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Watching the Purina Dog Show, I have to reaffirm...I hate the American Kennel Club

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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:58 PM
Original message
Watching the Purina Dog Show, I have to reaffirm...I hate the American Kennel Club
What a disgusting thing these people do. They breed dogs for extreme exageration of physical traits and in the process ruin the breeds. I saw a Labrador retriever today that looked like a wine keg on stumps, a basset hound that had four inch legs, and a German Shepherd with such a slope to its back, it looked like a jumping ramp for Evil Kenivil. Judge them on "what they are suppossed to do" my ass. It's a freakin beauty show where they reward extreme traits instead of mental and physical balance. I could outswin that lab any day of the week, the hound could no more chase a rabbit than my sofa, and that Shepherd was so out of balance if he went for some bite work he would fall over.

There are no breeding restrictions, other than a paper registration. No mandatory health checks prior to breeding, no breed wardens, no restrictions on how many litters a male can sire or how often a female can be bred. Many breeds have been ruined by this organization that is soley worried about money and looks. If you have need of a working dog, or just want healthy stock, I strongly suggest going to Germany, Italy, or the Czek Republic where they are FCI registered and require actual tests and health evaluations prior to breeding.

Please don't support these people.

A show labrador



A true working retriever, SuperTanker



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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Breeding out hip dyslpasia?
Just a thought.
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. In the AKC you can breed dogs with dysplasia, there is no ban on it.
In my organization, dog's hips are rated A, B, and C and anything below C being considered dysplasia. You can breed an A to a A, B, or C. You can breed a B dog to an A or B dog, but not to a C. A C dog can only be bred to an A dog. A breed warden will check this, and will not certify and register the litter if you bred a C dog to anything other than an A dog. Our rate of dysplasia is about 3%, which many feel is about as low as you can get due to genetic variation and some dysplasia caused by physical trauma.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The lab you don't like
with the thick legs - breeding out hip dysplasia?
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Your post makes no sense.
That "look" is not about breeding to avoid hip dysplasia. The lab in the bottom is an athelete and is a true working lab.

How about this.




versus an FCI registered and Schutzhund tested dog like this:



Note the highly exaggerated slope in the first picture??? American GSD have a 30-50% frequency of dysplasia. It is about 8-12% (high estimate) in their German FCI-registered cousins.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Exactly right. I made the same point in my post as well.
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 04:26 PM by BrklynLiberal
That extreme slope is why there is so much hip dysplasia

Here is a site where you can read about Schutzhund to see what they look for.
http://www.bigskyschutzhund.bizland.com/whatis.htm
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I'm referring to the lab
Don't post a picture of the sheperd when I'm asking about the lab. And I'm not asking for your opinion about the way a lab currently looks, I'm asking whether there is a scientific explanation that might include breeding out hip dysplasia in labs, and other dogs where it is problematic.
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. LOL, No!
The look is a take off of the whole "block head" movement that swept the show dogs back in the late seventies and early eighties and finally morphed into this. It is purely an American narcism agenda, and certainly NOT about breeding a healthy animal. They are far removed from anything considered a working lab, even though you will hear the show people say they are "keeping the British look", which is crap. I owned, trained, and field trailed three labs imported from Great Britian, and they did not look anything like that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CANDO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
134. They are simply postured differently
The dog on top is in a lower crouch. See his lower leg is parallel to the ground, while his hind leg is extended further back. Compare the one in bottom photo. Leg is not parallel and hind leg is further forward, thereby raising his rump.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. and even with x-rays there cannot be an absolute ruling until the GSD is a year old.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. the cat breeders are doing the same thing
Persians twenty years ago actually had NOSES. Now it's considered a blemish for them to have anything that juts out from the front of the face.

And siamese twenty years ago weren't the fragile, weird looking cats they've turned them into.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. I dealt with a purebred siamese 30 years ago
"Fragile" was the last thing I'd call it. It terrorized the neighbourhood.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. the ones from 20 years ago WERE NOT fragile
And I owned a sealpoint male 20 years that didn't look like some spooky, skinny little twinkie that is marketed as siamese nowadays.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree.
No one should be patronizing breeders or supporting groups like the AKC when there are millions of companion animals currently homeless or in shelters.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
103. They did bring us "Best in Show" however.
One of the funniest movies ever. Made those people looks so absurd, shallow and hysterical. Any of them who actually watched that movie would think it was a documentary.
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SpookyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #103
136. It kinda was a documentary, really
My sister has shown dogs, Great Danes, for many many years, and I've hung out some in the wings. So many of those people are freakin' nuts! I "know" every single one of those characters in the movie, every one of them.

I do not like the AKC, do not like breed standards based on looks, especially for working dogs. She and I just don't talk about things like ear cropping or whatnot. I know she loves her Danes, but I do not understand cutting them up to make them "fit". It's disgusting, IMHO.

Fun fact: a few of the judges in the movie were real judges that my sister knows.


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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
138. And no one should be
breeding human children when there are so many in state care needing homes.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #138
163. I could agree with that...
but that's flamebait for another thread.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Which is why people should support breed rescues and shelters.
Breeding and selling living, feeling beings for money is inherently sick and selfish, and that manifests itself in the priorities of breeders.

People who really care about dogs don't breed and don't encourage breeders with their financial support. There are too many great dogs dying for lack of homes for there to be any ethical reason to keep breeding more.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Support the American mutt!
There was a BBC documentary posted here a while ago, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, that REALLY went into the horrors of pedigree dog inbreeding.

(And I looked at the fine print on Maddy's temperament test: it said she was scared of children and she should be properly introduced to them. :P Good seeing you yesterday!)
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
39. Isaw that as well. The scientist actually called some of the "purebred" breeding
goals animal abuse. He said that they were making the dogs so fragile and prone to disease and injury that they were in effect self-destructing the dogs.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
84. Link to the documentary
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. I totally agree... but only good pet owners. Rescue dogs have put up with enough crap already.
I own 2 rescue dogs and they are the best dogs EVER (even though they both definitely have issues that would make them difficult for a normal family who doesn't have the time and patience).

Most rescue operations are very selective before they place a dog. THANK GOODNESS. I would hate to think of either of my "babies" being dumped off again.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
59. Agreed.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
75. Well said.
"Breeding and selling living, feeling beings for money is inherently sick and selfish, and that manifests itself in the priorities of breeders."

I'm just repeating this because it's so 100% on the point.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. But my Shitzus love the show
Really, I'm not making this up. They are both glued to the television.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. I've got two labs, both of them came from the pound
And I adopted a Siberian Husky from the husky rescue.

They are both trained retrievers, we're having duck tomorrow that one of them fished out.

All my dogs are much more active and athletic looking than their breeds I see at the dog shows.

It's almost like nazi breeding eoxperiments.


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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sadly, I must agree with you. The AKC and its shows are merely beauty contests.
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 04:21 PM by BrklynLiberal
Try going to a schutzhund Show if you want to get a really good working German Shepherd...or Germany, Italy, or the Check Republic as WindRiverMan said. Germans Shepherd Rescue is also a wonderful idea.

Instead of this

or this


the AKC approves this..



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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Not only does the AKC approve that--they consider it "championship" material
which I guess is the whole point of this post.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Yes. Sad isn't it.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
56. The slanty back thing is just bizarre. What possible point could there be to that? nt
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
55. GSD shows are something completely bizarre.
Double handling is not uncommon and is, in fact, encouraged.

