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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:22 AM
Original message
Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Joan Mellen is a professor of English at Temple University. Among her works, is "A Farewell to Justice."

In the following address, she asks some excellent questions. And she provides some truth to what We the People now know about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?

by Joan Mellen
Copyright 2008 Joan Mellen. All Rights Reserved.
(ed note: this essay first appeared on

This talk was delivered on October 5, 2008 at the Wecht Institute's Symposium: Making Sense of the Sixties


Drawing on what we know as certain, the Oswald who is recognizable to us was born in New Orleans, and seems rarely to have been deprived of the company of others. Certainly, he was not a loner in Dallas where he was offered the friendship of CIA asset and so-called oil geologist (he had no degree in the subject) George de Mohrenschildt. De Mohrenschildt reported to the Domestic Contact Service (00) in Dallas on Haitian matters, the existing record shows. The quintessential unreliable narrator, a year before his death, de Mohrenschildt targeted Haroldson Lafayette Hunt as the sponsor of the Kennedy assassination. Coincidentally, H. L. Hunt was unique among Texas oil men in being a lifelong antagonist of the CIA, as has been his son, Nelson Bunker Hunt. It was, perhaps, de Mohrenschildts final Agency assignment.

Nor was Oswald particularly solitary in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 where his presence was noted at anti-Castro training camps north of Lake Pontchartrain.

Almost from the moment of his arrival in New Orleans from Texas in April 1963, Oswald sought the acquaintance of CIA and FBI assets. He attempted to infiltrate anti-Castro groups. By the time he was arrested on Canal Street in August, he was so well acquainted with the FBI field office that he told the officer interviewing him, Lieutenant Francis Martello of New Orleans police intelligence, Call the FBI. Tell them you have Lee Oswald in custody. It was a moment that Martello neglected to describe to the Warren Commission which he held in utter contempt until the end of his life, as former police intelligence officer Robert Buras, working for the House Select Committee, and a long-time Martello acquaintance, told me.

Supporting the conclusion that the CIA was behind the Kennedy assassination is the fact that in New Orleans Oswald associated only with people with intelligence connections, beginning with Arnesto Rodriguez, an FBI informant with family members rooted in the CIAs clandestine services. Rodriguez was one of FBI Special Agent Warren de Brueys informants. One day Oswald appeared at Rodriguezs office at the International Trade Mart building at 124 Camp Street. He wanted to help the Cubans, Oswald said. He wanted to be part of the training camps. Rodriguez was suspicious. Who had sent Oswald to him? he wondered. How did Oswald know that there was a training camp across the lake from us, north of Lake Pontchartrain? It was top secret at the time, yet Oswald knew about it.

Pilot David Ferrie was a CIA asset whom Oswald knew from his youth in the Civil Air Patrol and with whom he renewed his acquaintance that summer. They were joined in their travels by Clay Shaw, a CIA operative whose activities were charted by at least five CIA components. The sources who observed Oswald with Shaw and Ferrie in those hamlets north of Baton Rouge are unimpeachable, and include Dr. Frank Silva, the medical director of the East Louisiana State Hospital at Jackson where Oswald applied for a job.


Professor Mellen does an outstanding job of helping us understand the Big Picture.
While it ain't pretty, we need to see it.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you, Octafish! An enthusiastic K and R!
Edited on Wed Nov-19-08 12:34 AM by RufusTFirefly
While I haven't yet read Mellen's book, I did just finish JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters by James W. Douglass, a sad but gripping account of Kennedy's final days. It's also heavily documented.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You're welcome, RufusTFirefly! Thank you!
I read Prof. Mellen's book. It is outanding in its factual presentation and is also a great read.

Thanks, also, for the heads-up on Mr. Douglass' book. It's on my wish-list.

Regarding Oswald, you may enjoy the late Prof. Philip Melanson's Spy Saga.

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JFKfanforever Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. All you really need to know...
about Lee Harvey Oswald is summarized here:

The Angelton theory and the Wilcott testimony to the HSCA are both very interesting to read.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. Ex-CIA man James Wilcott testified to Congress that Oswald was a CIA employee.
I'm not really surprised so few Americans know his story:


James B. Wilcott, a former CIA accountant, swore in a secret session of the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he was told by other CIA employees that Lee Harvey Oswald was paid by the CIA, and that money he himself had disbursed was for "Oswald or the Oswald project." The HSCA report indicated that other CIA employees discounted Wilcott's testimony, but none of their statements were included in the report. The document excerpted below was acquired by John Armstrong after his JFK Lancer NID97 presentation. Selected pages from the National Archives are presented graphically; the remainder, to preserve bandwidth, are excerpted typographically. A link to the complete text of Wilcott's testimony is provided near the bottom of this page.




House of Representatives,

John F. Kennedy Subcommittee
of the Select Committee on

Washington, D.C.

<. . . . >


Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, would you please state your name and address and occupation?

Mr. Wilcott. My name is James B. Wilcott. My address is 2761 Atlantic Street, in Concord, and my occupation is electronic technician.

< . . . . >

Mr. Goldsmith. And, Mr. Wilcott, is it true that you are a former employee with the CIA and that you are here today testifying voluntarily without a subpoena?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. During what years did you work for the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I worked from the years, May, of 1957 to, April, of 1966.

Mr. Goldsmith. And in what general capacity did you work with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. All in the finance--in accounting all of the time.

<. . . .>

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the period immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy, at that time, did you come across any information concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's relationship with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. And will you tell the Committee what that relationship was?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it was my understanding that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee of the agency and was an agent of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. What do you mean by the term "agent?"

Mr. Wilcott. That he was a regular employee, receiving a full-time salary for agent work for doing CIA operational work.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did this information concerning Oswald first come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. The first time I heard about Oswald being connected in any way with CIA was the day after the Kennedy assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And how did that come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I was on day duty for the station. It was a guard-type function at the station, which I worked for overtime. There was a lot of excitement going on at the station after the Kennedy assassination.
Towards the end of my tour of duty, I heard certain things about Oswald somehow being connected with the agency, and I didn't really believe this when I heard it, and I thought it was absurd. Then, as time went on, I began to hear more things in that line.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think we had better go over that one more time. When, exactly, was the very first time that you heard or came across information that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I heard references to it the day after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who made these references to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I can't remember the exact persons. There was talk about it going on at the station, and several months following at the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people made this reference to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. At least--there was at least six or seven people, specifically, who said that they either knew or believed Oswald to be an agent of the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Jerry Fox one of the people that made this allegation?

Mr. Wilcott. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who is Jerry Fox?

Mr. Wilcott. Jerry Fox was a Case Officer for his branch, the Soviet Russia Branch, Station, who purchased information from the Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, did I ask you to prepare a list of CIA Case Officers working at the Station in 1963?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, you did.

<. . . .>

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first came to your attention, did you discuss it with anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes. I discussed it with my friends and the people that I was associating with socially.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who were your friends that you discussed this with?

Mr. Wilcott. George Breen, Ed Luck, and .

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was George Breen?

Mr. Wilcott. George Breen was a person in Registry, who was my closest friend while I was in .

Mr. Goldsmith. Was he a CIA employee?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he was.

Mr. Goldsmith. And would he corroborate your observation that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first came to your attention, did you learn the name of Oswald's Case Officer at the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were there any other times during your stay with the CIA at Station that you came across information that Oswald had been a CIA agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was that?

Mr. Wilcott. The specific incident was soon after the Kennedy assassination, where an agent, a Case Officer--I am sure it was a Case Officer--came up to my window to draw money, and he specifically said in the conversation that ensued, he specifically said, "Well, Jim, the money that I drew the last couple of weeks ago or so was money" either for the Oswald project or for Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember the name of this Case Officer?

Mr. Wilcott. No, I don't.

Mr Goldsmith. Do you remember when specifically this conversation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. Not specifically, only generally.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many months after the assassination was this?

Mr. Wilcott. I think it must have been two or three omths after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And do you remember were this conversation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. It was right at my window, my disbursing cage window.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you discuss this information with anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. With whom?

Mr. Wilcott. Certainly with George Breen, the circle of social friends that we had.

Mr. Goldsmith. How do you spell last name?

Mr. Wilcott. (spelling).

<. . . .>

Mr. Goldsmith. Did this Case Officer tell you what Oswald's cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he mentioned the cryptonym specifically under which the money was drawn.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what did he tell you the cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. I cannot remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your response to this revelation as to what Oswald's cryptonym was? Did you write it down or do anything?

Mr. Wilcott. No; I think that I looked through my advance book--and I had a book where the advances on project were run, and I leafed through them, and I must have at least leafed through them to see if what he said was true.



The House Select Committee found evidence for conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy and recommended to the Justice Department that they re-open the investigation. The incoming Reagan Department of Justice didn't bother.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Please accept my enthusiastic thanks for posting this! n/t
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
79. One problem--Manchester's book looked at Oswald's finances after he died.
The guy was making practically nothing and spending same.

Why wasn't the CIA pay in his bank account?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #79
112. They would never disclose his W-2 statements nor his income taxes ...
Tunnheim Paanel report/JFK Assassination Classified Recorda Act 1992 -

Their report made to Congress behind closed doors ... while Clinton was

being impeached for lying about his personal sex life --

Also, CIA Director's letter to Secret Service also acknowledges this --

that they trained him to spy in Russia --

Dee: History Channel/A&E when it actually existed--!!
Doccumentary has probably beern confiscated--!!!
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RFKJrNews Donating Member (760 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #79
140. A bit obvious, dont'cha think?
It is imperative for an agent to maintain the same standard of living to his family, friends, employer, and the outside world. Otherwise, cover blown. Period.

If Oswald's cover was as a penniless Marxist doing minimum wage grunt work at a book warehouse, eyebrows would certainly be raised if he suddenly started driving around town in a big fat Cadillac and dropping hundreds a night at the Carousel Club, y'know?

You're never going to find a money trail to Oswald's bank account. The CIA was not run by idiots.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
113. Many CIA employees came forward to attest that Oswald was CIA -- they were harassed/intimidated...
and some near killed until they all shut up --

There were no shortage of people vin Washington who pretty much knew many

of the names by the night of the assassination --

interlocking powerful coup --

No one was going to risk their own lives/families to try to OPENLY pursue it --

Thank heavens for the many dedicated, brilliant private investigators who

got the facts out to people who read --

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desktop Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
64. I have no doubt right wing elements of our government killed Kennedy
Oswald was CIA and was as he said, a setup "Patsy". Oswald may have been guilty as hell along with others, then again, he may have just been a non shooting dupe. Either way, the real persons behind this killing will probably never be known.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #64
73. Hey! The Warren Commission must be true because Gerald Ford was on the commission
and he was a decent, honest man. Poppy Bush said so at Ford's funeral, so if Poppy said it, it must be true as well. :sarcasm:
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. So was Arlen Specter.
I also believe J.Edgar Hoover had a part to play in the assasination, at least supporting it going in and covering up after.

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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Specter was an attorney to the Commission and is generally
"credited" for coming up with the magic bullet theory.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
109. David Atlee Phillips even posed as a Liberal...
In order to give cover to the right-wing coup that was the Kennedy Assassination:

Probe V7N6: James Jesus Angleton and the Kennedy Assassination: Part 2
Anne Goodpasture told Jeremy Gunn of the ARRB that she had worked at one point during her CIA career for James Angleton as a counterintelligence officer, and that it was the CI group that sent her to Mexico City in 1957.8 Asked to explain the difference between CE (counterespionage) and CI (counterintelligence), Goodpasture replied, "Counterespionage was the activity and Counterintelligence was the product."9

From Mexico, Goodpasture had worked on the case of Rudolph Abel,10 a Soviet agent working in New York City and curiously, living one apartment below famed author, FPCC activist and latter-day CIA apologist Norman Mailer.11 Angleton said of Goodpasture, "I personally have had very little dealings with her but my men had had a lot of dealings with her. She was always in on very sensitive cases."12 Goodpasture was also involved with Staff D, which was seriously involved with several coup attempts and assassination plots. To the ARRB, Goodpasture downplayed her involvement in Staff D, claiming that she was simply involved in duplicating and distributing materials.13 However, according to Angleton, Goodpasture was "very close" to Bill Harvey.14

Goodpasture maintained that in 1963 her sole duty was to the Mexico City station and Win Scott.15 Goodpasture tells us that Win Scott was "very, very conservative. He was from Alabama and I think he was a supporter of George Wallace."16

Goodpasture was later to receive a career achievement award on the recommendation of David Atlee Phillips, who cited her for having discovered Oswald at the Cuban embassy. Goodpasture was responsible for delivering the "deep snow"17 photo of the Mexico "Mystery Man". Significantly for our purposes, Goodpasture was also the liaison and in most cases, the sole point of contact, outside of Win Scott, David Phillips, and Scotts deputy, Alan White, to the other agencies of the U.S. government regarding the Mexico City stations CIA operations.18 And like too many others in this small cadre of CIA employees, Goodpasture has trouble remembering the moment of Kennedys assassination:

I think I heard about it from a phone call from our outside person on the phone tap operation, and I believe it was around lunchtime when there werent too many people there and as they all filtered back in, there was office gossip, but I have tried to remember. Ive heard so many people say I can remember, I was standing at the telephone or I was in the drugstore, or I was in church and I really dont remember who all were there at the time. Dave Phillips said that someone from the military attachs office came up and told him about it and I dont remember that....I dont even remember him being in the station at that time.19

According to Eddie Lopez, Goodpasture, in addition to her duties for Scott, ran all of David Phillips operations. When asked about Phillips politics, Goodpasture tells a story that remains redacted, a fact especially disturbing when one considers the whole purpose of the ARRB was to release previously classified materials, not to add to the secrets. But from the nature of the testimony around the redacted portion, we can gather that she is giving us some indication that Phillips was not the liberal he painted himself to be. The redaction ends with Goodpasture saying,

...but there again, I hate for things like this to be published because there are 2,000 over 2,000 books already been written. The thing that they are looking for is something of this type that they can put in the other book to come that will be just short of slander, and I feel that I shouldnt really comment on the personalities for that reason. I dont want my former co-workers or in Phillips case, his family, to think that Im trying to project him as a personality that was a show-off or something other than the very sincere wonderful man that they feel that he is

Phillips is the CIA man who most closely ties Angleton in the frequency of his appearance in the assassination story. Phillips appears to have been seen in the presence of Oswald by Antonio Veciana.21 And a "Mr. Phillips" who was running CIA operations against Cuba at a time when that was David Phillips job was seen by Gordon Novel in the presence of Guy Banister and Sergio Arcacha Smith, who were themselves in turn seen with Oswald. Oswald even rented an office in Banisters building that had previously been rented by Sergio Arcacha Smith.22 When the HSCA investigators tracked down the many false "Castro did it" leads, they kept tracing back to assets run by Phillips.23 Dan Hardway, who had much documentation to support that allegation, told Gaeton Fonzi:

Im firmly convinced now that he ran the red herring, disinformation aspects of the plot. The thing that got him so nervous was when I started mentioning all the anti-Castro Cubans who were in reports filed with the FBI for the Warren Commission and every one of them had a tie I could trace back to him. Thats what got him very upset. He knew the whole thing could unravel.24

Angleton was close friends with Win Scott and ran operations with him. Scott, in turn, was so close to Phillips that he recommended Phillips be his deputy in the Mexico City station while waiting for the next Deputy, Alan White, to arrive.25 Phillips, in turn, connects to JM/WAVE.26 JM/WAVE is another key component in the assassination story, because JM/WAVE trained assassins and participated in some of the plots against Castro. The line between Des FitzGeralds Special Affairs Staff (the replacement for Harveys Task Force W) and the actions of JM/Wave is blurred...
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #109
142. Averill Harriman and John Foster Dulles too...
The Posthumous Assassination of JFK

There can be no doubt that the right hated the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. There is also little doubt that some who hated JFK had a role in covering up his death. One could use Secret Service agent Elmer Moore as an example. As revealed in Probe (Vol. 4 No. 3, pp. 20-21), Moore told one Jim Gochenaur how he was in charge of the Dallas doctors testimony in the JFK case. One of his assignments as liaison for the Warren Commission seems to have been talking Dr. Malcolm Perry out of his original statement that the throat wound was one of entry, which would have indicated an assassin in front of Kennedy. But another thing Gochenaur related in his Church Committee interview was the tirade that Moore went into the longer he talked to him: how Kennedy was a pinko who was selling us out to the communists. This went on for hours. Gochenaur was actually frightened by the time Moore drove him home.

