the entire Big Book

you can understand that Bill W. was a royal nutbar and that the entire program is the first 164 pages.

it is suffused with christianity and its ethos throughout.

not saying it's good or bad, it just is what it is.

[Common Sense Party]

17. AA is very much God-focused.

Not Christ, per se, but God.

[graywarrior]

18. But GOD is referred to alot as Group of Drunks

Many of us cannot tolerate the god thing in the religeous sense.

[Common Sense Party]

25. Then AA doesn't sound like a good fit. n/t

[graywarrior]

26. For who?

Besides it's a god of your own understanding.

[yardwork]

53. Worked for me, eight years and counting...

[graywarrior]

58. Congratulations!

Day at a time.

[yardwork]

67. Thank you. Congratulations to you, too! And everyone in recovery, one day at a time.

In the early days for me it was one minute at a time.

[graywarrior]

69. I white knuckled it for the first 3 years til I started taking suggestions

I don't think I took a relaxed breath for years.

[SharonAnn]

149. And for me, 21 years and counting. (Whoops, 23 years but who's counting).

[graywarrior]

160. Congratulations!

[CraftyGal]

277. What about Good Orderly Direction?

I just celebrated 3 years!

CraftyGal

[SharonAnn]

279. Congratulations! And, I like "Good, Orderly Direction"

[pipi_k]

92. It's not god focused...

it's Higher Power focused.

Some people choose to call their Higher Power "God"...some don't.

The basic idea behind having a Higher Power is that alcoholics need something bigger than their own egos to trust in and believe in and to help guide them through their addiction.

"God" per se...Jesus...anything at all having to do with religion...none of that should be allowed at an AA meeting because it takes away from the focus of the Program, which is that each person needs to find his or her own spiritual center. Spirituality doesn't automatically equal religion. People can have a rabbit's foot as their Higher Power if that's what it takes to keep them sober one day at a time.

[graywarrior]

98. Perfect explanation, thank you!

[varkam]

103. And God can mean pretty much anything you take it to mean. eom

[RedCappedBandit]

10. Yes.

The twelve steps:

1. We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him.

4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. We continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us, and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of those steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts and to practice these principles in all our affairs.



How you can read this and believe the crap they put forth about it having nothing to do with religion is beyond me. 12 step advocates that I have dealt with don't seem to understand that, yes, there really are atheists out there. I hate everything about the 12 steps, but I'm glad so many people do find them helpful. Not my bag of tea, though.

[graywarrior]

19. GOD Group of Drunks

If you attended the meeting I was at last night, you would see that religeon is NOT the basis of AA

[jberryhill]

71. Reminds me of people who insist that "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence...

...refers to a particular deity.

"...endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."

That passage does not require assent to any particular deity, or any deity at all. "Creator" can mean "whatever you think got you here."

[graywarrior]

75. Bill W and Dr Bob took direction from anything that would work

The Big Book is the most akwardly written piece of literature, but it still makes sense.

[Sal Minella]

39. I sobered up in AA as an agnostic, have remained agnostic & sober for 20 years & counting.

[moriah]

47. As they say,"take what you liked and leave the rest."

There's a hell of a lot of good in the program, no need to throw it away over a difference in how you understand the term "higher power".

(Alateen literally saved my life, and what I learned there has truly helped me keep my sanity.)

[TheDoorbellRang]

152. There have been atheists in AA

I went to Alanon, so ended up knowing a lot of AA folks, too. There's no requirement that you believe in God per se, merely that you acknowledge something -- anything -- outside of yourself as a higher power. Remembering back, I think the atheist I heard at a speaker's meeting used the collective group wisdom as his "higher power."

I'd say anyone who's worked the program would agree with me it has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

One of my favorite quotes from the program:

Religion is for folks who are afraid of going to hell.
Spirituality is for folks who have already been there.

[riqster]

168. I am SO stealing those last two lines, and passing them along

"Religion is for folks who are afraid of going to hell.
Spirituality is for folks who have already been there."



I am not in the program (though I did participate in Al-Anon for a while and learned much), so have never seen it. Thanks for sharing!

[Common Sense Party]

16. Absolutely. Complaining that AA meetings mention God is like

complaining that the Cub Scouts make you tie knots. They've been doing that for a loooooooong time, long before you came along. Don't expect a group to change long-established traditions just because you don't like it. (Not you, personally, notmyprez)

Perhaps this woman was out of line in specifically mentioning Jesus Christ. My understanding was that AA was very God-focused, but a Jew or a Christian or even a Muslim could accept it as is. I didn't think AA specifically went into mentioning the Son of God. Jews and Muslims wouldn't go for that.

[moriah]

31. "God as you understood him" can be many, many things.

It can be a higher self, fate, evolution, Darwin, etc...

For many people I know, the Higher Power is the group itself and what they take from each meeting.

[graywarrior]

32. Yes.

It can be the group itself. Believe that we believe, but most important just don't drink for today.

[Common Sense Party]

77. The group itself is a Higher Power? Darwin is a higher Power?

I can see one getting moral support and encouragement from a group of peers, but that's not a "higher" power.

As for Darwin or evolution lifting someone up... :shrug:

[conscious evolution]

170. Its one of those seemingly contradictory things

that works anyways.
I know someone who used the law of gravity as a higher power.Something along the lines of get drunk fall down gravity kicked my ass again. :shrug: I did not quite grasp his concept but it seemed to work for him as he had many years sober.

[datasuspect]

341. God, in the AA sense, can mean only one thing:

that god must be a divine power which has the ability to remove the compulsion to drink.

"no human power could have removed our alcoholism."

Bill W. was heavily inspired by William James and his "Varieties of Religious Experience."

the notion of a deeply moving spiritual experience which delivers the alcoholic from his suffering is copped from James.

prior to the big book, people often "got religion" and it had the same effect as AA.

[yardwork]

57. I think that you misunderstood the OP.

The OP stated that the meeting chair told people that they had to accept Jesus. That is very, very different from the twelve steps' suggestion that people turn their lives over to the God of their understanding, which can mean any god or none.

Some people think of "God" as the knob on the door of the AA meeting hall. Other people think of the group itself as their Higher Power. Mentioning Jesus is really out of line - its bringing outside issues into the meeting and also its dictating to the group, which is frowned on in meetings.

The twelve steps are suggestions, not mandates.

[graywarrior]

60. Excellent.

Thank you for explaining that so nicely

[yardwork]

I still have the fervor of those in early recovery!

[graywarrior]

68. Me too.

My main focus at every meeting is the newcomer. I hear and see meetings through their eyes. And face it, all ove us have only 24 hours of sobriety.

[Common Sense Party]

78. No, I did not misunderstand the OP.

And I specifically mentioned the "Jesus" taboo in my post.

[Alameda]

86. I know Jews, Muslims and Agnostics who have been helped

How one understands Higher Power is personal. IMHO to tie it to Jesus, or any specific religion is a problem.

[SmileyRose]

33. Well, "God" and "Jesus" isn't quite the same thing.

Likely the originators of AA assumed a CHRISTIAN god but there are all sorts of religious traditions that can help people find strength in a healthy way.

I consider myself a christian (small c), not the Sarah Palin kind but the volunteer at the food bank and take in my disabled Uncle kind. I don't really know if Jesus was real or memorex and don't really care. So there are a lot of people who can use the idea of a "higher power" or "higher self" god rather "Jesus" as an avenue of self improvement.

Obviously that avenue would not be appropriate for an agnostic or atheist.

[graywarrior]

41. Well, one guy at the meeting said he didn't know who kept him sober

and he didn't give a fuck. Al he cared about was that going to meetings helped and helping another drunk helped.

[yardwork]

52. Huge difference between "God as you understand him" and Jesus.

AA suggests (the twelve steps are only suggestions) that people in recovery have a Higher Power, but that Higher Power is anybody or anything that each individual wishes.

Telling people in an AA meeting that they must "accept Jesus" is against the tenets of AA. It's bringing outside issues into the discussion.

[varkam]

102. I'm an atheist an a 12-stepper.

Higher power is not necessarily equivalent to Jesus or the god of the bible.

[Leftist Agitator]

206. Please explain how a non-supernatural entity functions as a "higher power".

I'll be waiting.

[varkam]

212. Well, for me...

my higher power has a lot to do with my Group of Drunks and has a lot to do with how I relate to existence. All a higher power means is a power greater than one's self. You don't have to be a theist to recognize that there are many things that are more powerful than the self.

It works for me.