I was showing my dog in the herding group and one of the GSD handler's friends was standing outside the ring ringing a cowbell. WTF?
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CANDO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
135. I don't see it
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 03:22 PM by CANDO
As I posted earlier, you are looking at different "poses", and saying the bodies are different. Look closely and you will see the "show" dog has a handler and his lower leg is resting nearly parallel to the ground and his hind leg is extended far behind his body. This forces his rump lower and hence the sloped look to his hind quarters. The other dogs are not being postured like the show dog is. That is the only difference I can see. As a side note, me and my wife and daughter went to the show which was broadcast on NBC after the Macy's Parade. It was in Reading, PA last weekend. My first dog show ever, probably my last. I see nothing but intra-dog world politics and hierarchy going on. Much like the Olympics with the subjective "judged" sports being so very politicized.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. Another reason...
This is the tail of an English Springer Spaniel:


This is what the AKC requires be done with it:


Assholes.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. In Europe they do not cut any of the ears or tails. It looks like the standards
are different there. The more natural look is appreciated. I have watched Crufts on TV and it is amazing how wonderful the clipped and docked dogs look with their natural ears and tails.
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. They still do in some dogs, but not many.
Dogs that hunt a lot in heavy cover actually benefit from a tail docking. If you have never seen a hunting dog knock the tip of its tail off wagging its tail furiously in heavy cover you cannot understand. However, most dogs don't won't ever see those conditions, so tail docking serves no purpose.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Ranch dogs are docked too
I would NEVER dock a dog's tail, but my springer and cattle dog both had theirs done before we got them.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. The practice is banned in Oz
The RSPCA believes that cosmetic tail docking is a painful and totally unnecessary tradition and had long campaigned for ban on this cruel practice. In October 2003 the RSPCAs call was heeded when the Primary Industries Ministerial Council agreed to implement a nationally coordinated ban on routine tail docking for non-therapeutic (cosmetic) reasons. The ban came into force nationally on 1 April 2004. Since that date it is illegal to dock dogs tails anywhere in Australia unless there is a medical reason behind the operation. Only a qualified veterinarian is permitted to carry out the surgery, in accordance with state and territory legislation.

http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/tail.asp


A cattle dog, eh?

Blue heeler? or a red?



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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Red
We actually don't know if she originally came from a ranch. We got her from the pound, but the pound is in an area with a lot of ranching.

Our springer DID come from a ranch. His mom's a cow dog. :bounce:

And he's the laziest little guy you ever saw. :P


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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Cattle dogs are an extremely clever breed
Has a bit of dingo in it.

SO has a border collie.

Your truly will be after a clue heeler once we're all settled.

Preferably one with a silly patch like these guys:



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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
73. Border Collies don't have any dingo in them
There are no dingos in Scotland.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. I was talking about Australian Cattle Dogs
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 11:56 PM by depakid
Here's a red and a blue heeler:



Cross between the dingo:



and the blue merle scotch collie:



With a bit of dalmation & kelpie.

In 1840, a landowner by the name of Thomas Hall of Muswellbrook in the Hunter Valley of New South Wales imported two smooth-haired blue merle Scotch Collies called at that time by the ignorant people Welsh Heelers. These were considerably better than the common collie, but still had some of the heading traits that were undesirable. Hall crossed the progeny of this pair with the Dingo; the resulting litters became known as Halls Heelers.

As the Dingo trait is to creep silently from behind and bite, the pups followed this style of heeling and were welcomed by grazier and drover alike for their ability to handle wild cattle, their stamina to travel great distances over all types of terrain, and their endurance in extremes of temperature. The progeny were generally of Dingo type, colour being either red or blue merle. Hall continued his experimental breeding until his death in 1870.

Around this time there were landowners who experimented with the crossing of the Dingo and Collie. George Elliot of Queensland produced some excellent workers, entering into his diary on the 12th of February 1873 that his two month old quarter Dingo worked so silently on cattle, he called her Munya, which is aboriginal for silent.

In the early 1870s a butcher named Alex Davis proudly displayed the ability of a pair of Halls Heelers at the cattle saleyards in Sydney. Two brothers, Jack and Harry Bagust of Canterbury in Sydney, were among several cattlemen to purchase pups from Davis. They then set about to improve them. Firstly, they crossed a bitch with a fine imported Dalmatian dog. This cross changed the merle colour to red or blue speckle. As with Dalmatians, the pups are born white, developing their colour gradually from approximately three weeks of age.

The main purpose of this cross was to instil in the dogs a love of horses and protectiveness toward master and property. Unfortunately, some of the working ability was lost with this cross, so, after admiring this ability in the Black and Tan Kelpie, the Bagust brothers crossed the Kelpie with their speckled dogs. This produced highly intelligent, controllable workers, built like thick set Dingoes and with peculiar markings known to no other dog. Through selective breeding, these dogs became the forebears of the present day Australian Cattle Dog.

In 1893, Mr. Robert Kaleski took particular interest in this breed, developing and stabilising it, and drawing up a standard of the breed. This standard was endorsed initially by the Cattle and Sheepdog Club of Australia, then the Kennel Club of New South Wales in 1903.

http://www.andrewfaith.com/?page_id=4
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #80
85. Well, I'm sorry you're quoting Andrew Faith, a previously unknown Australian blogger
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 12:29 AM by haruka3_2000
(until you found him)

That article is full of holes. I don't have time to go into this fully, because I'm going to bed, but I'll go into it further tomorrow.

1) There is no such thing as a "Scotch" Collie. What is now called a "Scotch" collie is a "Lassie" Collie.

2) At that time, the ONLY collie was what is now called a "Border Collie." It wasn't until well after Queen Victoria ascended the throne, and she was gifted some border collies bred with Borzois' that "Lassie" collies became a breed.

3) The article mentions TWO-MONTH-OLD puppies working. NO ONE works pups that young. EVER. That is the #1 sign of bullshit in this article. My oldest collie (a Border Collie, the only real kind) started herding at 6-months, and that is only because of exceptional bloodlines. Most trainers won't start under a year old. Regardless of any of that, a baby pup could not herd anything, especially cattle.

4) You did mention Border Collies coming from Dingoes in your post.

This is something I've studied EXTENSIVELY. I'm sorry you've been suckered in by a random Australian blogger, who doesn't even really blog about dogs.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. The breeds didn't look the same as they do today- and may have had different names
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 12:50 AM by depakid
But they are indeed scotch collies

...the breed has an ancestry that spans thousands of years as the Scotch Collie's ancestors had been used to herd sheep and cattle for many centuries in both the Highlands of Scotland and throughout early England. The word "collie" is thought to come from the word for "black" or "coal" in Old English.

The Scotch Collie breed consists of both the Rough Collie and the Smooth Collie. A division between long-haired and short-haired variants also existed in the 19th century. However, it is apparent that at one point the Scotch Collie was much smaller than today's dog, like the many other working collie breeds. The ancestor of the Scotch Collie was short, somewhere around 14 inches or so at the shoulders with a broader head, and black or black-and-white. The dogs that came to be the Scotch Collie had been used to herd and guard the flocks and herds of their caretakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_Collie


"Border" collies of course refer to the border areas of Scotland- but it seems they were developed later than what were known as scotch collies:

The Border Collie is descended from droving and gathering breeds originating on the Scottish and English border, including the Cumberland Sheepdog. Mention of the "Collie" or "Colley" type first appeared toward the end of the nineteenth century, with every current Border Collie tracing back to a dog known as Old Hemp. Old Hemp, a tri-color dog, was born September 1893 and died May 1901. He was bred by Adam Telfer from Roy, a black and tan dog, and Meg, a black-coated, strong-eyed bitch. Hemp was a quiet, powerful dog that sheep responded to easily. Many shepherds used him for stud and Hemp's working style became the Border Collie style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Collie


blue merle scotch collie pup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_ (dog_coat_color)


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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #89
94. Quick addendum re: source of confusion from a previous post
"SO has a border collie"

SO = significant other, AKA partner.

Not: "so has a border collie."

She owns a border collie- and nope, not a trace of dingo in that dog, as it barks at everything from airplanes to thunder and posties- to bird calls on the computer.

