I do believe there exists a coordinated effort to manipulate the masses by those,...

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

,...who corner the ranks of financial and political power.

Does that make me a "conspiracy theorist"?

No.

It makes me pragmatic.

How does a pragmatic assist others in distinguishing manipulative messages from reality when "reality" is so incongruent with common cultural beliefs that, people prefer to escape their own burden by pretending the oppressors do not exist?

Difficult thoughts and questions.

[patrice]

1. Since the beginning of the U.S. - google Horace Mann and the Prussian Education System =

SOCIAL OBEDIENCE

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. OBEDIENCE

Now! Pay attention to the spelling Nazi!!! Damn you!

Cattle and sheep, the church and the bankers know that!

Even revolutionaries have picked up on that one.

That's why intellectuals are the first to go.

[patrice]

5. Yes, master!

I used to be a very good speller, without even thinking about it. My age is starting to show. :blush:

[undergroundpanther]

10. Fuck...

In that case I am really doomed. shit. Let me see I am,anti-authoritarian to my core,disobedient,rabble rousing,abuse hating,gender queer,consciousness explorer, freak, a thinker without a box,and not one to respect that empty sound power makes when it feels I do not respect it's auth-or-a-tee.. because I don't. I do see every person regardless of social rank, title or whatever as my equal.But for some people,the sociopaths, narcissist bullies and authoritarian control freak types of personalities I see them as my inferiors..I got so many reasons why people who want"social obedience" will not like the likes of me it ain't funny.

[elshiva]

15. You are a threat because you speak your mind.

Be a threat. :loveya: :hug:

[undergroundpanther]

18. Of course

I can't be anything but what I is.And if that is a threat to them,consider them threatened than..

(panther extends razor sharp claws,from velvet paws ,walking silently, stalking for conservative prey ..Panther growls softly" here rich piggy piggies" and drops a few dollars on the floor... than suddenly an oink,a flash of claws, a failed argument crushes the darkened mind,and razors tear through a cold heart with a ferocity that makes it bleed for the first time,and the piggy wails in shame and public humiliation ..Than the next day the section 8 housing program has 100 new openings...and the food bank is full,and there is more to come...)
:evilgrin:

Hunting Machine by Fictional,for inspiration..

Rows and rows of teeth
As sharp as a razor blade
Laying by the river bank
Waiting for his prey

Along comes his prey
With no sense of fear
The hunter takes his chance
And bites off his ear

He's the hunting machine
King of his land
He takes opportunities
That falls in his hand

He's the hunting machine
An ancient dinosaur (in my case Feline)
One thing you don't want
Sitting by your door

As night turns to day
He lays in the baking sun
Building up his energy
And thinking about his tum

A sorry soul comes along
As blind as night can be
Has no chance to take a breath
And the hunter has his tea...

Bwahahahaaa~

[Idealism]

2. Reminds me of something I've read before

In every country where man is free to think and to speak, differences of opinion will arise from difference of perception, and the imperfection of reason; but these differences when permitted, as in this happy country, to purify themselves by free discussion, are but as passing clouds overspreading our land transiently and leaving our horizon more bright and serene. - Thomas Jefferson

A pragmatist should engage both sides of debate in discourse to ascertain the true state of affairs. The problem in this country isn't simply polarization, its the downright unwilling nature of people to think for themselves, and to question things that are told to us. We are all guilty of believing things to be truth without evidence, investigation, and even thought in some cases. To be truly informed on both sides of issues, and thus a pragmatist, you must understand there is a fine line between propaganda and facts and you alone are responsible for the truth as you see it.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

9. People "think",...they think about how to survive within the system they live.

People are DRIVEN to think FOR themselves in order to merely survive. I believe those who hold the reigns of economic and political power know the basics of citizens' survival and advantage themselves of it rather than contribute to it.

The difference between oppression and leadership is distinct: one burdens the other lifts.