[Leftist Agitator]

224. So if you believe that the self is the only source of truth, and thus, power...

Then how does that fit into your merry AA scheme?

[varkam]

227. Say what now?

If you can point out where I said that "the self is the only source of truth, and thus power" then I'll be happy to answer your question. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to think that you're putting words into my mouth for some reason or another.

Moreover, why are you jumping on me for explaining how recovery works for me?

[Leftist Agitator]

235. No, see, I am a solipsist. I believe that anything external to the mind does not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

It is in fact I who believe that "the self is the only source of truth, and thus power".

So again, how does that fit into your merry l'l AA scheme?

"Moreover, why are you jumping on me for explaining how recovery works for me?"

Because I want you to understand that it was YOU AND YOU ALONE who are responsible for becoming well. Not some mythical higher power who you beg for absolution, or other such nonsense.

In perpetuating the notion that it was a "higher power" that allowed you or anybody else to find sobriety, you're impeding the progress of addiction treatment as a medical science, and implying that reliance upon a "higher power" is necessary in order to quit drinking.

[varkam]

292. Personally, I think solipsism is utter nonsense. But that's me.

And since I think solipsism is utter nonsense, you might as well be saying "How does the fact that I believe in Xenu / The Flying Spaghetti Monster / Santa Clause fit into your merry l'l AA scheme?" Answer: it doesn't. I don't care what you believe, and unless you believe that recovering addicts need to be taken out and shot then I don't imagine it's going to be affecting me in the slightest.

Also, my belief in a higher power has helped me in recovery - but that's also me. I have no problem with medical / psychological models of disease and treatment. Not I (nor should anyone else) claim that 12-step programs are the only path to recovery - indeed, there are many roads to Rome, as they say, and 12-step programs are but one of those roads. Different things work for different people, and this works for me. I really don't understand why my personal experience and belief offends and upsets you so, especially given the notion that you believe that I am essentially some figment of your imagination.

[Dorian Gray]

305. Why would

anybody have to explain to YOU how YOUR beliefs fit into the "merry l'l AA scheme?"

If you don't like it, approve of it, or believe it's an effective way to treat alcoholism, nobody is going to force you to go.

[Kajsa]

310. What you believe in is your business,

what works for others is their business.

Personally, I can't subscribe to Solipsism.

Imho, it offers a very myopic view of the world.

The self is the end all and be all?

Trying swimming against a tidal wave
or holding your ground during an earthquake.

[datasuspect]

342. no human power could have relieved our alcoholism

that means a group of people (human power) is not sufficient to remove the compulsion to drink. only a supernatural entity like the god of abraham can accomplish this.

[varkam]

344. If you say so. eom

[DevonRex]

214. I'll try, if you don't mind... Two is higher than one. It's as simple as that.

When a person goes to AA, they're no longer alone in their journey.

[Leftist Agitator]

225. That makes no sense whatsoever.

[DevonRex]

228. So you don't think that it's more powerful when people join forces and help

each other?

[Leftist Agitator]

240. No, let me clarify.

I don't think that anyone becomes (or stays) sober because they and a bunch of other ex-drunks recount their horror stories of their drunken days to each other with all of the coffee and second hand smoke that they can handle.

Nor do I think that a "higher power" is responsible for returning one to sobriety. People do that 100% by themselves, but the AA dogma refuses to let its adherents believe that fact.

[varkam]

293. So then here's a pretty simple trick for you:

don't go to AA.

If you don't like it, if you think that the "dogma" is counter-productive, then don't go. Simple as that.

And for me, it isn't about horror stories or coffee or smoke - it's about fellowship and the knowledge that the person sitting across from you at the table knows you better than anyone else possibly could even despite being a stranger.

I'm sure you will probably respond by saying that I'm hindering progress, or that I'm stupid or brainwashed or a figment of your imagination (which begs the question - why are you arguing with yourself?) but regardless - 12-step has been the only thing that has had any measure of success for me. Whether or not it worked for you is an entirely different story.

[Kajsa]

311. Jennifer, the concept of a fellowship

is lost on this person.

According to his belief system( which it is- they scream they
don't believe anything) it doesn't exist.

- friend of Bill's here.

:hi:

[DevonRex]

312. I believe you're right. So sad.

The good thing is that drunks will be there to help him no matter what.

:hi:

[Kajsa]

313. Yep!

:hi: :pals:

[Bucky]

316. I struggled with this for a while, too. But it's "higher power" not "higher entity"

For instance the power of the love and well wishes of the people in my life for me to have my shit together is certainly a higher power than my own unhealthy desire to get into shit. If I give my will power over to that love of attaining what is best for me, I am certainly giving myself over to a higher power.

It's a little less superstitious than "putting Jesus in my heart" but basically achieves the same end--stopping the self-defeating behaviors.

[gollygee]

Do you think Jesus is the only potential higher power?

So Jewish people can't go to AA?

[DevonRex]

205. But your higher power is one of your own choosing. It can be

Jesus, it can be the collective goodwill of all the other alcoholics in the room. It can be your pet rock.

Preaching specific theology is definitely frowned upon.

[datasuspect]

339. God (capital G God) is the core of the program of recovery laid out in the book "Alcoholics

Anonymous" or as AA members fondly call it, "the Big Book."

The first 164 pages of the Big Book describe the core of the AA program.

Chapter 4, "We Agnostics" includes some of the following:

"If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.

Lack of power, that was our dilemma. we had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored."

The God mentioned in this excerpt is understood as a living, intercessionary God.

This excerpt is from Chapter 5:

"We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee -- to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him."

Bill W. and his cohorts adhered to some holy roller jive in the peculiar flavor of christian fundamentalism they developed as a panacea for drunks.

[BoneDaddy]

11. She should know better

if she even read the Big Book once.

[nosmokes]

14. every year I ask my home group to consider doing away with the Lord's

prayer and every year I get closer to group conscience that recognizes it's just a bit too'partisan' for some folks tastes and we could easily use something more inclusive. Maybe this will be the year, huh? One can hope!

[graywarrior]

21. There are a lot of our members who will not participate in the Lord's Prayer

They stand off to the side with respect but do not say the prayer.

[Sal Minella]

42. I used to stand in the holding-hands circle and just not say the prayer.

I doubt that anybody ever noticed. Or would have cared if they did.

[graywarrior]

48. Yeah, no one gives a shit really.

And the other thing that is cool is sometimes famous people show up at meetings and no one gives shit. Everyone is on the same level...we all have one day of sobriety that day...that's it. You're a recovering alcoholic...that's it. You are not famous here...you are one of many.

[yardwork]

70. When it was my turn to read the Twelve Steps I used to use the pronoun "she."

Got the old-timers' attention.

O8)

[graywarrior]

104. I love it when that happens

I always say "deliver us from ego..." and that always gets someones attention.

[Justpat]

302. "deliver us from ego"

Ain't that the truth. I'm going to use that sometime.

[Raksha]

122. I never did that, but my Higher Power is female...

Sophia, the Wisdom of God (check out the Book of Proverbs, and also the Gnostic gospels). I let my group know it too--kinda raised a few eyebrows the first time I mentioned her, but they got used to it. There are Pagans in 12-step groups too, and most of the time their Higher Power is the Goddess.

[Critters2]

213. Wow. We've never said the Lord's Prayer in EA.

That would weird me out.

[TrogL]

251. we use "Lord's prayer or prayer of your choice"

...which ends up being fairly confusing as we have a diverse group. Some of the Native Americans use their prayers, some use the Serenity prayer, I'm babbling away in Latin...

[tjwash]

15. Gotta run...I have an AA meeting at olive garden. The subject is circumcision in sobriety.

I love the DU grenades. :rofl:

[conscious evolution]

174. LOL!

[Justpat]

20. Good.

Jesus has no place in an AA meeting.

Those kind of people give AA a bad name.

[BeHereNow]

44. So "God of your own understanding" only applies as long as it's not Jesus?

Some tolerance there...
BHN

[NMDemDist2]

54. no, that wasn't the point

the point was the group leader was telling the OTHER people what they HAD to do.

a big no-no

her beliefs were welcome as her beliefs, but the welcome ended when she felt she had to lay down a rule for others to believe as she did.

[BeHereNow]

61. That is not what the poster I replied to said-

She said Jesus has no place in an AA meeting.
I happen to think God of your own understanding
includes Jesus for many people in AA.
Granted telling others they MUST accept Him
is unacceptable, but then I also think some of things
sponsors tell others they MUST do is unacceptable too.

Let's face it, AA is a bag of mixed nuts.
Literally.