Curiously, the dog will cock its head, have a bark and search round the computer desk when we check out Australian bird calls, but when we play certain North American birds, the Zoe's mostly disinterested.

We surmise that's because she's heard Aussie birdsongs- she knows, has seen and stalked them before- whereas the North American birds are just more weird sounds coming from the glowing machines her pack members stare inexplicably at.

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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #89
105. The Border Collie predates "Scotch" or Lassie-type Collies
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 10:39 AM by haruka3_2000
They weren't called Border Collies then. They were just "Collies" or "sheep dogs" back then.

The "Scotch" Collie comes from Border Collies, which were bred to Borzois, and became show only dogs.

You have no idea what you're talking about with the history of these dogs. I have studied the breed extensively, and herd with REAL Border Collies, not AKC "barbie" Border Collies, under a "Big Hat" trainer. I would even argue that the AKC Border Collie is no longer the same breed as an ABCA or ISDS Border Collie. Many people believe that the AKC should be forced to stop calling their "Border Collies" Border Collies, as they are no longer allowed to call their version of the "Jack Russell," a "Jack Russell."

So, let's propose this, read some Donald McCaig, particulary "Dog Wars," then come back and discuss the history of Collies with me.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #105
110. Maybe you should edit the wiki entries I cited
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 11:22 AM by depakid
since apparently they have their facts wrong....

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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. The wiki article is correct, it just doesn't give the full history
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 11:40 AM by haruka3_2000
It's a SUMMARY. Obviously, it does not contain all the information that a full book on the history of the breed would contain. One thing the article doesn't mention is that they weren't called "Border Collies" until they crossed some of them with Borzois and created a new breed. The reason they started calling them Border Collies was to differentiate them from the new show collies.

I just find it laughable that you're acting like some sort of Collie expert because you read a wiki article, and didn't even manager to comprehend the whole article.

As I said, read "Dog Wars" and talk to a few breeders of WORKING Border Collies, not AKC Barbie Collie breeders, then get back to me.

BTW, I'd LOVE to read your original post.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #111
125. Not claiming to be a collie "expert" -you're the one claiming that
though quite a bit of what you've mentioned seems to be contradicted by online sources- and not just the wiki's or the Aussie blogger.



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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. I'm not claiming to be an expert, just to know way more than you
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 12:07 PM by haruka3_2000
Show me the sources you have.

BTW, the wiki article isn't contradicting what I said, despite what you keep insisting upon.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. That's my favorite dog
I would never cut off a dog's tail. Never did understand that.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. I agree, It's completely repellent. They breed to this "perfection" all the while
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 04:25 PM by Neshanic
supporting a huge dog industry of foods.

In the meantime, you can't get a vet to take care of a dog unless it's cash on the barrelhead. My opinion of Vets,(at least Scottsdale AZ ones) is somehere behind a used car salesman and politician.

My dog was a product of just two regular dogs. No papers. The AKC is a group that should be disbanded, or make life better for all dogs without genetically fucking them up.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Neither will doctors or dentists here
At least most of them won't. I think our local vets are more compassionate than our dentists, for certain. Our local clinic is a Catholic non-profit, so they do see anyone. But I know the specialists in other towns won't, never had a need to see a GP anywhere else so I don't know about that. I wouldn't single out vets if I were you though.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Well in Scottsdale I will.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. My doctor will give me a couple of packets of drugs from Pharma reps. Try getting one
freaking Rimadyl to hold a dog for the night, and promise to come in the next day to pick up the rest and pay. That's impossible. My opinion of vets is not good with the experiences I have had over the last year.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. That's too bad, we're lucky I guess
Our vets do housecalls. For real. They're just terrific.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Housecalls? Are you serious? What part of the country do you live in?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Oregon coast
Believe me, I was shocked to find out they did. I think a new vet came to town, a young woman. It's so much easier to deal with an animal in their home environment, people are more likely to have their animal seen more often, I imagine. Maybe it's a way to see more animals with less office space. I don't know. But she started it, so the other vet did too. But it's a small town, so there aren't any traffic problems, etc. It's only $45 for a house call. Can you believe it? Unreal. We are so fortunate, I know.
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. That is amazing. 45 bucks too!
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
169. I have one in Philadelphia who doesit--when I was pregnant, and
had three cats, it was a wonderful thing.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
112. 
You can find jerks in veterinary medicine, too. But I dont think its the norm, or that you would find more jerks among vets than among other professionals.

I have a long history at my vet's office, having been through 5 different vets at that practice since 1970 (the last three all still working together). They have always allowed me to run a bill whenever I needed to. Right now I am paying off the last $400 of a $1000 bill for exploratory abdominal surgery on my 15-year-old cat last spring.

Vets are self-employed businesspersons, not charities. They need to turn a profit to support themselves, their families, and their practice. Many also donate time and services to local animal shelters.

In my experience, once you have a history with a vet, so that he/she knows that he/she will eventually get paid, many are willing to run a bill for larger expenses, like my cat's surgery, rather than expecting you to let your pet die if you can't come up with all of the money up front.

In addition to my "day job" as a full time lecturer in English at a large state university, I also am self-employed as a freelance writer, editor, and tutor. I also used to run a home daycare. I expect to be paid for my services, and I don't give them away to people who don't or won't pay. If I have trouble with a client who doesn't pay, or who doesn't pay until I have pestered him/her for payment, then I drop that client like a hot potato. On the other hand, if one of my regular clients runs through a tough patch, I will let them make smaller payments over time, and sometimes will let them delay payment for a while.

Even my landlord has done this--for me. He knows after 7 years as my landlord that I normally pay rent right on time and in full, but a couple of years ago, a dearth of summertime freelance work coincided with some unexpected medical bills, so that I couldn't pay my rent in July and August. He knew that as soon as my regular checks started coming in from my university job in the fall, I would catch up, so he let me postpone paying those two months' worth of rent, and to pay them off not all at once, but by adding extra to my monthly rent for a few months.

But not everyone can afford to be that generous. If the person you owe money to is already running close to the wire financially, then it just might not be possible for that person to wait to be paid in full.

I dont think its fair to blame people for expecting to be paid for their work in a timely fashion. Would you be willing to accept partial payment or delayed payment for your own work?
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #112
150. So I am unfair to vets. First, I have no idea what part of of the country you live in, but
the rules, well they are different in the Phoenix area. I saw the same vet for five years since I got my dog as a puppy. Every visit was paid for in cash at the time service was provided. They balked about two months ago when I asked if I could get some pain medication for my dog and pay them in 48 fucking hours. No. not possible. Well then the visit to the specialist for his knee. Paid cash. Then took him to another vet closer, and from what I thought more responsive. The vet I see is a great guy but the head vet is all about the money and he wants it now.

So I ask the specialist if I can get the operation, 3,800 bucks split into four payments. No can do.

Oh and I am a professional also. I am a stamped registered landscape architect that happens to be in the worst economic downturn since the late 80's. My friends are laid off, offices are closed, architecture firms are closing or laying off people by the hundreds. But me, I get a retainer for my work, and then the rest is paid at design completion,and during the boom times, this would be months and months.

No one will operate on my dog on payments in Scottsdale, this miserable fucking little Hellhole with palm trees. The vets have brand new buildings and complexes, and yes they deserve to make money just like everyone else. It seems though that they forget that there is a little thing called an economic collapse here.

Phoenix is NOT like other places in the country. It is a vicious miserable place of money grubbing freaks, and is possibly the most unfriendly and insane place in the nation. So I am glad you live in a place where not only your vet cuts you slack, but your landlord, as here people are booted out on or about the 15th of the month for non-payment. No exceptions.
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newfie11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. The VDH/FCI requirements are why my dogs are from Germany and Denmark.
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 04:58 PM by newfie11
The requirements of the VND/VDH and FCI blow away the AKC!
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
30. Yeah, the GSD's are a mess.
I hate to see them crawl around the ring. They look crippled. They're not the only ones. Bulldogs can barely breathe now by the way they have been bred.