[patrice]

3. Doesn't have to be a conspiracy.Could just be the cumulative effect of a certain mindset in

powerful positions.

[BrklynLiberal]

6. I agree with your conclusion. I have no solution...possibly education.

Certainly the media is aiding and abetting them.

[alittlelark]

7. My hubby is a Stanford MBA... it's VERY difficult...

He is a Deacon in the 'Church of Free Market Capitalism'. It starts w/ casual mentioning of issues and slowly progresses to data. There can and will be denials and yelling. It takes TIME. It is difficult and may take years off your life.

But logic will overtake most of them.

[earth mom]

8. Yep-some of them are here on DU saying "Thank God the Bailout" passed & you'd better love capitalism

& Christmas or else! They also love to rant about how Socialism is evil & Obama is the best politician ever. :eyes:

And those who don't agree get verbally dissed up one side and down the other in the relentless effort to intimidate them. :puke:

To that I say Don't let them win & Never Give Up!!!

[undergroundpanther]

11. When I hear that shit

I am given yet another reason to say,fuck capitalism and eat the goddamn rich, because they prove to me yet again that the gree market bullshit,the massive game of make believe required to believe such shit and reinforce to me yet again that the greedy who create the needy and the rich,they'll devour you soul first if you do as they want you to do.

[Ichingcarpenter]

12. well that one's credibility

goes along with his Wal-Mart shopping and SUV driving.
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer but he will tell you he is
and we are a piece of flint, not knowing that it is sharper
than a surgeon's scalpel.

[Forkboy]

16. That poster is a cartoon character playing a role.

He'll tell you he's the "real deal" but he's anything but, not even to himself. He hides behind his bluster, but when push comes to shove it's clear he has little knowledge on most subjects he brays about.

[autorank]

13. You are correct. k*r

... the people have had little chance since the narrative of events is controlled by the manipulators. The Internet is taking away that control mechanism. Watch for some serious intimidation and controls to emerge.

[specimenfred1984]

14. Easy answer, suggest others read a few books about propaganda

My two favorites are "Taking the Risk Out of Democracy: Corporate Propaganda versus Freedom and Liberty" and believe it or not "Mein Kampf". Both books discuss in depth the techniques used by governments and corporations for the last 100 years and the 2nd book obviously shows what happens when people actually believe the propaganda.

[Nay]

23. And a book "4 Arguments for the Elimination of television" will show you

how these bastards, along with the inherent nature of TV, have "catapulted" the propaganda to such great lengths.

[conscious evolution]

47. Good reading recommendations.

I would also suggest reading up on Dr Edward Berneys.

[Cerridwen]

17. Snippet from an interview with Aldous Huxley - 1958

It seems to fit the theme of your thread.

"...the dictatorship of the future will be very unlike the dictatorships which we've been familiar with in the immediate past.

...take another book...George Orwell's "1984"...written at the height the Stalinist regime, and just after the Hitler regime, and there he foresaw a dictatorship using entirely the methods of terror, the methods of physical violence...I think what's going to happen in the future is that the dictators will find, as the old saying goes, you can do everything with bayonets except sit on them.

...{the new dictators will find} if you want to preserve your power indefinitely, you have to get the consent of the ruled, and this they will do partly by drugs.., partly by these new techniques of propaganda. They will do it by bypassing the rational part of man and appealing to his subconscious and his deeper emotions and physiology even...making him actually love his slavery.

...this is the danger that actually people may be in some ways be happy under the new regime. But they will be happy in situations in which they oughtn't to be happy..."

(emphasis added) Aldous Huxley, The Mike Wallace Interview, 5/18/1958 (video link at link)

The interview includes a discussion about the new medium - television, propaganda, Madison Avenue, political elections and marketing candidates, the "pharmacological revolution", and much more.

[trusty elf]

19. Thanks for the Huxley interview link.

[Cerridwen]

32. You're welcome. If you're at all interested in history or early TV,

there are more interesting interviews from that time frame(ish) you might enjoy as well. I got lost for a few days at that site. It's astounding to watch pieces of history as it happened.