BHN

[graywarrior]

73. We are mixed nuts trying to stay sober...the most important thing we can do for the day

The AA Preamble

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

[BeHereNow]

81. I'm concerned for the woman who was trounced for her Jesus tirade.

Although the group has every right to express it's consciousness
on the matter of her participation in it- it sounds to me like
a big deal was made over yet another lunatic going off-
something I've seen plenty of times.
I like the way the old timers handle scenes like this-
A pat on the head and a keep comin' back.

One of my favorite old timers always used to remind
a group that freaked out over something like this
with the following admonishment-
"We build people up, we don't tear 'em down."

Sorry, but so many of the replies from the AA Nazis on this
thread sound terribly judgmental of this woman.
I wonder who reached out to her with love and acceptance
after the incident?

None of the posters on this thread would have.

Love and tolerance is what keeps people comin' back-
Not judgment and intolerance.
As another old timer I love would say,
Ego will kill a drunk.
Lot's of ego in that room you describe.
Only the ego can be offended by such things you know.
BHN

[NMDemDist2]

83. i would have followed her outside

I don't like seeing people leave meetings upset for whatever reason

I would have talked to her

[BeHereNow]

87. Guess you and I are the only ones who would have.

I hate to see a group gang up on a member for
making a fool out of herself.
Sort of like the bullies at the bar, don't ya think?

BHN

[NMDemDist2]

88. i dunno

sometimes you gotta take your lumps, but you're correct in that an old timer should have followed her out.

at least that's how we always did(do) it.

[graywarrior]

95. Several did

[NMDemDist2]

105. good

I figured you guys did it right

:yourock:

[graywarrior]

109. The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking

If she had been drunk, she would have been asked to be quiet had she spoken up. She just got the AA way and she didn't like it. If and when she shows up at another meeting, she will be welcomed.

[graywarrior]

94. This woman was told at several other meetings where to draw the line

She didn't.

And BTW
No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints.

[DevonRex]

207. We should also have concern for the newcomers who might have

gotten the impression that in order to be in AA, one must be a Christian. The purpose of AA is to help people get and stay sober. The purpose of AA is NOT to "save" people from going to hell, by whatever theology any particular member believes in.

My credo is "Do what you will an' harm none." I would say that this woman could have harmed many newcomers' efforts to get and stay sober. This is life and death in the hear and now.

[TrogL]

254. RRR's are not particularly into love and acceptance

Rarely have I found a Rabid Religious Right willing to change his/her ways.

We've got one fellow who we cannot call upon to read "How it works" because he'll rewrite it turning it into a Christian polemic.

We've got one woman used to ask over and over "How can AA not be a religious program if so many meetings are held in church basements" until I pointed out that the rent's cheap for that much floorspace.

We had another guy who shouted "Hallelujah, Jesus" every couple of minutes during a meeting. He lasted a week then went back out.

Fundamentalist Religion has such a grip on these people it's almost impossible for them to let go. Personally, I treat it as another addiction.

[graywarrior]

256. It totally is another addiction.

Which also pisses off some AA old timers. When someone identifies themselves as just an addict at an AA meeting. I can almost hear the gnashing of teeth.

[NMDemDist2]

76. can't argue that

but we do say "We have a wrench for every nut"

:rofl:

[Justpat]

186. The god of your understanding can include Buddha,

Krishna, Jesus or your ugly old beagle if that is what gets you sober.
But inflicting your personal religious beliefs on anyone in meetings is not acceptable.

Whatever spiritual framework you find that works for you is yours alone and not to be
pushed onto anyone member of the group who are all involved in their own search for
a spirituality that works for them.

In the original post, graywarrior said that the person leading the meeting declared that members needed to allow Jesus into their lives in order to get sober. That is not acceptable policy
in AA. Everyone finds their own personal version of salvation.

I believe the spirituality is a belief in the deity of your choosing and religion is the
particular organization you use to worship that deity.

Why is it so hard for non AA people to accept that we do not push religion on anyone
and that the christian god is but one form of spiritual relationship available to members.

[yardwork]

64. You misunderstand. AA meetings are supposed to stay focused on recovery, not specific religions.

Religion, politics, social issues - they're not supposed to be discussed in AA meetings precisely because they distract from the purpose of the meeting, which is to recover from alcohol and help others recover.

You're not supposed to mention Jesus or Allah or any specific deity or religion.

[graywarrior]

72. We don't bring up Buddha, or any other religeous figure

AA is not religeous. GOD can be anything.

[PassingFair]

323. Didn't you just say that you are led in the "Lord's Prayer" at every meeting?

That IS religious.

If I had a substance abuse problem and
was ordered into, or decided to attend
one of your meetings, I would walk out
too.

It's hard enough for me to stomach the
prayers at democratic functions I go to.

The last democratic convention I attended,
we had to sit through THREE prayers,
Christian, Jewish, and Muslim, just so
no one would feel "left out"...

LOL :rofl:

As an atheist with an ironic sense of
humor, I kind of got a kick out of the
situation.

[graywarrior]

349. I change the words

[pipi_k]

93. God of your understanding can be anyone or anything

as long as you don't try to force it on other people.

AA members are supposed to keep their Higher Powers to themselves, and not preach to others about what constitutes an appropriate Higher Power.

As I pointed out somewhere above...a Higher Power can be anyone or anything...a white bearded man in heaven, an eagle, a sunlit sky, a precious stone, a rabbit's foot, or whatever makes the person happy...as long as the alcoholic doesn't go around thinking that HE is God.

That's the point...

[Justpat]

196. The god of your understanding is not to be shoved onto

anyone else.

So no, Jesus does not have a place at AA meetings. Neither does Allah, Buddha etc.
You can relate to others how your spiritual path has enabled you to stay sober - you
cannot demand that others adhere to your particular belief system.

Too many members of AA have come from organized religions whose dogma and form of
worship were forced on them by their parents. It is the job of those in recovery
to find whatever principle or moral code works for them.

The god of my childhood was thrown overboard in sobriety. I found something else that
worked for me.

But I have complete respect for those who do not want or need some spiritual
entity to keep them sober.

I had a good sponsor in the beginning or my sobriety. I learned from her how to handle
people like the one in the OP and it would be with an acceptance of where that person
was in his/her sobriety and asked them to consider adhering to the principles that had
enabled all of us to get sober and keep the specifics of her religious belief to herself.

[Ian David]

22. Look into these Alcohol recovery programs for atheists...

Rational Recovery Self-Help Meetings
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/rrshm.htm


Rational emotive behaviour therapy
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/depression/rationalemotivebehaviourtherapy_000461.htm

[graywarrior]

24. I like AA

I transcend the GOD stuff. AA is all about acceptance.

[walldude]

28. Bill was no fool. They didn't call it a "higher power" for nothing

I'm not a huge fan of AA, it just wasn't for me but it works for millions. Without the help of Jesus.

[graywarrior]

29. Bill and Dr. Bob tapped into some amazing healing stuff

I can't believe how much chinese philosophy and medicine is wrapped up in AA.

[conscious evolution]

177. It surprised me too,at first.

Then I realized that chinese philosophy is every where.That was when I realized it was not 'chinese' philosophy but universal truths that they just happened to recognize a lot sooner than most civilizations.
I have described the Steps as a form of Taoist internal alchemy that transforms lead into gold,so to speak.

[conscious evolution]

178. It surprised me too,at first

Then I realized that chinese philosophy is every where.That was when I realized it was not 'chinese' philosophy but universal truths that they just happened to recognize a lot sooner than most civilizations.
I have described the Steps as a form of Taoist internal alchemy that transforms lead into gold,so to speak.

[TrogL]

257. Jung had a huge influence on AA

...as did William James (The Varieties of Religious Experience)

[Justpat]

303. The steps are principles that have been around for thousands of years

in one form or another. They are not exclusive to religious practice.

They are tools for living that have been part of humanity's thought system for ages.


They work for me and after twenty eight years of being sober one day at a time I still
use the AA tool kit every day.

I used to attend a step meeting held by an agnostic. He said the steps were a psychiatric
do-it-yourself kit. That works for me.

[proud patriot]

40. and this

http://www.lifering.com/

[TrogL]

269. I'm an athiest and do just fine

But I read about Rational Emotive Therapy years ago and still use it.

[moriah]

23. I like your take on it....

While Jesus did turn water to wine, I never heard anything in the Bible indicate he had a drinking problem.

[graywarrior]

30. Exactly

Which is why he should not be at a meeting.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. Something else that can be said:

"How do you expect an alcoholic who is Jewish to get sober?"

