6 myths about the Detroit 3

[DainBramaged]

The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.

Reality

General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.

Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.

Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.

Reality

The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.

Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.

Reality

All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008811170379

And my personal favorite never mentioned, why aren't Japanese cars cheaper, they don't have the UAW building them. Ah greed, the universal quality hidden by the marketing.

[apnu]

1. yeah there are many untruths in th public concisous about US cars.

I'm a loyal US automaker buyer. Every new car I've ever owned has been a Ford. When Ford released the Escape Hybrid, I jumped on one and proudly drive it to this day. I love that car, and further I love driving a US product. I'm proud to buy American.

and all of these myths, are disproven by my car. It is well designed and built, safe and fuel efficient.

[melm00se]

2. these myths

are examples of what having a stretch of producing sub-performing cars can have to a specific brand. 5 of 6 of these myths were truths at one point but now corrected.

As to the japanese: they charge and people pay for what they consider the value of the product. Why charge $10,000 when the customer is more than willing to pay $14,000? Product pricing is a balancing game between cost, supply, demand, and (perceived) value.

[DainBramaged]

5. A Honda Civic is a perfect example. A loaded Cobalt sells for $16,000 (LTZ model)

a stripped Civic for $18,000. Stupid is as stupid does. Ever drive a Honda through a car wash and then listen to the roof sing and ripple when the air dryer hits it? American cars don't do that.

Honda did a commercial in 2007 showing a body in white sitting in the woods with an owl sitting on it, rabbits, chipmunks, deer all around it. Know what the marketing firm found out from the research? People though Honda was animal and eco-friendly, and all they were doing (supposedly) was telling people how strong their bodies were. What a scam. Stupid is as stupid does.


When the sludge runs down.

[JVS]

20. Starting MSRP for Honda Civic $15,405

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/

The Cobalt isn't worth the risk.

[grace0418]

46. All most of us have is personal experience (or experience of those we know).

Just a few examples: My dad bought Fords, and they all sucked. He had to get the engine on his Escort wagon replaced twice in the span of 5 years, and junked it before it was 10 years old. My brother had similar problems with his Ford Explorer. He lives part of the year in Park City, UT and needs a reliable vehicle that can get him up the steep snowy hill to his house. He never had anything close to reliability with his Explorer. He definitely feels he has that with his Toyota Highlander. My carpool mate bought a small Ford pick-up about 4 years ago because he was doing some furniture building and wanted to be able to haul stuff back to his house. Within 2 years he traded it in because he couldn't stand how often he had problems with it and how flimsy it was trying to drive it in Chicago winters. I can vouch for how difficult it was to drive when the weather got bad. My little Civic handled MUCH better in the snow. He now loves his Honda CRV.

Personally, I've never bought an American car because I knew too many people among my friends and family who had problems with them. To be fair, I also don't buy VWs for the same reason. The two Hondas I've owned have been fantastic. My Civic is almost 10 years old and I've had no problems with it. It runs like a charm with just basic maintenance and I've never had problems in a car wash or anywhere else. Call people like me "stupid" all you want, but I'm very happy with my choice.

[SteelPenguin]

117. Same

I hear the statistics and stuff and my eyebrows raise. Of all the people I know there are tons of stories of bad cars they had and they're always american. Always. I don't know a single story of someone complaining about a non-american car, other than a Volkswagon. I've owned 2 Ford's and both were junk (including one from this supposed renaissance of quality in the past decade) including a four year old windstar that literally died and needed more repairs to it's engine than the car was worth. Meanwhile I've owned 2 Honda's and 2 Toyota's and all lasted over a decade with only minor repairs, tuneups, and part replacements.

Everyone I know has similar stories. I don't know anyone who has only had great experiences with Fords and only horrific ones with Honda's. Oh sure someone on a message board might say anything, but I'm talking about people I know in real life who I trust.

After my last experience not only with a 4 year old Ford minivan literally falling apart, but with the dealership involved as well as Ford as a company....I'll never buy another one. Ever.

The other thing...People bring up quality reports on these cars from whoever and prices, and features to buy it new. For me the key is....how will they be running in 3 years? in 6 years? in 10 years? Resale value on Honda's seems to indicate that a 10 year old Honda is still a very practical car to buy. A 10 year old Ford? Good luck.

[DainBramaged]

128. "I don't know a single story of someone complaining about a non-american car"

Oh really????

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

Toyota Recalls Near 800,000 for July

July 19, 2006
Toyota


• Toyota Agrees to Oil-Sludge Settlement
• Toyota Sludge


Toyota has now recalled almost 800,000 vehicles in July, including 8,500 Prius hybrids as well as some Lexus hybrids sold in the U.S. The Japanese automaker is recalling 418,570 vehicles globally, including 150,000 cars sold in the U.S. and Canada because of a faulty crankshaft sensor. The recall includes 8,500 Prius vehicles and 26,200 Echos in the U.S.

Last week Toyota recalled 367,594 SUVs, including hybrids, in the U.S because of loose clips in the floor carpet cover that might cause the accelerator pedal to stick.

The vehicles involved in that recall are the Lexus RX 330 and Toyota Highlander SUVs from 2004 to 2005 model years, and the Lexus RX 400h hybrid and Highlander hybrid SUVs from the 2006 model year.

Earlier in July, Toyota recalled 24,200 vans in Japan.

The three July recalls are the latest in a string of problems at Toyota raising doubts over whether the automaker can maintain quality standards amid booming sales.

The Prius recall for a faulty cranshaft sensor does not involve any hybrid components and Toyota will replace, free of charge, the crankshaft position sensor on recalled vehicles.

Toyota warned owners that the connector for the crankshaft position sensor may become disconnected causing the vehicle to stall. The automaker initiated the recall along with NHTSA.

Toyota said there have been no reported cases of accidents or injuries related to the recalled vehicles.

Toyota reports that because of "improper molding of the resin body of the crankshaft position sensor, engine oil may penetrate the seal and enter the connector" in the recalled vehicles.

"In addition, the shape of the locking tab to secure the sensor's wire- harness connector may be improper. In this condition, the oil may expand due to heat from the engine and deform the connector, as well as create pressure on the locking tab, causing the crankshaft position sensor to become disconnected."

If the crankshaft position sensor becomes disconnected while the vehicle is being driven, the engine will stall and will be unable to restart, according to Toyota.

Toyota will notify owners of the involved vehicles of the recall later this month. Owners are requested to contact their local Toyota dealer for diagnosis and repair upon receiving notification.

Last year, Toyota's recalls in the U.S. more than doubled as the number of recalls industry-wide registered a slight decline.

Toyota says it is working to maintain vehicle quality, even as it increases production to meet worldwide demand for its vehicles


Toyota Agrees to Sludge Settlement for Consumers
Consumers saddled with sludge-clogged Toyota engines may soon get some help from the Japanese auto giant under the terms of a class-action lawsuit settlement that covers roughly 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles damaged by engine oil sludge.

An engine gummed up with oil sludge can cost thousands of dollars to repair and in many cases must be replaced. The class action settlement could potentially cost the automaker hundreds of millions of dollars.

The agreement will allow consumers whose claims have been denied by Toyota to submit those claims to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.

The lawsuit, filed in a Louisiana district court, could receive final approval by the middle of February. Details of the settlement are being mailed to 7.5 million current and previous Toyota and Lexus owners.

The agreement provides owners of sludge-damaged Toyotas eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint.

Toyota consumers who have repaired their sludge-damaged engines may be able to recover their costs. The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge damage.

The terms of the settlement are transferable to future vehicle owners.

Toyota owners have repeatedly written ConsumerAffairs.com detailing Toyota's attempts to blame sludge problems on inadequate vehicle maintenance by the owner.

Charles in Arkansas said: "At 36,000 miles the engine gummed up and quit running. My wife had the oil changed at Wal-Mart and did not keep receipts for the oil changes. The North Little Rock dealer and the Toyota representative told us such problems were rare and that we had caused the problem but for $2,500 they could fix it. They inferred that my wife was a liar," he wrote.

With the new agreement, consumers need only show reasonable maintenance in terms of oil changes.

Toyotas covered by the Louisiana settlement include the:

• Camry 4 cylinder from 1997-2001,
• Camry 6 cylinder from 1997-2002,
• Camry Solara 4 cylinder from 1999-2001,
• Camry Solara 6 cylinder 1999-2002,
• Sienna 6 cylinder from 1998-2002,
• Avalon 6 cylinder from 1997-2002,
• Celica 4 cylinder from 1997-1999,
• Highlander 6 cylinder from 2001-2002,
• Lexus ES 300 from 1997-2002 and
• Lexus RX 300 from 1999-2002.

In 2002 Toyota admitted receiving 3,400 complaints about sludged engines and the automaker extended its vehicle warranty to eight years along with unlimited mileage to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines.

At Toyota dealerships, however, consumers have encountered repeated denials from service managers insisting that sludging occurs primarily when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.

Lauren wrote ConsumerAffairs.com from Tampa, Florida that, "My check engine light came on once again so I immediately returned to Stadium Toyota. The next day, I received a call from Stadium Toyota telling me that my engine is damaged due to engine sludge and it will cost me $4,500 to fix it."