But there is another more insidious strain of the rightwing in America. These are the conservatives who sometimes disguise themselves as Democrats, as liberals, as internationalists. This group is typified by men like Averill Harriman, Henry Stimson, John Foster Dulles and the like. The common rubric used to catalog them is the Eastern Establishment. The Kennedy brothers were constantly at odds with them. In 1962, Bobby clashed with Dean Acheson during the missile crisis. Acheson wanted a surprise attack; Bobby rejected it saying his brother would not go down in history as another Tojo. In 1961, JFK disobeyed their advice at the Bay of Pigs and refused to add air support to the invasion. He was punished for this in Fortune magazine with an article by Time-Life employee Charles Murphy that blamed Kennedy for the failure of the plan. Kennedy stripped Murphy of his Air Force reserve status but Murphy wrote to Edward Lansdale that didnt matter; his loyalty was to Allen Dulles anyway. In 1963, Kennedy crossed the Rubicon and actually printed money out of the Treasury, bypassing that crowning jewel of Wall Street, the Federal Reserve Board. And as Donald Gibson has written, a member of this group, Jock Whitney, was the first to put out the cover story about that Krazy Kid Oswald on 11/22/63 (Probe Vol. 4 No.1)...
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. The Good Spy
Here's another story that is little-known, the story of John Whitten, a CIA man who tried to get to the truth about the assassination. All he got for his trouble was reassigned to the slow-lane.

The good spy: how the quashing of an honest C.I.A. investigator helped launch 40 years of JFK conspiracy theories and cynicism about the Feds

Jefferson Morley
Washington Monthly Dec, 2003

It was 1:30 in the morning of Nov. 23, 1963, and John F. Kennedy had been dead for 12 hours. His corpse was being dressed at Bethesda Naval Hospital, touched and retouched to conceal the ugly bullet wounds. In Dallas, the F.B.I. had Lee Harvey Oswald in custody.

The lights were still on at the Central Intelligence Agency's headquarters in Langley, Va. John Whitten, the agency's 43-year-old chief of covert operations for Mexico and Central America, hung up the phone with has Mexico City station chief. He had just learned something stunning: A C.I.A. surveillance team in Mexico City had photographed Oswald at the Cuban consulate in early October, an indication that the agency might be able to quickly uncover the suspect's background.

At 1:36 am, Whitten sent a cable to Mexico City: "Send staffer with all photos of Oswald to HQ on the next available flight. Call Mr. Whitten at 652-6827." Within 24 hours Whitten was leading the C.I.A. investigation into the assassination. After two weeks of reviewing classified cables, he had learned that Oswald's pro-Castro political activities needed closer examination, especially has attempt to shoot a right-wing JFK critic, a diary of has efforts to confront anti-Castro exiles in New Orleans, and has public support for the pro-Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee. For this investigatory zeal, Whitten was taken off the case.

C.I.A. Deputy Director of Plans Richard Helms blocked Whitten's efforts, effectively ending any hope of a comprehensive agency investigation of the accused assassin, a 24-year-old ex-Marine, who had sojourned in the Soviet Union and spent time as a leftist activist in New Orleans. In particular, Oswald's Cuba-related political life, which Whitten wished to pursue, went unexplored by the C.I.A. The blueribbon Warren commission appointed by President Johnson concluded in September 1964 that Oswald alone and unaided had killed Kennedy. But over the years, as information which the commission's report had not accounted for leaked out, many would come to see the commission as a cover-up, in part because it failed to assign any motive to Oswald, in part because the government's pre-assassination surveillance of Oswald had been more intense than the government ever cared to disclose, and finally because its reconstruction of the crime sequence was flawed.

Both the story of Oswald and the C.I.A., and the way in which it leaked out in bits and pieces fueled a generation of conspiracy-minded authors, journalists, and filmmakers who mined Richard Helms's dubious legacy--a rich vein of ominous ambiguity and unanswered questions about one of the most jarring events of modern American history. The untimely end to Whitten's investigation, which prevented a public airing of what the government actually knew, also contributed to a generation of public cynicism about Washington--to a national mythology of skullduggery, and the suspicion that secret agencies in Washington were up to no good and the truth never gets out. In the decades since Kennedy's death, the "rogue C.I.A. assassin" has become a stock Hollywood character, his villainy engrained in spy movies and the popular culture.

Whitten's story, told here for the first time, has an uncomfortable new resonance today, as the Bush administration tries to thwart investigation into, among other things, what our intelligence agencies knew about Saddam's WMD programs before we went to war with Iraq. Whitten was a rare C.I.A. hero in the Kennedy assassination story whose personal odyssey is a poignant but unsettling reminder that inquiries into a national tragedy can be compromised early on. Intelligence mandarins, seeking to protect their positions, can override independent subordinates. Official deceptions can take decades to unravel. Embarrassing secrets, however, don't simply go away; eventually, they filter out, as the Kennedy case shows, often doing more harm to the country than they would have had the public known the truth earlier.


Going by the numbers, we are on the right track. Thanks for giving a damn, ToolTex!
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123infinity Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
I hope you're not part of the tinfoil brigade on this............????????????????????

Mr. Rubin
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. On message: Another aging Warren Commission witness comes clean
Oswald co-worker no longer silent about JFK assassination role

(Also cited in the aforementioned JFK and the Unspeakable, as are the stories of Ralph Frazier (institutionalized after he passed an FBI polygraph that contradicted the official story) and Abraham Bolden, JFK's first African-American Secret Service agent, who was sentenced to six years in prison after voicing concerns about the President's inadequate protection.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. What happened to the curtain rods?
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Oswald apparently brought them to work twice!!

A man named Ralph Yates testified that he gave "Oswald" and his "curtain rods" a lift, two days before Frazier told a similar story. Yates was the one who was institutionalized. Because he passed a polygraph, he was obviously lying. Which meant he was nuts, of course.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
42. After 40 Years, the First National Security Whistleblower Still Seeks Justice
For those new to the story, Abraham Bolden was the first African American member of the Secret Service. He stated he thought President Kennedy was the victim of a conspiracy and soon thereafter found himself in prison.

After 40 Years, the First National Security Whistleblower Still Seeks Justice

by Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartmann
Published on Friday, February 17, 2006, by

After an outstanding career in law enforcement, Abraham Bolden was appointed by John F. Kennedy to be the first African American presidential Secret Service agent, where he served with distinction. But you haven't heard about Abraham Bolden during Black History month, because after helping to prevent JFK's assassination in the weeks before Dallas, Bolden was arrested on the very day he went to Washington to tell the Warren Commission about those attempts. Caught in a maze of National Security concerns that only became clear after four million pages of JFK files were released in the 1990s, Bolden was sentenced to six years in prison, becoming America's first National Security Whistleblower.


Yet in November 1963, John and Robert Kennedy were able to keep two assassination plots against JFK that month out of the media at the time. The first was in Chicago, on November 2, 1963--when JFK had to cancel his trip and motorcade at the last minute--and the second was during JFK's long motorcade through Tampa, Florida on November 18, 1963, just four days before Dallas. Both the Chicago and Tampa plots had many similarities to Dallas, yet they were withheld from the news media and most investigators.

Bolden was involved in investigating the Chicago plot and was informed about the similar Tampa attempt. Bolden's own testimony to a Congressional Committee about the Chicago plot was kept secret for over fifteen years, but when finally released in the 1990s, it supported other information that had emerged about the plot over the years.

Unknown to Bolden until recently, the crux of all this secrecy about the attempts to assassinate JFK in Chicago, Tampa, and Dallas were John and Robert Kennedys' "Plan for a Coup in Cuba" to overthrow Fidel Castro on December 1, 1963. The most secret operation of the Kennedy years, the CIA side of the operation was code-named AMWORLD, a term withheld from five Congressional investigations (and the Warren Commission) and declassified only in the 1990s. It appeared in print for the first time just three months ago. Using declassified files from the National Archives, we found that in the days, weeks, and months before Dallas, Robert Kennedy had a secret government committee looking at how the US could deal with the "assassination of American officials" if Castro found out about the Kennedys' coup plan, and tried to retaliate.

The thinking behind such plans--and worries that the revelation of the Kennedy coup plan could trigger another nuclear confrontation with the Soviets just a year after the Cuban Missile Crisis--was behind most of the secrecy surrounding JFK's assassination. However, key officials in agencies like the FBI, the CIA, and the Secret Service also used the excuse of National Security to withheld information that could have been embarrassing to them.


Bolden went to Washington in the Spring of 1964 to tell Warren Commission staff about the Chicago and Tampa attempts, and other Secret Service laxity, such as late night drinking bouts by the agents. News reports of the late-night drinking of Secret Service agents the night before JFK's assassination were threatening to become a major scandal, but the Secret Service couldn't reveal that the agents were blowing off steam after the stress of the recent plots against JFK in Chicago and Tampa. While Warren Commission staff had heard vague rumors of the Chicago plot, they had been told nothing about the Tampa attempt (which would continued to be withheld from the later Congressional investigations into JFK's assassination).

Bolden was arrested the day he arrived in Washington to talk to Warren Commission staff.

Bolden himself had previously arrested both of his accusers, one of whom later admitted committing perjury against Bolden. But the Chicago judge told the jury he felt Bolden was guilty, and Bolden was convicted and sentenced to six years in jail. Former Senate investigator and top Freedom of Information attorney Bud Fensterwald looked into Bolden's case and concluded that Bolden had been framed. After reviewing Fensterwald's files, we tracked down additional information about the Chicago mobster that Bolden's accusers worked for, whose gangster associate had infiltrated AMWORLD. The Mafia knew the Secret Service wouldn't defend Bolden because of his accusations of laxity, and that others in the government couldn't come to Bolden's aide because of National Security concerns.


I had not seen the Frazier article. Thank you, again, RufusTFirefly! Wow. From the Dallas Morning News:

"I wasn't surprised," Mr. Frazier said. "They seemed to have a prearranged agenda when they questioned Linnie and me. Our refusal to agree with their agenda simply caused them to state that we were mistaken."

Someone bet a life, somewhere.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Hugh Aynesworth played an important role in the media cover-up of the assassination of JFK
As I point out here...
I'd be wary of anything that Hugh Aynesworth writes.

And that frankly applies to Waldron and Hartmann as well:

Len and Jim talk about the disinformation campaign that has gone on for years in the JFK case here and that Ultimate Sacrifice was just an extension of Gus Russo's attempt to sidetrack serious research.

Len also points out that this is a common disinformation technique .. Take the name of an operation that is well known (JM-WAVE) and attempt to confuse the casual observer of the case by advancing a dubious/phony operation of a similar name (AMWORLD).

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Abraham Bolden and Ralph Yates too...
Edited on Wed Nov-19-08 09:05 PM by MinM
I'll say this much for the Aynesworth story -- It sounds very similar to the story of Ralph Yates:

JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters
Most of us are aware of what happened to Richard Case Nagell. How he was railroaded and incarcerated after he was arrested in El Paso, Texas on September 20, 1963. (pgs. 152-158) But Douglass sheds light on what happened to three other important witnesses. Jim Wilcott and his wife worked for the Agency out of the Tokyo station. On the day of the assassination, Wilcott pulled a 24-hour security shift. That evening, more than one employee told him that the CIA had to have been involved in Kennedy's killing. When Wilcott asked how they knew this, the response was that they had handled disbursements for him under a cryptonym. Also, he had been trained by the Agency as a double agent at Atsugi. (pgs. 146-147) Later, both Jim and his wife quit the Agency. They then went public with their knowledge. Jim lost his private sector job, started receiving threatening phone calls, and had the tires on his car slashed.

Abraham Bolden was a Secret Service agent who had asked to leave the White House in 1961. He did not care for the lackadaisical practices of the White House detail. (p. 200) On October 30, 1963 Bolden was in Chicago when the local agents were briefed on what they knew about an attempt being planned on JFK's life there. After Vallee's arrest and the foiling of the plot, Bolden felt a foreboding about Kennedy's upcoming trip to Dallas. When Kennedy was killed, Bolden noted the similarities between what had occurred in Dallas and what almost occurred in Chicago. In May of 1964 he was in Washington for a Secret Service training program. (p. 215) He tried to contact the Warren Commission about what he knew. The day after his call to J. Lee Rankin, he was sent back to Chicago. Upon his arrival he was arrested. The pretense was that he was trying to sell Secret Service files to a counterfeiter. Upon his arraignment he was formally charged with fraud, obstruction of justice, and conspiracy. (Ibid) Needless to say, Bolden was convicted based upon perjured testimony. (The phony witness later admitted this himself.) He was imprisoned at Springfield where he was placed in a psychiatric unit. (p. 216) He was given mind-numbing drugs. But other inmates alerted him to the nature of the drugs in advance. So he knew how to fake taking the pills. While in prison, his family endured a bombing of their home, setting fire to their garage, and a sniper shooting through their window. Mark Lane, while working for Garrison, visited him in 1967. Lane then wrote about Bolden's knowledge of the plot in Chicago. When the prison authorities learned about this, they placed Bolden in solitary confinement. He was finally released in 1969.

Compared to the fate of Ralph Yates, Bolden did all right. On November 20, 1963 Yates was making his rounds as a refrigerator mechanic for the Texas Butcher Supply Company in Dallas. That morning he picked up a hitchhiker on the R. L. Thornton Expressway. The man had a package with him that was wrapped in brown paper. When Yates asked him if he would prefer to place it in the back of the pickup, the passenger said no. They were curtain rods and he would rather keep them in the cab. (p. 351) The conversation rolled around to the subject of Kennedy's upcoming visit. The man asked Yates if he thought it was possible to kill Kennedy while he was there. Yates said that yes, it was possible. The hitchhiker then asked if Yates knew the motorcade route. Yates said he did not, but it had been in the paper. The man asked if he thought it would now be changed. Yates said that he doubted it. The passenger asked to be let off at a stoplight near Elm and Houston. Yates then returned to his shop and told his colleague Dempsey Jones about the strange conversation. (p. 352)

After the assassination, Yates noted the hitchhiker's resemblance to Oswald. So he volunteered his experience with him to the FBI. They brought him back for a total of four interviews. It became clear they did not want to believe him. The reason being that Oswald was not supposed to be on the expressway at that time. They finally gave him a polygraph test. The agents then told Yates' wife that, according to the machine, her husband was telling the truth. But, they concluded, the reason was that "he had convinced himself that he was telling the truth. So that's how it came out." (p. 354) The FBI told Yates that he needed help. So they sent him to Woodlawn Hospital, where he was admitted as a psychiatric patient. To quote the author, "From that point on, he spent the remaining eleven years of his life as a patient in and out of mental health hospitals. " (Ibid) Such was the price for disturbing the equilibrium of the official story...