[graywarrior]

36. Seriously

And trust me, I see Jewish people at meetings.

[SmileyRose]

27. Jesus was a wino.

seem like the only thing he ever drank was wine. He was offered water once and turned that into wine.

:evilgrin:

[Bucky]

317. What they don't tell you is that it was an Evian water that he turned into wine

Also, he turned it into a chardonnay, not a Merlot as most biblical accounts would have you think.

[stillcool]

34. She should know not to mess..

with anyone's concept of a higher power. There is nothing that will drive me away from an AA meeting faster than a bible thumper.

[graywarrior]

38. You would appreciate the angst in the room

It was unbelievable. I never witnessed such protection of AA before. The poor woman got slammed.

[proud patriot]

37. Check out Lifering a secular version of AA

My dad is a recovering addict the whole religious flavor of AA
didn't help my dad an atheist .


http://www.lifering.com/ Lifering did though:hi:

[graywarrior]

45. You know why AA really works?

It's one drunk telling another drunk how it was for him/her. It's one drunk supporting another drunk. It's one drunk getting what another drunk is feeling. That's why it works. When I say something at a meeting and see heads nodding, I KNOW there's a roomful of people getting it. THAT helps me and makes me want to help someone else. It's all about helping someone else.

[proud patriot]

49. That's wonderful

did you look at lifering, that is the way they do it too ?
accept there is no giving things over to a higher power .

AA has helped lots of people and that is wonderful , but those
who don't feel they fit in at AA there must be alternatives .

What works for one person doesn't work for everyone. My
dad was at an AA meeting his first and he heard Jesus A lot
in that room .

I'm glad your group is more secular :)

[graywarrior]

56. This is very true.

AA is not the answer for everyone and everyone has the right and obligation to find what works for them.

[aikoaiko]

43. attraction, not promotion.

someone should have reminded her.

[graywarrior]

46. YES!

[NMDemDist2]

51. good

I was at a meeting one time, and the first 4 or 5 guys who got up to the podium were all "my Higher Power who I choose to call Jesus" and quoting "the other big book"

my number got called about then and when I hit the podium I said something like "Shit I thought I came to an AA meeting, not a damned Saturday morning men's bible study" and proceeded to slap the shit out of them.

I was so grateful after the meeting, two newcomers came up to me and three more to my hubby to thank me for my 'share' as they were all ready to walk out.

:evilgrin:

Leave the Jesus and bible shit at church please :hi:

[graywarrior]

62. Man! That's what I said!

In addition to "when I come to an AA meeting, I fully expect the chairperson to be in AA recovery, not bible recovery."

The Jesus people must have sent a memo to start attending AA meetings for converts.

[TrogL]

259. I wouldn't put it past them

I've found Jesus literature left behind at AA meetings and caught somebody handing out little Bibles.

[graywarrior]

261. A captured audience filled with tortured souls ripe for the taking

Hmmm, a new breed of predators them bible thumpers.

[raccoon]

169. Thank you. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

59. That sure seems like quite an invasion of propriety

doesn't it?

[jberryhill]

63. I keep prayin' he'll turn my water into wine

It was, after all, his first miracle.

Heckfire, you should have kept her around and had her lead communion.

Drink ye all of it.

[graywarrior]

65. I can't tell you how many drunk priests I know

[mainegreen]

66. Sounds like your group dealt with it.

Good.


PS: were you cackling when you posted this, know how DU goes silly when AA and god are mentioned? :7

[graywarrior]

74. Of course...and I continue to cackle and will until this thread fades several days from now

[NMDemDist2]

80. .....

:spank:

:evilgrin:

:fistbump:

:rofl:

[rhett o rick]

79. If I had to choose between God and Vodka, I choose Vodka. But that's just me. nm

[NMDemDist2]

121. may your vodka be cold and of the non rot gut variety

:hi:

and I agree, if I had to choose booze or Jesus, I'd still be a drunk :rofl:

[rhett o rick]

150. I am not real particular, Skyy is good, esp cold, and Up. nm

[FloridaJudy]

82. I HATE it when that happens

And it's happened a few times in meetings I've attended. Apparently, this type may have read the Big Book, but it went right over their heads. It's stressed that the Higher Power is of your own choosing, and no one else has the right to dictate what or whom you worship and how, or even that you have to believe in a supernatural entity at all. Some of us call that Higher Power nature - or truth - or beauty - or love - or quantum mechanics.

I always make it a point to stick around after those kind of incidents, and reassure any newcomers that not all of us are like that. I'll point out "Look I'm a Buddhist, and I'm not sure if there's a God at all, but if there is She's a whole lot more complicated than that".

Bloody fundamentalists aren't happy unless they're ruining everything for the rest of us.

[Fly by night]

84. "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; ...

"... does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

That statement is part of the Preamble that is read at the beginning of every AA meeting I've attended for the past 25 years. Maybe the Jebus-freak ought to pay attention at the beginning of the meeting. Or talk to her sponsor, if she has one.

We are having similar problems here in Tennessee with people who identify themselves as members of "Christian" 12-Step groups. Those groups may exist but they are not AA.

Unless a drunk can find something outside themselves that they believe is greater than themselves, they are unlikely to get and stay sober. For some, that is their old time religion; for others, it's the AA fellowship itself. For me, It is Mother Nature, the life force, the Great Mystery. It sometimes makes peope uncomfortable when I refer to my Higher Power as "She" in meetings, but they get over it pretty quick. It also validates the similar beliefs of many fellow AAers who are not at all interested in any form of organized religion.

BTW, although I've been around AA for 25 years, I have only been continuously sober for 14 years, 10 months and 2 days (but who's counting.) It took that long for me to find something to believe in besides myself. There's no denying the life force -- everyone knows what it is when they see it but no one can explain it. Besides, I am always in the presence of other living things, so my Higher Power is not distant, theoretical or dependent on faith. If IT were, this drunk would still be drinking.

We get to pick Higher Powers of our own understanding. Anyone who doesn't know that needs to suit up, show up and shut up -- maybe then they'll learn something that will save their own lives and the lives of anyone else who needs to be able to say, when offered the next drink, "Thanks, but no. I've had enough."

At the very least, that woman shouldn't be chairing an AA meeting until she knows more about the program, its steps and traditions; in short, how it works (and always has).

(Edited to show I can take suggestions from other drunks and, when I'm wrong, can promptly admit (or correct) it. Thanks, AzDem.)

[NMDemDist2]

91. check your PM n/t

[graywarrior]

96. This person claims to have been sober for 18 months

We live in a small town where we know all our members. We have never seen her at a meeting even tho she lives here. She does not drive so she probably does not go to out of town meetings. She has been seen standing in traffic with Jesus signs. She has other issues. She will not listen or follow AA suggestions. She is on a mission to convert. That does not work in AA.

[NMDemDist2]

108. we actually had to call the cops on some hard core Jesus pushers one day

they came in and started telling us we had to accept Jesus and all that stuff, we thanked them and asked them to be quiet so others could speak, but they just stood up and started yelling at us all.

we ended up calling the cops to have them ejected

so, yeah, I've been there......

:hug:

[raccoon]

171. That woman shouldn't be chairing an AA meeting until she gets her meds straightened out.

She sounds bat guano crazy.

[sarcasmo]

90. Good for the room to speak up and not take it from the Jesus pusher.

[kwassa]

99. I came to believe in God because of 12-step meetings

and living and working the program. I don't believe in God as a being, but as just that, a higher power. The 12-steps are a fairly rigorous spiritual path.

I really hate this thread, I certainly don't recognize the meetings talked about here.

The idea that God or Jesus or any other religious figure is taboo in 12-step ignores the source of the program. A higher power can be anything, but a higher power is just that, not a toaster, or a dog, or a banana peel.

A higher power is not only important, it is THE most important concept. The fellowship of the room on the same path is important, but without the belief that there is something greater than yourself, there is no understanding, and no recovery.

Just my view on this subject.

[varkam]

106. Well...

I've known people whose HP started out being a rock - something small that they could build on when they had no sense of spirituality in the beginning.

I think that point is that the path should be wide enough for anyone who wishes to walk it. I personally don't care if people mention Jesus when they check in, just so long as they don't cross the line into proselytizing which can make others (such as myself) feel uncomfortable.