But it's not all physical attributes. My friend and I were just talking about border collies. The "show" border collies don't have the same herding instincts that "working" border collies have.

Even the breed I show, Belgian Sheepdogs, have idiot breeders breeding lines that are extremely skittish, have seizures, etc. just because someone likes the look. It goes against what conformation is supposed to be, i.e., to have the best representation of the standard.

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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Almost all bulldogs litters are delivered via Cesarian
because the heads on the pups are now too large to pass through the birthing canal. Real livestock owners fought for years to keep the border collie out of AKC registration to avoid the very problem you are talking about.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Is that your dog? What a beauty.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Thank you.
That's my dog, Duck-duck. We don't show him (he's neutered.) He's trained to do agility. I show his brother, Dante. He's currently ranked 11th in the country. Here's a picture of the whole family.



From left to right: Lia, Rose (Dante's daughter), Duck-duck, and Dante.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #47
86. Magnificent pack...just magnificent.
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 12:42 AM by BrklynLiberal
I know there is a whole family of "Belgian Shepherds", including your dogs, the Tervuren, Malinois, and another that I cannot recall.
I love the eyes and black coat of your Shepherd. They seem to be the best of the collie combined with the best of the German Shepherd.

It looks like Duck-duck is the only one without the white blaze on his chest.

It must be wonderful to have a houseful of incredible furbabies like that.
Right now I have only 1 GSD. He is my second GSD, and now I cannot imagine not having one.

This is Boen. He is now 10 years old
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #86
101. Thank you.
The fourth Belgian is the Lakenois. It has a curly, golden coat. The UKC recognizes them, but the AKC does not. (In Europe, all four varieties; the Groenendale, the Tervuren, the Malinois, and the Lakenois, are considered the same breed.) The AKC does not recognize "Terv" puppies that come from two black parents. It considers that a fault. The same with silver Tervs. (The UKC has a problem with neither.)

You are correct. Duck-duck is the only one without a white spot on his chest. He is not a full "Star-Sapphire Onyx Collie" as we sometimes mischievously tell people who ask, "Is that a black Collie?" He does have some white on his back foot.

Having a pack like this is a continuous experience in group dynamics. They get along pretty well for the most part. Sometimes Rose gets a verbal lashing from one of the other dogs, but she usually deserves it.

Boen looks like a good boy. (Skritches head.)
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #101
141. Thanks for the info.
I guess you have to make sure they all know that the leader of the pack is YOU.

Boen is a real sweetheart. Both of my shepherds have been momma's boys, so I have been lucky. Very sweet and very devoted....and very smart.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
100. My pound-found Miss Mattie


Her ears are a bit floppy, but her coat is the same and she even has a tiny white tuft on her chest.

I have no idea what her lineage is, but she's an instinctive herder and "mom" and I love her to bits even if she does bark too much.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #100
104. Is she barking to get your attention?
Dante likes to sit on the couch and look out the window. (That's his job. He watches.) When he barks, we go over to the window to see what he looking at. We tell him, "Oh yeah, I see it. Good job." He usually stops barking at that point. He's just telling us, "There is something out there. Should we be concerned?"
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #104
109. No, I think she just likes to bark ;-)
She's especially good at barking at rabbits, and we have a lot of them in the morning and evening. Lots. And birds, especially the woodpeckers who get in the big cactus by the front door. She also barks at horses, and we have quite a few of them moseying down the road these days, too. And she barks at us and at the other dogs, both mine and the neighbors'. She always has a REASON for barking, either to alert us to something she finds worthy of an alert -- rabbit, bird, cat, etc. -- or to express excitement and pleasure.

She pays no attention to the coyotes.

Mattie was picked up off the streets as a stray somewhere in northern New Jersey and taken to a traditional "pound." She had been spayed and was very well behaved and house-trained, so was subsequently adopted by a no-kill shelter, from which my daughter obtained her. The barking was too much for my daughter's neighborhood (and ordered sensibilities) so Mattie was sent to me in Phoenix 3+ years ago.

BF finds the barking annoying at times, but I'm much more tolerate. It's my house and she's my dog, so you can tell how THAT discussion ends!

I was going to post some other pictures but found I don't have any really good ones of just Mattie. I'll see about fixing that situation today.


TG, dog person
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SpookyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
137. Oh. My. God.
I had to prepare Comrade Snarky before I showed him those pics of you dogs. Told him to brace himself... :rofl: Those are much loved, cared for dogs!

I LOVE Belgian Sheepdogs! That breed is high on our list of puppies, although I think we're figuring to get a Flatcoat Retriever when the time comes. (soon...I hope)

We already have a name picked out, and people have already bought us toys. "Smedley" is the most loved non-existent dog in history! :-)


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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #137
152. Thank you.
We were thinking about flat coated retrievers as another breed to get into, too.

"Smedley" is a great name!


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SpookyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. I abslotely adore Flat Coats!
They are the perfect dog for us in temperament, intelligence and personality. Retrievers in general are my favorite, but I love all dogs, really.

The only issue with Flat Coats is the high incidence of soft tissue cancer that the breeders are working hard to breed out. They have the potential now to die pretty young, which given how hard I bond with my animals would just break my heart. But every FC person I've spoken with says a few years with one is better than not having one at all.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
62. Here's one of mine
He was number 13 last year and I didn't have enough money to really show him this year.

I think, like in any other endeavor, there are good and bad people involved. My breed is a very natural breed with very few health problems.

There are a lot of unsavory characters out there breeding Shibas, but educated people can easily avoid them.

I do hips, knees, eyes and thyroid. My dogs range from 13 (who is extremely healthy) down to a year.

To lump all people involved into an evil category is extremism and I'm sick of seeing it on DU.

Your dogs are gorgeous.



And a couple more...





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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Very pretty.
I don't see many where I live. There was a Shiba in one of our training classes, and I wanted to talk to the owner about it, but never got the opportunity.

I know what you mean about cutting back on showing because of cash restraints. Often, my girlfriend and I would say, "With gas, hotel, entries, food, etc. this is gonna cost at least $200. Do we want to spend that for the chance at a couple of points?" Fortunately, we have had a string of nearby shows to attend.

I agree that it's very frustrating to be lumped in with evil categories, from both sides of the argument. I have breeder friends that feel the Humane Society and PETA are just as evil. Like politics, it all depends on where you get your information and how you arrive at your opinions.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. It's an expensive hobby
But I look over my shoulder and I have four of my "kids" lying on the sofa behind me (yup, four shibas on the same couch, LOL) and they bring such joy to my life. I enjoy showing and my local club is full of people who care about the lives and health of their dogs and about the breed in general. Shibas are an ancient breed and are protected by the Japanese society for the preservation of native Japanese dogs. It's quite insulting when extremists lump all dog breeders into one category.

People who look for the bad in showing will find it - but I can find the bad in little league sports - and the stories I can tell about competing in Academic Decathalon in high school would curl your hair.

My dogs are healthy and happy and I know where every single dog I've brought into this world (in 15 years) is. When I chose my breed, I purposefully chose a breed that was "natural" and had few health issues.

It's so frustrating. And if people think I make money from breeding dogs, they got another think coming! I spend more than I make on my dogs - it's not even close. But I only breed one or at the most, two litters a year. And Shibas have small litters.

I love all the Belgian breeds and your dogs are beautiful and look healthy and happy.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Dogs are the joy in my life.
Since my last posting, we've been out in the yard playing tug with the stick and catch with the racquetball. The pressure they put on me was intense! I should be writing my school essays on the US Attorneys firings, human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, and military tribunals of Guantanamo detainees, but what's the fun in that?