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jxnmsdemguy65 Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. Just finished reading Bolden's book and it is pretty good...
becomes sort a boring court transcript, but makes some interesting points. Worth picking up at the library. Watching PBS's repeat broadcast of 'Oswalds Ghost' the other night, I was especially struck how Kennedy's limousine slows to a near complete stop in the instant before the fatal head shot. Watch the Zapruder film close enough, it is undeniable. The Secret Service was in on this hit.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
114. Good book putting a lot on record for history ...again many wetre intimidated --
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. He was a patsy like Oswald said that he was
The veil of reality is pleasant until you start finding out
that your reality is being destroyed by the economic meltdown
and try to find out why these institutions you trusted were just
an empty house of cards that maintain power over you by illusion

There is a hidden criminality wrapped around religion
and banks that are intertwined in a snakelike ball of orgasmic
mutually criminality. The moonies and St. Paul's Cathedral
is not as far away from earth as you think.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
76. The Last Words of Lee Harvey Oswald
From Mae Brussell:


Compiled by Mae Brussell

Did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone in shooting Pres. John F. Kennedy on Nov. 22, 1963, or did he conspire with others? Was he serving as an agent of Cuba's Fidel Castro, himself the target of American assassins? Or in squeezing the trigger of his carbine was he undertaking some super "dirty trick" for a CIA anxious to rid itself of a president whose faith in the "company" had evaporated in the wake of the Bay of Pigs fiasco? Or was he representing a group of Cuban exiles, the Teamsters Union, the Mafia? Indeed, was it Lee Harvey Oswald at all who killed JFK? Or was there a double impersonating Oswald? These questions continue to nag many people more than a decade and a half after that dreadful day in Dallas, in spite of the 26 volumes of hearings and exhibits served up by the Warren Commission, the congressional investigations, the release of heretofore classified FBI documents.

Almost everyone, it seems, has been heard from on the Kennedy assassination and on Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt or innocence, except one person -- Lee Harvey Oswald himself. From the time of Oswald's arrest to his own assassination at the hands of Jack Ruby, no formal transcript or record was kept of statements made by the alleged killer. It was said that no tape recordings were made of Oswald's remarks, and many notes taken of his statements were destroyed.

Determined to learn Oswald's last words, his only testimony, "The People's Almanac" assigned one of the leading authorities on the Kennedy assassination, Mae Brussell, to compile every known statement or remark made by Oswald between his arrest and death. The quotes, edited for space and clarity, are based on the recollections of a variety of witnesses present at different times and are not verbatim transcripts. "After 14 years of research on the JFK assassination," Mae Brussell concludes, "I am of the opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald was telling the truth about his role in the assassination during these interrogations."

12:30 P.M., CST, NOV. 22, 1963
Pres. John F. Kennedy Assassinated

12:33 P.M.

Lee Harvey Oswald left work, entered a bus, and said, "Transfer, please."

12:40 - 12:45 P.M.

Oswald got off the bus, entered a cab, and said, "May I have this cab?" A woman approached, wanting a cab, and Oswald said, "I will let you have this one. . . . 500 North Beckley Street . . . . This will be fine." Oswald departed cab and walked a few blocks.

1:15 P.M. Officer J. D. Tippit Murdered

1:45 P.M. Arrest at the Texas Theater

"This is it" or "Well, it's all over now." Oswald arrested. (Patrolman M. N. McDonald heard these remarks. Other officers who were at the scene did not hear them.) "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol into a movie. . . . I don't see why you handcuffed me. . . . Why should I hide my face? I haven't done anything to be ashamed of. . . . I want a lawyer. . . . I am not resisting arrest. . . . I didn't kill anybody. . . . I haven't shot anybody. . . . I protest this police brutality. . . . I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun. . . . What is this all about?"

2:00 - 2:15 P.M. Drive to Police Dept.

"What is this all about? . . . I know my rights. . . . A police officer has been killed? . . . I hear they burn for murder. Well, they say it just takes a second to die. . . . All I did was carry a gun. . . . No, Hidell is not my real name. . . . I have been in the Marine Corps, have a dishonorable discharge, and went to Russia. . . . I had some trouble with police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature. . . . Why are you treating me this way? . . . I am not being handled right. . . . I demand my rights."

2:15 P.M. Taken into Police Dept.

2:15 - 2:20 P.M.

"Talked to" by officers Guy F. Rose and Richard S. Stovall. No notes.

2:25 - 4:04 P.M. Interrogation of Oswald, Office of Capt Will Fritz

"My name is Lee Harvey Oswald. . . . I work at the Texas School Book Depository Building. . . . I lived in Minsk and in Moscow. . . . I worked in a factory. . . . I liked everything over there except the weather. . . . I have a wife and some children. . . . My residence is 1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Tex." Oswald recognized FBI agent James Hosty and said, "You have been at my home two or three times talking to my wife. I don't appreciate your coming out there when I was not there. . . . I was never in Mexico City. I have been in Tijuana. . . . Please take the handcuffs from behind me, behind my back. . . . I observed a rifle in the Texas School Book Depository where I work, on Nov. 20, 1963. . . . Mr. Roy Truly, the supervisor, displayed the rifle to individuals in his office on the first floor. . . . I never owned a rifle myself. . . . I resided in the Soviet Union for three years, where I have many friends and relatives of my wife. . . . I was secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans a few months ago. . . . While in the Marines, I received an award for marksmanship as a member of the U.S. Marine Corps. . . . While living on Beckley Street, I used the name 0. H. Lee. . . . I was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building, I have been employed there since Oct. 15, 1963. . . . As a laborer, I have access to the entire building. . . . My usual place of work is on the first floor. However, I frequently use the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh floors to get books. I was on all floors this morning. . . . Because of all the confusion, I figured there would be no work performed that afternoon so I decided to go home. . . . I changed my clothing and went to a movie. . . . I carried a pistol with me to the movie because I felt like it, for no other reason. . . . I fought the Dallas Police who arrested me in the movie theater where I received a cut and a bump. . . . I didn't shoot Pres. John F. Kennedy or Officer J. D. Tippit. . . . An officer struck me, causing the marks on my left eye, after I had struck him. . . . I just had them in there," when asked why he had bullets in his pocket.

3:54 P.M.

NBC newsman Bill Ryan announced on national television that "Lee Oswald seems to be the prime suspect in the assassination of John F. Kennedy."

4:45 P.M. At a Lineup for Helen Markham, Witness to Tippit Murder

"It isn't right to put me in line with these teenagers. . . . You know what you are doing, and you are trying to railroad me. . . . I want my lawyer. . . . You are doing me an injustice by putting me out there dressed different than these other men. . . . I am out there, the only one with a bruise on his head. . . . I don t believe the lineup is fair, and I desire to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other individuals in the lineup. . . . All of you have a shirt on, and I have a T-shirt on. I want a shirt or something. . . . This T-shirt is unfair."

4:45 - 6:30 P.M. Second Interrogation of Oswald, Captain Fritz's Office

"When I left the Texas School Book Depository, I went to my room, where I changed my trousers, got a pistol, and went to a picture show. . . . You know how boys do when they have a gun, they carry it. . . . Yes, I had written the Russian Embassy. (On Nov. 9, 1963, Oswald had written to the Russian Embassy that FBI agent James Hosty was making some kind of deals with Marina, and he didn't trust "the notorious FBI.") . . . Mr. Hosty, you have been accosting my wife. You mistreated her on two different occasions when you talked with her. . . . I know you. Well, he threatened her. He practically told her she would have to go back to Russia. You know, I can't use a phone. . . . I want that attorney in New York, Mr. Abt. I don't know him personally but I know about a case that he handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, . . . I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want. . . . If I can't get him, then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to send me an attorney."
"I went to school in New York and in Fort Worth, Tex. . . . After getting into the Marines, I finished my high school education. . . . I support the Castro revolution. . . . My landlady didn't understand my name correctly, so it was her idea to call me 0. H. Lee. . . . I want to talk with Mr. Abt, a New York attorney. . . . The only package I brought to work was my lunch. . . . I never had a card to the Communist party. . . . I am a Marxist, but not a Leninist-Marxist. . . . I bought a pistol in Fort Worth several months ago. . . . I refuse to tell you where the pistol was purchased. . . . I never ordered any guns. . . . I am not malcontent. Nothing irritated me about the President." When Capt. Will Fritz asked Oswald, "Do you believe in a deity?" Oswald replied, "I don't care to discuss that." "How can I afford a rifle on the Book Depository salary of $1.25 an hour? . . . John Kennedy had a nice family. . . ." (Sheriff Roger Craig saw Oswald enter a white station wagon 15 minutes after the assassination. Oswald confirmed this in Captain Fritz's office. A man impersonating Oswald in Dallas just prior to the assassination could have been on the bus and in the taxicab.) "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Ruth Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it. I told you people I did. . . . Everybody will know who I am now."
"Can I get an attorney?. . . I have not been given the opportunity to have counsel. . . . As I said, the Fair Play for Cuba Committee has definitely been investigated, that is very true. . . . The results of that investigation were zero. The Fair Play for Cuba Committee is not now on the attorney general's subversive list."

6:30 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses Cecil J. McWatters, Sam Guinyard, and Ted Callaway

"I didn't shoot anyone," Oswald yelled in the halls to reporters. . . . "I want to get in touch with a lawyer, Mr. Abt, in New York City. . . . I never killed anybody."

7:10 P.M. Arraignment: State of Texas v. Lee Harvey Oswald for Murder with Malice of Officer J. D. Tippit of the Dallas Police Dept.

"I insist upon my constitutional rights. . . . The way you are treating me, I might as well be in Russia. . . . I was not granted my request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by other individuals in some previous lineups."

7:50 P.M. Lineup for Witness J. D. Davis

"I have been dressed differently than the other three. . . . Don't you know the difference? I still have on the same clothes I was arrested in. The other two were prisoners, already in jail." Seth Kantor, reporter, heard Oswald yell, "I am only a patsy."

7:55 P.M. Third Interrogation, Captain Fritz's Office

"I think I have talked long enough. I don't have anything else to say. . . . What started out to be a short interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy. . . . I don't care to talk anymore. . . . I am waiting for someone to come forward to give me legal assistance. . . . It wasn't actually true as to how I got home. I took a bus, but due to a traffic jam, I left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means I actually arrived at my residence."

8:55 P.M. Fingerprints, Identification Paraffin Tests -- All in Fritz's Office

"I will not sign the fingerprint card until I talk to my attorney. . . . What are you trying to prove with this paraffin test, that I fired a gun? . . . You are wasting your time. I don't know anything about what you are accusing me."

11:00 - 11:20 P.M. "Talked To" by Police Officer John Adamcik and FBI Agent M. Clements

"I was in Russia two years and liked it in Russia. . . . I am 5 ft. 9 in., weigh 140 lb., have brown hair, blue-gray eyes, and have no tattoos or permanent scars."

(Oswald had mastoidectomy scars and left upper-arm scars, both noted in Marine records. "Warren Report," pp. 614-618, lists information from Oswald obtained during this interview about members of his family, past employment, past residences.)

11:20 - 11:25 P.M. Lineup for Press Conference; Jack Ruby Present

When newsmen asked Oswald about his black eye, he answered, "A cop hit me." When asked about the earlier arraignment, Oswald said "Well, I was questioned by Judge Johnston. However, I protested at that time that I was not allowed legal representation during that very short and sweet hearing. I really don't know what the situation is about. Nobody has told me anything except that I am accused of murdering a policeman. I know nothing more than that, and I do request someone to come forward to give me legal assistance." When asked, "Did you kill the President?" Oswald replied, "No. I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question. . . . I did not do it. I did not do it. . . . I did not shoot anyone."

12:23 A.M., NOV. 23, 1963 Placed in Jail Cell

12:35 A.M. Released by Jailer

Oswald complained, "This is the third set of fingerprints, photographs being taken."

1:10 A.M. Back in Jail Cell

1:35 A.M. Arraignment: State of Texas v. Lee Harvey Oswald for the Murder with Malice of John F. Kennedy

"Well, sir, I guess this is the trial. . . . I want to contact my lawyer, Mr. Abt, in New York City. I would like to have this gentleman. He is with the American Civil Liberties Union." (John J. Abt now in private practice in New York, was the general counsel for the Senate Sub-Committee on Civil Liberties from 1935-1937, and later served as legal adviser for the Progressive party from 1948-1951. Mr. Abt has never been a member of the ACLU.)

10:30 A.M.-1:10 P.M. Interrogation, Capt. Will Fritz's Office

"I said I wanted to contact Attorney Abt, New York. He defended the Smith Act cases in 1949, 1950, but I don't know his address, except that it is in New York. . . . I never owned a rifle. . . . Michael Paine owned a car, Ruth Paine owned two cars. . . . Robert Oswald, my brother, lives in Fort Worth. He and the Paines were closest friends in town. . . . The FBI has thoroughly interrogated me at various other times. . . . They have used their hard and soft approach to me, and they use the buddy system. . . . I am familiar with all types of questioning and have no intention of making any statements. . . . In the past three weeks the FBI has talked to my wife. They were abusive and impolite. They frightened my wife, and I consider their activities obnoxious."
(When arrested, Oswald had FBI Agent James Hosty's home phone and office phone numbers and car license number in his possession.)
"I was arrested in New Orleans for disturbing the peace and paid a $10 fine for demonstrating for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I had a fight with some anti-Castro refugees and they were released while I was fined. . . . I refuse to take a polygraph. It has always been my practice not to agree to take a polygraph . . . The FBI has overstepped their bounds in using various tactics in interviewing me. . . . I didn't shoot John Kennedy. . . . I didn't even know Gov. John Connally had been shot. . . . I don't own a rifle. . . . I didn't tell Buell Wesley Frazier anything about bringing back some curtain rods. . . . My wife lives with Mrs. Ruth Paine. She was learning Russian. They needed help with the young baby, so it made a nice arrangement for both of them. . . . I don't know Mrs. Paine very well, but Mr. Paine and his wife were separated a great deal of the time."
(Michael Paine worked at Bell Aerospace as a scientific engineer. His boss, Walter Dornberger, was a Nazi war criminal. The first call, the "tipoff," on Oswald, came from Bell Aerospace.)
"The garage at the Paines' house has some seabags that have a lot of my personal belongings. I left them after coming back from New Orleans in September. . . . The name Alek Hidell was picked up while working in New Orleans in the Fair Play for Cuba organization. . . . I speak Russian, correspond with people in Russia, and receive newspapers from Russia. . . . I don't own a rifle at all. . . . I did have a small rifle some years in the past. You can't buy a rifle in Russia, you can only buy shotguns. I had a shotgun in Russia and hunted some while there. I didn't bring the rifle from New Orleans. . . . I am not a member of the Communist party. . . . I belong to the Civil Liberties Union. . . . I did carry a package to the Texas School Book Depository. I carried my lunch, a sandwich and fruit, which I made at Paine's house. . . . I had nothing personal against John Kennedy."

1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald

(To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing."
(To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June."

2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley

"I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair."

3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit

"I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."
(Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.")

3:40 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Calls Mrs. Ruth Paine

"This is Lee. Would you please call John Abt in New York for me after 6:00 P.M. The number for his office is ___________, and his residence is _______________ . . . . Thank you for your concern."