[graywarrior]

110. The room I was in was sweating bullets

AADD was flying all over the place

[NMDemDist2]

111. AADD??

what's that?

is that what the kids are calling it these days??? :hide:

[graywarrior]

112. Adult Attention Deficit Disorder

AA members were there expecting to hear one thing and ended up hearing something else. It completely threw us. I never saw so many people go to the bathroom all at once or get up for coffee at the same time. It was really really uncomfortable.

[NMDemDist2]

113. and those were the old timers LOL

the poor newcomers were probably wishing the floor would open up and swallow them

:hug:

[graywarrior]

114. Newcomers established at close relationship with the floor

and exhibited lots of shallow breathing.

[FloridaJudy]

271. I know a woman whose HP is Ozzie Osburne

She says that every time she has the urge to take a drink or a drug, she turns it over to old Ozzie, and he does it for her.

It sounds weird to me (what's she going to do if he dies?), but it's kept her sober for over ten years.

Me, I figure I drank my quota of booze for this incarnation, and am putting it off until the next.

With my luck I'll come back as a Mormon.

[graywarrior]

107. In order for some people to get to that level, they must be allowed to

just hear the simple message on how to stay sober. Eventually, if you stick around long enough, you do come to understand the higher power concept. But newcomers should not be confused about what AA is there for. To help them stop drinking. I remember being told that I had no business thinking. Just stay sober today, they told me. Spirituality, if it's gonna happen, will, in time and time takes time.

[RedCappedBandit]

124. .

[graywarrior]

127. I've heard that argument before.

I usually tell the arguer they need to go out and drink some more.

[RedCappedBandit]

129. Why?

[graywarrior]

133. Because they need to.

Sometimes they have to hit bottom. Hitting bottom is a path in every story of success.

[NMDemDist2]

128. no where in this thread has it been classed as "the only path to recovery"

other programs were mentioned and supported with respect.

in fact this whole thread has been fun and respectful until you showed up.

thank for playing :hi:

[RedCappedBandit]

130. You're right

I shouldn't have replied. It hasn't been implied in this thread, but has in my life. I really don't want to get into an argument about this, but I felt the need to share my opinion :shrug:

[graywarrior]

134. No problem

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

136. I'm sorry that's been your experience

truly.

all I know is that I hate religion, I 'knew' AA wouldn't work for me when I read those impossible 12 steps the first time.

but here I am, a few weeks off 17 years clean and sober. and still showing up at AA and still 'practicing these principles in all my affairs'

I think that is the key for me. the Principles of AA.

Honesty

Hope

Faith (and NOT the religious kind)

Courage

Integrity

Willingness

Humility

Brotherly Love

Justice

Perseverance

Spirituality (and NOT the religious kind)

Service



seems like a good way to live for me and it explains why I'm a Liberal too.

YMMV

[graywarrior]

138. Yeah, it's the principles

And the 12 traditions...so awesome!

[RedCappedBandit]

139. Fo Sho

I think those are values we can all live with :D
Congratulations on your sobriety.
Sometimes I forget that here on this site, we're all liberals at heart. (Well, most of us :P )
And thanks. a lil understanding goes a long way.

[graywarrior]

140. We're all liberals recovering from the damage done by a drunk at the helm

Have a good night, friend!

[NMDemDist2]

141. .....

:hug:

[harun]

165. Good for you. I agree this is a horrible thread.

[Leftist Agitator]

217. Amen.

[DevonRex]

209. I'm so glad you found your spirituality through AA.

God is not taboo at AA. But preaching specific religions is.

So many don't believe in anything when they go to their first meeting. It's hard for them to envision not drinking, much less that some higher power will help them do it. And for those newcomers, it is SO important not to chase them away by preaching a specific religion.

Why chase away jews and muslims, pagans and buddhists? Or any other religion?

[Nevernose]

115. For the record, atheists CAN have a higher power.

Even if they recognize it (them?) as the id and the superego, or whatever one chooses to refer to our respective subconscious desires.

While the 12 step program was not the best route for me, it does work for some people. Like many diseases, addiction responds differently for different people according to the stimuli.

[graywarrior]

116. Strangely enough, AA seems to work for recovering catholics

We shun the religeous part of it, but we also kinda dig it.

[Nevernose]

118. Now if you can find a 12 step program for Catholicism...

Now if you can find a 12 step program for Catholicism, you're all set! :D

[graywarrior]

119. No kidding, huh?

We're sicker than the rest.

[Justpat]

188. I had one friend who always introduced himself

as Steve, the alcoholic and recovering Catholic.

I also remember being at a meeting once where a young girl opened her talk at an open
meeting by saying that she was institutionalized at an early age - she was sent to
Catholic school.

Having been brought up by two alcoholics who were rabid catholics, I could relate.

[RedCappedBandit]

125. I hear this a lot

For me, however, and plenty of other people, doing so involves trying to compromise with a belief system which, deep down, you don't believe in. I do not understand "spirituality" and never will. It seems entirely ludicrious that one would pretend they're powerless over their addiction. As an outsider looking in, I see a bunch of extremely strong willed people helping themselves get over their problems, using "spirituality" as a crutch. Obviously, they don't see it that way, and I definitely respect that.
Just offering my view.

[graywarrior]

131. All it really is is one drunk helping another by identifying their struggle

with alcohol. That, in itself, can be a spiritual experience...when you realize you are not alone, that you have someone who will listen and support you. That is really what AA is. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Nevernose]

142. Didn't work for me, either.

I was just sayin' is all.

For me all it took was a weekend in jail...

:evilgrin:

[NMDemDist2]

144. ROFL

it takes what it takes.

a couple weekends in jail didn't do the trick for me, my hat's off to you!

[NMDemDist2]

145. "extremely strong willed people"

:rofl:

what we are, to a large extent, are egomaniacs with an inferiority complex.

:evilgrin:

edit to add, as for as understanding spirituality, you don't understand it, you live your way into it.

I thought I had to understand too, before I could 'get it' but it was explained to me and turned out that way through my experience, was that that whole spirituality thing came naturally about the time I got to that step, which is number 11 of 12. It was WAY late in the game before I 'got' it.

You can't think your way into a new way of living, you live your way into a new way of thinking. but again, YMMV

[RedCappedBandit]

147. Well, yeah,

That just about sums me up.
But if I can't get over that at some point, I'm screwn!
You know what I'm tryin to say :P

[NMDemDist2]

148. I do and see my edit

:pals:

hang in there Bandit :hi:

[TrogL]

263. For someone claiming not wanting to start a fight...

...you're using a lot of fightin' words eg. "crutch", "ludicrous", "pretend"

I'd hardly call that "respect".

[AngryOldDem]

135. I thought AA defined "higher power" as whatever the individual conceptualized it to be.

And I'm glad she was run out of the room.

[graywarrior]

137. It is

And some of us never ever get to that. But AA is sacred to a lot of people and out of respect for it, she should have not brought her Jesus belief into the room.

[datasuspect]

343. the aa meeting culture defines it this way

the program of recovery, as listed in the first 164 pages of the big book does not.

[RetroLounge]

146. Damn, I want to come to your meetings...

They sound like fun.

We have a pretty big homegroup, close to 100 people. When the Jesus thumpers show up, as they always do eventually, they are politely spoken to in private.

If you are here to convert people to your religion, then you can P.F.O. (please fuck off).

If they continue, they get asked politely to stop or leave.

In break off groups, if they try to do their evangelizing for jesus, I nicely tell them to shut the fuck up.

They usually go away or drink, or both.

:loveya:

RL

[graywarrior]

157. HA! Most of our members moved here from MA

We're a rowdy bunch.

[RetroLounge]

280. Ah, MassAholics

:hi:

RL

[graywarrior]

291. I'm using that at my meeting tomorrow

[earth mom]

151. Grr-I don't blame people for being pissed off. nt

[EFerrari]

153. People get screwy when they're bored.

lol

[saltpoint]

156. Saviors Who Use

You know -- the water-into-wine thing.

Higher power figures appear to work for some folks. They don't work for other folks.

AA or not, the woman who chaired that meeting needs to brush up on her Constitution.

[graywarrior]

158. Most people in AA don't have a clue about the Traditions.

[saltpoint]

184. I expect you're right.

[gollygee]

161. Just mentioning Jesus wouldn't bother me

Like if someone said that SHE had accepted Jesus as her higher power and what a difference it had made for her in her work - well I'd just feel glad she'd found something that worked for her and that would be that.

But to say that *I* had to accept Jesus - that would make me feel unwelcome and it would make me not want to come back.

[raccoon]

164. That woman was WAY out of line.

I was surprised that this happened in NH. Who knows.

I wouldn't like that either, one little bit.