In Lawrenceville, Georgia Valerie ran into a hostile dealer despite Toyota confirming her vehicle was "part of their oil gelling/sludge program. The service dept at the dealership says that I'm not entitled to anything," she wrote.

In Apex, North Carolina Jan heard the bad news from her Toyota dealer.

"They checked it over, then called and said that the engine had sludge in it and it needed a $7,000 to $8,000 repair," she wrote.

"They also said it was my fault, because the oil had obviously not been changed properly. When I purchased the car, the Toyota dealer talked me into a $999 extended warranty plan, which he assured me would cover any major issues that might come up with a car. It is called their Tender Loving Care package."

Edward from Parma, Ohio received the Toyota brush-off despite promises of an extended warranty.

"I called the dealer and was basically told by their customer service manager that they refused to do anything and did not care if I chose to file a lawsuit or anything else, Edward told ConsumerAffairs.com.

Lois from Cedar Rapids is still steaming over her treatment despite promises of an extended warranty.

"We received a letter from Toyota that indicated the engine was covered for a period of 8 years for engine sludge. In February of 2006, at 144,000 miles, the engine started making a loud noise. We were told that our car had 'blown a rod' and needed a new engine. We asked about the previous problem but were told that this was not related to the sludge problem and the car was not covered by Toyota."

The Toyota agreement the court is examining contains no finding of fault by Toyota or its dealers and does not prove Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html

[SteelPenguin]

131. All cars have recalls

The fact is that everyone I know that has had seriously bad experiences with cars, the kind that make you never buy that brand again, it's always with a big three car, and I don't know anyone who has ever said the same about the Japanese cars. have I seen people complain online? sure. I don't know them though. My gut isn't affected by what people on a message board say, only what the people I know in real life say, and I have to temper the statistics I read with my own experiences and stories people I trust have told me, as everyone knows that statistics are easily manipulated.

My personal experieince is that every American car I've had I've loved at first, and it's turned to a varying level of crap within 4 years. My personal experieince is that the last couple times I've had to deal with these cars the dealerships have been horrific (bring it in with one problem and they cause 2 more while it's in the shop then claim they didn't do it), and Ford as a whole couldn't care less.

I was hearing these stories about how American cars were good now, and were'nt crap like they were before when I went and bought my last Ford. I had previous bad experiences, and the stories were still there, but I wanted to buy American so I gave it a shot...and I paid for it big time. For me to buy another one will take a lot.

[DainBramaged]

132. So the Toyoa lawsuit settlement isn't real then?

I AM CONFUSED, you say you never knew anyone who had probems with non-American car, I provide evidence, and then you still say American cars are crap? The suit was REAL not 'on a message board".

sigh.

[grace0418]

142. I believe SP is saying that they don't *personally* know anyone with major problems.

I'm sure I could go find plenty of articles about recalls and lawsuits and problems with *every* auto manufacturer. But the fact remains for me (and apparently for SteelPenguin) that personal experience and the experience of those I know and trust tells me to buy Hondas and Toyotas. You can call me stupid but it doesn't change my experience.

My brother-in-law's 1981 Civic ran like a charm, started the first time even on the coldest winter days, and lived to be passed along to several different family members until it was totalled in crash just a couple years ago. I might add that the driver was uninjured even though they hit a fast moving SUV and both vehicles were destroyed. I don't have a single story like that about an American car from anyone I know. That's what I base my decisions on, not a single article about a recall. Sorry.

[SteelPenguin]

146. Yes you are confused

Every car manufacturer has had numerous recalls, lawsuits, settlements, etc. I make no claim that Toyotas and Honda's are pristine cars that purr like kittens at 200k miles like they had just rolled off the line with no problems ever.

I'm just saying that every big 3 car I've personally owned has turned into junk, the last time in 4 years, and that nobody I know has a horror story about a Honda or a Toyota lemon doing the same. I've had recalls in most cars I've had. My entire family, and all my friends share similar stories. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying that you can post whatever you like about recalls or lawsuits....I know they exist I'm not disputing them. I'm just saying that it's hard for me to reconcile people throwing up statistics or awards or whatever when everything I've PERSONALLY seen is that Ford's in particular are crap.

I fully admit it's anecdotal evidence, but it's anecdotal evidence that left me with a piece of junk and 5k left on the car loan last year on not my first junk big three car, so I'll be damned if I risk money on another American car for quite a while.

[DainBramaged]

148. OK then, we'll see you in the 22nd Century

goodbye (Charlie, write this one off too. Yeah, the guy who thinks no cars are pristine but didn't understand what MAJOR LAWSUIT means).

[SteelPenguin]

154. k have fun

In the meantime work on your reading comprehension.

[DainBramaged]

156. I'm blind in one eye, what's your excuse?

:evilgrin:

[GrizzlyMan]

180. Myth No. 4

You AREN'T completely insane.

[peanut2010]

198. How about the 1995-2000 Tundra Toyota is buying back

They are paying 150 percent of book value then loading them up and sending them straight to the crusher.I have also hauled in several Toyota Camaries with blown engines with between 70 and 80 thousand miles on them.I have a neighbor that had a Toyota Tercel a few years back he replaced the engine twice in less than two years.He now only drives Fords as do I.He has a 88 Ford Ranger that he has driven since 1991 still has original engine.

[taught_me_patience]

110. The true cost of the vehicle is the depreciation

The civic can be resold in 4 years for 11k, while the sucker who bought the Cobalt will be lucky to get 6k in 4 years. American cars depreciate much faster than Japanese counterparts - making them much more expensive to own.

[SteelPenguin]

118. Why do they depreciate?

Is it because they turn into crap sooner?

[taught_me_patience]

136. Ding Ding Ding.

Every American car I've owned turned into a plastic rattle box with a slipping transmission w/in 70k miles.

[Kalyke]

3. I think I love you.

:applause:

Best post of the year!!!


(I love my realiable, affordable and beautiful Mustang)

[DainBramaged]

7. I'm waiting for the Camaro this spring

I get to drive one for a while. Lets see Japan match that.

[Kalyke]

8. LOL...they can't.

First you'd have to give them a definition of "muscle" before they'd even begin to understand what a muscle car is.

[DainBramaged]

12. The V6 will be 306 horsepower with high 20's on the highway

and 0-60 UNDER 6 seconds while stopping from 60 mph to zero in UNDER 120 feet.

Take that Toyota.

And then there will be the SS (hehehehehehehehe)

[Diclotican]

207. DainBramaged

DainBramaged

I do not know about others, but my new (for me) Nissan Primera 2.0l SRI from 1997 have 150-180 horsepower under the good. And it is and 4 Cylinder engine... And if I bouth another electronic ship, I could raise the horsepower to far over 200 horsepower very easy...

But then it is an old Police car, so I guess it is little faster than the common Nissan Primera too:evilgrin: I do not know how fast it could pass 100km a hour or 60mph, but I guess it is less than 6 seconds...

Have had 4 cars in 13 yeas, all been Japanese cars and love them all. From my first Nissan Cherry Datsun (the last line of Datsun before Nissan "owned" Datsun in 1983) and then another Nissan Cherry from 1984. Then a long break, because I could not afford a car all together, but thankfully I live in a area where the bus/train connections is very good.. Then I bought an Toyota Corolla 1.6 16v who I really loved and have for more than 4 year. In the end the old "rust" was killing the car and I have to get rid of the car in the end..And then, my new Nissan Primera.. Who is good, very good to drive, and have a pretty stylish attitude too:evilgrin:

And for the point of things, I was growing up in a family who had a lot of american cars, both the practical once, and the more "much-le cars" type of things.. But in the end it ended with an japanese car there too... Because the american cars just can't get where we lived in the woods and acted as snow sleds in the winter..

So, if US car manufactures was to survive the next decade or so, and was beginning to build cars who the rest of the world wanted, or needed.... Then even I who love my japanese cars would thing twice... And maybe get an american made car in the end.. No promise, but if the big 3 was to build decent, good cars...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Don't forget, they invented Ju Jitsu, and learned centuries ago

that agility is more vital, and reliable, than muscle.

[Kalyke]

36. You're missing the point...

Which is what they do, too.

It's not necessarily about horsepower, although that's a big component.

The larger factor is looks and style. They don't get that. For example, that Hundayi (or however you spell it) below looks like a giant bug.

[RaleighNCDUer]

141. And you are missing the point -

While there will always be a certain market for those needing penile extensions, for most people in the world, and in this country, a car is a car. People are looking for the vehicle with the best combination of affordability, reliability, practicality, functionality, mileage, and style - usually in that order - to meet their families' needs.

If that is not the case, then why do YOU think the big three have been losing market share on a consistent basis for the past 25 years?

Yes, there will always be a market for muscle cars - but most people just want to get to work. You don't succeed in business by concentrating the majority of your resources on a niche market.