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

24. Yep. People become willing participants in their own oppression

and as the indoctrination has taken many years, how it is now is the way it has always been to them

Abuse, fewer rights, less freedom becomes normal. Words get new meanings...meanings that diminish the original meanings and in the doing, diminish the impact. Change the way people see things...torture, for example...and change the thinking...which results in acceptance of some truly horrible crimes.

Just in recent memory we see this example with the Bush administration...and not just with the attempting to redefine words....but concepts and ideas as well.

We heard from Bush that victory won't look like what we're used to...so now victory in his wars of choice has become anything he...and government...says it is...

We heard from Bush Inc that democracy can mean different things to different people...now couple that with the teachings in America of democracy...but now democracy, according to Bush, can mean electing a dictator....having fewer rights...living under religious (theocratic) rule.

And the thing is, this doesn't have to work on everyone...just enough people. And as long as government goes along with the lies, the distortions, and they operate on the new meanings...it becomes reality, of sorts...manfactured and carefully nurtured...but still the reality people now operate under. Official reports and commissions that present themselves as seeking the facts and the truth...but actually present a carefully constructed view of the events that shapes facts in a manner that skews the truth. Then we're told that's accountability.

In 8 years children have been born in an America that has never been at peace, has always tortured people for the good of national security, and who have fewer rights....but they don't know they have fewer rights because the rights they have now are the only rights they have ever known...and government spying on you is normal...it's legal....and all the while they are getting the whole founding fathers, bill of rights, America the good teachings in school, from news, from adults around them...and from the various ways patriotism comes through...flag waving, anthem singing, ain't we the greatest in the world because we're free celebrating.

People, so many of them, don't seem to understand that when government is given more power, when police agencies are given more power...then your rights - your very freedom - are (is) eroded in the doing. But if you don't really know your rights then you don't know when they have been eroded...and when authority figures that you have been trained to respect since childhood tell you that evil is out there and is coming...you become the child seeking out his parents after a nightmare. You just want to be safe and you turn to those you trust...

And government knows how to use that fear...knows how to play on those fears....

sigh...

I could ramble on and on...lolol

[Cerridwen]

31. Beautifully said. Solly, I wish you'd think about making this its own

thread and continuing to "ramble on." Please?

I know we have some people on this board (and of course, the anonymous lurkers :D ) who haven't quite grokked this. A lot of those people were born and/or grew up during the 80s, reagan greed-fest. Those are many of the ones I see today who can't imagine a world of peace in which capitalism, if it exists at all, is used for the benefit of We, the People, rather than We, the Corporate-cog.

You said it wonderfully. Please consider making a separate thread.

:hi:

[Kitty Herder]

37. I second that. nt

[Solly Mack]

39. Thank you, Cerridwen.

I'd end up getting frustrated. My anger/sadness would get the better of me. It so often does these days.

I've met all too many people born under Reagan who only know the neat little cover story about Reagan (he made us feel good..he ended communism!)

I don't get any fondness for Nixon or GHW Bush. Time doesn't soften my memory any...Such halcyon memories just let me know that years from now someone is going to say the exact same shit about Shrub. Yeah, Shrub was bad but he was no (insert the then current elected wanna-be tyrant's name)...Course, a lot of what drives those self-protecting memories is the complete lack of accountability.

After all, if Shrub was that bad...wouldn't the land of the free and the home of the brave have sent him to prison? So...it must mean Shrub wasn't that bad and people lied about him. Because America...not MY America...would ever allow such things as torture. Well, see...MY America does torture and MY America protects war criminals and allows them to hold office and make decisions for all Americans.