[graywarrior]

167. Live free or die

Or slow suicide yourself on the installment plan

[Kalyke]

172. Not to start a fight, but, uhhhh.... you do realize the AA 12 step program is rooted in God, right?

THE TWELVE STEPS
OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
* We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
* Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
* Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
* Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
* Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
* Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
* Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
* Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
* Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
* Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
* Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
* Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Those are the original steps. Now, maybe I'm missing something, but I always thought that everyone who participated in the 12-step program knew they were participating in a God-based recovery program. That said, yes, Jesus isn't the only way to God (for Muslims and Jews, for example), but I simply wouldn't think it would be unheard of at a 12-Step AA meeting.

:shrug:

P.S. BTW, keep up the good work and strength in your recovery.

[graywarrior]

173. A God of your understanding. Jesus is NOT part of the equation

[kwassa]

208. What if Jesus is your understanding of God?

That is not allowed?

[moriah]

229. Jesus may be her understanding of God, but to say...

... that it should be everyone's, when the purpose of the group is not to save souls but to help people gain and continue in sobriety and sanity...

It crosses a line and is not helpful to everyone's recovery.

My experience with the Al-Anon family groups is mainly through Alateen and ACoA. Suggesting that people should have a specific definition of a Higher Power can drive people away from the very good things that the programs can offer.

[gollygee]

175. You're aware that "Jesus" and "God" aren't equivalent to every person, right?

Even lots of very religious people don't make them equivalent.

[Kalyke]

180. I just addressed that on an edit.

My point is that I wouldn't expect Jesus' name to be unheard of in an AA meeting.

[gollygee]

181. No, but she didn't just mention him, she said EVERYONE had to accept him

It's one thing to say, "This is what worked for me" and another thing to say, "This is what you have to do."

[Kalyke]

182. Well, I guess I could say everyone should wear red, but that

doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me. :)

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong, but it just sounded like this woman was berated a bit too much (particularly since she may be a bit vulnerable, depending up whatever stage she's at). A simple, "That worked for you, but that's not my belief and opinion," probably would have shut her up. I don't know. I wasn't there.

[graywarrior]

187. Three people raised their hands and explained that to her

It just gave her more juice to throw Jesus at us. She started to escalate and so she was shut down. No one wanted her to run out of the room...that was her choice. Several people followed her out into the parking lot. I have no idea what happened there.

AA people are not cruel and are especially helpful to newcomers, which she is even tho she told us she had been sober for 18 months. If she had tried that at a meeting down in Lynn where I got sober, she would have been yelled at...told to shut the fuck up, take the cotton out of her ears and put it in her mouth, and "you know shit! Shut up and listen".

[Kalyke]

189. OK... that I didn't know.

Just conversing.

There are so many "Christians are stupid" threads on DU, it's hard to acertain which are legitimate complaints and which are DUers trying to tell those of us who are Christians that we're idiots because we believe in a higher power.

Thanks for the more thorough explanation.

And, in case you didn't see my edit above: congratulations and good luck on your recovery.

[graywarrior]

193. It's cool, man. Not trying to bash christians, just relay info about people who

don't understand AA and what it's for. Our group that night actually had 3 other Jesus people who attend our meetings regularly. They've never tried to push their beliefs on anyone else.

[graywarrior]

183. Exactly! Plus, you never EVER tell a recovering drunk what to do.

You SUGGEST.

[populistdriven]

176. this guy got chaired when he mentioned jesus (video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rds_ljcVn-o

[graywarrior]

179. Bwhahahahahahahah! OMG, our meeting almost turned into that!

[Justpat]

190. LOL. n/t

[stlsaxman]

194. She chaired the meeting???

Guess she missed the part of "God, as we understood Him"...

I shouldn't laugh but here goes-

:rofl:

[graywarrior]

198. The guy who picks the chair person kinda fucked up

That's another issue. Sometimes we have unguided people opening meetings...they end up on power trips or they half heartedly take care of things.

[stlsaxman]

201. yeah that can happen, and each group is autonomous...

in my first home group on of the by-laws was "no chairs w/ under 6 months sobriety" and that helped things stay stable.

graywarrior- thanks so much for the OP, much has been said that i needed to hear. i've been at it all morning. a good thread all around.

[graywarrior]

238. You're welcome

I just got back from a meeting. They're still talking about it.

[Leftist Agitator]

203. What did you expect? It's an AA meeting for crying out loud!

Going to one of those brainwashing sessions was your first mistake.

[Critters2]

215. Brainwashing?

:wtf:

[Leftist Agitator]

226. AA preaches voluntary submission to a higher power.

12 steppers don't change for the better because of their own inner srength and free will, the "higher power" changes them when they submit to it and "humbly ask to have their shortcomings removed".

Sounds like brainwashing to me!

[graywarrior]

290. Do you have an alcohol problem?

[Leftist Agitator]

300. Are you a cult member?

:shrug:

[graywarrior]

301. Ha ha ha ha ha ha

If you knew me, you'd know I'm the very last person to belong to a cult. Hell, I told AMWAY people to take their born-again soap and stuff it up their fucking asses.

[Justpat]

306. .

:applause:

[TrogL]

266. I see one of the "AA is a cult" cult has shown up

C'mon, post your link to your website and get it over with.

[Leftist Agitator]

276. Well, AA *does* share many characteristics with cults...

But I have no idea what "website" you are referring to.

And please, don't let your membership in a cult-like organization blind you to the fact that it is just such a thing.

Scientologists don't think that their organization is a cult either.

[TrogL]

294. You've certainly got the lingo down pat

...calling us "steppers" and whatnot. You appear to all be quoting from the same source.

The whole "AA is a cult" thing is a straw-man attack. There are plenty of cults that are not destructive. I'd call DU a cult. Certainly one has sprung up around Obama.

[Fly by night]

278. No... just a practicing alcoholic who will continue to ridicule recovery even if it kills her.

Hi there, Skypuddle.

Still drinking 5-20 drinks a day?

I'm still waiting on you to respond to the PM I sent you -- now what's it been -- four months since your last anti-AA rant.

You asked me to write you back then. I did.

Where you been?

Can you hear me now?

[Leftist Agitator]

284. Well, I'm on numero diez right now there, chief.

It's going to be many more than that by the time that you get back to me there, boss.

So what exactly is it that is so very threatning to you, what with having a woman drinker who is A-OK with her life?

Does it threaten your masculinity somehow?

Because I cannot see what possible stake you would have in trying to ridicule me for my alcohol consumption.

Oh, and fuck your PM. You made a wonderful feint at being, um, "heartfelt", but your snide tone shone through like a beacon.

Am I still drinking 5-20 drinks a day?

Yep! Most of the time, it's toward the high end of that range.

So, do tell, how does relinquishing your free will to an amorphous "higher power" make you well again?

Your unsubtle attempt at converting me to the ranks of the "booze-is-bad-m'kay" crowd failed, but miserably.

In Vino, Veritas.

What truth do you have, what truth do you know, that you can impart to we lowers, O wise one?

I'll be waiting with drink in hand for your answer.

[Fly by night]

288. Thanks for helping keep me sober today.

Really.

If you thought the PM from me (that you asked for) was snide or anything else, you were free to respond. But no, I heard nothing back at all. Again, you asked to hear from me -- I didn't foist anything on you that wasn't invited. I wouldn't have minded hearing anything from you -- most of it would likely have been similar to things we've all heard. I can take it -- I am comfortable in my own skin. Try it, you'll like it.

The drama queen with the Ole Miss mating call ("Oh look at me, I'm SOO drunk!!") -- Goddess, I remember drinking with some of y'all in my growing up escorting bored Delta debutante days in late 60s Mississippi.

We will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it.

We also will grow out of it, by the grace of the Great Mystery.

Have a good one, darlin'. Groundhog Day, that is. One damp and doleful day after another.

Better you than me. Really.

[TrogL]

296. AA has no interest in someone who isn't ready to quit

I've kicked them out of meetings as a waste of time, seating space and coffee.

[Dorian Gray]

308. So

alcohol appears to be your higher power.

[DevonRex]

319. If you have no interest in AA then AA has no interest in you. AA does

not recruit.

There are lots of recovery programs out there, should you ever desire to quit drinking.

The only question I have is why are you participating in this thread if you're perfectly healthy and perfectly happy with drinking 5 to 20 drinks a day?

[Leftist Agitator]

320. I am participating in this thread because AA is, for all intents and purposes, a cult.

I'm spreading awareness that AA is hardly the benevolent entity that the 12 steppers would have one believe.