[JVS]

25. Laugh it up. Hyundai is planning on releasing an inexpensive 300 hp RWD coupe.

http://jalopnik.com/cars/la-auto-show/la-auto-show-hyundai-rwd-coupe-322863.php

[Kalyke]

33. And it looks like a big bug.

:puke:

[StreetKnowledge]

111. And that will be a rival to the Camaro

But so will the Challenger, Mustang and 350Z. Big whup. How many 25-30K sports coupes have 300+ horsepower, 28 mpg engines? Not 350Z, not Challenger, not Mustang.

Then, we get the big gun coming out, the SS......:evilgrin:

Then, Ford has a new Mustang out for 2010, and the Challenger is still pretty new. And what's more, Detroit has learned that you don't need a V8 to make these cars fun if you do it right.

Are they learning? Yes, sir......:D

[GrizzlyMan]

184. Camaro the official car of.......

Trailer trash. Been that way for decades.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. I'm really tired of all the 'bashing' of the auto industry. I've bought GM cars for over

45 years, including Corvettes and Saturns. The only 'foreign' car I ever had was a 1986 Mazda 626(?)that I kept a whole 3 months before trading it in. I thought it was a piece of %$#@!!

[Kalyke]

32. Wrong place

[hamsterjill]

37. Buy ONLY GM Cars

And I've heard all of the arguments and respect a consumer's right to buy as they please. However, I've NEVER had a major issue with a GM product.

It is important to me to buy "American".

[Ioo]

42. I had a Pontiac once, great for 18 months, then totally fell apart...

The dealership ended up giving me a new one... this was in 1994

[DainBramaged]

62. So, you still hold a grudge from 15 years ago???

Consumers, loyal as snakes

[Ioo]

68. No - As I said, JUST GOT A CAR IN FEB - Looked at the malibu

Please read what I said before you comment.

[yodoobo]

90. in 1994, they were also preaching

"our cars are as great as ever. You haven't driven a GM lately"

That song NEVER changes.

[Touchdown]

80. Your Mazda 626 was actually built by Ford in Flat Rock Michigan.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[sinkingfeeling]

89. LOL. That might explain it! My dad worked for Chevy all his life. Fords were never in our household!

[Atman]

99. In 1986? Are you sure?

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I honestly don't know; I know we bought a Chevy Nova around that time that was actually built at a Toyota plant in California. It was a Toyota Corolla for $3000 less. I bought one without even a test drive, and it was one the most dependable cars I ever owned.

.

[Touchdown]

106. The earliest models I know from that plant was the Probe/MX-6 model.

The MX-6 was a 2 door coupe version of the 626, which is the platform the Probe was also built off of.

The plant is called the Auto Alliance International. Co-owned by Ford and Mazda.

And... I was wrong. It opened in 1987. It's first car was the 626. It currently makes the Mustang and the Mazda 6

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/AutoAlliance-International

[Hannah Bell]

149. ford bought 27% of mazda in 1979, 34% in 1994.

they shared plant & expertise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda

there are similar incestuous relationships between all the car corps. toyota & gm started us joint venture in 1984.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI

which is why i no longer think of US automakers as "our" companies.

japan has a unionized workforce too, & its own "legacy costs".

They call each other "competitors" - but they play workforces against each other.

[peace13]

6. Interesting article. I wish that it had addressed the pay of the average worker.

I have been trying to find a response to my fundie friend who tells me that workers on the line make $78 an hour. I know this is bogus but I can't find the figures. I wonder why my son with a four year Tech degree didn't hustle right up there. He makes $17 and hour elsewhere. Go figure.

[sinkingfeeling]

29. Here's some info...

Your fundie friend is including retirement and health-care benefits and comes from here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN0432128020071004

The average UAW-represented GM assembly line worker makes just under $28 per hour now before health-care and other benefits that take total hourly labor costs to $73, the automaker has said.



http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924073107AAuGk8O

According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff

[peace13]

204. Thank you very much! n/t

[Bozita]

9. That article was frontpage, above the fold. Here's a pic. ...

[gratuitous]

10. Oka-a-a-a-ay

So they build the greatest, most reliable cars in the world that are models of fuel efficiency and everyone's buying them.

Why are the automakers begging for tax dollars again?

[Kalyke]

11. Health care costs.

[Hannah Bell]

158. GM offloaded most of their health care costs in the 2007 contract.

[DainBramaged]

13. Go away

[gratuitous]

18. Someone should tell the Big 3 then

Because the last couple of days, some guys posing as their CEOs have been testifying before Congress that they need a shitload of money. Folks who don't know any better might get the wrong idea.

[JVS]

31. Don't they remember what the Real Estate King says!

"In order to be successful, one must project an image of success at all times. " Buddy Kane

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. $20M bonuses just don't get it done anymore?

:shrug:

[blue_onyx]

38. There are a couple of reasons

First, US auto companies have the burden with responsibility of providing health care.

The US auto companies can't get money through loans to keep their business going. Consumers can't get credit to buy vehicles so automakers can't get money through the sale of their products either. Who's fault is this....the financial institutions that we DID bailout. 700 billion for the billionaire hedge fund managers but nothing for companies that employ average Americans. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Hannah Bell]

160. They offloaded most of their healthcare costs in 2007.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20081119/uaw-gm-say-new-pact-makes-labor-costs-competitive.htm

[blue_onyx]

192. As the article points out

The agreement will "take full effect in 2010." So the auto companies haven't experienced much of the cost savings from the UAW 2007 concessions. That's why the auto companies are saying they need the loan to get through 2010.

[Hannah Bell]

197. as the article points out, costs dropped 6% 2007-2008, & will continue to drop until 2010.

"But GM, which negotiated the four-year deal that serves as a template for UAW deals with Chrysler and Ford, says its total hourly labor costs dropped 6 percent this year from pre-contract levels, from $73.26 in 2006 to around $69 per hour. The new cost includes laborers' wages of $29.78 per hour, plus benefits, pensions and the cost of providing health care to more than 432,000 GM retirees, GM spokesman Tony Sapienza said.

The total cost will drop to $62 per hour in 2010"


That's $5/hr drop in the last year & another $7/hr by 2010.

PS: labor is <10% of the cost of a vehicle.


Maybe they could use some of the capital they're putting into russia, india & china to bridge this gap until 2010.

Seen this movie before.

[blue_onyx]

202. Or maybe we could take some the 700 billion that we threw

at the financial institutions and help out one of the few industries in this country that actually makes things. Yes, the cost dropped some but they still haven't gotten the full effect of the savings. The automakers shouldn't have never been burdened with health care costs. If we had universal health care, the the auto companies would have saved TONS of money over the decades they have been providing it. Also, the fact that cost are dropping hurts Congress' argument that the automakers haven't restructuring. Everyone should come to Michigan and ask people if they think the auto companies have been changing or not.

Also, like I pointed out, the auto companies can't get money to run their business because of the financial institutions who caused the credit crunch. I can't believe this is even a debate. So many people (including many on DU) just couldn't wait to pass the 700 billion. If the auto companies don't get a bailout, I want every cent of that 700 billion back.

[Hannah Bell]

205. I didn't like that one either, & phoned & wrote letters to congress - to no avail.

As it turns out, my suspicions were well-founded.

I have no argument with your desire to save jobs & productive capacity.

I simply don't believe giving $$ to the big 3 will do that, any more than giving $$ to the financial corps has saved their lower level employees.

[pampango]

15. In light of these 3 realities, why are the Big 3 losing so much money? n/t

[sentelle]

21. 2 reasons

Public perception.

And global recession
The problem I see is this: if people are avoiding buying cars (either US or imports), and GM building factories overseas, I don't see what the bailout does for the US people, nor the rank and file?

[underpants]

24. #3 Their problem is in the top floors at HQ

[Nederland]

105. Public perception?

What does that mean? Please tell me that your aren't claiming that American really want American cars and are just too stupid to realize it...

[sentelle]

182. public perception

The myths, as stated in the OP, for instance.

[KharmaTrain]

16. And They Suck At PR

People are walking across broken glass to get a Prius or other hybrid and the moment an efficient, economical fuel-cell or liquid hydrogen or other alternative energy car comes along, the market will go crazy, but as it stands, the Big 3 are miles from entering that race.

I'm not here to bash the UAW...far from it. I want the union to lead the way in reforming these companies or whatever company(s) survive or to be on the ground floor of new ones that create both a healthy and stable auto industry. Blaming isn't answering the big questions here as to how to achive such an industry...rather than trying to restore what was that we're now seeing was short-sighted and left both the industry and the unions in such a perilous situation.

For 30 years, the major automakers went for the flavor of the moment...the quick buck became the hedge between down times and the industry became more and more reliant on them without looking at the long term. As long as gas was plentiful and inexpensive, the powers that be in Detroit saw profits and marketed to the flavor of the moment...now there's no flavor...or should I say, they are out of flavors, the public has a taste for something totally different.

I don't care if the car is made in Detroit or Toykyo or Mars...the company that comes out with a car that runs with little to no oil will get my business. This is an opportunity to set the auto industry on that path and to set it as a priority. My big problem is letting those who created these messes be the ones who are given billions to "fix it".

[Kalyke]

34. Miles?

Try next year!!

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2009-ford-fusion-and-mercury-milan-hybrids.htm

[Ioo]

17. Myth No. 2 - You are picking your words here. Ranked in Initial Quality - not overall quality

There has been a lot of to do about nothing here. Initial Quality is the first few months of ownership. To be honest the worst POS car on the road should hold up the first year it was made...