5:30 - 5:35 P.M. Visit with H. Louis Nichols, President of the Dallas Bar Association

"Well, I really don't know what this is all about, that I have been kept incarcerated and kept incommunicado. . . . Do you know a lawyer in New York named John Abt? I believe in New York City. I would like to have him represent me. That is the man I would like. Do you know any lawyers who are members of the American Civil Liberties Union? I am a member of that organization, and I would like to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." Mr. Nichols offered to help find a lawyer, but Oswald said, "No, not now. You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of these other people to assist me, I might ask you to get somebody to represent me."

6:00 - 6:30 P.M. Interrogation, Captain Fritz's Office

"In time I will be able to show you that this is not my picture, but I don't want to answer any more questions. . . . I will not discuss this photograph without advice of an attorney. . . . There was another rifle in the building. I have seen it. Warren Caster had two rifles, a 30.06 Mauser and a .22 for his son. . . . That picture is not mine, but the face is mine. The picture has been made by superimposing my face. The other part of the picture is not me at all, and I have never seen this picture before. I understand photography real well, and that, in time, I will be able to show you that is not my picture and that it has been made by someone else. . . . It was entirely possible that the Police Dept. has superimposed this part of the photograph over the body of someone else. . . . The Dallas Police were the culprits. . . . The small picture was reduced from the larger one, made by some persons unknown to me. . . . Since I have been photographed at City Hall, with people taking my picture while being transferred from the office to the jail door, someone has been able to get a picture of my face, and with that, they have made this picture. . . . I never kept a rifle at Mrs. Paine's garage at Irving, Tex. . . . We had no visitors at our apartment on North Beckley. . . . I have no receipts for purchase of any gun, and I have never ordered any guns. I do not own a rifle, never possessed a rifle. . . . I will not say who wrote A. J. Hidell on my Selective Service card. . . . I will not tell you the purpose of carrying the card or the use I made of it. . . . The address book in my possession has the names of Russian immigrants in Dallas, Tex., whom I have visited."

9:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Calls His Wife, Marina, at Mrs. Paine's Home

"Marina, please. Would you try to locate her?" (Marina had moved.)

10:00 P.M. Office of Captain Fritz

"Life is better for the colored people in Russia than it is in the U.S."

9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963 Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office

"After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself, so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the elevator, but send the elevator back up.' . . . After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . . . If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City. I went to the Russian Embassy to go to Russia by way of Cuba. They told me to come back in `thirty days.' . . . I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat. Mr. Frazier must have been mistaken or else thinking about the other time when he picked me up. . . . The Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers. Probably you can call me the secretary of it because I did collect money. . . . In New York City they have a well-organized, or a better, organization. . . . No, not at all: I didn't intend to organize here in Dallas; I was too busy trying to get a job. . . . If anyone else was entitled to get mail in P.O. Box 6525 at the Terminal Annex in New Orleans, the answer is no. . . . The rental application said Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union. Maybe I put them on there. . . . It is possible that on rare occasions I may have handed one of the keys to my wife to get my mail, but certainly nobody else. . . . I never ordered a rifle under the name of Hidell, Oswald, or any other name. . . . I never permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be received in this box. . . . I never ordered any rifle by mail order or bought any money order for the purpose of paying for such a rifle. . . . I didn't own any rifle. I have not practiced or shot with a rifle. . . . I subscribe to two publications from Russia, one being a hometown paper published in Minsk, where I met and married my wife. . . . We moved around so much that it was more practical to simply rent post office boxes and have mail forwarded from one box to the next rather than going through the process of furnishing changes of address to the publishers. . . . Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell were listed under the caption of persons entitled to receive mail through my box in New Orleans. . . . I don't recall anything about the A. J. Hidell being on the post office card. . . . I presume you have reference to a map I had in my room with some X's on it. I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. I had my applications with the Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might get. . . . I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so I could plan my itinerary around with less walking. Each one of these X's represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job. . . . You can check each one of them out if you want to. . . . The X on the intersection of Elm and Houston is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got the job there. That is all the map amounts to. . . . What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . I told you I haven't shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps. . . . I never received a package sent to me through the mailbox in Dallas, Box No. 2915, under the name of Alek Hidell, absolutely not. . . . Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got this mail, but it is possible she could have." Oswald was told that an attorney offered to assist him, and he answered, "I don't particularly want him, but I will take him if I can't do any better, and will contact him at a later date. . . . I have been a student of Marxism since the age of 14. . . . American people will soon forget the President was shot, but I didn't shoot him. . . . Since the President was killed, someone else would take his place, perhaps Vice-President Johnson. His views about Cuba would probably be largely the same as those of President Kennedy. . . . I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there. . . . It might not be proper to answer further questions, because what I say might be construed in a different light than what I actually meant it to be. . . . When the head of any government dies, or is killed, there is always a second in command who would take over. . . . I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the President and Tippit."

11:10 A.M. Preparation for Oswald's Transfer to County Jail

"I would like to have a shirt from clothing that was brought to the office to wear over the T-shirt I am wearing. . . . I prefer wearing a black Ivy League-type shirt, which might be a little warmer. I don't want a hat. . . . I will just take one of those sweaters, the black one."

11:15 A.M. Inspector Thomas J. Kelley, U.S. Secret Service, Has Final Conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald

Kelley approached Oswald, out of the hearing of others, except perhaps Captain Fritz's men, and said that as a Secret Service agent, he was anxious to talk with him as soon as he secured counsel, because Oswald was charged with the assassination of the President but had denied it. Oswald said, "I will be glad to discuss this proposition with my attorney, and that after I talk with one, we could either discuss it with him or discuss it with my attorney, if the attorney thinks it is a wise thing to do, but at the present time I have nothing more to say to you."

11:21 A.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Was Fatally Wounded by Jack Ruby


Infinite thanks, Ichingcarpenter. Your understanding and caring have lightened my maddening load.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #76
129. Thanks for posting.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
9. David Ferrie was born in 1918 and Oswald in 1938.
I'm not sure who is meant by second from left. But David Ferrie would have been 20 years older than Oswald. Who in that picture would have been that old?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. The second man from the left is clearly older than the others.
Edited on Wed Nov-19-08 04:21 AM by aquart
Oswald was a shrimp, wasn't he?

On edit: all three men on the far left are older than the other men in the picture. I'd put Ferrie as the oldest, with the third man from the left being next to him in age. Bodies have age distinctions that are pretty obvious (sadly).
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. that picture is Oswald as a teenager
and David Ferrie is one of the adults who led the group.

this photo is not in dispute. It has been part of the public record of people and places of that time for years.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #36
62. I thought Ferrie looked the same age as the teenagers.
But, as I always say, the older I get, the younger everyone else gets. A 40 year old looks young to me.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
77. PBS - More about the Ferrie Photo
This picture has the two encircled:

From the PBS Frontline special, "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?"

More about the Ferrie Photo

PBS Frontline

FRONTLINE obtained this photograph from John B. Ciravolo, Jr., of New Orleans. Ciravolo was also a C.A.P. member in 1955 and says he was in the same unit with Oswald and was standing right in front of him in the photo. Ciravolo identified David Ferrie, while former C.A.P. cadet Tony Atzenhoffer, also of New Orleans, identified Oswald and Ferrie in the photograph, and Colin Hammer, who says he served with both men in the C.A.P., also identified both in the photograph.

FRONTLINE located the photographer, Chuck Frances, who says he took the picture for the C.A.P. Francis also said that when he was interviewed by the FBI, he told them Oswald and Ferrie knew each other, but he did not tell them about the photograph. The executor of Ferrie's estate, as well as Ferrie's godson, also picked out Ferrie.

After the Kennedy assassination, David Ferrie told investigators he never knew Lee Oswald. "I never heard David Ferrie mention Lee Harvey Oswald," said Layton Martens, a former C.A.P. Cadet and a close friend to Ferrie until Ferrie's death in 1967.

But when FRONTLINE showed Martens the photograph, he identified Ferrie. "It does indicate the possibity of an associaton," said Martens, "but if and to what extent is another question. Of course we've all been photographed with people, and we could be presented with photographs later and asked, 'Well, do you know this person? Obviously, you must because you've been photographed with them.' Well no, it's just a photograph, and I don't know that person. It's just someone who happened to be in the picture."

"As dramatic as the discovery of this photograph is after thirty years," says Michael Sullivan, FRONTLINE executive producer for special projects, "one should be cautious in ascribing its meaning. The photograph does give much support to the eyewitnesses who say they saw Ferrie and Oswald together in the C.A.P., and it makes Ferrie's denials that he ever knew Oswald less credible. But it does not prove that the two men were with each other in 1963, nor that they were involved in a conspiracy to kill the president."

IMFO, Ferrie knew Oswald and used him.

Whether or not Oswald went along in a plot to kill the President requires more evidence.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. k&r'd -- we're doomed to repeat the history we don't know.
Edited on Wed Nov-19-08 02:01 AM by snot
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
82. Oswald, the CIA and Mexico City -- What's Up with the Fake Oswald?
The CIA told the Warren Commission that they had photos of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Cuban embassy.

This is the fellow in their photos, a guy who apparently caused a commotion about his intentions to head to the Soviet Union:

He doesn't look like Lee Harvey Oswald.

For an explanation we turn to John Newman, a real Patriot.

Oswald, the CIA and Mexico City

By John Newman, Ph.D.
Copyright 1999 by John Newman.
All Rights Reserved.

I. The Rosetta Stone

The Assassination Records Review Board finished its search more than a year agoa search for records relating to the murder of a president thirty-six years ago. Surprisingly, the passage of time has not managed to erode or cover over all of the important evidence. On the contrary, the work of the Review Board has uncovered important new leads in the case. I will leave medical and ballistic forensics to others. I will confine myself to document forensics, an area for which the work of the board had been nothing less than spectacular. More specifically, I will confine myself to the documentary record concerning Lee Harvey Oswalds 1963 visit to Mexico City.

In 1978, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) completed its work, including a report on Oswalds activities in Mexico written by Eddie Lopez and Dan Hardway. Our first glimpses of their report began shortly after the 1993 passage of the JFK Records Act. Not even all the redactions of those early versions could hide the seminal discoveries in that work. While Lopez couched his words in careful language, he suggested that Oswald might have been impersonated while he was in Mexico City just weeks before the assassination. Lopez was more forthright when I interviewed him about this in 1995. Armed with more CIA documents and the first Russian commentary (Nechiporenkos book, Passport to Assassination), I went further in my own Oswald and the CIA (Carroll & Graf: 1995) in advancing the argument that Oswald was impersonated in the Mexican capitol. Specifically, someone pretending to be Oswald made a series of telephone calls between 28 September and 1 October, allegedly to and from the Cuban and Soviet consulates in Mexico City.

I concluded then, that, based on the content of the CIA Mexico City telephone transcripts alone, the speaker purporting to be Oswald was probably an impostor. I will not repeat my lengthy discussion here, other than to summarize it in this way: the speakers words were incongruous with the experiences we can be reasonably certain Oswald underwent. For reasons still obscure, the CIA has lied consistently for these past several decades about the tapes from which those transcripts were made. The Agency concocted the story that the tapes were routinely destroyed before the assassination. It is perhaps true that some tapes were destroyed before the assassination. But Lopez uncovered FBI documents containing detailed accounts of how two of the tapes were listened to after the assassination by FBI agents familiar with Oswalds voice.

More evidence would come in time. Shortly after the passage of the JFK Records Act, the public gained access to a telephone transcript the day after the assassination in which FBI Director Hoover informs President Johnson that it is not Oswalds voice on the tapes. The Review Board diligently followed these leads and settled the matter when they found CIA documents in which the Agency itself explicitly states that some of the tapes were reviewed after the assassination. The CIAs continued silence on the matter of the tapes stands, like a giant beacon, pointing the way forward to the investigator. The impersonation of Oswald in Mexico by someone who drew attention to an Oswald connection to a KGB assassination officer may prove to be the Rosetta stone of this case.

Before going further, I once again pay tribute to Peter Dale Scott, who wrote of these matters as early as 1995, advancing his "Phase I-Phase II hypothesis" on largely deaf ears. I will not repeat his lengthy discussion here, other than to summarize it in this way: In Phase I, immediately after the assassination, previously planted evidence of a Cuban/Kremlin plot surfaced in Oswalds files; this, in turn, precipitated Phase II, in which a lone-nut cover-up was erected to prevent a nuclear war.

In Oswald and the CIA, I deliberately steered clear of the conspiracy-anti-conspiracy vortex in order to set out some of the facts concerning Oswalds pre-assassination files. Since then, the cumulative weight of the evidence uncovered by the Review Board has led me to the conclusion that the Oswald impersonation can best be explained in terms of a plot to murder the president. I remain open to other interpretations and fresh analyses by fellow researchers, and I understand that new evidence could corroborate or undermine this hypothesis. What follows is a first stab at explaining, in a short and simple way, how those plotting the presidents murder may have left their fingerprints in the files.


Thanks for giving a damn, my Friend. To misparaphrase Santayana, know what was on, so we don't get stuck watching reruns.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think he was a patsy too. Assisted. The cover up is the betrayal of democracy though.
From The Warren Commission all the way to PBS' bullshit documentary on the once great 'Frontline' was a betrayal. Frontline actually showed a skull full of chalk being shot from behind as an invalid attempt to prove that if Kennedy was shot from behind - his head and brains would blow back towards the shooter. Bullshit.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
96. The JFK Assassination - A False Mystery Concealing State Crimes
The author finds the question "Why did it happen?" to be more important than "What happened?" in regards to the assassination of President Kennedy.

The JFK Assassination:

A False Mystery Concealing State Crimes

by Vincent J. Salandria


Armed with this historical perspective, on November 22, 1963, I began to examine the post-assassination events as they unfolded. I took note of the reports coming in about the alleged assassin. I wondered whether his alleged left-wing credentials were bona fide. Very early in my work in the peace movement, I learned that some ostensible peace activists were infiltrating government agent provocateurs who were not what they at first blush appeared to be. May I suggest that some of our critics of the Warren Report are government agents. Can we honestly expect that the powerful elements in our society who dispatched our President with that deadly Dealey Plaza fusillade and then sought to cover up the reasons why he was killed would leave to ordinary citizens to inform the public about the real meaning of the assassination of President Kennedy?

On November 23, 1963 I discussed the assassination with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. I told him that we should keep our eyes focused on what if anything would happen to the suspected assassin that weekend. I said that if the suspect was killed during the weekend, then we would have to consider Oswalds role to be that of a possible intelligence agent nd patsy. I told him if such happened, the assassination would have to be considered as the work of the very center of U.S. power.

I sensed that there was a need to be quick in formulating conclusions from the killing of Oswald. A successful political assassination is carried out to produce policy changes. Those policy changes generally take effect quickly. Consequently, it behooves a democratic citizenry to come promptly to their own reasoned conclusions about the killing of their head of state. Citizens cannot leave to their government, which under republican principals is their mere servant, to shape their thinking on such a vital subject. Nor can the citizenry await the work of the academic establishment before formulating its conclusions.

When Oswald was served up on camera as disposable Dealey Plaza flotsam and jetsam and was killed by Jack Ruby I saw a subtle signal of a high level conspiracy. There is every reason to think that intelligence agencies, when they choose a killer to dispose of a patsy, make that choice by exercising the same degree of care that they employ in selecting the patsy. Their choice of Jack Ruby much later would --- by providing a fall-back position for the government --- serve the interests of the assassins. As the Warren Report would unravel, a deceased Rubys past connections to the Mafia produced a false candidate for governmental apologists to designate as the power behind the killing.