[graywarrior]

350. Good luck with that.

You do know that is you scratch the surface most of us can go nuclear, right?

[Dorian Gray]

351. You keep saying it's a cult

but you haven't once stated how it is malevolent.

[Dorian Gray]

307. Ah

I see now....

You hate AA because it might actually help people recover from alcoholism.

:eyes:

[Leftist Agitator]

321. I hate AA because it brainwashes people into thinking that they are...

"Powerless over alcohol"

That is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

I also hate AA because it refuses to acknowledge that people ultimately get sober on their own, not because of the divine intervention of some mythical "higher power". AA promotes helplessness, and slavish reliance on the ephemeral whims of a "higher power".

[Dorian Gray]

352. How is it bullshit?

For many people, it's an approach that works. Alcohol becomes the most important thing in their lives. They desire it to the detriment of all around them.

My husband, who has stopped drinking himself for two years, has attended some AA meetings and also goes to a counsellor.

We have friends who are of the same opinion that you are when it concerns AA, but, honestly, I feel that they are more threatened about losing their drinking buddy than they are about my husband's recovery from his addiction. That's my honest opinion about the AA naysayers. I respect anybody's right to find a recovery approach that works for them, but the only people I see (in my personal life) railing against AA are those who are threatened by how it might affect their choices.

[Vinca]

210. Why can't you accept the Great Pumpkin as a higher power?

I never have understood the "higher power" stuff, but AA sure helped save my brother's life so credit where credit is due.

[DevonRex]

218. For many, many people in AA, the higher power is simply the

fact that one drunk is helping another drunk and that they have somebody they can call and ask questions, somebody who understands. It's a difficult road to walk alone.

[Arugula Latte]

231. The Great Pumpkin? ... That is just ridiculous!

Everyone knows that The Great Rutabaga reigns supreme.

[TrogL]

268. That's entirely workable - I've heard stranger

[Critters2]

211. My EA meeting has two religious professionals, myself and a nun.

Even given that we talk about God for a living, we've found it possible to keep that specificity to a minimum in meetings, and to be respectful of those with other views. If we can do it, surely to God, everyone can do it. If they make the effort.

[DevonRex]

216. My mind must be kind of foggy today. What is EA?

[Critters2]

230. Emotions Anonymous, for depression, anxiety, anger, etc. nt

[DevonRex]

234. Wow. I didn't even know that existed. Thank you.

I wonder... Would that benefit someone with chronic health issues and the resulting depression?

[Critters2]

236. It might. Can't say for sure.

You can find out more at http://www.emotionsanonymous.org

There's a meeting locator. If your health problems make it hard for you to get out, there are internet groups and phone meetings. Use the meeting locator (click on "find a meeting") and type in "internet" or "phone" where it asks you to type in a country.

Let me know if you want more info.

[DevonRex]

239. Thank you very, very much. :)

[Critters2]

244. You're welcome! Good luck!

:hi:

[4_TN_TITANS]

220. 'Christ off trailer hitch, back on bottle'

News at 10:00

[southernyankeebelle]

221. Well why did hell brake lose?

The 12 step meeting program is based on a higher power of Jesus. I tried it for my weight. It depressed me more and I left the group. I still believe in god but I don't do group think. I went with a friend a couple of times to her bible reading class. Didn't like that either. I thought to myself what makes these gals expert on anything. Like I said I don't do group think. I stay home and pray directly to the man. He answers or he doesn't. He might be to busy that day. Group think has a habit of bringing it outside of the circle. If you disagree with someone than you feel uncomfortable.

[graywarrior]

242. 12 stop programs are NOT BASED ON THE HIGHER POWER OF JESUS!

WTF are you talking about?

[librechik]

223. I thought Christian faith was an essential part of AA

but you can request the non-religious type of meeting, which do happen in some cities.

That's good for me to hear, though, because Jesus babblers will turn me right off any meeting or get together. I may start recommending AA again.

[DevonRex]

232. No, it's absolutely NOT part of it. For many in AA, their higher

power is the power of 1 person helping another person.

[graywarrior]

243. No way

Most of us are spiritual agnostics.

[Arugula Latte]

233. Too bad, but it's encouraging to me that the people didn't just sit passively for the Jesus babble.

I'm glad when people speak out when religious nonsense is imposed.

[DevonRex]

237. I really hate to think of the newcomers who might have been

frightened away. Alcoholism is a matter of life and death.

[Leftist Agitator]

285. "Alcoholism is a matter of life and death."

LIFE is a matter of life and death.

You lose. NEXT!

[TrogL]

295. So how long do you think your liver, esophagus and other organs are going to hold out?

One of the reasons I had to quit was 'cause my guts were rotting from the inside out.

[DevonRex]

315. I truly hope you never get to the point that drinking just one more drink

kills you. I truly hope you never get to the point that drinking just one more drink kills someone else as you drive home when you're too drunk to even walk. I truly hope that you never drink so much that you pass out while smoking or cooking and burn your house down around yourself and your family.

I truly hope that your vital organs remain healthy. I truly hope that your loved ones keep loving you.

When you realize that alcoholism is a matter of life and death, other drunks will be there to help you.

[Bolo Boffin]

246. Don't AA members have a term for people who are busy diagnosing other people's alcoholism?

I can't recall it right now, but that's essentially what the woman was doing.

[graywarrior]

250. Taking someone's inventory.

We scream about it all the time but we do it every damn day!

[Bolo Boffin]

255. That's it.

And it's something that AA members don't have a monopoly on! :)

[graywarrior]

264. Hell no! Obama is getting his share of it now in GD-P LOL!

[TrogL]

248. My group knows if they bring up Jebus, I'll go off on a rant about Jungian archetypes

[graywarrior]

252. I once brought up the correlation between chinese medicine's belief about

anger and the liver and the virtue of the liver being benevolence and human kindness and AA's idea about helping another drunk when you want to self medicate and no one raised their hand after I finished for a full 2 minutes. I still hear about that one.

[NancyG]

249. Unitarian Universalist Church in Chicago

in the 70s held AAAA meetings. Atheist Agnostic AA. May still have them.

I just lost a sister-in-law to alcoholism. Every time we thought THAT had to be her bottom, it wasn't.

[graywarrior]

253. Sorry to hear that.

Some people don't have a bottom til they die. Alcoholism is serious. It takes and takes and takes til there's nothing left.

[NancyG]

258. Yes, that was her bottom.

Had to attend AA 3x per week for a DUI and we found after her death she called it the Mickey Mouse Club. It's sad. We had hoped she would find it a personal support group for her after rehab.

[graywarrior]

260. Giving up the one friend you have that gets you through your day is so frightening

that death seems easier.

[NancyG]

265. It wasn't active suicide,

just the slow version that took years to complete. Blind in ICU with many many serious medical issues.

And the Higher Power thing was her excuse for a long time before she was forced to go to AA.

[graywarrior]

267. Suicide on the installment plan

Walk around dead until it finally happens. Man, it's so sad.

[moriah]

326. My father still hasn't found his bottom... not even that one.

Of course, they expected him to find that particular bottom 10 years ago. Alcohol isn't his only problem, he's got a whole lot of other demons. He named me after one of them, and that is the one that will eventually kill him -- he shared needles, was dxed with HIV when I was 12.

They didn't think he would live to see me see 18 -- I'm 28.

As I said, my experience with the Program is from the Alateen/ACoA perspective.

What I learned there is the only thing that has kept me sane over the years. I didn't cause him to drink/drug, I can't change him, and I can't control him. I can love him, though.

[graywarrior]

327. .

:hug:

[RetroLounge]

281. I attended one of those back in 1991

It was a fun rowdy bunch of drunks...

RL

[NancyG]

289. I had moved from Chicago by then.

2U was a wonderful group of friends for me in the 70s and 80s.

[Dorian Gray]

309. I'm sorry Nancy

I have a sis-in-law who is dealing with alcoholism, too. She's been in and out of the hospital with Chronic pancreatitis, and she almost died last time she was there. You'd think that would be a bottom.

Nope.

[graywarrior]

262. So I'm heading out to do a commitment in Dover

I'll bring up this thread as part of my recovery process.






Kidding.

[FloridaJudy]

274. That's actually not a bad idea

Proves that we AA members aren't a monolithic Cult that insists on a single Higher Power. We've all found our own ways of staying sober, and for most - but by no means all - of us that includes some sort of spiritual practice.

Oh yeah, and that we don't knock anyone else's way of getting sober, as long as he or she doesn't insist that's the only way to do it.