From JD Powers "The Initial Quality Study serves as the industry benchmark for new-vehicle quality measured at 90 days of ownership. "

LONG-TERM quality, long term resale value, and long-term durability on MANY US made cars is in the tank compared to other cars... I am not wishing the death of US Auto makers... ALL I WANT is someone from one of these companies to just say, "Ya, we read the market wrong, and we have for some time... we fucked up, WE LEARNED FROM THIS, and we want to move on"

2008 IQS Ranking Highlights
Honda models capture three segment awards—more than any other nameplate in the 2008 study—for the Civic, CR-V and Fit. Garnering two segment awards each are: Chevrolet (Malibu and Silverado LD); Dodge (Dakota and Durango); Infiniti (EX-Series and M-Series); Lexus (LS and RX); and Mercedes-Benz (CLK-Class and E-Class). The Porsche 911 has the fewest quality problems in the industry, with just 67 problems per 100 vehicles. Also receiving segment awards are the Ford E-Series, Lincoln Navigator, Mazda MX-5 Miata, Pontiac Grand Prix Sedan and Toyota Sequoia.

“In past years, automakers have frequently struggled to achieve very high initial quality with new models,” said Sargent. “With product launches and redesigns often being problematic for manufacturers from a quality standpoint, it is particularly impressive that the Chevrolet Malibu and Infiniti EX-Series achieve such high levels of quality that they receive awards in their launch year.”

For a third consecutive year, Porsche tops the overall nameplate rankings, averaging 87 PP100. Following in the rankings are Infiniti (which improves from 9th rank position in 2007), Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and Toyota, respectively. Audi posts the largest improvement in ranking, moving from 26th place in 2007 to 10th in 2008.

“Porsche continues its steady improvement and has succeeded in distancing itself from the second-ranked nameplate to a greater degree in 2008—by a gap of 11 PP100—compared with 3 PP100 in 2007,” said Sargent.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2008063

[DainBramaged]

26. Right, we should apologize to you and then maybe you'll buy one of our cars

:eyes:

[Ioo]

30. Bought Car in Feb - Looked at Altima and Malibu... Choose Nissan

Because I did not like the overall fit and finish of the Malibu. Do not get me wrong, it was a good looking car on the outside, I found the inside to just feel cheaper than the Nissan... I was not getting a lower end, the tech package offered by Nissan over Chevy was much better as well...

So I looked, I gave it my airmans try... but in the end, it did not win me over.

[DainBramaged]

64. Right, you gave it a try,and bought Japanese

goodbye.

[Ioo]

77. Chevy Failed - I looked at a US Car, it did not impress me. Like MOST BUYERS

You are welcome to dismiss me, a lot like many Americans have dismissed GM...

You know, if the Malabu impress me I would be driving it right now. I see a lot of Nissans Toyotas Hondas VW's on the road... They must be doing something right, they are not asking for bailouts...

Look, I am not sure what the hell you want from us... UNLIKE most Americans, I at least drove my ass to a Chevy dealer and gave the car a test drive, most people do not even do that.... at the end of the day, my top pick FOR HOW I WAS GOING TO SPEND MY 30K was the Nissan.... Sorry I did not give it to you, I gave you a shot and you FAILED TO IMPRESS ME....

That is what is great about America, I CAN SPEND MY FUCKING MONEY ON A CAR THAT IMPRESSES ME... I am not issued a car. I am not going to spend my money on a lesser car because it was built in America (like Nissan) from globally sourced parts (like Nissan).

[Nederland]

199. That attitude is the problem

I'm so tired of members of the US auto industry acting as if Americans have an obligation to buy their products.

[Hannah Bell]

164. Nissan: 44% owned by France's Renault.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault

[Ioo]

191. And 100% in my driveway...

[PVnRT]

82. Way to ignore everything in the post

[yodoobo]

88. exactly. every GM product I've owned was good at first

Well except for that 1999 Denali where they put leather on drivers side door, and cloth on the passenger door.

Except for that dual personality Denali, they have *ALL* been great for the first 6 months.

After about 4 years though, they are falling apart. Interior trim especially.

The worst was my last. My 2002 Chevy Venture. It made it to 2007 at 85,000 miles when the engine was toast.

I've given GM products so many chances. They've failed every single time to produce a quality vehicle, that stays quality outside of warranty.

But then again, GM designs this in. Its all part of “planned obsolescence

http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/05/30/yanko-design-profiles-gms-designer-in-chief/

[Occam Bandage]

95. Same here. My Saturn was lovely, until three or four years of ownership,

at which point the entire goddamn car fell apart at once. I took it to the shop for four unrelated catastrophic issues in five months, before I gave up on it.

[SteelPenguin]

126. Same with me

As soon as my Ford fell out of warranty last year it started falling apart and within 6 months was dead with the engine repairs needed costing more than the car was valued. I decided to stop sinking money into it and sold it and ate the 5k left I still owed on it.

[leftofthedial]

19. here's the one that's not a myth.

I don't have a job. I won't be buying ANY new car for a long time.

[SidDithers]

23. Kelly Blue Book Resale Value Winners...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2008/11/kelley-blue-boo.html

2009 Best Resale Value: top 10 brands*

Honda — 44.5%
Toyota — 42.7%
Volkswagen — 40.9%
Subaru — 39.4%
Lexus — 38.7%
BMW — 38%
Infiniti — 37.3%
Acura — 36.8%
Audi — 36.5 %
Nissan — 36.5%

*KBB notes: Criteria for the Best Resale Value Awards required the brand to have a minimum of four nameplates in its portfolio, a factor that eliminated the highest-ranking brand performers Mini and Scion, which both carry five-year residual percentages of more than 50% across their small-vehicle lineups.


Of the 6 cars owned by my wife and I, and our 4 parents, 4 are North American. We've been a Chrysler family all our lives. Four generations of my family have worked at Chrysler, including myself as a summer student during University, so I'm not posting the KBB resale study to "bash" North American vehicles. I only post it to show that, justified or not, the perception is that North American vehicles do not last as long as imports. And unfortunately, the perception is often more important than the reality.

Sid

[Kalyke]

39. Note: All those cars cost more to purchase new, too, thus

the higher resale value.

:eyes:

[Dreamer Tatum]

47. It's expressed in percentages, brainiac

I see your :eyes: and raise you one: :eyes: :eyes:

[SidDithers]

48. Damn, you beat me to it...

:hi:

Sid

[Kalyke]

54. You know... "brainiac" that stats don't tell a true picture, don't you?

Go look online... you'll find that a ugly, small Prius costs the same as a bigger, more efficient Escape.

My point is still valid: foreign cars cost more and, as a result, sell for more in resale. Percentages be damned.

[ContinentalOp]

122. On what planet is the Escape more efficient than a Prius?

:shrug: :wtf: :crazy:

I guess not only do you hate percentages but you have a problem with simple integers!

[JVS]

123. LOL

[Cronus Protagonist]

178. I believe they have similar MPG figures

Just a factlet left over from when I sold them to customers.

[JVS]

186. Selling Fords? Were you fooling the customers? Prius 48/45, Escape hybrid 34/31

http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/
http://www.ford.com/vehicles/vehicle-showroom

The ford is also nearly $8000 more expensive.

[Cronus Protagonist]

188. Well, in fact the Escape is an SUV and the Prius is a small car

But I know there was some way or other that the manufacturers got the stats to be equal or better for the FORD... just can't remember... something to do with total cost of ownership or something... who cares anyway?

[ContinentalOp]

196. OK, so maybe pound for pound? That would kind of make sense.

If that's the case though, just say it. Don't lie.

[Cronus Protagonist]

211. Were you born this way?

Or did it take time to work it out? I'm just wondering because I'm doing a thesis on projection and you would provide a good example.

[ContinentalOp]

216. Haha, yes I'm a perfect example of projection...

because I'm lying about... what now exactly?

[ContinentalOp]

187. You may have been trained to tell customers that but it's a total lie.

2009 Ford Escape Hybrid FWD = 34 city, 31 hwy, 32 combined
2009 Toyota Prius = 48 city, 45 hwy, 46 combined.

So, if by "similar" you mean that the Prius gets on average 14mpg better than the Escape, then I guess you have a point.

[Cronus Protagonist]

189. Well, it was way back in 2005 AND yes, all manufacturers tell their salespeople lies

So we could tell the customers in all honesty what we are told.

[hfojvt]

101. cost is still an issue though

take a $30,000 car that re-sells for 45% of its value. You have lost $16,500 in a purchase/re-sale. With a $20,000 car that re-sells for 30% you have only lost $14,000. The other issue being, yes, if you can afford an expensive, hi-quality product, then you have something that re-sells at a higher percentage, but you have to beat the upfront costs first, and higher costs in financing and insurance.

[SidDithers]

49. Percentage of inital value, not actual resale value...

lrn2math.

Sid

[Kalyke]

57. Hmmm... that wasn't in your post.

And, it really wasn't the point of my post, fwiw.