All the friends we have are dog friends. All the vacations we take are to dog shows. All the extracurricular activities we do are dog-related. They've given me my social life, and to them I am grateful. They've made me so happy, tending to their every need is the least I can do.
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. The point is in other breed registries there are CONTROLS--
and the AKC has none, leaves it up to the parent organization, which generally have no breeding restrictions. In the FCI JGHV dogs must pass tests, have health evaluations, and endure x-rays and blood work before the dog will even have its Ahnentafel stamped "Approved for Breeding". In the AKC, there are few restrictions other than an AKC registration.

People will be people, and there will always be good and bad. The European breed registries take up the mantle of ensuring healthy, stable dogs, and good breeding practices. Are they fool-proof? Certianly not, but are they better than anything over here? Mostly, yes.

The fact that in America, you could breed two dysplasiac dogs and still register the pups says a lot. It hurts the animals, and contributes to the whole "puppy mills" scenario, as there are no breed wardens who inspect the litters, the facilities, or the brood bitches.

Sorry, but the AKC prepetuates the problems because they refuse to enforce controls. It's about money.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #72
142. I don't have a problem with that
I already do the right thing. I have no problem with controls in breeding. My own ethics require me to do health checks and be diligent when finding homes for my puppies. I am actually an advocate for the European system within my breed club.

Most of the people I know in the dog world are devoted to their dogs and do right by them. The people in it for the money are the problem, not the average exhibitor at local events.

There does need to be reform - but calling for the extermination of pure-bred dogs and dog sports (such as showing, agility, tracking, carting, lure coursing, filed trials, etc) won't solve the problem.

The main problem in purebred dogs come from puppy millers and mass sellers/breeders of dogs. The next largest problem comes from people with a "win at all costs" mentality. European style Dog Wardens will help with the people who do the wrong thing because they care more about winning than they do about the dog.

Solving the puppy miller problem will be more difficult. It starts through education and runs all the way through regulations - but here's the problem. When AKC started cracking down on the puppy millers, the puppy millers went and started their own registries.

AKC has lost a lot of revenue to the point where they are struggling - precisely because they tried to do something about the mass breeders.

I do my part trying to educate people looking for dogs, but so many people want what they want and they want it now, that it's pretty disheartening. They don't want to be educated and you can't force them.

That said, I have seen a vast improvement over the past 15 years.

I don't usually bother typing something this long here on DU and I haven't even scratched the surface of the problems and the real-world solutions. Yet, I've already been called a backyard breeder, told to fuck off and been compared to a Nazi (all deleted by mods, including my post to the person who said "fuck all breeders" in which I responded with a tongue in cheek - a hearty fuck you right back atcha.

It's a struggle and there are people in the dog world trying to do the right thing. Inflammatory posts here on DU do little to help.

As a little aside - whenever a person makes and entry to a dog show, they are given the choice to donate a buck to the AKC health foundation - which does important work and has been responsible for some not insignificant breakthroughs in dog health. Almost everyone I know in dogs makes that donation. So painting everyone with the ogre, money-grubber brush is not only factually incorrect, but also pretty unfair.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #62
87. What gorgeous Shiba Inus!!!!!
Have you gotten addicted to the Shiba puppycam yet?
The puppies were 7 weeks old on Tuesday.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/shiba-inu-puppy-cam
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. It doesn't work
On my computer -- I do a puppycam with every litter for the past 5 years or so. I have pups due in January :)
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. Keep us posted. Sorry you cannot get to that one. It is wonderful.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #91
116. Oh, be sure to post your puppy cam in GD when it's up.
I want to see that!
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #116
140. Seeing
All the anti-breeder people here at DU, I'll probably PM you the link. I'm kind of sick of the bullshit from the sanctimonious assholes.

If conscientious breeders like me and a few others on this thread didn't breed dogs, the only place for people who want a certain breed of dog will have to go is to pet stores and puppy millers.

And the extremists will insist no one should be breeding dogs, just like other extremists who think no one should eat meat, drive a car, hunt... and the list goes on and on.

I'm proud of my "kids" and I know in my heart that they live happy, healthy and long lives of pampering.

I know where every puppy I've ever bred is, my dogs live a long time - I have a 13 (almost 14) year old sitting next to me right now. She and her 11 year old son look and act like young dogs.

People who say all pure bred dogs are a genetic nightmare don't know what they are talking about.

I spend more time educating people about dogs than I do breeding and selling dogs. While I do show my dogs, they are my pets first and live a damned good life.

Of course there is a dark side to the show world, but there is a dark side to everything people do - it's human nature. But to lump all dog fanciers into a mass of greedy, negligent Mengele's is ridiculous.

I have personally chosen not to have children, yet the only time I tell people they shouldn't be breeding just to have their own biological children when there are so many kids needing homes out there, I'm saying it sarcastically.

I'm sorry to unload on you, but threads like this are really upsetting to me.

The goal of many of the animal rights activists is to end companion animals. It's their endgame. Dogs and humans have a symbiotic relationship - it's good for both species and I think these people forget that sometimes.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #140
145. Please do keep my user name and then PM me when you have your
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 05:51 PM by tblue37
puppycam up. I delight in watching them grow up. I spend a shameful amount of time watching the Shiba Inu puppy cam that is up there right now. They are darling little creatures--and they grow up into such handsome dogs!
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #87
102. Ohmigosh.
They are so cute!
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #62
114. Have you tuned in yet to the Shiba Inu puppycam?
Three boy pups and three girl pups. Very cute.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/shiba-inu-puppy-cam
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SpookyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
139. They are so good!
Funny, I had never heard of the breed before this, http://www.ustream.tv/channel/shiba-inu-puppy-cam

Your dogs are lovely. :-)

Speaking for myself, it's not breeders or showing dogs per se that gets my blood pressure up, it's the seemingly arbitrary beauty standards that cause some breeders to do bad things to the bloodline to get the "right" look, or people who cut up their dogs to get stand up ears or no tail or something. I dearly love dogs and have no problem with intelligent, responsible breeding.

I wish the breeders of Flatcoat Retrievers, my favorite dog, could get the soft tissue cancer issue sorted out. Flatcoats are too fine a dog to go away.

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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #139
144. Thanks
My dogs bring a lot of joy to my life and I try to return the favor on a daily basis.

Shibas are a very natural breed - no docking, no mutilating the ears, hell, you don't even trim the coat, LOL!

But -- they are a very difficult breed - one of the reasons I love them so much ;)

I'm using the popularity of the puppy cam to educate about Shibas at just about every opportunity.

Shibas.org is the best site if anyone wants to learn more about them.

I put a puppy cam on every one of my litters, but they've never gotten that popular! Good thing.

I have pups due the first week of January and I'll do a webcam on them like I always do.
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SpookyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #144
153. How are they difficult?
Is it a socialization issue?

Oh, please do let us know when the puppy cam is up. I have to live puppies vicariously right now, although my cats are part Main Coon so they're bigger than some dogs. ;-)
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yellowdogintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #30
123. That is a gorgeous dog there. Looks happy too. nt
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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
36. Don't go to Germany or Italy
If you want a dog, go to your local animal shelter or humane society. The money you'll pay for neutering and shots (which all responsible groups insist your animal get before adoption) will be the best investment you've ever made.

The AKC sucks.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
43. My mixed breed puppy from a shelter
is better looking than a show dog..

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. She IS beautiful
Chow/border collie? :shrug:
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. thanks
Well, I got him because his face looks like my last dog, which was a leonberger (giant breed). He has a naturally docked tail and the energy of an Australian shepherd. So I guess he is basically anybody's guess!

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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
77. Your dog looks like a full-bred border collie pup
The pic you posted on the right in a Leonberger. The one on the left is a BORDER COLLIE, even if the source on the picture says otherwise. I own two, and herd with them. I can't see ANY Leonberger in your pup.