Immediately following the assassination I began to collect news items about Lee Harvey Oswald. A pattern began to emerge. Oswalds alleged defection to the Soviets, his alleged Castro leanings as the sole membe of a Fair Play for Cuba chapter in New Orleans, his posing with a rifle and a Trotskyist newspaper, his writings to the Communist Party USA, his study of the Russian language while in the Marine Corps, told me that he was not a genuine leftist, but rather was a U.S. intelligence agent.

It was apparent to me that no legitimate leftist straddles so many diverse political fences in a fractionalized American left. I saw Oswalds alleged leftist baggage as an effort on the part of the killers to send an intimidating message to the American left. The left was being signaled by the killers to be silent or to suffer a possible pogrom against it. The Cubanization of Oswald was a further signal to the left that the American military if provoked by criticism might seek to employ the Oswaldian Cuban tableau as an excuse to invade Cuba. For a summary of Oswald and his obvious connections to our intelligence community, see Professor Christopher Sharretts Oswald and U.S. Intelligence in the appendix to Dr. E. Martin Schotzs book, History Will Not Absolve Us.

Similarly, I saw Oswalds membership in the ACLU as a device to send a message to frighten liberals into silence. As it turned out, the ACLU did not see any civil liberties issues in substituting for a legal inquest on the killing of President Kennedy a series of non-public and secret sessions by the Warren Commission. The ACLU had taken the bait.

After I began to write on the assassination, the ACLU privately assumed a position against my work. The national office expressed displeasure with me for writing on the subject and in so doing identifying myself as what I was, a long-time volunteer lawyer for the ACLU. The executive director of the Philadelphia ACLU branch, with whom I had over many years a fine working relationship and friendship, conveyed to me the National Offices displeasure with my writings on the assassination. My offer to resign was accepted with alacrity.


Thank you, upi402. I very much appreciate you giving a damn about the rat race.

"In the abundance of water, the fool is thirsty."
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. I
am honored. Thanks. I really do care, I love this country very much. That's why I'm frustrated, but it could be worse.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. I believe Oswald was just what he said he was -
a patsy. I personally think it far more likely Badge Man fired the fatal shots from the grassy knoll. Of course, the bigger question is why. There were any number of people and/or groups who would have been solid suspects. I was fifteen years old when JFK was murdered. Forty-five years have now passed, and yet we are still being lied to about what really happened. The cover-up is as shameful as the assassination was tragic.

RIP, President Kennedy. :cry:

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
133. Poppy Bush brought up the assassination at President Ford's funeral and chuckled.
At the moment he mentioned "deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy"...

Here's videotape:

Poppy Bush brought up JFK Assassination and ''Conspiracy Theorists'' at Ford Funeral

From The New York Times transcript:

George H.W. Bushs Eulogy for Gerald R. Ford

The New York Times
Published: January 2, 2007

Following is the transcript of the eulogy for former President Gerald R. Ford delivered today by former President George H.W. Bush in Washington, as recorded by The New York Times.


After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy, our nation turned to Gerald Ford and a select handful of others to make sense of that madness. And the conspiracy theorists can say what they will, but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this tragic matter. Why? Because Jerry Ford put his name on it and Jerry Fords word was always good.

A decade later, when scandal forced a vice president from office, President Nixon turned to the minority leader in the House to stabilize his administration because of Jerry Fords sterling reputation for integrity within the Congress. To political ally and adversary alike, Jerry Fords word was always good.


It must've been uh subconscious smirk.

We are in a crazy time of gangsters, warmongers and traitors. Thank you for caring, anotheryellowdog.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #133
138. Perhaps Gerald Ford's final authorized biography sheds new light on the assassination...

The publisher of this, Ford's final book and who helped author the text, does believe there was a conspiracy and that Ford knew even more than he told his publisher and the world. Ford admits here for the first time that the CIA "did" destroy pertinent documents, covering up the investigation of the assassination. Ford shares many other breath-taking admissions with the reader in this, his final book, written three years prior to his own death.

I seem to remember a clip of the author on cable news stating that Ford told him, while on his deathbed, that LBJ was involved in the conspiracy. Personally, I think Ford might have said this to draw attention away from Nixon.

Another interesting excerpt from the book:

"I completely replaced cabinet and staff. You may recognize some of my appointees:
George H.W. Bush - Director, CIA
Richard Cheney - Chief of Staff
Donald Rumsfeld - Secretary of Defense
Alan Greenspan - Chairman, Council of Economic Advisors"

All great American antiheros.
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. Oswald was a patsy and some sort of low level CIA/Navy Intelligence asset
A former Marine does not defect to the USSR from Cold War America, marry the niece of a KGB colonel. return unencumbered to the US and have the kinds of ties Oswald had without being deeply enmeshed in something from a bad spy movie.

Basic Newtonian physics definitively show that JFK was shot from the right front. He was practically blown on to the limo's trunk lid and Jackie was picking up pieces of brain and skull from that lid. Exit wound from the back of the skull is obvious from that fact. Entry wounds tend to punch nice neat holes. Exit wounds, not so much. The doctors at Parkland uniformly reported the back of Kennedy's skull being blown out.

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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Also this supposed out-spoken Marine Communist
was able to get top-secret clearance to work at the Atsugi base in Japan. Doesn't happen in normal situations.

In the 1960's, with this sort of baggage, he would have been permanently blacklisted from ever having any sort of government job for the rest of his life, but he has no problem getting government jobs. In fact, the government jobs came looking for him in the most convenient fashion.

If it was an open and shut case, there would never have been classified files in this case for 50 years. If you have nothing to hide, if it was a lone nut with a few lucky shots, why is the government continuing to classify these records -- in the interest of "national security"? Doesn't make a lick of sense. Unless there is far more to the story than Warren would have us believe.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
61. "A former Marine does not defect to the USSR from Cold War America,
marry the niece of a KGB colonel. return unencumbered to the US and have the kinds of ties Oswald had without being deeply enmeshed in something from a bad spy movie."

And all by the age of 24, I might add.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
72. I can remember Oswald's mother claiming he was a spy for U.S.
I also recall her claims being mocked and used as "proof"that she was unhinged and so, must have raised a terrible son.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #72
115. I believed her but then when so many ignored it ..I wasn't sure .. I was naive --
Edited on Fri Nov-21-08 10:17 PM by defendandprotect
but quickly got over it --

Still wasn't sure, of course, about Oswald/CIA until Tunnheim Panel/

A&E History Channel doc ..

CIA memo ...

and lots of books --

But I think thery werte TOTALLY threatening entire family --

including putting Margueritte into nut house --

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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
91. Well said, Lydia
Oswald did in his few short years more weird, inexplicable and unfathomable things than most could accomplish in a lifetime. Nothing after his enlisting in the Marines was an "accident".
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
135. Lee Harvey Oswald at Age 62
Agree with you 100-percent, FKA MNChimpH8R.
Better yet, so does someone who's a real expert in the law...


By Donald E. Wilkes, Jr.
Professor of Law
University of Georgia School of Law
Published in Flagpole Magazine, p. 6 (November 21, 2001).


Some of the new information comes from official government investigations. In 1976 the U. S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence issued a report criticizing the performance of American intelligence agencies in their investigation of the JFK assassination. In 1979 the U. S. House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations issued staff reports, including "Conspiracy Witnesses in Dealey Plaza," "Oswald-Tippit Connections," and "Anti-Castro Activities and Organizations and Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans." It also issued a final report which concluded that JFK was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy and that the Warren Commission, the FBI, and the CIA had failed to adequately investigate the possibility of conspiracy.

Three early books provide an arsenal of facts on Oswald: Leo Sauvage, The Oswald Affair (1966); Harold Weisberg, Oswald in New Orleans (1967); and Jim Garrison, A Heritage of Stone (1970).

Other authoritative books on Oswald include: Edward Epstein, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald (1978); Jim Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins (1988); Philip Melanson, Spy Saga: Lee Harvey Oswald and U. S. Intelligence (1990); John Newman, Oswald and the CIA (1995); and Robert Groden, The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald (1995). Seth Kantor's book, Who Was Jack Ruby? (1978), furnishes the best account of Oswald's murder.

Based on the information now available, we now know that there never were good reasons for thinking Oswald mentally deranged. An updated, more realistic evaluation is given by Melanson: Oswald was "a poised, rather resourceful political manipulator who surely lived one of the most eventful, intrigue-filled lives imaginable--albeit a very short one."

We also now know that Oswald was no loner; he was often in the company of other persons, including numerous persons with intelligence connections. Indeed, it is almost certain that Oswald was an intelligence agent. As Melanson observes, to deny that Oswald was a spy "is to believe that his life was structured by endless coincidences" and that "his frequent and unusual interactions with government agencies lacked any overarching significance." Furthermore, to believe that Oswald was a spy for Russia or Cuba, rather than an American intelligence agent, requires us, as Melanson notes, to "posit that virtually all the agencies of U. S. intelligence and law enforcement were so completely ineffective when it came to Oswald that they must be imagined not just to be incompetent but comatose."

We also can now see that Oswald's supposed affiliations with the political left were part of what is known in the world of spies as a "legend"--a cover story used to conceal clandestine activities. Oswald's pro-Communist, pro-Castro activities in the months preceding the assassination were a hollow facade; they were the result of what in the lingo of spooks is called "sheepdipping"--manipulated behavior intended to create a desired image. The men Oswald actually associated with on a daily basis were far-rightists with intelligence and law enforcement backgrounds, including the mysterious George DeMohrenschildt (CIA), the violence-prone Guy Banister (FBI), and the sinister David Ferrie (CIA), described by someone who knew him as "a dangerous individual capable of almost anything."

(Banister died of a heart attack a year after the assassination; Ferrie, leaving two typed suicide notes, died of natural causes in 1967 when he was about to be arrested for conspiring to kill JFK; DeMohrenschildt killed himself with a shotgun in 1977, shortly before a scheduled interview with House Assassinations Committee investigators.)


If enough people see where the dots go, we may yet see those responsible, named and branded for history.
If so, we may even see those responsible who are still alive stand trial for their treason and murder.
The thought of this has kept me going for 45 years, today.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
16. Dr. Mellen left quite a bit out of that cherrypicking extravaganza
You will find the evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy alone, by his own volition, in Vincent Bugliosi's near encyclopedia, "Reclaiming History."
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Also, "the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository was the most likely origin of the shot"

A team of experts assembled by the Discovery Channel has recreated the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Using modern blood spatter analysis, new artificial human body surrogates, and 3-D computer simulations, the team determined that the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository was the most likely origin of the shot that killed the 35th president of the United States.

"The question we were trying to answer is, given the spatter evidence in a vehicle, and knowing an individual was sitting at a particular location, is there something we could use to determine where the shot originated?" said Steve Schliebe, a blood spatter and trace evidence specialist with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, who was part of the special investigation.

While blood spatter analysis existed in the 1960s, modern innovations have greatly improved its accuracy and the amount of information that can be gleaned from drops of blood.

"A lot of this is still fairly new, from the last 10 to 15 years," said Bevel. "Before that we thought we knew what was going on, but because of innovations like high-speed photography we have a much better appreciation of what is actually taking place."

Please listen to reason and actual evidence about this. Lee Harvey Oswald planned this alone and carried it out alone.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. You are wasting your time.
Conspiracy theories are so much more fun for folks to think about.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. The only thing I hope to accomplish is showing the casual reader that we all don't fall for this
That, yes, indeed, it is possible to hate Bush and support Obama without having to punch your ticket in at the JFK CT window.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Good idea.
You can't convince the hard core conspiracy fan regardless of what their pet conspiracy is (JFK, 9/11, Fake Moon Landings, Alien coverups, etc.)
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Why did you leave chemtrails out?
Do you know something we don't?

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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Well, that's because Chem-trails are real
I know because an "expert" said so on the internet, there is even a movie on youtube about it from some guy with a real college degree. :)

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. But...but...
The idea that an insignificant drifter can be responsible for such a tragic, destabilizing event is extremely unsettling.

It must be a conspiracy.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. There is that.
But people also invest a lot of energy into building these elaborate stories. Recognizing that Oswald acted alone means the waste of all that brainpower and time, and people always resist that kind of change.
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. If you only believe political conspiracies happen OUTSIDE the U.S. but NEVER to the U.S., then
you don't know much about Watergate, Iran-Contra, the U.S.S. Liberty, Operation Ajax, Operation Mockingbird, Enron, Tyco, painting planes with U.N. colors to fly over Iraqi airspace, Operation Phoenix, Operation Condor, BCCI, or the National Security Establishment/Industry.

If you don't believe in conspiracies, then you don't believe in history.

Meanwhile, if you only believe in coincidence theory, then you believe America is Disneyland.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Are you trying to make sense and not succeeding? n/t
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
85. Then enlighten us retards by explaining again your Magic Bullet Theory n/t
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. There was no magic bullet theory. Connelly was seated lower and to the left of JFK.
When you see the jury rigged seats he and his wife were sitting in, the zig and zag bullet doesn't zig nor zag.

It all lines up with the 6th floor . . .
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Liberal OIF Vet Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. And...
The Warren Commission could not figure this out? Do you honest think they would come up with that BS theory if they could easily account for the wounds? The Warren commission couldn't, but Posner, Bugliosi, McAdams and the Discovery channel can?

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #87
117. JFK's wound in rear was on RIGHT side of his SHOULDER at 45 degree DOWNWARD angle ---
Edited on Fri Nov-21-08 10:24 PM by defendandprotect
The entry wound in JFK's throat was just that --

See the autopsy report --

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
54. I'm convinced that if there is a JFK conspiracy...
It's a really boring one that doesn't involve the CIA, the mafia, or anything else that the conspiracy theorists have thought up. Maybe it was some guys who went to elementary school with JFK and he took their lunch money.
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Yep and the Magic Bullet was real.
There was a conspiracy... unfortunately people of your belief are given way too much creedence in this conversation.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. You see, that's what the people at the Discovery Channel just proved, yet again.
The shot that hit both Kennedy and Connolly came from the TSBD.
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. No bullet can do what that bullet was said to have done
I don't care where the shot was fired. The Magic Bullet in itself proves there were multiple shooters and hence a conspiracy.

Just because the term conspiracy (which is factually accurate) is used doesn't make it untrue. People that toss verbal barrages at anyone who dare speak of the possibility of a conspiracy is an ignorant narrow minded fool.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Actually it could have.

This is shown to be so over and over and over and over.

Oswald acted alone, so this is no conspiracy.
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123infinity Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
55. No evidence will ever convince the tinfoilers they might be wrong. They would have to admit
they don't have the super secret inside nobody else will ever know information that makes them way better than the sheeple.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
68. Sure he did...and Sadam really did have WMD...
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
92. The problem with this theory
is simple. How did a bullet that hit JFK between his shoulder blades manage to jump several centimeters upwards and exit from his neck? Kennedy was shot twice from behind, with one bullet going on to hit Connally (though surely not the magic bullet) and killed by a shot from his right front fired by a shooter on the grassy knoll.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
71. The Discovery Channel "proved" it using information from the Warren Commission report
regarding trajectories, wind speeds, etc. - they even used the official autopsy to determine what the wounds were. As always, conflicting testimony was ignored including that of the doctors who worked on JFK in Dallas.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
118. It's a bought-out History Channel -- totally dismantled and disabled ...
Now owned by Clear Channel --

The new History Channel "proved it" if you're non-thinking, non-informed --

or just plain dishonest --

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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. A team of Experts from Discovery Channel? Why didn't you say so? Case Closed!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
119. Clear Channel now owns it -- it's been dismantled ...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
116. Obviously you've never been there -- he would have had to hang out window by his legs--!!!
Comedians do great routines on this stupidity ---
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. ...which, of course, you have read cover to cover ....
...and verified every fact and considered every disputation threrein.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. As have you.
Seriously, have you even cracked the cover yet? Have you checked out his massive list of evidence tying Oswald and Oswald alone to the shooting?
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
86. Agreed. Oswald claims he did not have a rifle, but he was effing PHOTOGRAPHED
holding the rifle.