My post is restated, thusly: an ugly, tiny Prius cost the same as a bigger, more efficient Escape. It *is* true that foreign cars cost more than their American neighbors.

Resale value is subjective. Maybe if Americans stopped living in the 1980s and realized what a good product Detroit actually produces, then resale value would flip.

[ContinentalOp]

124. How is an Escape more efficient than a Prius? You keep repeating this lie -nt-

[lumberjack_jeff]

209. And Volkswagen and Subaru are two of the least reliable brands available.

All of the Detroit 3 are more reliable.

The widespread perception of german quality perplexes me.

[DainBramaged]

27. And the Detroit bashers flock to the thread like flies to shit

:shrug: I love being a member of the Democratic party, I reeeeeally do.

[DirtyJersey]

45. The Big 3 are no friends to progressives

I don't understand why so many progressives are so staunchly defending these companies that made extensive efforts to resist basic safety and environmental regulations. They pay their workers well - that's about the only thing they do right, and that's only because of the strength of the UAW. There's no way they would otherwise.

[DainBramaged]

67. You think the Japanese give a shit about the environment?

THEY KILL WHALES. THAT in and of itself should be enough to outrage all of you. GM has been going green on all of their factories since 2004. Toyota STARTED in 2007.

What was that, oh yes, THEY KILL WHALES.

Bullshit. Keep buying foreign junk till we're just a service nation making minimum wage.

[DirtyJersey]

108. I don't think they do

I don't own a foreign car - I don't own a car at all. I'm not saying the Japanese companies are better - I'm saying that the American companies, GM in particular, have a history avoiding environmental, and perhaps more significantly, safety rules, even basic ones. They were more than okay with people dying in car crashes as long as they didn't have to add the minuscule extra cost of seat belts. It's disgraceful, and I don't see how anyone can defend them.

[DainBramaged]

119. And the set belts became standard in 1967 I think?

That's holding a grudge for an awful long time don't you think? And since you don't OWN a car.....................

[comtec]

50. Sticking your fingers in your ears adn going LALALALALALA is WHY American cars ar e suffering

along with the Union works that are left.
Personally I think it all started REALLY going down hill when American name-plate cars STOPPED being made in the USA, and started being made in mexico and farther away.

You really don't seem to get it.

we WANT the US car industry to SUCCEED!!! We're trying to point out the PROBLEM SO THEY CAN BE FIXED!

Being thick headed is WHY your job, and every one else's is at risk.

YOUR CARS SUCK!
THEY'RE BEHIND THE CURVE
THEY DON'T LAST!!!
THEY ARE OVER PRICED!!!

Now do something about it as opposed to being insulting to everyone who is trying to point out the bleeding obvious!

I've said for years... If I want an American MADE car, that gave AMERICANS JOBS, I'll buy Toyota, THEY have plants in the US still!

[Kalyke]

59. And the profits for your Toyota purchase go elsewhere.

And they're ugly and the No. 1 recalled car in, ahem, America.

[pampango]

79. Proctor & Gamble makes money all over the world through its international subsidiaries

and guess where the profits go? Right back to Cincinnati.

If Toyota and P&G don't make good products and run their companies well, there will be no profits to send anywhere.

[Hannah Bell]

167. P&G then takes their profits & invests them in Cincinnati?

Why do they have 6-7% unemployment?

[pampango]

I don't know what P&G does with their profits, but I don't know what Toyota does with theirs either.

Very few of P&G's many factories are in the Cincinnati area, so even if they employ lots of workers not that many of them are in that area.

[Hannah Bell]

206. Toyota invests them overseas, to cut off their employees' demands for higher wages.

Just like the US corps do.

For example, Toyota invests in the US.

2/3 of Japanese cars sold here are built here.

Course, they also invest in Korea, China, etc.

Just so no single workforce gets any bright ideas.

[pampango]

208. I am glad that Toyota invests here. I assume that Japanese are glad P&G invests there.

What would either country gain by excluding investments from the other? Are you saying it would be better if Toyota only invested in Japan and P&G only invested in the US? Would it be alright for Toyota to export their cars and P&G export their products, if each was only produced in its own country?

[Hannah Bell]

213. yeah, this is better. cause this way, the owners have more ways to hold

wages down & screw their employees.

[ContinentalOp]

129. Recalls are a good thing. That means the company is fixing their mistakes for free.

Where is the recall for the roll-prone Broncos or Explorers? Oh that's right, it's Firestone's fault :eyes:

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gratuitous]

53. You're the one who laid the turd in this forum

And yet you can't be bothered to explain why, in the face of the "myths," the automakers are still up on Capitol Hill begging for a handout. Instead it's insults, petulant whining, name-calling and pouting. So quit the Democratic party and go join the Republicans. I hear that plumbers are doing really well with them right now. Maybe whatever it is you do for a living will be equally valued.

[DainBramaged]

71. Good, go bitch about the cost of Starbucks if you don't like my cars and company

piss off phony.

[gratuitous]

92. Odd that you should use the word "phony"

And since the mods haven't seen fit, perhaps it's up to someone else to explain how the rest of the country isn't all that concerned about the fix that some overrich, pampered companies have gotten themselves into through their own short-sighted business practices and policies. Automakers have fought for decades against the public interest, complaining about how they can’t sell cars with seat belts because the cost would be too prohibitive and they can’t market or merchandise safety as a selling point because all they know how to sell is overpowered muscle cars that appeal to a small segment of pin-dicked bugfuckers, and if that’s not good enough for America, it’s by-god good enough for GM, so there.

And seat belts are just one example. The sordid history of automakers (shrinking as they have over the 20th century until we’re just left with the Big Three) from leaded gasoline that poisons our environment to lobbying for greater tax breaks as an excuse to build gas-sucking behemoths while they ship jobs out of the country shows an alarming lack of a sense of corporate citizenship. Now here come their CEOs, flying into Washington on corporate jets to ask for billions of dollars after throwing themselves a decade-long party and refusing to re-tool their line, save for the inevitable rainy day, or make any decision that sacrificed short-term gain for themselves in favor of sustained profitability.

And all you can do is kvetch at people who look at this situation and rightfully wonder why it’s up to the taxpayers to write loans with no strings attached to the same folks who’ve pursued these self-destructive policies. Well gosh! Let me run and get my checkbook! Are you sure $25 billion will be enough? And feel free to come back in January – there’s more where that came from!

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

96. Hey genius, guess who is also suing to overturn the latest millage standards?

Honda and Toyota fancy that. Oh, and did you know that 70 percent of Toyota's profit comes form the sale of big trucks and SUVs the same type you fools rail against the Domestics about.

Goodbye genius. You know nothing about the auto industry, only what Google points you to.

[DainBramaged]

121. (sigh) loan, or don't you understand English either?

A LOAN, BORROW MONEY, pay back WITH INTEREST. LOAN.

[OhioChick]

28. K&R

Happy to be the 5th rec.

:kick:

[suston96]

35. Great OP. I had a Honda Civic once - just once.....

I got rid of it when Honda sent me a recall letter stating that the left front fender could fly off while moving.

[Ioo]

40. All Cars have recalls - Ford Pinto expolded with tap to bumper - Audi's drove away without you

All cars have recalls

[suston96]

43. I had many cars 25 or 30- all American - Honda only recall........nt

[Ioo]

55. Really? Give me Year Make Model - Honda just cares about you to tell you

All modern cars have recalls....

You just never got the mailer... a great example of US Car makers great Customer service.

[suston96]

78. Sorry, too long ago - 1980s? But you are correct. Honda tracked me down....

....I wasn't the original owner.

[Kalyke]

63. Urban legend

In retrospect, Schwartz writes, the Pinto's safety record appears to have been very typical of its time and class. In over 10 years of production, and 20 years that followed, with over 2 million Pintos produced, no more people died in fires from Pintos as died in fires from Maximas...

http://www.car-forums.com/s10/t2240.html

[Ioo]

70. Not the point - they recalled the Ford Pinto to secure the tank. Poster said no recalls.

I also tossed in the Audi as well

[DainBramaged]

73. What, Mr. Pinto love is back in the thread?

I see ignored people :rofl:

[RB TexLa]

41. Message bought and paid for by The Fund to Preserve the Lifestyle of the Big 3 CEO's

[tomreedtoon]

44. So Detroit Rust is perfect, and it needs no changes?

DainBramaged, every time you post you appear to be asking for bailout money, no change in the auto business at all. THAT is why people have problems with your posts.

Michael Moore made a post that has a lot more sense to it; a government receivership of the automobile industry, with the entire industry - yes, union too! - directed towards making fuel-efficient and non-gasoline autos, PLUS mass transit and trains, PLUS retaining and increasing American jobs. They want money? They have to be forced to do the right thing.

And unlike you, whom I don't know from Adam, Moore is someone who cares about the auto industry. Everything he's done from Roger and Me to Fahrenheit 9/11 has referenced his tortured, raped community of Flint, Michigan. I trust him more than I trust you.

There is only one man who can make sense of the auto industry, and reform it, and he won't be in office until the middle of January. So I guess we'll have to put up with Blind Detroit Boosterism until then.