This is what an Australian Shepherd looks like:
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. Well- I really don't know what he is-
but he has a naturally docked tail, which you see in australian shepherds and not in border collies (as far as I know). I had a border collie/lab mix years ago and Ollie does remind me a little of her except that he doesn't bark much.

The vet who did his intake at the shelter identified him as a leonberger mix- its hard to see in the pictures, but he has light colored ears and a mane that give him the look of a leo's face. Also, he is very big boned and weighs 50 lbs at 6 months. I think he is a giant breed mixed with a smaller herding dog. He has a leo personality.

Side view- his body type looks like australian shepherd, but not the coat.

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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Looks like your puppy might have some belgian Sheepdog in there.
This is my dog Rose.

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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. beautiful
:hi:
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Thank you.
Leonbergers are cool. :hi:
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
48. Watching the Purina Dog Show
Do yourself a favor: DON'T WATCH.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Precisely
If you don't like it, don't watch it. god knows I don't.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
53. i hate it too!
coz the never let min-pins win dammit! :grr:

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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Neither do the belgian Sheepdogs.
There's usually a commercial interruption for Petco when they come on.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #53
65. My breed never wins either
The Shiba in the show today is a littermate to one of my dogs.

Here's my boy -- he and his brother look exactly alike.



I missed the show today but they usually go to commercials when the Shiba is due up.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #53
117. My son has a German Pinscher pup (about 8 months old now).
She is very pretty. They are midsized, sort of halfway between Dobermans and minipins.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
57. Don't even get me started on what they've done to the Cocker Spaniel.
My first dog was a Cocker, a great dog. She had been a stray who just showed up at ny house when I lived in the country. She was with me for 8 years, before dying of cancer of the spleen. When she died, I started researching the breed, thinking I'd find another one. The more I read, the more I realized how lucky I had been to have a good dog with a gentle temperament. The more I read about how the AKC had ruined the breed by breeding for looks and ignoring temperament, the more I decided not to get another cocker.

I'm on my second beagle, a gentle, friendly girl. In my line of work, I need a trustworthy, friendly dog. I hope the cocker one day meets those criteria. But the AKC's stupid standards don't help.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #57
119. I think today's overbred cockers are mostly famous for nonstop piddling just
about everywhere.
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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
58. And whatever dog takes Best of Show will be a
genetic DISASTER. But you won't be able to see it, so no points off for genetic abnormalities.

I did hear that the AKC has put it's foot down about breeding practices involving the Pug. No more smooshed faces - because they have to lay on an ice pack to stay cool due to their short snouts being unable to cool their brains.

I have Collies with abnormal eyes, another genetic disaster because breeders wanted a smaller eye. Some Collie pups are even born WITHOUT eyes. Is that small enough for ya?

They also have a gene defect that makes them unable to metabolize certain drugs. But breeders in Europe are working to correct all of these problems, why can't breeders here follow their lead? They have huge, detailed databases and that's how dogs are bred. Genetic defect? Sorry. You're not encouraged to breed it, and if you're caught, your name is published and you are black listed for good.

Open. Up. The. Gene. Pool.
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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. Correction
It's the Pekinese, not Pug. It's in the UK, not AKC. Maybe someday soon.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2089/pg_dtl_art_ne...
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
60. Oh I hate them with a passion.
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
61. Can't disagree. I'm looking for coonhound pups, preferably redbone coonhounds.
I've spent way too long poking around the web. Do you know another search tag than AKC that might help?

They are great dogs...that black retriever looks happy.
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. For good hounds look to UKC dogs.
They have tests for them and are generally considered the best breed registry for hounds. Also try Full Cry Magazine for a list of working hounds and reputable breeders.
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Thank you! Never heard of either before.
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 09:45 PM by mahina
Our Mollydog, she died at 13 years old just three months back. I'm not really ready, just researching for one day. Really appreciate the lead.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. She looked like a sweetie. (Trying not to cry.)
United Kennel Club is a real family oriented organization. Very informal and loose. Not at all like AKC.

I have a particular grievance with the UKC. They have something that is exclusive to the Belgians. It's called "assisted animation." Basically, someone holds your dog while you try to keep its attention. The judge critiques your dog and the scribe takes notes. It goes on for a long time, and it's boring for everyone involved. While it's nice to have a written critique of your dog (Good luck getting anything from a AKC judge. In fact, it's improper to ask for that.), it takes so damn long that should you win, you will most likely miss your chance to go to group. A real pisser since you paid it (the chance to progress.)
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #71
98. She and her brother were the greatest. Just the very best idea ever.
Thanks again for the info. We're here to learn how to love, and good dogs teach us how.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #67
168. 100% Purebred Western WA Bronze Retriever (and his cat) here...
He's aging also, hoping to have him for another yr or 2. Got him from a shelter, big doofus mixedbreed dog.




Pict taken by another DUer:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
166. The only coonhound the AKC recognizes is the black and tan.
The other coonhound breeding clubs have had the good sense to not deal with the AKC. Thus, they're still breeding good dogs. Look to the UKC, or just google "redbone coonhound".
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
70. The Border Collie people sued to keep the BC out of the AKC, but were unsuccessful
Due mainly to some agility and obedience BC people. They have "conformed" AKC BCs from a historical breed bred only for working ability into poofy dogs with no drive or herding instinct.Both of our dogs are NOT AKC registered, but ABCA. I know the Cavalier, Portuguese Water Dog, and other groups also have non-AKC lines.

Plus, their main source of income is PUPPY MILL registrations.

They suck, and they certainly seem to hate dogs.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #70
97. Yes, that is true.
This is a border collie




Not this



AKC is a corporation with only one purpose, making money. If they could make more money killing puppies and marketing their remains, that's what they would be doing.


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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #97
118. Yep, our two look like the top one
Except our male is a short hair B&W with ticking (people always think he's a Heeler mix) and our bitch is a B&W rough.

He came from top sheepherding lines, and her parents worked on a cattle ranch in Arizona.
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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #97
131. Top one looks like it saw some sheep
I saw my first sheepdog trial this summer and was I impressed! Those dogs could really handle the sheep, actually getting them to go where their trainer wanted them. And you could still see some of the old wolf traits in the dogs in how they handled the sheep. Now *that's* the kind of criteria working dogs should be measured by - not how exaggerated they look.

We always had shelter dogs, and they worked out just fine.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. She does, that's her job and she lives for it.
I happen to know her, her name is Dally and she is a recently spayed champion that was rescued directly from a neglectful redneck.

My favorite event is the duck herding, just freaking hilarious. The dogs can't round them up the same way because the duck try to fly off, so they have to stay back and still keep them in a group and moving the right direction, and of course they can't nip at the birds. I've seen the dogs leap 5ft. in the air and smack the ducks back down to the rest with their snouts. It's very impressive.

The bottom dog is a "show dog" and if you look closely you can see that her hips are already disintegrating. It is so sad to see what these people have wrought.


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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #131
151. Well, the way they herd sheep is modified wolf behavior
They go through the stalking without the killing part.

Mick, our oldest dog, has a great "eye." When he crouches down to herd (or even to prepare to chase a tennis ball), he stalks it, and his eyes get really intense and just go flat black. It's definitely intimidating. He did it once to someone at the dog park, and the guy said, "if I didn't know those dogs did that, I'd think he was getting ready to tear my throat out."

When he was younger, the rams could sometimes stare him down, and now, they can't stare him down. I watched him back down a ram who was trying to head butt him a couple weeks ago. It was pretty cool.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
74. Agreed.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
76. I got crabbed at by a breeder today
when I made a comment about the Obamas choosing a shelter dog over one provided by the AKC. She did not approve, of course, because a breeder will "help" them select the right dog, whereas the shelter people don't know how to match dogs with people & then the kids would cry when they have to take the dog back & have it put down.....dinner couldn't end fast enough for me after that point. :grr: :grr: :grr:


dg
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #76
81. I picked my dog from a shelter 500 miles away
when I saw his picture on petfinder. People often DO know how to find dogs that are right for them and don't need a shelter telling them!