The name Alex Hidell was an alias he had used on any number of occasions, and it was the name on a receipt for the revolver and rifle he had bought mail order.

There is a lot of evidence linking Oswald to JFK's killing.

Just about all the provable facts in his last words given above were proven to be false.

This is not naivete on my part. This is looking at the most credible evidence and trying to draw a conclusion that makes the most sense.

I don't have any difficulty believing that the CIA knocked off Kennedy.

I just don't see a lot of hard evidence for it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #86
120. LOOK at the photo -- his head, someone else's body ---
Good Lord - you have a lot of info you've missed or you're denying --

The name Alex Hidell was an alias he had used on any number of occasions, and it was the name on a receipt for the revolver and rifle he had bought mail order.

Eh ... and, of course, none of that could have been falsified ...!!

You're not naive--????
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
100. True - but OP's like this follow in the Nazi tradition of "stabbed-in-the-back" conspiracy theory.
Edited on Fri Nov-21-08 12:26 AM by apocalypsehow
Hitler used the (false) propaganda meme that Germany hadn't actually been defeated on the battlefield in 1918, but "stabbed in the back" by the machinations of various conspiracies that all came together to lay the Fatherland low.

According to the theory, Germany was on the verge of consolidating all of Central and Western Europe into one grand, golden, glorious age of peace & industry, when nefarious forces (the Jews, especially) intervened to first plunge Germany into war abroad and then to finish her off from the inside by repeated "betrayals" - and it all started, eerily enough, with another assassination in another convertible car on it's way through the metropolitan streets of Sarajevo.

OP's like this peddle a similar (false) meme: Had JFK lived lived America would have become a perfect racial/economic/social paradise; the U.S. military would have been dismantled and war abolished; the World would now be a pristine (secular) Garden of Eden where was never heard a discouraging word all the day long, and every night the people everywhere would lull themselves to sleep humming "We are the World...we are the Children."

Instead, America was "stabbed in the back" when a vast, opaque machinery brought together the perfect elements of the perfect crime with impeccable timing at exactly the right moment and against precisely the most saintly political hero who ever lived that dark day in Dallas - and America has been a basket case of right-wing shit ever since.

It is laughable, but one disturbing particular about the Nazi CT's and the JFK conspiracy theorists should rankle us all: talk to a JFK conspiracy theorist long enough, and eventually the same anti-semitic tropes the Nazis peddled will start to emerge.

Most of the JFK conspiracy fluff is harmless, but the JFK CT underbelly can be every bit as ugly as their deluded CT predecessors in the Third Reich.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #100
106. The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination
In a sad way, it's interesting that you brought up the NAZI angle:

The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination

Evidence of link between Nazis still in operation after World War II to the still unsolved murder of John F. Kennedy

by Mae Brussell
(from the short-lived Larry Flynt publication The Rebel, January 1984)


Wild Bill Donovan of the OSS, Allen Dulles and the Vatican

Allen Dulles dubbed it Operation Sunrise. He mounted it from his walk-up office in Bern, Switzerland, where, since 1942, he had maintained contact with key nazis. Operation Sunrise was conceived when these nazis decided, in the face of defeat, that they preferred to surrender to the Americans and British. The agreement, which double-crossed the Russians, was signed April 29, 1945.

The principle negotiator on the German side was SS Commander Karl Wolff, head of the Gestapo in Italy. Wolff acted with full authority, for he was formerly chief of Heinrich Himmler's personal staff. Wolffs relationship with Dulles spared him from the dock at Nuremberg, but when it was later discovered that he had dispatched "at least" 300,000 Jews to the Treblinka death camp he was handed a token sentence. In 1983 Wolff made the social pages when he and some of his old SS buddies sojourned on the late Hermann Goering's yacht Carin II of Hamburg. The skipper was Gert Heidemann, an avowed Hamburg nazi. The yacht belonged to the widow, Emmy Goering, whose estate attorney was the celebrated Melvin Belli. Belli has always had an eclectic clientele. He represented Jack Ruby after he shot Oswald. And he represented actor Errol Flynn's family interests. Flynn (once a close friend of Ronald Reagan) has been identified as having collaborated with the Gestapo.

John J. McCloy had a lengthy career riddled with Nazi sympathies

When Wolff hammered out the secret surrender terms with Dulles, he had in the back of his mind a safe diaspora for his nazi compatriots. This is where the OSS, William Donovan and the sovereign state of the Vatican came in. "Wild Bill" Donovan was top dog in the OSS. Shortly before the Germans overran Europe, Father Felix Morlion, a papal functionary, had set up a Vatican intelligence organization called Pro Deo in Lisbon. When the U.S. entered the war Donovan moved Morlion lock, stock and barrel to New York and opened a sizeable bank account for him to draw on. The priest founded the American Council for International Promotion of Democracy Under God, on 60th Street. In the same building is the office of William Taub, whose name popped up during the Watergate affair. Taub is well-known as a wide-ranging middleman for such powerful figures as Nixon, Howard Hughes, Aristotle Onassis and Jimmy Hoffa, and his behind-the-scenes maneuvers were invaluable to Nixon in his 1960 run at the presidency. Taub was especially close to Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviania of the Holy See, who arranged Mussolini's 1929 "donation" of $89 million to the Vatican to ensure its neutrality with Mussolini and Hitler. The money went into a special fund in the Vatican Bank, and after the war part of it was entrusted to "God's Banker" Michele Sindona for investment. Sindona channeled a good chunk of it to the Nixon campaign.

When Rome was liberated in 1944 Morlion and Pro Deo relocated there. In recognition of Donovan's good works on behalf of Pro Deo, Pope Plus XII knighted him with the Grand Cross of the Order of St. Sylvester. And before he flew off to Washington to cut his deal with the CIA, Reinhard Gehlen received the Sovereign Military Order of Malta award from the Pontiff. So did James Jesus Angleton, a Donovan operative in Rome who became the CIA's chief of counterintelligence.

For Dulles, Operation Sunset was a personal triumph, one that set in motion his rise to the top of the intelligence heap. In 1963, by virtue of that position, he became the CIA's representative on the Warren Commission.


For your information: I did not post the OP to "peddle" any "anti-semitic" crap. You brought that up.

As for what I think, it looks like the NAZI-CIA connection was behind the assassination of President Kennedy, for reasons which are all too apparent today.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #106
121. This is the man who encouraged HST to drop bomb on Japan --?
Edited on Fri Nov-21-08 10:35 PM by defendandprotect
Racist -- you bet!!!
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #100
141. So, you're saying . . .
That people who think a conspiracy to assassinate JFK are anti-semites? If you're going to accuse something like this, be direct about it.

"It is laughable, but one disturbing particular about the Nazi CT's and the JFK conspiracy theorists should rankle us all: talk to a JFK conspiracy theorist long enough, and eventually the same anti-semitic tropes the Nazis peddled will start to emerge."

Either way, your assertions are laughable on their face. Nobody is peddling any false memes about what could've been, that would be pointless.
But the fact remain. A crime and cover up of epic proportions was committed and we want the truth, not some manufactured fantasy that was created solely for public consumption by the very power structures that allowed the crime to happen, if not actively participated in it.

By your verbiage, I can tell you are irretrievably wedded to the Warren Report "official story". If you're already convinced, then why are you in this thread? You have no solid assertions about the evidence, just a cheap ad hominem calling those who want the truth anti-semites.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
134. Besmirching History: Vincent Bugliosi Assassinates Kennedy Again

"Cherrypicking extravaganza." Project much?

Besmirching History:
Vincent Bugliosi Assassinates Kennedy Again
The Military and Warren Commission Cover-up

by Michael Green, 19 Sep 2007


How did the Warren Commission conduct its unflinching search for truth? Dr. Dolce stated that it was in the Army rules that in the case of an injury, a serious injury to any VIP in Congress in the administration, that I was to be called in to go over the case. I was not called. The Army and Navy took over.

Because it was impossible to avoid consulting him on the matter of CE 399 after the autopsy report had been completed, Joseph Dolce, M.D., was part of a staff conference April 21, 1964 chaired by WC counsel Melvin Eisenberg and attended by Dr. Alfred Olivier, chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch of the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland; Dr. F. L. Light of the Wound Assessment Branch at Edgewood Arsenal; Drs. Charles Gregory and Robert Shaw from Parkland Hospital; and later in the conference, Governor John Connally and his wife, J. Lee Rankin, and Warren Commission member John J. McCloy. Dr. Dolce told the Commission personnel emphatically that it was impossible for CE 399 to have made those wounds. The Commission lawyers and staff tried to muscle him into changing his professional opinion, but he refused, so he was never called as a witness and the test findings were distorted and suppressed.

Dolce advised Chip Selby in 1986, The disturbing feature at this conference was that the lawyer says, Now Doctor, we want you to tell us exactly how this bullet traveled, the velocity traveled, the velocity lost during the period of travel. And why it came out as a pristine bullet, unmarked bullet. I said, Sorry, it doesnt happen that way. This bullet should have been deformed. they wanted this <399> to be the bullet that caused all of the damage and I did not go along with that. < 4 >

Bugliosi handles this problem by lying:
    Drs. Light and Dolce expressed themselves as being very strongly of the opinion that Connolly had been hit by two different bullets, principally on the belief that the bullet recovered from Connollys stretcher could not have broken the radius without having suffered more distortion. But again, this was before the tests at Edgewood Arsenal proved that it could. (Endnotes p.305) (5)

In fact, after Dr. Dolce told the Commission principals that This is impossible. It doesnt work that way, his group was told to conduct tests at the Edgewood Arsenal using Oswalds alleged rifle. Dr. Dolce told Selby that our experiments have shown beyond any doubt, that merely shooting the wrist deformed the bullet drastically (even without it also smashing a rib). in every instance (of 10 bullets) the front, or the tip of the bullet was smashed. This was not so with . They did not accept this. (NA! pp.298-299)

If it werent a cover-up from the getgo, the Commission would have been off and running, the first time Dr. Dolce gave his opinion, trying to find all those grassy knoll witnesses the FBI had scared off, dismissed, intimidated or misquoted in their part of the cover-up. But suppressing all those facts and the bullets they imply is part of why CE 399 had to be planted. Bugliosi is fully aware of such facts since his endnotes mention Chip Selby by name from the relevant section of Harold Weisbergs, Never Again! That Bugliosi can say with a straight face that the Warren Commissions one objective was to discover the truth reveals his book as pure propaganda, not scholarship of any sort.


Bugliosi got a million-dollar advance to create an exegesis of the Warren Commission Report.
Prof. Mellen devoted 30 years of her life to finding out why President Kennedy was assassinated.
Big difference. Cherries or no cherries.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
17. K and R
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. kr
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
24. Admiral Turner tried to clean out the CIA of the cowboys.
Unfortunately, the cancer was too institutionalized and Carter paid the price. As long as secret societies and right-wing reactionary elements with ties to foreign powers run loose inside the US Government, we will continue to suffer the consequences.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
26. Atsugi Assassins

'Oswald didnt do it: Area author says his book exonerates Kennedy assassin
ONALASKA, Wis. Harlan Hawk Jensen believes he has written a book that finally exonerates Lee Harvey Oswald.

The 70-year-old Onalaska investment and insurance broker who served with Oswald in the Marines said his self-published book, Atsugi Assassins, shows Oswald was the subject of CIA mind control, wasnt President John Kennedys assassin and never fired a shot on Nov. 22, 1963.
Jensen said he doesnt know for sure who shot Kennedy, but he believes the assassination was a conspiracy by some factions inside the CIA.

Jensen said he, too, was a subject of mind control serving in Atsugi, Japan, which was the headquarters for the CIAs top-secret MKULTRA mind-control program and the U-2 spy plane project.

Oswald was used as a mind-controlled guinea pig, Jensen said. When he said he was a patsy, he wrote his death warrant because I believe at that moment he realized and they realized he remembered things he shouldnt have remembered....

YouTube - Oswald at Atsugi

While I'm dubious of the MKULTRA angle in Oswald's case...
it might be worth checking out.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. This also pops up in Peter Levenda's
series 'Sinister Forces'.

I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but he amasses an amazing pile of research on little-known American history.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
111. No -- Oswald was trained by and worked for CIA and FBI --
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
27. He was a mystery, shrouded in an enigma,
Wrapped up in a fresh warm flour tortilla.
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bikebloke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
29. I first heard of Oswald when I came home from school.
After the assassination. Everyone around the apartment project was saying "Oswald killed Kennedy". The only Oswald I knew at the time was Oswald the Rabbit on the Ranger Hal Show.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
131. What is truly amazing when you look back on those precomputer,
preinternet days was how quickly the media was able to find out and report on every minute detail of Oswald's life. I think by Saturday morning they had all they needed to know about him to convince to the public he was the only one involved.

I was ten when this happened and I very clearly remember when Oswald was shot I heard my dad say to my mother "Someone doesn't want him to talk." I got my tinfoil hat yearly.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thank you.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #37
99. New Alaska Sen. Mark Begich's Father was U.S. Rep. Nick Begich -- died with Rep. Hale Boggs
Boggs served on the Warren Commission.
You also know, Boggs voiced doubts over its lone-gunman findings.

The Mysterious Deletions of the Warren Commissions 'TOP SECRET' Transcript of January 22, 1964

From mniowan at Daily Kos:

Mark Begich's Father Congressman Nick Begich

by mniowan
Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 12:18:09 PM PST
Maybe everyone knows this, but I just learned that Senator-elect Mark Begich's father was Nick Begich, the Alaskan Congressman whose airplane disappeared over the Gulf of Alaska on October 16, 1972.

mniowan's diary :: ::
Louisiana pol Hale Boggs was also on the plane. No remains were ever found and eventually all the passengers were declared dead.

Nick won his seat against Frank Murkoski, later Senator from and Governor of Alaska. Nick was running for re-election against Don Young and won posthumously (although he had been missing for several weeks on election day, he had not been declared dead yet). Don Young won the subsequent special election.

A sad and ironic sidenote is that Nick Begich was born and raised in Eveleth, Minnesota, which is where Paul Wellstone was flying to when his plane crashed on October 25, 2002 while he was running for re-election to the U.S. Senate. As we know, Wellstone was replaced on the ballot after Wellstone's death and Norm Coleman won that seat.


Thank you, H20 Man. You've helped lighten the load on this and myriad other journeys.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #99
122. Very interesting re Boggs & Bigich father dying in same plane crash ....
Sad -- Boggs tried very hard to get info out ---

very powerful coup on our government
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
40. My husband bought me Mellen's book for Christmas after a previous recommendation from you.
I always appreciate your informative posts. I highly recommend newbies read them as well as their posts (which are always chocked full of not to miss info!)
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
45. Read Norman Mailer's "Oswald's Tale."
It is fascinating.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
123. Mailer is an idiot --
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
46. This is hard to believe when read literally
"Oswald associated only with people with intelligence connections"
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
124. You have some reading to catch up with ...
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. Another excellent read that implicates the CIA, mob and Texas oilmen: Mafia Kingfish,
Carlos Marcello and the Assassinatin of John F Kennedy by John Davis.