That America that doesn't torture is some ideal in a book. That ideal can't be realized when government makes excuses for violating those ideals by committing atrocities...and when all too many people are all too willing to accept those excuses. To move on..as if it never happened...sure, they'll claim they'll never forget and they will even tell themselves "never again"...until somebody worse comes along and gee, I can't believe anyone would cause me to remember Shrub fondly...as bad as he was...so and so is worse.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

People will have competing histories...and just like the books written on Poppy and Nixon, people will decide which "truth" to believe...because THE truth...the actual facts...were never validated...never confirmed... with accountability.


I'm not one to think one (or several) good act(s) somehow mitigates all the bad. The dead that comes from the bad aren't any less dead...the tortured aren't any less tortured..and a donation to a country devastated by flood in no way makes up for people being tortured and killed in some secret prison.

Resting on the agreed upon laurels of the past is pathetic..."they should be grateful! we did (whatever) for them!...as if somehow all future debts are paid in advance forever now. That any action , no matter how criminal, is above approach because America saved the world! (or some such variation)

Yet all that is part and parcel to the myths and lies that have become truth in the minds of many...that allows far too many to excuse what is happening now. To rationalize it all away. To pretend to themselves that we, as a people, can just move on (without full accountability) and follow the yellow brick to the land of "never again"

Dammit..see now..I'm going to stop talking...you're a bad influence. :)

[Cerridwen]

42. A bad influence? Me?

Perish the thought. :D

I'm going to continue to do my durndest to keep doing it if it keeps prompting posts like these. :evilgrin:

Very well said - again. :hi:

[MedleyMisty]

43. I was born in December of 1980

So yeah, I have a birthday coming up soon and am terribly old - only two years short of 30.

I certainly can't imagine a world of peace that includes capitalism. Capitalism seems to be quite opposed to peace and thrives on war and destruction and slavery.

I read the post you were replying to and didn't see anything about how capitalism can be all happy and good and peaceful? Or am I misinterpreting?

Anyway, I definitely get that people are sheep. My problem is that I don't understand why. Other people tell me that they are completely blameless and innocent angels and that I must not criticize them for being so easily led and told what to do and what to think, but really it seems to me that it is a choice. I'm not rich. I am white and straight, but that's the extent of my privilege - I am female and my parents were both mill workers and my father died when I was seven and my mother raised me by herself in a single wide trailer while boarding socks. I went to rural schools that weren't hellholes but weren't that great either. I make just over $10/hour and work 40 hours a week. I don't have special access to anything that the majority of sheep don't have. No one is pointing a gun at their head and sticking toothpicks in their eyes to force them to watch TV, and even if someone did no one can force them to believe and accept what it says.

Imagine if they gave a load of propaganda and no one paid any attention to it.

[Cerridwen]

44. Hi, sleebarker.

I was talking about a specific type of poster I've seen post here and who, I'm pretty sure, Solly has seen post here, as well. Not the generation born in the 80s but those posters here who, for some reason, bought into the whole 80s "ideal" of "greed is good." It's the only thing I can think of that makes sense; they believe the propaganda from the 80s. I also have some history of posting to Solly and reading Solly's posts so perhaps I made some assumptions and posted short-hand I knew she'd understand without remembering that others would read it.

My SO and I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out why some people get it and others don't. We've yet to come to a definitive answer. If you've any ideas I'd love to hear them. We haven't yet found that one common trait or characteristic that accounts for some who question everything and others who believe anything.

"Imagine if they gave a load of propaganda and no one paid any attention to it." That would be so nice.

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

46. Yes...it was like that. Just continuing a conversation where we've had before

:)

[conscious evolution]

48. It all comes down to fear.

It is one of prime motivators for almost every action by every living creature that has a brain.

[Solly Mack]

45. Hi sleebarker

Welcome to DU

I like that!!

"Imagine if they gave a load of propaganda and no one paid any attention to it."