The thing is- if you can afford to have a professional train the dog and its owners, its unlikely that there are going to be lasting problems. I'm sure the Obamas will have someone to give them a hand.

I have nothing against purebreds, but they can be expensive and there are such an oversupply of shelter dogs facing euthanasia that it seems like a good thing for the president to go that route. Its a good example.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #76
93. Let me guess
For 800 bucks you get the dog that's perfectly matched to you, right?

Whereas the shelter's 100 adoption fee (including shots and spaying) goes right into the pockets of the wealthy shelter employees. :eyes:
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #93
158. Yup yup yup
You know those shelter employees are living high on the hog..."volunteers" my right foot. :sarcasm:

dg
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #76
96. I wish I'd been there, I've chased those scum out of pet stores and trials
more than a few times.


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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
78. As long as the dogs aren't hurt, I don't really have opinion.
But, I wanted to show you my three rescues: a cocker (looks pure), a Golden retriever (pure) and a pure, unadulterated (LOL!) Heinz 57 (Rottie? Chow - has black on her tongue - and terrier????)





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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #78
90. All three look like they are well loved and very happy. They are lucky to have ended up with you.
I am sure you are more than happy to have them in your life...
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
79. You mean the puppy mill apologists/supporters AKC?
Yeah, they get no love from me.
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yewberry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
82. Agreed. To Hell with the AKC.
They encourage destructive characteristics within breeds. They encourage people to breed dogs, when we, as a nation, euthanize millions of "unwanted" dogs every year.

Seriously, fuck them.

And sorry, all of you backyard breeders, fuck you, too. We have enough dogs, more than we can take care of. It doesn't matter if your puppies "all go to loving homes"--if you didn't have any puppies, the people in those homes would find dogs without your help. Maybe they'd even find a dog they'd want through the pound or other adoption service, and we'd have one or two less dogs killed because no one wanted them.

Do the math, folks. It's not hard.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #82
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
88. Look at what they have done to Dachshund
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #88
167. Wow. Talk about not being functional!
That thing could no more squeeze down a badger hole than I can fly!

Damn that AKC! :)
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
95. They are pure evil and destroy every breed they "recognize". Combined with the entertainment
industry, which popularizes breeds by making them well-known, fame is the death-knell of any breed that is picked up in film and television.

I believe the Alsatian, or German Shepard was the first victim. Prior to Rin Tin Tin (who was actually a rip-off of another Alsatian, Strongheart), the breed was a typical working dog that earned a living doing a job, herding and protecting the herd from predators. Once he was made famous, people just had to get one of those amazing dogs, and the rest is history.

Today's poor creatures are a genetic disaster, having had just about every non-cosmetic defect bred into them, hip dysplasia, hearing defects, blood disorders, they even had the very intelligence they were famed for damaged by breeding for head shape (as was the rough coat collie with Lassie).

Love your dogs, boycott the AKC and all their sponsors.

Spay/neuter, adopt from rescues and shelters, and help spread the word. The AKC is about one thing and one thing only making money, they couldn't care less about the animals they promote.



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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
99. I'd like to see them emphasize performance over conformation.
Shouldn't the best example of a breed of dog be one that not only looks great but can perform the traditional job for which it was bred?

Dog breeds developed because they were good for a particular use that people required. Breeding for conformation alone is a recipe for breed disaster--especially since the fasionable standards often work against the best interest of the breed.

I'd like to see a two part road to the championship. First performance. The dog should have a certain number of points in whatever its traditional discipline happens to be. Border Collies should be able to herd. Retrievers should be able to retrieve. Allright, we probably wouldn't want to have the bulldog types doing what they were already bred for--tormenting other animals--but there should be some sort of way to judge whether the dog would have been good at it's traditional work if someone did decide to hold a bull baiting.

I'd also like to see them have points in agility or obedience.

Once a dog has it's performance points it could then go on to the traditional conformation classes.

This would mean a major change in the mindset of breeders and the AKC and is of course seriously unlikely to ever be considered.

As for myself I have an All American border collie? who looks like he has some springer spaniel back in his gene pool. He's a good dog so what the hell.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #99
106. Well, if performance came first then conformation would change to recognize fitness for tasks
and you've give some thought to the whole thing. Thanks
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #106
130. I'm a horse person far more than a dog person.
We have the same sort of issues--although a bit less extreme.

You have, for example, the American Quarter Horse, which has become almost three or four distinctive breeds. There's the racng type, the pleasure type (English & Western have different standards), the stock horse type and the halter type. The halter type is bred for a distinct look. They tend to be very big bodied with beautiful heads and at least before they changed the standards, tiny little feet. Tiny little feet on a big heavy horse are an invitation to degenerative diseases such as laminitis and navicular. They are also prone to certain genetic disorders because very popular stallions passed these disorder to their offspring. Reputable breeders screen out horses carrying genetic disorders. As for those who don't care, they're still passing it along. I may be wrong but I beleive that the AQHA will still register horses that carry the HYPP gene.

The Arabian halter horse went through a big boom in the 80s & 90's. Beautiful, electric and frequently psychotic they were often pathetic as riding horses. When the boom went bust many of them ended up on European dinner plates. Fortunately the Arabians breeders seem to have put more emphasis on performance and temperment these days.

Then of course there's the horse breed in which performance and only performance matters. That would be the Thoroughbred. Thoroughbred breeders breed for speed and certain bloodlines are definately favored. This worked OK back in the day when the only cure for a broken leg was a bullet and painkilling drugs were banned (though naturally people tried to cheat). Genetic weaknesses were by and large screened out. Now horses run on painkillers and steroids. A few flashy performances as a two or three year old and a horse will stand at stud for hundreds of thousands of dollars even if his career was cut short by injury and he comes from a line with genetic weaknesses. Doesn't matter to them, they're selling the steroid enhanced beast as a yearling for megabucks. As a result, the breed has weakened to the point where you watch the big races and pray that no horse will break down before your eyes like Barbaro did a few years ago in the Preakness and Eight Belles did in this year's Kentucky Derby. Of course if Barbaro hadn't developed laminitis as a consequence of complications from surgury, he no doubt would have been in the breeding shed, passing down his weakness to his offspring. This year's Kentucky Derby hero, Big Brown, he of the steroid enhanced performance and the notoriously bad feet will be contributing to the gene pool next year. Whoopie.

The European breeders have a system in which a horse has to pass inspection that includes conformation and performance before it is allowed to breed. That's something that I'd love to see other horse breeds adopt and also dog breeders.

It's only fair to the animals.



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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #130
143. Despite what is "in" in AQHA circles I breed Foundation Quarter Horses, tough, stocky, and smart...
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 05:47 PM by demodonkey

I had a stallion who was 100% Foundation -- no added Thoroughbred since before the AQHA was founded in 1940. He had brains, great temperament, big strong feet and legs, and was solid as a rock.

http://www.sunnyksootzz.com

I have some of Sootzz's foals and grandfoals standing at stud and/or for lease as broodmares if anyone is interested in a raising a good, solid, smart, sensible, and healthy Quarter Horse! ;-)

Sootzz's Palomino half brother Sunny K Jazz (91% foundation, 14.2 hands, and TOTALLY different from what is "in style" now in the Quarter Horse world) was the first horse in Pennsylvania (and the first Palomino nationally) to achieve the AQHA Superior All-Around. He has points in 7 AQHA events (including Open Hunter Hack, Poles, Barrels, Trail, and Sr. Western Pleasure!), an AQHA Open ROM (Register of Merit), points in over 12 PHBA (Palomino Horse Breeders of America) events, several PHBA ROMs, and was top-10 in the nation in PHBA Pleasure Driving five times, and the PQHA State Champion All-Around Horse in 1995. Jazz is now 25 and is still rideable, driveable, and showable. He is still as happy as a clam and still way out of style.