[JVS]

52. One bone to pick on detail

I don't think Michael Moore gives a shit about the Auto Industry. He's seen that industry fuck his home over royally. What Michael Moore does care about though is the people. And because he cares about the people he understands that whether they build GM cars, Fords, or Mopar cars is unimportant. In fact, it doesn't matter that much if they build cars at all. What is important is that they be able to earn a decent living without being constantly shit upon by the plutocrats running those companies.

[Bozita]

51. On Charlie Rose last night, David Cole said that 90% of new car sales require a loan and the banks

... ain't lending.

http://www.charlierose.com/

[Better Believe It]

58. K & R

[MindPilot]

56. I thought at least some of the US plants making Japanese cars were UAW

Am I wrong in that assumption? And for the plants that are not UAW, how do the wages and benefits compare to the UAW shops?

I ask because I work for a Japanese company; (electronics, not auto) they are scared to death of a union and the way they keep it away is by treating us decently and paying us well.

[Ioo]

61. Nissan Workers voted down the UAW - Toyota is working hard to keep UAW out.

almost 2 to 1 the workers at Nissan voted not to unionize.

I know Toyota has issues with worker conditions at it's flagship plant, and the workers are talking about the UAW again... but Toyota said it is working on the issues. Toyota has said (and I agree but disagree) that they would rather pay what the job is worth (Avg is $20 an hour, the local avg is $14 an hour) and keep the plant open, or if UAW steps in, be forced to close the plant. I understand the thought... because face it, Union or not, of there is no plant your pay is $0.

I am not sure about Honda, but I can look.

[greguganus]

151. I work for a Japanese company (not a car maker), and they said they will close the doors...

...before they let a union come in. Probably why most of the Japanese companies are in the south. Less union presence.

[DainBramaged]

155. Absolutely. they ALWAYS build in 'right to work states'

an try to build in areas of low educational scoring. They take over the town and just like WalMart, make the town subservient.

[B Calm]

220. You really mean the "right to work for LESS states"

[Ioo]

65. March 07 - UAW And Why Honda And Toyota Workers Are Not Interested

Post I found, has okay run down

http://blogs.automotive.com/6205652/miscellaneous/uaw-and-why-honda-and-toyota-workers-are-not-interested/index.html

[NoGOPZone]

66. The NUMMI plant in California, where some Corollas are made, is a union shop

It's a joint venture between GM and Toyota. Domestically built Mitsubishis are also union made. I don't know how the wages compare between these and the non union shops.

[DainBramaged]

74. Mitsubishi only, and the NUNNI joint venture in California

[Hannah Bell]

169. it's nummi, mr. expert.

[Joe Chi Minh]

60. K&R

[IndianaJones]

72. I'll take a GM 3100 V6 over anything from a foreign car company. nt

[sarcasmo]

75. This was a great article, worth the read, good post.

[DainBramaged]

81. But the detractors and Republican sympathizers are out in force

what they fail to understand is that DU is a SMALL percentage (minuscule actually) of the car buying public. And the people who buy the imports here as a group, didn't serve in the military, never held a blue collar menial labor job, don't have a trade or skill (ask them to fix a leaky faucet), and are basically those guys in your office who whine about how cold it is out. And one day you want to catch them in the bathroom and superglue their ass to the toilet seat.


If we had to depend on the DU demographic to support American industry, it would be called Chinese or Japanese before it was called American.

[sarcasmo]

85. You are preaching to the choir here, Father is a 35 year GM Man.

[uncle ray]

125. you should hang out near the gate of any military base.

there are more Kias and Hyundais than American branded cars driven by our servicemembers. that is all they can afford with their meager military pay, which is less than half of that of the average UAW worker. you don't get a more pro-america demo than the military. so why don't you go preach to our servicemembers what their problem is?

[Ioo]

138. OMG Your Right- When I was an Airman I drove a Hyundai. All I could afford.

Lots of the toyota corolas too. Even the family men in the upper ranks drove Nissan Quests and Honda mini-vans.

[Atman]

153. Just a point of reference...Hyundai's ain't "cheap" cars anymore.

Hyundai is suffering some of the same reputation problems GM is, I guess. They've gone through several whole-model overhauls, and they're no longer the shoddy, repair-prone sub-compacts they were in the 1990s or even five years ago.

I have a 2007 Santa Fe (and an 06 Elantra). They are both among the best cars I've ever owned. The Santa Fe even got a rise out of our Republican Infiniti SUV-driving friends...hubby was pissed, because he'd paid $53,000 for his wife's car, and they both felt our Santa Fe was so nice that their Infiniti wasn't worth the additional $20,000 they'd paid.

Hyundai just took the Toyota approach...started with just a couple of very inexpensive small cars, to get people into the market. Then they kept copying other cars (my 2006 Elantra was frequently mistaken for a Saab 93 when we bought it...it is a total rip-off of the Saab's lines inside and out; the 09's are just Corolla make-overs) and improving their quality. Now, Hyundai has three cars in the top ten this year (Santa Fe and Elantra among them). And none of their cars are on the list for bad depreciation.

Just sayin. Kia is the low-end line of Hyundai's, and they still don't get very good marks. And Kia depreciation is still horrible. Just isn't the same with Hyundai anymore. If you doubt me, go ride in a new Sonata or Sante Fe. Or their new Genesis luxury car, which supposedly beats a Porche Boxster 0-60.

(On edit: BTW, we also have a 2002 Saturn L200. It is a surprisingly nice car).

.

[Sirveri]

203. While in the Navy I had a Honda.

To get my wife working she needed a car as well, so we bought another Honda. She's a Ford fan, but not anymore. Some of the guys on the boat made fun of my choices, but when I started banking 2k a month because both me and my wife were working, they quickly shut up. I needed to get a commuter shuttle car, so the second was an '07 Honda Fit purchased in Jan 07. It's perfect for what we do with it. Do the big 3 make similar vehicles, probably, but we didn't trust them to make a quality product. So we put our money towards something we had faith that would last and be quality. Next time we need to buy a car, I'll look at American cars, but I'm not promising anything. If they don't make a product I want, I'm not going to buy it. What I want is something with good gas mileage that I can run for over a decade and is cheap to maintain. Listening to my mom bitch about how her Ford Focus is falling to pieces, when it has less miles and is newer than our '99 Honda Civic which is doing perfectly fine does not inspire me to buy American.

[ContinentalOp]

137. I find your attitude to be incredibly offensive, but I'm going to breathe deeply...

try to take your post seriously and explain to you why you're wrong and why your attitude is actually part of the problem with the Big 3.

The myths in your O.P. are largely about marketing. The Big 3 have image problems that they need to overcome: the perception that their cars are unreliable, inefficient, etc. When you rant against people who have never served in the military or done blue collar labor, you're insulting and alienating the vast majority of Americans. If you want to wage this culture war, and you help perpetuate the myth that white collar yuppies buy foreign cars, guess what? They're going to continue to buy foreign cars!

And this is a big part of the problem that the Big 3 face. They have cultivated an image that they make vehicles for the tough, blue collared, middle American man, and that only wimpy, effete, latte-sipping urban dwellers buy tiny underpowered Priuses and the like. And that works if you're trying to sell cars only to that demographic and the people who aspire to be that kind of "real American man." But what about the people who are perfectly happy to identify themselves as a white collar yuppie? The industry is basically leaving them behind and gladly ceding that market to the foreign automakers.

I think you're dead wrong that we're a minuscule percentage of the car buying public. 35% of the labor force works in managerial and professional jobs, 24% in sales, technical, and administrative support, 16% in services, and only 24% in manufacturing, mining, transportation and crafts. That means 75% of workers are "those guys in your office who whine about how cold it is out" and your tough, red-blooded macho men are only 24% of the auto-buying market. To say nothing of women who you seem to be ignoring completely.

[DainBramaged]

139. Whatever. You aren't the only one, and I find he attitude of many here

as offensive. Unfortunately the number of red-blooded macho-men who work in manufacturing has been diminished dramatically over the past decade because so many of those supposed managers are outsourcing and outright shipping out those jobs to Foreign countries to save a buck. I love your statistics, but your 16% service work force is way off.
And white collar 'yuppies' do only buy foreign cars because the marketing by the Japanese is targeted at the supercilious personalities of that group.

Sorry you don't like my attitude, I don't like yours either, so we're even.

[ContinentalOp]

140. And still you ignore the reality:

"And white collar 'yuppies' do only buy foreign cars because the marketing by the Japanese is targeted at the supercilious personalities of that group."

Exactly. So what are you going to do about it? What are the Big 3 doing about it? Insult those people and cede 75% of the market to the Japanese? Or actually give these people what they want for a change and try to learn a thing or two about marketing?

[DainBramaged]

144. Well, I'm certainly not going to try and sell you a car

and that isn't my job, PAL, or have you not noticed I wasn't being grilled in front of Congress yesterday.