I struggle with the same...at a certain point you have to be responsible for what you believe or don't believe.....still, I know people can be influenced and I know the earlier the influences the easier it is to shape thought. I know the easiest way to sway people is with their prejudices than with reason...I know if people believe that everything they have can be taken away by "them" (pick a them) then that is the only gun needed to create fear and suspicion. So I struggle...not because people are blameless or innocent...but because they are being manipulated into thinking or reacting a certain way. I have to struggle with myself as well. Also questioning...What do I believe? Why? Do I really believe that? etc.. Mostly, I end up at "I don't know"..so the quest continues.

Again,welcome to DU!

[Fumesucker]

40. Oh, that's just wonderful, now you tell us..

They will do it by bypassing the rational part of man and appealing to his subconscious and his deeper emotions and physiology even...making him actually love his slavery.

Anybody watched much commercial TV lately?

[Cerridwen]

41. I've been doing the best I can. I first posted this information back

in June, I think it was. :D Sorry, I know you didn't mean me specifically. Was just playin' 'round.

I haven't watched commercial TV in almost a year. I don't miss it. I tried to watch at a friend's house. I couldn't do it. I had to leave the room.

[conscious evolution]

49. Two dimensional fiction

cannot hold a candle to three dimensional reality.

I cannot watch more than a few minutes of TV myself.The unreality of it all creeps me out.

Get rid of TV and we will go a long way towards restoring rational thought in the world.

[lib2DaBone]

20. World Trade Centers Fell down all by themselves....

..Cheney did not tell the SAC to stand down. Silverstien did not quadruple the insurance covrage on the WTC's and there never were any lawsuits about asbestos in the toweres. It's all a "Conspiracy". Now go back to sleep....

[cali]

21. yes, yes, MIHOP. And if you don't believe that, you're a mindless drone.

as for the OP. Of course politicians are trying to manipulate the public. That's actually rather a neutral statement in and of itself.

[judasdisney]

22. The Shock Doctrine: designed to manipulate the masses.

by Naomi Klein. Book of the Century, along with Naomi Wolf's End of America.

[arcadian]

25. People are just fine with the hypocrisy. They probably couldn't function as human beings without it.

"We're all part of the same hypocrisy, Senator. But never think it applies to my family." -Michael Corleone

[LanternWaste]

26. Doesn't every adult,everywhere

Doesn't every adult everywhere-- regarldess of wealth, power, influence, etc, attempt to influence those around us to further our own personal agendas and goals?

Limiting that concept to only those in power seems... lacking at best.

We are all of us sheep... and we are all of us wolves.

[specimenfred1984]

27. No, some human beings actually share information with others

simply to share, inform and act cooperatively. Try it sometime, LOL.

[LanternWaste]

34. Sharing in one instance does not preclude the attempt...

Sharing in one instance does not preclude the attempt at an agenda in another instance. :P

Does a husband or wife never try to limit/change/attempt a goal or a personal agenda without the spouse's knowledge? Maybe these couples do exist, but I've never known anyone who hasn't tried to disingenuously influence another person at one time or another.

And on the same plane, I've never met any one person in which control is their exclusive raison-d'etre. Thus, we are all of us sheep, and we are all of us wolves.

[conscious evolution]

50. I think the difference is scale.

Though that does seeem hypocritical I must admit.

[stuntcat]

28. a conspiracy everyone should agree on:

the auto and oil industries have made plump consumers want cars that get 12 miles a gallon.
Somehow we're the only "1st-world" country where millions of citizens are against alternative energy and protecting endangered animals :crazy:

oh nevermind! Ignore me, I'm nothing but a conspiracy theorist.