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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
56. K&R
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Flute Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
57. He was a counterintelligence CIA agent
Who was framed for the assassination of Kennedy, as indicated by the fact that an impostor faked his voice in Mexico pretending to have ties to Cuba and the KGB.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #57
102. CI/SIG held a 201 file on Lee Oswald prior to the assassination
Here's some information about his counterintelligence activities:

Probe V7N5: James Jesus Angleton and the Kennedy Assassination: Part 1
Before examining Angletons relationship with Oswald, it would be useful to understand Angletons relationship with the CIA. Angleton ran the Counterintelligence unit. The primary role of Counterintelligence is to protect agents from a foreign intelligence organization from uncovering CIA assets and operations. Another important role is the ability to disseminate disinformation to foreign intelligence services in an effort to create for them a false picture of reality, causing them to act in ways that may be ultimately against their own interests. In other words, Counterintelligence was a unit that conducted operations, not just research. For that reason, the CI staff resided inside the Directorate of Plans (DDP) and not on the analytical side of the agency...

From the agencys inception until 1954, Staff C was run by William Harvey, a former FBI man who was to one day be introduced to President Kennedy as "Americas James Bond." During this same period, Staff A was run by Angleton.

After the publication of the Doolittle Report in 195424, Staff C, which then became simply Counterintelligence, was handed to Angleton. Harvey was given the coveted Berlin station, a vortex point for operations against the USSR.

CI/SIG and Oswald

Angletons complete counterintelligence empire employed over 200 people. Inside this large group was a small handful of Angletons most trusted and closed-mouthed associates, called the Special Investigations Group (SIG). According to Ann Egerter, in 1959, when Oswald defected to the Soviet Union, only "about four or five" people were part of SIG, which was headed by Birch D. ONeal. SIG members included Ann Egerter, Newton "Scotty" Miler, and very few others. Miler was, as of 1955, "either the Deputy or one of the principle officers with ONeal," according to Angleton.25 ONeal, Egerter and Miler all play interesting roles in this case.

SIG is all-important in the case of the Kennedy assassination because, for whatever reason, SIG held a 201 file on Lee Oswald prior to the assassination. Both the Church Committee and HSCA investigators fixated quickly on this point, because it made no sense under the CIAs scenario of their relationship (or, as they professed, non-relationship) with Oswald. What did SIG really do, and why would Oswalds file have been there? Why wasnt it opened when this ex-Marine (who had knowledge of the CIAs top secret U-2 program) defected in 1959, telling embassy personnel he might have something of special interest to share with the Soviets? Why didnt that set off alarm bells all over the place? Why was a 201 file on Oswald not opened for another year after that event? And why, when he returned to the States, did the CIA not debrief him? Or did they? These questions and more were adequately raised, to the HSCAs credit, but not adequately answered by CIA...

Probe V7N6: James Jesus Angleton and the Kennedy Assassination: Part 2
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meuniermr Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
58. Just a lead singer for a band...

/Business class please.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #58
103. My brother-in-law sent that pic awhile back with the tag "Thank you Dallas, and good night."
Kinda tasteless, like so much else I get from him.

Still, I gotta ask: Tad, is that you?

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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
59. This was fascinating!
Another probable victim of the cover-up was Dorothy Kilgallen.

I happened upon this article, being a fan of the late-night game show, "What's My Line?" After seeing the episode during which John Daly, the host, somberly addresses the tv audience about Dorothy's sudden death, I couldn't wait to get online to find out what happened to her, as nothing was said about what happened.

This is a jewel of an article:

A Key Chapter from "Justice For JFK"
by Robert D. Morningstar

On November 8, 1965, Dorothy Kilgallen, was found dead in her apartment shortly after returning from Dallas where she had interviewed Jack Ruby and had conducted her own investigation of the JFK murder during several trips to cover the Ruby trial.

She had revealed secret transcripts of Ruby's testimony in her column. Kilgallen had met with Ruby. She had learned of a meeting three weeks before the assassination at Ruby's "Carousel", the Dallas underworld's merry-go-round where the "Big D" mobsters wheeled around.


Lee Israel, author of "Kilgallen", reports that that Ruby, himself a TV fan of Dorothy Kilgallen, had taken a liking to her during the trial. According to Israel, he respected her more than any other reporter. She had gained his confidence and had several conversations with him in the courtroom. She was given a five minute session alone with Ruby. Some writers have stretched this to a half-hour, others deny it.

Regardless, it is a fact that when Dorothy returned to New York, she told friends that she had discovered that Ruby and the slain Officer J.D. Tippit had been friends. They had been seen together in Ruby's Carousel Club at a meeting 2 weeks before the assassination in the company of Bernard Weissman, who had placed the "JFK-Wanted for Treason" newspaper ad in Dallas newspapers on November 22nd, 1963. Studying the Warren Commission Report, Killgallen deduced that the meeting had also been reported to Chief Justice Warren AND that the identity of "the fourth man",which she had been unable to ascertain, had been reported to Warren as "a rich Texas oil man", as Earl Warren described him in the official transcript.

She told Israel that she had discovered something that was going to break the whole JFK assassination mystery wide open. She told the same story to her next door neighbor, her hairdresser, her agent, her publisher, and the producer and host of "Nightlife".


On Sunday November 8, Dorothy Kilgallen was found dead, sitting fully dressed, upright in bed, early in the morning. The New York City Police investigated and the coroner found that Dorothy Kilgallen had died from ingestion of a lethal combination of alchohol and barbituates. All her notes and the article on which she had been working to "blow the JFK assassination wide open" also disappeared.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #59
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
60. K&R!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
63. Hmmm, this looks interesting...

The Waldron-Hartmann book also adds an explanation to the persistent and logical question raised by critics of the House Assassinations Committee conclusion that the mob was behind the killing of Kennedy. Why wouldn't the powerful attorney general, and the grieving government authorities at the time, have aggressively pursued all leads based on the government's prior dealing with the Mafia? ... knowledge of it would have had serious foreign policy implications. Those few officials who knew of the critical facts had every reason to hide them. It was a classic Greek tragedy.

If the dots are connected all the way to Nixon, it sheds new light as to why it was so important to plug those (CIA) leaks in Watergate.

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proReality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
65. Too late to recommend, but I can kick it. n/t
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
66. The conspiracy extension "magic bullet" types are so dim that they
Edited on Thu Nov-20-08 11:35 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
can't grasp that if the CIA hadn't arranged the assassination, it's leaders would have had even uglier *********** than themselves to answer to in the Republican Party, Big Oil and the Mafia. Doing their bidding would have been perceived by their political and oleaginous masters, if not by the Mafia, itself, as what the CIAs's role was supposed to be. To do their bidding. Period.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
67. It's our birth certificate moment.
Inbred theories using their own conclusions as evidence.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
70. And 45 years later....

Was Roland Carnaby a CIA agent? Reality is no one will ever know. Which of course is the way the CIA operates. There are some chiling similarities between Roland Carnaby and Lee Harvey Oswald. Particularly with regard to the maxim that "dead men tell no tales."

He was killed, some say murdered, just around the corner from the home of George HW Bush. Some wonder if that is where he was headed. Which has made some wonder what tales this dead man would have told.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #70
125. Clay Shaw the CIA also had to admit was CIA ....
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MrsBrady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
74. from Dallas Morning News - 11-16-08 Oswald co-worker no longer silent about JFK assassination role
story and video at the link above.
I don't know what happened. I'm not making a point either way.
But this is an interesting story about how this man, very young at the time, was almost implicated.
also, fyi, the author's tag line says this:
"Hugh Aynesworth is a freelance writer and author and was an eyewitness to the JFK assassination."


Sunday, November 16, 2008

By HUGH AYNESWORTH / Special Contributor to The Dallas Morning News
LEWISVILLE Buell Frazier wants to tell it like it is or was on a very important day in U.S. history 45 years ago in Dallas.

The quiet, thoughtful man of 64 is not as well-known as some of the others who skyrocketed to fame or infamy in November 1963. But Mr. Frazier played a defining, if unintentional, role in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

He drove Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful Nov. 22.
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Liberal OIF Vet Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. This man saw....
The package Oswald was carrying. 40 years later he swears it was too small to be a rifle. Yet you folks calling us conspiracy people "kooks" want to dismiss his recollections. Why? What reason would he have to lie? He saw the damn package.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
88. Oswald couldn't have separated the barrel from the stock?
Also, according to the patsy Oswald, he didn't even have a package that day bigger than his sack lunch.

And it's apparently perfectly normal for an innocent guy to run around with a .38 pistol in his drawers and "go to a movie" without paying . . .
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Liberal OIF Vet Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Makes pefect sense....
If you are part of the conspiracy but being made to take the fall.....just like he told the world...a patsy....
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. Doesn't everybody carry a gun in Texas?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #88
127. Boy ...
Edited on Fri Nov-21-08 10:46 PM by defendandprotect
STILL ... it would have been too big -- try to read something --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #74
126. That should be a thread ...high levels of intimidation have to be understood ,,,
Edited on Fri Nov-21-08 10:46 PM by defendandprotect
Please make a thread on it --- now's the time--!!!

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
78. Thank you for the Big Picture, Octafish.
I recently bought Deep Politics and the Death of JFK by Peter Dale Scott. Have you read that book? After reading his excellent research in The Iran-Contra Connection: Secret Teams and Covert Operations in the Reagan Era, I think I'm in for a good read.
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Mark D. Donating Member (420 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
80. Truth Seekers
Edited on Thu Nov-20-08 04:22 PM by Mark D.
Are not always tinfoil-hat. We just saw too many suspicious things. There are thousands of YouTube videos showing Kennedy leaning forward after Oswald's bullet grazed his neck from behind, and then SLAMMING back in his seat as his forehead opens up, thrown back by the force of a bullet in the forehead. ABC cut off the part where the 'official time of death was given' after the time is given, the go black. Seek out the longer version they didn't show you. When he says he's killed by a bullet wound to the head and points at his FOREHEAD to illustrate where it hit. You can't shoot someone in the forehead from behind.

Notice how the Jesuit trained head of the Secret Service detail, in other videos you can easily find (look up 'secret service JFK' on YouTube), is seen calling down the key protector of JFK. He's supposed to ride near JFK, to be able to dive on top of him if he hears gunfire. And he would have seen the bullet graze his neck and dove on him knowing he was in danger. The Grassy Knoll bullet would have went over their heads or hit him in the back and not JFK's head.

JFK was left unprotected intentionally. Watch the video, the person raises his arms in disgust as if saying: WHY? Why are you calling me off the vehicle? I'm supposed to protect the president! Watch it and see. Ignore all of that, ignore that EVERY PREVIOUS PRESIDENT to challenge the money-changer central-bank system was also assassinated (Garfield, Lincoln, almost Andrew Jackson, the shooter's guns jammed). Lincoln's assassin spoke widely before the killing how European elite sent him to do it. In jail the would-be assassin for Andrew Jackson said the European Bankers put him up to it.

Look at JP Morgan, most powerful banker in US history. Helped steer the country into the 1907 scare that gave rise to the 'need' for a Federal Reserve to stop it from happening again, when it only empowered the bankers to be able to pull off a Great Depression. The current slump is largely caused by high energy prices from speculation, the biggest speculator? MORGAN. The Hedge Funds are the largest catalyst in the sub-prime debacle that's the other great reason for this great decline, and what's the biggest hedge fun, by far? MORGAN. Who was the other biggest beneficiary of the bailout besides Henry Paulson's old company Goldman Sachs?

JP MORGAN Chase. Now, thanks to the mergers they were allowed to have, even REWARDED for with bailout money, they are again the largest financial institution in America, 2nd or 3rd largest bank as JPMC, but combined with Morgan Stanley, the largest name in the financial world is again Morgan. Agent of the Rothschild banking family. Elite British and German banking families. Nothing I've said is conspiracy, it's historical fact. But whenever someone challenges the official story with such fact, they have their agents in the sheeple that would rather have the Bush Nazi ilk say 'everything is UNDER CONTROL'.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #80
98. true, exit wounds are larger. how dumb can we be?
well, we're easy to fool with the TV news... Bush grabbed power twice afterall. so pretty damn dumb i guess.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #80
105. The Big Bankers, huh? Behind every BIG BADDIE deal in history, weren't they? I hear me some
Protocols talk coming on - whoops, here it already is:

"Agent of the Rothschild banking family"

Depressingly familiar bullshit:

Own it.

As an aside: I noted somewhere else in this thread that if you scratch the underbelly of a JFK conspiracy cultist long enough, he/she will eventually start belching about the international Jewish conspiracy, and their evuuuul banker pawns (Masons all, of course). I rest my case with the post above.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #105
130.'s not like we had genocide of natives, nor enslavement of ...
Africans on this continent or anything --!!

Nor centuries of atttacking other countries and taking them over ..

US governments have done no wrong ever --

And this is Conspiracy-Free America ...

for those born yesterday --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #80
128. Keep posting ...
a lot of "know-nothings" here on this issue --

or don't want to know --

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #80
136. I don't know if the second shot came from the Grassy Knoll...

didn't one of the CIA/mafia assassins confess that they shot JFK from one of the storm drains in the street?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. Here's info on John Roselli...
I copied this from a UK wiki, but shouldn't link to it because it wants to download a trojan virus:

In the wake of Fidel Castro's takeover of Cuba in January 1959, Rosselli and other powerful mobsters like Sam Giancana and Carlos Marcello had worked closely with senior CIA officer William Harvey and others in the notorious CIA plot called Operation Mongoose, targeting Castro for assassination, which despite millions of dollars and several years spent, had ultimately failed.

In 1963, singer Frank Sinatra had sponsored Roselli for membership in the exclusive Los Angeles Friar's Club. Soon after his acceptance, Roselli had organized and overseen a major card-cheating operation, one that had lasted four years and bilked scores of wealthy men (including millionaire Harry Karl, the husband of actress Debbie Reynolds) out of millions of dollars. In 1968, Roselli had been tried and convicted of illegal residence in the United States (he'd never acquired lawful US residence or citizenship) and had been ordered deported to Italy by the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Italy refused to accept him, so Rosselli remained in the United States.

In June 1975, Roselli had appeared before the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence led by Idaho Senator Frank Church to testify about his knowledge of and connections with the CIA's ill-fated Operation Mongoose. Shortly after Roselli had testified, the by-then disgraced former Chicago mob boss Sam Giancana had been shot and killed by an unknown assailant in the basement of his Oak Park, Illinois home days before he was to testify before that same committee, prompting Roselli (whose weakening power base had finally disappeared with Giancana's death) to permanently leave Los Angeles and Las Vegas for Miami.

On August 9, 1976, Roselli's decomposing body was found in a 55-gallon steel fuel drum floating in Dumfounding Bay, Florida. He'd been strangled and stabbed, his legs had been sawed off and stuffed into an empty oil drum along with the rest of his body. Many believe Roselli had been ordered killed by Florida mob boss Santo Trafficante because Trafficante had believed the aging Roselli had talked too much about the Kennedy assassination and Castro murder plots during his Senate testimony.

Bill Bonnano states in his autobiography that while he was imprisoned with Roselli he spoke to him about the Kennedy assassination. Roselli claimed that he had fired a shot from a stormdrain located on Elm Street.