Have a nice latte filled day. Time for a beer.:beer:

[ContinentalOp]

145. I don't know what you look like. How do I know you weren't in front of Congress yesterday?

:tinfoilhat:

[DainBramaged]

147. Well, I don't like to fly, so that rules me out.

:hi:

[superduperfarleft]

181. Why don't you just call someone a "homo" and get it over with? n/t

[ContinentalOp]

217. Yeah, for real -nt-

[grace0418]

150. Wow, talk about incredibly offensive generalizations. You don't know shit about me

or anyone I know. Just because I don't agree with your OPINION about American cars doesn't mean that my opinion and the opinions of those I've trusted to give me advice about cars are stupid ("stupid is as stupid does"), or Republican-esque, or that none of us know what it's like to work menial jobs, serve in the military, have a trade or skill or any other idiotic notion you throw about. Good grief, that is INCREDIBLY insulting. You presume a hell of a lot about me and my friends and relatives without knowing a DAMN THING. And, as is often the case when people make assumptions about everyone that disagrees with them, you are completely wrong. You want military service? Done. Menial jobs? More than I can count. Trades, skills, support for unions and American products? Yep, yep, yep and yep.

I do often complain about the winters here in Chicago, though, so I guess that must mean my opinion is completely invalid. :eyes:

I buy American whenever possible, but I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to spend $15-20,000 of my hard-earned money on an unreliable vehicle that I'll have to junk in 5 years. If you've had different experiences, good for you. Buy any car you like and feel happy about the purchase. But you can keep your absurd generalizations to yourself.

[DainBramaged]

152. Thanks for playing!!!

:evilgrin:

[grace0418]

157. I'm glad you find insulting people a game. Not the best way to get them

to change their minds though.

[DainBramaged]

159. I'm not trying to change your mind

You bought foreign iron, good luck, it's not my job to sell you a car, but if you don't understand what this is going to do to over three million FAMILIES related to the industry, God help us, you need more than me telling you where the bread line is going to be.

[ContinentalOp]

165. I sure as shit hope you buy EVERYTHING American.

You buy all of your clothes from American Apparel right? hahaha

I'm assuming you've never spent a dime on Chinese crap at Walmart or else you're a total hypocrite.

Or does it only matter if it affects your industry and your livelihood?

[DainBramaged]

168. Got my Union made AMERICAN made jeans on right now

I do my absolute best to buy American whenever possible. More than most around here do.

I have been to WalMart ONCE in over ten years (and damn proud of it), and that was to buy a friend a gift card whose home was demolished in Florida in 2005 and the ONLY store open was WalMArt. I shop at Costco and Target, my phone is AT&T as is my wireless and internet.

And my car is a Chevy.

What don't you understand about Union made??

[superduperfarleft]

183. Target is staunchly anti-union and full of foreign-made sweatshop crap.

Surprised you didn't know that, Mr. Red-Blooded Macho Labor Expert.

[ContinentalOp]

185. I understand that in the reality of today's world it's increasingly difficult if not impossible...

to be totally "pure" as a consumer. As many people here have pointed out over and over, you can buy an "American" car that was made overseas or uses foreign parts and you can buy a "foreign" car that was made in the US by union workers. Trying to figure out the origins of everything you buy is nearly impossible.

So I don't think it's fair to dismiss DUers who buy foreign cars unless you can guarantee that you have never purchased a foreign product for which there was an American substitute.

If I wanted to completely avoid anti-union companies, I basically couldn't even buy groceries where I live.

The support of unions and of American workers is an important issue. The environment is an important issue too. Who is more ethically "correct", someone who buys a union made SUV that gets 20mpg or someone who buys a foreign car that gets 40? You can't really make that comparison unless you're living in a very black and white world.

[grace0418]

170. Good, because you continue to insult me and make assumptions without having a clue

what I do or don't do, or what I know or don't know. But please, by all means, continue. :eyes:

[DainBramaged]

175. Nah, you think you know me, but we haven't even met, so since I don't dance with strangers

have a nice day. I'm done talking here for today. DU as a whole wants to see the American auto industry fail, Fine. I know who my friends are in real life, and they don't post on a silly message board and they certainly don't undercut or undermine my livelihood.

Buhbye sport.

[grace0418]

179. "You think you know me." Kettle? Is that you? I have the pot on line one...

"You think you know me." LOL! That is RICH! Whooooo-dog. When did I ever make any assumptions or gross generalizations about you? Please, point it out. Oh, I forgot, you're done talking to me because *I* think I know *you*. Sure, whatever you need to make you feel as self-righteous as possible.

[tammywammy]

76. K&R

Good post, from someone that doesn't drive a GM vehicle, but understands that GM cannot be allowed to go under.

[RedCappedBandit]

83. You might try an approach involving ..

something other than flaming every person who disagrees with you. Then maybe you'll get your point across.


As for me, I couldn't care less about your typical appliance cars. Actually, I drive an s10 at the moment. I hate it. Not because it's a chevy, just because its a big pos truck.

The miata is where its at for me! American automakers don't have anything that compares :D

[RB TexLa]

86. Too much at stake, the CEO of GM told her/him that if they get the taxpayers money

that s/he can lick some of the bugs off his corporate jet.

[PVnRT]

87. It's the only way he knows how to talk, apparently

[DainBramaged]

93. SO people on my ignore list just can't say goodbye, and flame me

knowing I can't see them. If you personally don't like my defense of American cars, and the fact that I am pissed off at so many of you who don't give a shit about my livelihood or family, yet I should car about your issues, maybe you should just put my Union ass on ignore and be done with it.

[PVnRT]

109. There you go again

Anyone who doesn't praise you and stroke your ego hates you and all your coworkers. Maybe if you'd learn to take a fucking chill pill instead of flying off the handle, more people might actually listen to you. They are obviously anti-union and hate American workers. Blah blah blah. It's been the same fucking note out of you since I first noticed you posting here.

Tell you what, go ahead and put me on ignore, since I went to college for engineering and now work in an office. Clearly, I hate unions and workers as well since I've never had a "real job" or served in the military like a "real man" does. Except for the temp work in an incredibly unsafe plant after college during the six months I couldn't find a job. Or the time I had to go on unemployment because I lost a job and my dad was ill. That's not important, though, since I don't fit into the little fucking stereotype that you and the rest of the "real Americans" around here have forged.

Whatever. I've about fucking had it with this site and the mods who allow posters like you to get away with murder because you claim to be in a union.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

91. Why should I care? If you already bought a foreign car, what's the difference?

You looking for a new friend or something? It ain't me. Try the Food forum.

[RedCappedBandit]

130. Um, because its a discussion forum?

You know, a place to discuss things? Kinda hard to discuss things when you won't talk to anybody. :eyes:

Regardless, i'm not sure you even read anything I wrote, because I don't own a foreign car, and clearly stated so in my post.

[Ioo]

134. Bandit - don't try

I mean, he is pissed at me because I went to the dealer and test drove a chevy, but because I ended up buying another American built car I am somehow evil. So I would not even try to reason with him. And you are right, he is not reading what people are posting, only the subject line...

I am sure he is under a lot of stress, and while I thank him for his passion.

For me I tried, GM failed... at least (unlike many Americans) I gave them a look.

[hogwyld]

201. Of course he's stressed

There aren't a whole lot fo $73 per hour jobs out there that don't require a masters degree.

[yodoobo]

84. Well they aren't doing something right

Healthy businesses don't beg for government 25 billion dollars loans.

Nonethless, if we can bail them out, then thats fine, but they gotta stop doing WHATEVER it is, that is making them lose money at an astronomical rate.

[Occam Bandage]

94. I wanted to buy a subcompact a few months back.

My choices were the Nissan Versa, the Chevy Aveo, the Hyundai Accent, the Kia Rio, the Toyota Yaris, and the Honda Fit. Ford and Chrysler do not make subcompacts in America. The Aveo came out at the absolute bottom of Consumer Reports' testing, and was ranked the least reliable compact or smaller sold in America. Plus, it's just a rebranded Daewoo; it's not even a truly American car. So, having no American option, I bought a Yaris.

It's only rated 35 or so, but in reality it gets 40 mpg overall. I'm quite happy with it.

[DainBramaged]

100. I got to use a Yaris for about week a couple of months ago

wasn't anything spectacular, the driving position was difficult for me, it was like sitting at a desk, all in all a pedestrian car. The Aveo is as most cars made or imported by the big 3, unfairly rated by Consumer reports. We feel that they've had it out for the Domestics for decades because the Big 3 refused to tout the ratings they would 'give' a car, thereby increasing their rack and subscription sales. The Aveo is the least costly to buy and least costly to own car in America, gets real millage in the high 30's, and even though it's made in Korea for GM, we just need to dump it and concentrate on Domestic production. Small cars are just that, small cars with minimal comfort and safety.

Case in point. The 1978 Chrysler Omnis were their car of the year. In 1979, they said they were unsafe and junk, even though the previous year they were wonderful. What happened in one year? Only Consumer Reports knows for sure.

Good luck with it.

[Occam Bandage]

102. And sometimes, a small car with minimal comfort is all a buyer wants.

Especially heading into what might be a very deep and long recession, I wish that Detroit wouldn't surrender the bottom of the food chain. They're very aggressive with small cars in BRIC, so I'm somewhat surprised that they've abandoned that same market in America to the Asian manufacturers. Are they unable to produce a cheap car profitably using domestic labor and suppliers, or is it something else?