[blindpig]

29. Sure thing, ain't nothin' new.

Edward Bernays - Propaganda

CHAPTER I
ORGANIZING CHAOS

THE conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society.
Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware of the identity of their fellow members in the inner cabinet.
They govern us by their qualities of natural leadership, their ability to supply needed ideas and by their key position in the social structure. Whatever attitude one chooses to take toward this condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons—a trifling fraction of our hundred and twenty million—who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world.
It is not usually realized how necessary these invisible governors are to the orderly functioning of our group life. In theory, every citizen may vote for whom he pleases. Our Constitution does not envisage political parties as part of the mechanism of government, and its framers seem not to have pictured to themselves the existence in our national politics of anything like the modern political machine. But the American voters soon found that without organization and direction their individual votes, cast, perhaps, for dozens or hundreds of candidates, would produce nothing but confusion. Invisible government, in the shape of rudimentary political parties, arose almost overnight. Ever since then we have agreed, for the sake of simplicity and practicality, that party machines should narrow down the field of choice to two candidates, or at most three or four.
In theory, every citizen makes up his mind on public questions and matters of private conduct. In practice, if all men had to study for themselves the abstruse economic, political, and ethical data involved in every question, they would find it impossible to come to a conclusion about anything. We have voluntarily agreed to let an invisible government sift the data and high-spot the outstanding issues so that our field of choice shall be narrowed to practical proportions. From our leaders and the media they use to reach the public, we accept the evidence and the demarcation of issues bearing upon public questions; from some ethical teacher, be it a minister, a favorite essayist, or merely prevailing opinion, we accept a standardized code of social conduct to which we conform most of the time.
In theory, everybody buys the best and cheapest commodities offered him on the market. In practice, if every one went around pricing, and chemically testing before purchasing, the dozens of soaps or fabrics or brands of bread which are for sale, economic life would become hopelessly jammed. To avoid such confusion, society consents to have its choice narrowed to ideas and objects brought to its attention through propaganda of all kinds. There is consequently a vast and continuous effort going on to capture our minds in the interest of some policy or commodity or idea.
It might be better to have, instead of propaganda and special pleading, committees of wise men who would choose our rulers, dictate our conduct, private and public, and decide upon the best types of clothes for us to wear and the best kinds of food for us to eat. But we have chosen the opposite method, that of open competition. We must find a way to make free competition function with reasonable smoothness. To achieve this society has consented to permit free competition to be organized by leadership and propaganda.
Some of the phenomena of this process are criticized—the manipulation of news, the inflation of personality, and the general ballyhoo by which politicians and commercial products and social ideas are brought to the consciousness of the masses. The instruments by which public opinion is organized and focused may be misused. But such organization and focusing are necessary to orderly life.
As civilization has become more complex, and as the need for invisible government has been increas ingly demonstrated, the technical means have been invented and developed by which opinion may be regimented.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html#SECTION1

[Karenina]

35. Adam Curtis delves into Bernays in "Century of the Self" (BBC)

which is easily Googled.

Then there is "Affluenza" which is currently on our Political Videos Forum, courtesy of Lorien, one of my favorite DUers.

If you are reading this and have never heard of Sigmund Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays, I would encourage you to get up to speed.

[conscious evolution]

51. Century of the Self

This is one of very,very few TV programs that I recommend people see.

[L0oniX]

30. The USA is and had been and imperialist country. Of course that will apply to its own people too.

[librechik]

33. everyone should watch this documentary to understand how we got here: The Trap

http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trap1.php



"The Trap is a series of three films by Bafta-winning producer Adam Curtis that explains the origins of our contemporary, narrow idea of freedom. It shows how a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures led to today's idea of freedom. This model was derived from ideas and techniques developed by nuclear strategists during the Cold War to control the behaviour of the Soviet enemy."

Adam Curtis is the best--the other series he was involved in (Power of Nightmares, Century of the Self) are also essential viewing--

you can see them at the movie site I just linked above

[Uncle Joe]

36. I vaguely remember a program on PBS from the Vietnam era titled The Cube or something like that.

A man was trapped inside a square room, no doors or windows, occasionally people came in but he could never get out.

Finally he found an escape walked down a hall way, went in to a room where a man behind a desk congratulated him on figuring it out. Afterward he left the man's office walked down the hallway to the exit only to find himself trapped in another cube.

[tomp]

38. not a conspiracy theorist, an historian. nt