Retrieved from "http://dot cdo dot co dot uk/jfk/wiki/index.php?title=John_Roselli"
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
84. Kicking this up.
And a hello to Octafish who sees the assassination of JFK as I do. I wish more did.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
89. He certainly wasn't the character portrayed in The Warren Commission Report-kick
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peanut2010 Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
90. An employee of Prescott Bush and Richard Nixon
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kevinds13 Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
101. Please read both sides before buying into the JFK conspiracy theories.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. That's like asking a Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim to read Darwin or Anton LaVey
Edited on Fri Nov-21-08 01:29 AM by apocalypsehow
before "buying into" their deeply-held faith - and make no mistake, the JFK conspiracy cult is a faith just every bit as full of gods and sacrifices and devils and angels and wise men and betrayers and prophets and apostles as anything to come out of human religion in the last 5,000 years.

See, they have no motive to read anything that even in the slightest counter-factuals their accepted brand of religion, and will hiss like scalded cats at the very suggestion.


(1). The JFK conspiracy cult has a martyred messiah, the man himself.

(2). His Calvary/Golgotha was a place called Dealey Plaza - and I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see a Church of the New Frontier Sepulcher erected by the cultists over the entire area in Dallas one day.

(3). It has a Satan and his legion of Fallen Angels - LBJ and the entire United States government (save for JFK and his brother Bobby, of course), plus the Mafia, the Cuban exiles, most Southerners, just about every Republican, a good many Democrats (all closet Dixiecrats, naturally), and, finally, anyone who has ever questioned in the slightest these notions by asking for verifiable facts. That last is in noticeable short supply in the JFK conspiracy cult.

(4). It has wise men, in the form of any crank who has ever written a semi-readable tract asserting that it was all a conspiracy - vast or otherwise - of some kind.

(5). It has a (sort-of) draftee-prophet - Dwight Eisenhower, playing John the Baptist to JFK's Christ (see Ike's farewell address, a favorite of the cultists).

(6). It has an arch-angel dictating a piece of Holy Celluloid Writ-drivel revered among the cultists for generations, in the form of Oliver Stone and the movie "JFK."

(7). It has - - - I could go on, but you get the general idea. Lonely people with empty souls, crowded minds, feverish, shallow intellects and much, much time on their hands gravitate to these kind of irrational passions - and it soon becomes dangerous to doubt in their presence.

Heretics, after all, are impediments to right thinking, and proper worship....

edit: stray tag closed.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #101
107. The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald
Perhaps "Reclaiming History" would not have been remaindered, if The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, had given Vincent a true test:
Jim DiEugenio makes the case here that Bugliosi backed himself into a corner in the JFK case. Gaining a false sense of the case from his drubbing of the ill-prepared Gerry Spence, in The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, Vince signs a book deal. Already committed to the book Vince then has to contend with the release of the movie JFK and the subsequent 1992 JFK Assassination Records Act. Which led to the formation of the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB)...
"Vincent Bugliosi is working on a book, in which he plans to evaluate the most important issues in the JFK case."

No, this was not a publisher's coming attraction blurb posted last book season on Rather, it was the lead item in Paul Hoch's newsletter, Echoes of Conspiracy, from October 16, 1987! Twenty years later, famed Manson gang prosecutor Bugliosi and publisher W.W. Norton have delivered a massive, oversized tome. And what it lacks in new (or old) persuasive material it makes up for in sarcasm, invective, and ad hominem attacks directed at critics of the Warren Commission's findings.

It may seem unusual to employ Bugliosi's name in the same vein as Shakespeare's, but amidst all of his bluster and bombast this reviewer was ultimately reminded of the line from Act 5 of Macbeth. To paraphrase: Reclaiming History is "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

To trace the genesis of this work one has to go back to a mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald sponsored by London Weekend Television over the course of three days in late July of 1986. Copious hours of footage were edited down to four hours and broadcast in 2-hour installments over two consecutive nights on November 21 and 22, 1986 on the Showtime cable channel. (It was broadcast in England and other European countries as well). Bugliosi was selected as the "prosecutor" and Oswald was represented posthumously by noted attorney Gerry Spence. Actual witnesses were called to the stand and the overall production was fairly noteworthy. As one who videotaped the program and watched it several times later, I came away from it feeling Gerry Spence was ill-prepared. (Bugliosi goes to great lengths in his book to dispel this, noting all of the time and resources Spence spent on the case). After deliberating for a day, the mock jury returned a verdict of guilty. As much as Bugliosi likes to remind his audience of this fact in both the book and interviews, he obviously views this as quite the feather in his cap. And he should. For just after the trial, Bugliosi signed a contract with Norton and received a generous advance (rumor has put it as high a $1,000,000) to write about the trial and the case in general. Indeed Bugliosi writes in his introduction that he commenced work on the book following the trial in 1986, bringing the tally on his time card for the project up to 21 years...

Gerry Spence did a great disservice to the case by not mounting a decent defense (i.e., his lackluster cross-examination of Ruth Paine).

Bugliosi would have been much better served, and saved himself years of fruitless research, if he had faced off against a Mark Lane. Mark Lane actually won a verdict back in 1995 by proving CIA/E Howard Hunt complicity in the assassination.
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Liberal OIF Vet Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #107
108. The biggest problem...
With the entire investigation (be it Warren Commission, Posner or Bugliosi)is the fact that they built the case presupposing that Oswald did it. They fit their case and evidence around the "fact" that Oswald did it. They totally discounted scores of other people and evidence that contradicted their conclusions. What a shoddy way to investigate. A detective would be fired if they ran a murder investigation like the Warren Commission ran theirs.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
110. "Oswald worked for CIA on high level assignments and probably for FBI" --
Tunnheim Panel report/JFK Assassination Classified Recorda Act 1992 -

Their report made to Congress behind closed doors ... while Clinton was

being impeached for lying about his personal sex life --

Also, CIA Director's letter to Secret Service also acknowledges this --

that they trained him to spy in Russia --

Dee: History Channel/A&E when it actually existed--!!
Doccumentary has probably beern confiscated--!!!

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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-21-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
132. I recommend "Executive Action"
it's not a documentary it's in the styple of Stone's "JFK" though better and more chilling. Mark Lane was one of the writers and the cast included noted Hollywood liberals like Robert Ryan, Will Geer and Burt Lancaster. It doesn't prove or disprove anything but it does give you something to think about. It is told from the conspirators point of view.

Executive Action is a 1973 movie about the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy.

Opening scene is set in June 1963 at a gathering of shadowy industrial, political and former US intelligence figures who are giving vent to their growing dissatisfaction with the Kennedy administration. The scene takes place in the plush surroundings of the lead conspirator, Robert Ryan, presumably a Texas oil baron. He and the others are trying to convince Ferguson, a white-suited and mustachioed figure a hugely powerful oil magnate to back their plans for an assassination of Kennedy. He remains unconvinced saying 'I don't like such schemes. They're only tolerable when necessary, and only permissible when they work.' Burt Lancaster, a black ops specialist, is also among the group. The film then cuts to somewhere in the desert where a shooting team is doing target practice at a moving object (note: this looks just like those tests the Discovery Channel did in their recent show on the assassination). One of the shooters says that they can only guarantee the operation's success by slowing down the target to 15 mph.

We then see sequences of the man in the white suit watching contemporary newsreel and becoming clearly concerned at Kennedy's increasingly 'liberal' direction: action on civil rights, Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, nuclear disarmament. The deciding moment comes when he's watching an anti-Kennedy news report on the deteriorating situation in South Vietnam. It is followed by Kennedy's 'suicidal' October 1963 decision to withdraw all US advisors from Vietnam by the end of 1965, effectively ending America's direct involvement in the Vietnam War. He picks up the phone to tell Ryan he now fully supports their project.

The film postulates the same theory as JFK that Lee Harvey Oswald is being steered to become the conspiracy's 'patsy', but unlike JFK, the conspirators use a double of Oswald to shadow him in the weeks leading up to the assassination to leave behind a trail that the authorities can easily follow and link Oswald to the assassination. The film makes no explicit link to US government agencies and the conspiracy, although the professionalism of Lancaster's shooting team clearly indicates they have worked for the CIA on special assignments. The film implies that most of the law enforcement and government agencies were not involved, but just grossly inept: no special measures were taken for the president's safety in Dallas; there is no communication between the FBI, CIA and Secret Service on possible security risks; even the head of the Secret Service stays in Washington during the visit. This explanation helps understand why the authorities were so keen to pin the blame on Oswald, the rogue assassin, who is 'served up' by the conspirators to the authorities as an easy escape from any accusations of their own negligence.

The post-assassination conspiracy is also covered in the film. Lancaster tells Chris, the head of the shooting teams, who at this point don't know who their target is, that after this job he and his men will never have to work again. All the assassins are black ops professionals trained never to talk about operations they are involved in. Each one is offered $25,000 per year for the next five years provided the operation's cover isn't blown. If the cover remains intact in five years time (1968) 'every man jack of them' (Lancaster) will receive a further $100,000 into their Swiss bank accounts. The head of the shooting teams then tells Lancaster: 'You just told me who we're going to hit.'

At the end of the film a photo collage is shown of 18 witnesses all but two of whom died from unnatural causes within three years of the assassination. A voice-over says that an actuary of the British newspaper The Sunday Times calculated the probability that all these people who witnessed the assassination would die within that period of time to be 1000 trillion to one.<1>

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-08 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #132
139. Cuba should be the one thing tying together the conspiracy...

mob gambling interests, labor-exploiting sugar cane interests, offshore oil drilling, anti-Castro mafia/CIA hitmen, and of course rabid, right-wing anti-Communists who didn't like JFK's relationship with Castro. Of course, where big business interests overlap with anti-communism, the CIA is to be found, and don't forget JFK's desire to dismantle the CIA and the CIA's anger at JFK's handling of the Bay of Pigs.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #132
143. Donald Sutherland wanted - Executive Action (1973) - subtitled C.I.A.

Executive Action:


Mark Lane the man who wrote">Executive Action (1973), gives some background on that movie at the 37-minute mark here:

Here are a couple more political assassinations just prior to JFK that can fall under the heading Executive Action:

Ngo Dinh Diem

The Assassination of Lumumba and the Mysterious Death of Dag Hammarskjold
The CIA has long since acknowledged responsibility for plotting the murder of Patrice Lumumba, the popular and charismatic leader of the Congo. But documents have recently surfaced that indicate the CIA may well have been involved in the death of another leader as well, U.N. Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjold. Hammarskjold died in a plane crash enroute to meet Moise Tshombe, leader of the breakaway (and mineral-rich) province of Katanga. At the time of his death, there was a great deal of speculation that Hammarskjold had been assassinated to prevent the U.N. from bringing Katanga back under the rule of the central government in the Congo. Fingers were pointed at Tshombes mercenaries, the Belgians, and even the British. Hardly anyone at the time considered an American hand in those events. However, two completely different sets of documents point the finger of culpability at the CIA. The CIA has denied having anything to do with the murder of Hammarskjold. But we all know what the CIAs word is worth in such matters...

Assassination requests would normally have gone to Richard Bissell. Because Bissell was away on vacation, Dulles told Eisenhower he would take care of Lumumba. According to Dulles family biographer Leonard Mosley, Dulles put Richard Helms in charge of preparing the assassination plot. A few days later, Helms produced a "blueprint" for the "elimination" of Lumumba.7 Although the Church Committee report includes no references to Helms involvement, this is certainly plausible. One of the first people involved in the plot to kill Lumumba was Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, who enjoyed Richard Helms patronage within the agency. As Helms moved up in the Agency, so too did Gottlieb.8 Gottlieb is identified as "Joseph Scheider" in the Church Committee report. Gottlieb was the grandfather of the CIAs mind control programs, as well as the producer of exotic and deadly biotoxins for the CIAs "Executive Action" programs.

After returning from vacation, Bissell approached Bronson Tweedy, head of the CIAs Africa Division, about exploring the feasibility of assassinating Lumumba. Gottlieb also conversed with Bissell, and claimed Bissell had indicated they had approval from "the highest authority" to proceed with assassinating Lumumba...

JFK - executive action part1/9
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. Thirteen Days (2000) is another good one...

Kevin Costner must have hit a little too close to home for the Pentagon's comfort with his Caesaresque portrayal of the relationship between JFK and his Joint Chiefs in Thirteen Days. BTW this excerpt from the Rolling Stone demonstrates Costner's level of interest in the JFK Case:

The Last Confessions of E. Howard Hunt
Around the time of st. john's Miami visit in 2003 to talk to his ailing father about JFK, certain other people were also trying to get things out of E. Howard, including the actor Kevin Costner, who had played a JFK-assassination-obsessed DA in the Oliver Stone film JFK and had become somewhat obsessed himself. Costner said that he could arrange for E. Howard to make $5 million for telling the truth about what happened in Dallas. Unbeknown to St. John, however, Costner had already met with E. Howard once. That meeting didn't go very well. When Costner arrived at the house, he didn't ease into the subject. "So who killed Kennedy?" he blurted out. "I mean, who did shoot JFK, Mr. Hunt?"...

The documentary Operation Hollywood laments the cozy relationship between Hollywood and the Pentagon. They note, at the 41:50-minute mark of Operation Hollywood, that Costner's Thirteen Days was one of the exceptions to that rule.

Another movie denied Pentagon cooperation, or as Amy Goodman puts it "The Access of Evil"}(, was John Frankenheimer's Seven Days in May (1964). Which coincidentally enough also depicted JFK's rocky relationship with General Curtis LeMay, via Burt Lancaster's - Gen. James Mattoon Scott.

Here are my Top 7 JFK-related movies:

1) Thirteen Days (2000)
2) JFK (1991)
3) Executive Action (1973)
4) Nixon (1995)
5) Seven Days in May (1964)
6) The Parallax View (1974)
7} JFK II -- JFKII - The Bush Connection - Additional Analysis and Evidence --">JFK jr
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. The Parallax View (1974) | Original Trailer (& review)

Which portrays the machinations behind sheep-dipping and setting up a patsy.

Is on Turner Classic Movies tonight.

Another movie that was overlooked on my list that deals with an Oswald-like patsy was">Shooter(2007).
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
147. the scapegoat for kennedy murder
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. Cut-outs, moles, patsies and provocateurs
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #148

One criticism of Executive Action is an omission from the footage at Love Field in the last few minutes of this clip:

JFK - executive action part7/9

Although it seems that the Rybka Tape may not have been discovered in 1973:

Still the most compelling case for government complicity is the..
Secret Service Stand Down
Could LHO have ordered the STAND DOWN in Dallas?
112th Army Unit ordered to "Stand Down" in Dallas
Trained U.S. Army Intelligence Units were told their assistance was not needed in Dallas during the JFK visit. William McKinney, a former member of the crack 112th Military Intelligence Group at 4th Army Headquarters, Fort Sam Houston, Texas, has revealed that both Col. Maximillian Reich and his deputy, Lt. Col. Joel Cabaza, protested violently when they were told to "Stand Down" rather than in report with their units for duty in augmentation of the Secret Service in Dallas, McKinney said, "All the Secret Service had to do was nod and these units which had been trained at the Army's top Intelligence school at Camp Holabird, Maryland would have performed their normal function of Protection for the President in Dallas."

And here's more video evidence of the Stand Down.
The Rybka Tape
An important discovery was made by this correspondent during review of video of the Dallas trip shot by the ABC television affiliate in that city. During the start of the fatal motorcade at Love Field, Secret Service agent Henry J. Rybka begins to jog alongside the presidential limousine. He is immediately called back by his shift leader and commander of the follow-up car detail, Emory P. Roberts.

You can also watch part of that clip at the 21:22 minute mark of JFKII - the Bush Connection

JFK Secret Sevice Stand Down
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
150. Lee Harvey Oswald was a US intel asset who was used as a patsy.
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