[NoGOPZone]

104. You're confused. The Omni was MOTOR TREND'S car of the year, not Consumer Reports

AFAIK, Consumer Reports has never designated a single vehicle as a Car of the Year.

[DainBramaged]

113. I'm not confused, I used the wrong terminology

Highly recommended for 1978. Oh, and I refuse to buy their rag too.

[NoGOPZone]

115. I'd have to see it before I believe it. As far as the magazine

it has its good points and its bad points, similar to magazines dedicated strictly to automobiles. I love Motor Trend but during the seventies I wouldn't be surprised if the Car of the Year award was bought a couple times.

[Atman]

163. CU doesn't hand out any car awards

The best you can hope for is a "Recommended" designation.

.

[AZ Criminal JD]

112. If you are reflective of the UAW no wonder thye are in trouble

Shouldn't you be on an assembly line someplace instead of posting on the internet?

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ioo]

135. Agreed. Very angry, and not really winning many over

Oh well. I am sure he has a reason to be...

[Atman]

161. Something isn't right with your story, dude.

Consumer Reports could not possibly have been "upset" with the Big 3 for not touting their ratings. In fact, CU expressly forbids it, and it says so right in their magazine. They've even sued people to get them to stop it. Car & Driver and the other auto magazines accept advertising from car makers, which puts them in a precarious position, ratings-wise. They LOVE to have the Big 3 tout their ratings, that's why they give out the "Car of the Year." CU has no such award, and as I stated, would not allow it to be used by the car companies if it did.

.

[DainBramaged]

166. Ok dude, thanks for keeping me informed, dude.

[Atman]

171. BTW, in this thread and one of the other Greatest threads, I've been on YOUR side

But I do have to agree, you sure do know how to act rude, even to people who share your point of view.

Dude. You could just admit that you're wrong...oh, wait, no you probably couldn't. Doesn't seem to be in your nature.

"Im tired of hearing that Detroit builds crappy cars no one wants"

"Toyota builds crappy cars no one wants."

BTW, I did a LOT of work for your union, and several others, this election cycle. You're welcome.

.

[DainBramaged]

173. I'm not wrong about saving my industry dude.....

[Atman]

174. Actually, you aren't helping save your industry at all

I'm on your side, and you're even being rude to ME. (BTW, recheck the post above...I was editing it to add a couple of links when you responded). I imagine such "help" isn't winning over any converts among the people who might disagree, or be on the fence.

.

[DainBramaged]

176. I have given up a winning anyone over here

life is too short, everyone buy your foreign iron, buy imported junk, let the Unions fail, I don't give a shit. What a fucking waste of precious time.

[Ioo]

194. :( - In the future make sure you can defend your position with info, not insults...

You will get farther with this group.

[Tesha]

210. It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

> The Aveo is as most cars made or imported by the big 3, unfairly rated by Consumer reports.

Of course. It's always someone else's fault when the claim is made that
the Big Three's cars aren't so hot; it can't possibly be the fact that they
actually aren't so hot.


> We feel that they've had it out for the Domestics for decades because the Big 3 refused
> to tout the ratings they would 'give' a car, thereby increasing their rack and subscription
> sales.

As usual, you and the mouse in your pocket (that royal "We" you just threw out
at us) are dead wrong. Consumer Reports *EXPLICITLY PROHIBITS* all vendors
from "touting" their ratings and will sue any vendor who tries to do so. (And
yes, they have done so.)

Tesha

[NoGOPZone]

107. I drove an Aveo for a few weeks as a insurance replacement

I wasn't impressed. Didn't corner well, and I was getting brake lock at what I considered only medium pedal pressure on dry asphalt. Acceleration wasn't bad, though, even with a tiny engine and an auto trans. Go figure. It must have affected the mileage though, because I wasn't getting anywhere what you're getting in the Yaris.

edit: better English

[LeftyMom]

97. The Chevy Aveo is a rebadged Korean car.

:eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

98. Right. No American company makes an American subcompact for sale in America.

Ford makes some nice small cars, but they're only sold in Europe and BRIC. I kinda wished I could bring a Ford Ka back with me from Berlin.

[Atman]

162. It's a Suzuki

GM is dumping it's stake in Suzuki, to help raise capital. Good riddance.

.

[jmowreader]

214. The Aveo is a Daewoo

The Geo Metro was a Suzuki,

[Atman]

215. Did they change?

We were car shopping a couple of years ago when the Aveo first came out. We also looked at a Suzuki dealership, who had the identical car with a different badge. Suzuki and GM have a partnership...I'm reasonably sure it's a Suzuki, but I could be wrong.

.

[jmowreader]

218. It's a Daewoo Kalos

GM and Suzuki own Daewoo, and Daewoo sells a LOT of cars with different nameplates.

[kwassa]

103. I love my 2005 Malibu Maxx, great car

The quality of the car is quite good, it does many things well, and it gets 30+ mpg on the highway.

[Cronus Protagonist]

190. And I loved my Mustang before the repo man took it :(

That is a good car. Bummer about losing it though... :(

[hughee99]

120. Operation Popcorn...

Always fun to see certain poster(s) at their game. An article with good information that I might otherwise agree with, followed by a series of ad hominem attacks, "adding to ignore list" notifications, "alerting the mods" threats, and the occasional PM. Good times... good times.

:popcorn:

[hughee99]

212. I almost forgot...

The "Name Removed" posts that are always littered about like leaves in the fall, and a sweeping generalization about "DU as a whole" before figuratively storming off.

Good stuff :headbang:

[ContinentalOp]

133. These "myths" only highlight the industry's problems and mistakes.

"Myth No. 1 Nobody buys their vehicles."

If their vehicles are selling so well, why are they in such financial trouble? The only answer can be corporate mismanagement -- exactly what everyone here has been complaining about all along. Nobody is diminishing the workers or blaming the union. We want to see an end to the gross corporate bungling that has plagued the big 3 for decades.

"Myth No. 2 They build unreliable junk."

This is purely a problem with marketing. Again, the fault of corporate management. The public perception may be wrong but it's something the industry earned and they are going to have to work hard to turn it around. Companies like Honda, Volkswagen, and Toyota know how to market themselves and if the big 3 can't figure it out, they are going to have a hell of a time competing. Maybe we should put Steve Jobs in charge of GM.

"Myth No. 3 They build gas-guzzlers."

Again, they have certainly done nothing to counter this "myth." Toyota has worked really hard to stake out a reputation as a maker of efficient cars even when, as you point out, they also make plenty of gas guzzling trucks. The big 3 can't simply make a few moderately efficient cars, hope that the public catches on, and whine about it when they don't. They have spent the past couple of decades building cars like Suburbans, Escalades, and Hummers, and intentionally focusing on that market and building up that image. It's once again an issue of marketing, and if GM management can't figure that out they need to be replaced.

[riqster]

172. Here's a myth: "The American Car"

No such article. I found this out when I bought my "American" Ford Ranger in 1987. 45% Mazda (made in Japan), that "American" vehicle was.

And just about every "Domestic" car you buy is, to some extent, "foreign" in nature.

So, what's with the "buy American" myth? You're buying from an American COMPANY, maybe, but the car itself is a hunk of globalization.

Don't be fooled. Buy the best car for you, no matter where its maker's corporate HQ may be.

[Ioo]

193. As I said, GM, Nissan, Honda the same - US BUILT FROM GLOBALLY SOURCED PARTS

Most of the crap under the skin of all cars on the US roads are make somewhere NOT in the US. Mexico, China, Japan, Korea. To say US MADE car is a farce.

[riqster]

219. And thus the MONEY for these "American" cars

is less and less likely to go to American workers. Most of my union friends grok this, and do not slavishly repeat propaganda that enriches their employers at the expense of the working person.

Unlike the OP.

[Blue_Tires]

177. thanks for this, Dain

k+r

[JuniperLea]

195. Seems you're 8 years too late and several billion short

This information would have been good to know a long time ago... makes no difference now... the game has changed.

[codjh9]

200. You're right on all 3, but the backbone of the Big 3 for quite a while has been BIG trucks and SUVs,

regardless of the fact that they DO build - esp. Ford and GM - some decent mid-size and small cars. And THAT's where they haven't faced facts and the future.

[Festivito]

221. It's fun to complain about big entities including government.

Certainly car companies.

For a long time Japanese cars were smaller, but not better. They failed expensively when rocked out of a snow pile. No problem for Californians.

Later, people paid more for the car and feared the cost of replacement parts so they actually did their oil changes on time, and other scheduled maintenances. Not so with many Americans. So when the averages were calculated it seemed the Japanese cars were better.

Car companies did fall behind, creating cars for sloppy American owners. American owners changed, so did American car companies. American cars are now more reliable than other cars by their own tests. It takes years before you can provide results in the market that are measured in years. How much is a 5 year old car worth, a ten year old car. You have to wait five and ten years to find out.

Only now are American cars getting the better marks they have deserved for years.

What we need in this country are people with secure jobs feeling secure enough to buy any car. I hope we don't lose our last manufacturing to Republican borrowing to pay for that now gone now, the now that is now gone. It went and took our hard earned work with it.