I will never let AQHA "fashions" or anyone else dictate to me what kind of horse, especially when it requires breeding in bad traits and physical problems that cause animals to suffer for the sake of winning.

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #143
157. Sunny was gorgeous. Did you breed him?
Wow. What a horse.
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #157
165. Thanks, yes we did breed him. I have two of his sons, and five daughters here.
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 06:34 PM by demodonkey

Thanks for your kind words. Yes he was a good horse -- happy, sane, and sound to the day he died (pretty much of old age.)

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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #143
161. Foundation quarter horses are great
They're what the breed was supposed to be, tough and versatile horses that can work all week and rodeo or show on the weekend.
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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
107. my MIL and SIL both breed AKC champion labs
they take great care in their animals. All are very healthy animals, and yeah, they could go kill a rabit or retreive a duck if that's what you wanted them for. All are checked with the vet prior to breeding, all pups are taken care of at the vets with hip examinations along with a host of other tests. They produce healthy dogs.


From my MIL:

Labradors are bred for health, versatility and conformation.All of our girls are OFA certified for hips and elbows and eyes are cleared for PRA and other inherited eye disease. All sires of litters also have the same clearances. We breed for a temperament that is happy to live quietly with you in your home, but is ready to go have fun when you are. We have also made an effort to keep our Labradors "Retrievers" by breeding to lines or Sires that have proven ability to function as a retriever,
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
108. I had the same reaction to the thick-bodied Australian Shepherd
that won best of class among the herding dogs. I was thinking, When did Australian Shepherds get so darned wide and stumpy?
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
113. I disagree. the AKC publishes Standards for every breed


they acknowledge. At AKC breed shows the Judges pick the dogs that best fit the standard. this includes temperament.

it is up to the breeders to breed to the Standard.

I'll stick up for the AKC as breeding/showing/training dogs was my business (and pleasure) for a long time.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. I'm sure the deformed dogs you brought into this world loved it too. n/t
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #115
121. you are daft
nt
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. Am not!
I can do this all day.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #113
120. Then, you're part of the problem
Breeding dogs for looks and not purpose is a really bad idea, and unfortunately, the dogs suffer for humans greed.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. dogs are not bred for 'looks'


have you ever read a Breed Standard?
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #122
127. Yes, I have
They're being bred to look a certain way, despite what you say.

If they're not, then why are conformation bred German Shepherds deformed creatures, while working ones are not? Why do conformation "Border Collies" look entirely different than a real, working Border Collie?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. They've cast their evil eye on my beloved Greyhounds now, and as they do with every breed they
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 01:39 PM by greyhound1966
"recognize" their destroying the dog's purpose to breed for conformation, or appearance. In fact, racing kennels (another tragedy and another topic) are trying to figure out how to keep these awkward, ugly, tanks from being confused for racers.

Every breed they touch, they destroy. The Bushes of the canine world.



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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #122
159. bull shit
they bred the intelligence out of "Lassie" dogs because some asshat in the AKC thought it would be "cool" to have a dog with a pointed head. No room for the brain in the pointy head.

dg
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #113
148. and most of the judges have no clue
Look at the sporting groups. How many judges have ever spent a day afield, let alone a day working behind a dog afield. I am sure that fat old sixty year old lady in the Prada sandals is a die hard duck hunter....LOL! They have NO IDEA what benefits a working dog, for the most part, and they rely on what they THINK is good.


They breed for looks, and a modern show lab could not last two hours in the uplands.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #148
162. becoming an AKC Judge is no easy task. they must know the


breed(s) they judge inside out and upside down. that includes hunting, racing, etc. abilities.

it takes time to prove your breeding program. and more time to prove your judging abilities at non sanctioned shows.

that old woman judge knows more about dogs then you could ever hope to know.
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WindRiverMan Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #162
164. Bullshit, bullshit , and more bullshit.
There is a reason the FCI will NOT recognize dogs registered from the AKC, and that is because the FCI requires working dogs to do just that.....PROVE that they can work at a high level before being bred. American dogs can only be bred and registered with other American dogs. Most of the rest of the world uses teh FCI, but the FCI will not recognize and cross register AKC dogs. That is because people "who know the breed inside and out" like that piece of shit old lady who never sat her ass in a cold duck blind with a wet dog with ice forming on his whiskers, have changed the breed standards to suit their idea of beauty and not performance conformation. They require no tests for ability or health prior to being allowed to be bred, and as such, they breed extreme bullshit that may be pleasing to their eyes, but serves no other purpose. It's the doggie equivalent of hiring a secretary who cannot type or file but has big titties and a tight ass. They are a joke, and only know their own bullshit.

They may know more about grooming and making a dog stack correclty, but it ends about there.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #113
160. The "standards" are just a list of what is fashionable
All white German shepherds, for example, are considered seriously flawed. They may be 100% German shepherd, but their coat color makes them worthless.

I could write some crappy standard saying that all dogs must have black noses with a white patch on the muzzle, freckles on the stomach and in the mouth, brown eyes, and white hairs on the butt, and be between 18 and 22 inches at the shoulder, and all three of my dogs would fit that standard perfectly. :P

Even though one is a springer mix, one is a cattle dog mix, and one is a border collie mix.

Meanwhile, our old dog who was a lab/cattle dog mix would be thrown out for not having the white on the muzzle. :P
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Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
129. American Kennel Club is like NASCAR
Sport for the Rich$






Since I'm not rich, I don't like either one of them.

ALSO
---> IF I was rich, I still would not like them.
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cushla_machree Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
146. thats what show ring breeders do -- they ruin working breeds
Fox terriers are now so large they cannot go down a fox hole. Many working dogs cannot do the work the dogs were once bred to do. Look at American Bulldogs, had powerful jaws for gripping bulls and pigs, look what happened to them in the last 50 years:




Completely useless and they can't even give birth without cesareans. Show dog breeders need to get a life, I have no good feelings for people who ruin dog breeds for a hobby. I can only hope that eventually people wisen up and start judging for utility again, not a dog's structure and expression. The 'expression' of a saint bernard is of no use, especially if you add on the fact that he can hardly move due to hip dysplasia.

What we can only hope for is that enough people breed true working stock, so that when the show dogs are too riddled with deformities, there is enough breeding stock left to rescue the breed. They wouldn't breed dogs with exaggerated traits if there wasn't a demand for them.

The Jack Russell terrier club of America and the working border collie people are working hard to preserve their breeds. Which also leaves me thoroughly confused, whats the difference between a Jack Russell terrier, a person jack russell terrier, a parson russel terrier, or a russel terrier?

I'd love to see a working dog part of the show ring, if your dog cannot do what it was breed to do, it is disqualified! Wishful thinking.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. Being the owner of two working bred Border Collies
Amen.
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cushla_machree Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #147
156. I love border collies
I live in an apartment now so I stop myself from even thinking about them. I have had a couple of Jack russells...used to jump out my screened windows and end up in woodchuck holes for 4 hours.

I was very upset when the AKC accepted Jack Russell terriers in. I talked to a breeder once who told me her Parson russles and 'shorties ' (read: deformed, achondroplastic dwarfs who are short but who's chest will often be too large for it to go to ground) were calm and not hyper at all. Thats NOT a jack russell. They were bred to be relentless and fearless.
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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #146
149. That is one deforned skull!
How does/did the poor thing swallow, much less breathe?
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cushla_machree Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #149
155. Someone has to stop the AKC
Breeders will continue to breed what wins, and people will buy what they think the breed should look like. The Kennel Club sets the rules that guarantee more and more dogs will suffer genetic problems.

Someone told me i should catch this program:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/...

I saw an awful article on boston terriers and how bad their genetics are the other day! I also heard the Shar-Pei is so wrinkled now the poor dogs suffer from serious sores.
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