[kwassa]

272. Some of the Christian practices in AA history.

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=287

Frequently Asked Questions About A.A.'s History

Q. What are the origins of the Serenity Prayer?

A. It was debated for years who wrote the Serenity Prayer, and its origins are still somewhat murky, but it seems most likely to have been written by Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr, a well-known theologian who served for many years as Dean and Professor of Applied Christianity at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City.

............................................

Q. What is the history behind reading The Lord’s Prayer at meetings?

A. It is mentioned in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers that the prayer was used from the very beginning in the Fellowship, at least as early as 1938 and 1939. In those days there was no AA literature, so the early groups relied heavily on existing prayers, and on the Bible and Oxford Group literature, for inspiration and guidance.
Bill W. commented several times in his correspondence about the early use of the Lord’s Prayer. He wrote a letter to a member in 1959 in which he stated:

“This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in A.A. Comes of Age what the connection of these people with A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.”

Bill also wrote the following in a 1955 letter:

“Of course there are always those who seem to be offended by the introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also it is sometimes complained that the Lord’s Prayer is a Christian document. Nevertheless, this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the argument of its Christian origin seems to be a little far-fetched. It is also true that most AA’s believe in some kind of god and that communication and strength is obtainable through his grace. Since this is the general consensus, it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord’s Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely hiding ‘our light under a bushel.’
However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join him in the Lord’s Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.”

[TrogL]

273. Not all groups use either prayer

...especially if there's been controversy or some members have been particularly harmed by religion.

Two groups here open with the Responsibility Pledge and end with the Serenity prayer.

The rest enjoin people to "join in the Lord's Prayer or prayer of your choice".

[FloridaJudy]

282. I personally get creeped out by the Lord's Prayer

I don't usually stick around AA groups that insist upon it for more than a few meetings. When I do, I just hold hands and silently recite the Quan Yin mantra.

Fortunately, I live in a place that's big enough to have several AA groups that accomodate us heathens.

[CraftyGal]

286. Don't forget that we also got Intergroup to do the ...

change the "Lord's Prayer" to "Lord's Prayer or Prayer of Your Choice" at our request. For those that don't know, Intergroup is the body that helps to keep AA running at the local level. They help with running central office, 12 step work, communications and technologies, working with the individual groups and other areas.

CraftyGal

[TrogL]

298. Yeah,and that was quite the battle

including the idiot who said "what will that sound like, everybody saying different things at once".

[Bucky]

318. Interesting. I went to a group using the Lord's Prayer instead of the serenity prayer to close

I wasn't a Christian and didn't subscribe to the theology that goes behind the Lord's Prayer, but I didn't get a bug up my ass about reciting a prayer of personal encouragement in a group that existed to personally encourage us to live saner, healthier lives. The fact that it was a Christian document (or, technically, Jewish document) didn't preclude me from "taking from it what I could and leaving the rest."

The meetings helped me and the prayer helped the meetings to work -- why argue with success?

[Joe Chi Minh]

283. I know you have a particular problem in the US with people who

"worship God with their lips, but their hearts are far from" Him; who worship money and don't understand that "love is the fulness of the Law"; that it's not everyone who calls out, "Lord, Lord" who will impress favourably God on Judgment Day, but I still find it puzzling when people seem to blame Christ for those people.

He was at home with people who weren't viewed as particularly respectable by the religious Establishment of the day, the Scribes and Pharisees, who were formally religious and clearly right-wing in their love of money - the Establishment, in fact. He spent a lot of his time and effort holding up the idolatrous Samaritans, the pagans, the tax-collectors as examples to the religious leaders of elementary decency, indeed, in the sense of their humility, of religious sensitivity. He just always comes across to me as the most regular guy you could want to meet. Why confuse him with some of his more confused children - and some plain "wrong'uns", inside institutional Churches. He didn't exactly speak too highly of the Synagogue of his day. But maybe I answered my own question in my first sentence.

[CraftyGal]

287. Thank you, that is exactly how understood Christ to be...

not this unforgiving person that everyone makes him out to be.

CraftyGal

[happychatter]

299. you've never seen this before?

it happens periodically everywhere

some knucklehead AAer gets saved and decides everyone else should too

it's good though

They draw some focus, then have their awareness pulled up sharply... and everything settles back down

People that confront the person in an unkind way, have the opportunity to examine their own, unresolved resentments that motivated them (rather than kindly explain AA is not a forum for sectarian evangelism... calling the offending party everything but a child of god)

And, the person that drew the heat... gets to decide whether or not they can check their "Great Commission" at the door in AA, or risk their recovery relying strictly on church

everybody grows and changes and wins

I will say though

I had NO idea there were so many AAers on DU... you're coming out of the wood work

If I had less than eight years sober, I'd blame George Bush... oh, I know.

The Bush Administration was a bottom... an emotional train wreck that landed you in a chair with some cranky old timer yarfing at ya.

hmmmm... it's all theater... that's my two cents

[FloridaJudy]

347. We've got a forum here for those in recovery

You don't have to be in AA to post, though most of us are working some sort of program.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=336

[Bucky]

314. I'm pretty sure proselytizing is a violation of the rules of most 12 step programs

Jesús who, by the way?

[graywarrior]

324. Jesusfucking Christ

[Joe Chi Minh]

331. What if Jesus will want you for a sunbeam? Will you insult him to his face? He

speaks very highly of you.

[graywarrior]

334. Seriously?

Does he like me new haircut, or did he like it the way I had it before? Is he dating anyone?

[Joe Chi Minh]

338. Ah, now that's the trick. You've fallen for it. You'll have to ask him!

He did tell me which he preferred, but you've been a naughty girl, so I'm not telling you.

[graywarrior]

345. Fine!

I'll email him

[Joe Chi Minh]

354. That's a bit impersonal... Anyway, he told me he'd like to see you in a natty little beret

(a real felt job, not a knitted one), set at a slightly jaunty angle.

Tell Jesus I was asking after him, will you? I asked a very worked-up "fundie" type on Guardian Talk to tell him, but he never did.
But whatever I said, our friend would always argue the toss with me in the most incredible ways.

I don't know if he was a common or garden "fundie", or some other kind of "queer b*****d", as sergeants in our army are wont to call anyone who isn't a Roman Catholic" or C of E. Maybe he was a Plymouth Brethren or some other such outlier.

"C of E on the left, Roman Candles on the right! Queer b*****s go and stand over there!" Political correctness was never one of our sergeants strong suits.

[graywarrior]

325. OMG, Jesus does belong in AA!

[carlyhippy]

330. ....stands away from this thread awaiting lightning bolt strike........

heatherns! the 7 plagues shalt cometh forth shortly! :evilgrin:

[graywarrior]

332. LOL

[rucky]

336. What a difference one pronoun makes.

If she had just said "I" instead of "we" need to accept Jesus...

[rug]

337. When I realized I wasn't a higher power, it began to stick.

[graywarrior]

346. Heard at my meeting tonight

Don't drink. And don't kill yourself.

[johnlucas]

353. The moral of the tale is: Never Become A Drunk

That way you never have to put up with proselytizers pushing their religion on you in supposed rehabilitation groups.

I haven't followed religion since I was 15 but understand that as bad as this world gets sometimes why some subscribe to religions. I also see why some are repelled by religions. It makes no nevermind to me either way.

A lot of these social help groups came out of Christian movements. The YMCA—The Young Men's Christian Association, The Salvation Army, Boys Town, Goodwill Industries, United Way, Habitat for Humanity, and Alcoholics Anonymous.

Things to derive from this knowledge are:
1) Perhaps agnostics, atheists, and those of other religions start up more programs like these themselves so Christians don't have the virtual monopoly of social good services to maybe prevent another instance of proselytizers doing the hard sell.

2) Also, since the non-religious are more comfortable with proof & reason than blind faith maybe they should be able to work out their addictions alone by logically weighing the outcomes, consciously knowing your strengths & weaknesses, planning a routine to follow, and devising methods and objects that will deter you from falling prey to that addiction. There HAVE been people who have overcome addiction alone out of sheer will and excellent planning.

This woman was way out of line but those 2 points are just some things to think about before the predictable lament of her overzealous religiosity.
John Lucas

[graywarrior]

355. Good points

However...out of respect for AA, it will remain as it is because it works..fortunately

[Joe Chi Minh]

357. It seems the founders were wise enough to see that, and grow in their

own understanding with the organisation, as it progressed.

[graywarrior]

358. Kinda like the constitution

[Joe Chi Minh]

359. Yes. Very much.