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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:00 AM
Original message
Take their money, use their energy, but don't pay too much attention to their demands.
Yes, I posted this last year. But I was reading it over again in the light of the transition team, in the light of Obama's staff picks. We are still in waiting mode, but never too early to be on guard. As an aside: I think we are very lucky to have Obama as our President Elect. If I question, it is the people around him I mean.

I see the same attitudes emerging from some people involved in all this change-over. I feel like many of us who worked for and donated to the DNC are not going to be needed again for the next four years. I did not think it would be that way. It does not hurt to be on guard. I felt like hubby and I were making a difference in the party since 2003. I do not feel that way right now, and someone needs to assure a whole lot of people.

For the over a decade that the Democratic Party has turned message control over to think tanks like DLC, PPI, and Third Way...all interconnected....they have been taught to think one way. They have been taught to be of the mindset that anyone other than the leaders of the party who make the decisions are not especially worthy to be involved in the planning. They use various names for us...netroots, nutroots, grassroots, bloggers, liberals, activists.

I have gathered several examples of what we are facing in trying to be relevant in a party that decided the direction years ago. It will be an unhill battle.

This following statement is absolutely the clearest evidence ever of the role that a corporate party thinks that the liberals, activists, grassroots, netroots should have in the party, the place that should be consigned to them. It is perfectly and beautifully said by a Democratic lobbyist in 2006.

Steve Elmendorf, lobbyist. (BTW...I saw his name mentioned as possible DNC chair. Can't find the link now.)

Note his words well. Contrast them with our outgoing chairman's attitude.

"The bloggers and online donors represent an important resource for the party, but they are not representative of the majority you need to win elections," said Steve Elmendorf, a Democratic lobbyist who advised Kerry's 2004 presidential campaign.

"The trick will be to harness their energy and their money without looking like you are a captive of the activist left."


To paraphrase, use them and toss them.

Now for Simon Rosenberg's words:

Blogs attack as party reaches for center

Simon Rosenberg who helped found the Democratic Leadership Council left little doubt about the purpose of their founding. He has distanced himself somewhat from the leadership such as Al From, but still calls his group the NDN..the New Democrat Network.

Simon Rosenberg, the former field director for the DLC who directs the New Democrat Network, a spin-off political action committee, says, "We're trying to raise money to help them lessen their reliance on traditional interest groups in the Democratic Party. In that way," he adds, "they are ideologically freed, frankly, from taking positions that make it difficult for Democrats to win."
How the DLC Does It


More about their opinions of us from a DLC editor, Peter Ross Range.

"My liberal friends are quick to point out that the left's chief grievance is with the war in Iraq, not the war on terror. But what does it do for the image of the Democratic Party -- not to mention the thinking of rank and file Democrats -- when some of our most skilled commentators use a moment of unambiguous terror to first find fault with an American policy (unseating Saddam Hussein) rather than first condemning the terrorists? It's both morally wrong and politically dumb. These musings in the left-wing blogosphere may be read regularly by only a few thousand people, but they seep into the intellectual bloodstream of the Democratic Party. They once again place Democrats on the wrong side of the ultimate issue of our time: winning the war on terror."

Liberals' war


No, Peter, you got it wrong. We recognize that the terrorist alarmists are pushing for war. We see that some in our own party are equally guilty of trying to play the fear factor.

And there is the old "there are not enough liberals" theme which is used by the groups that control Democratic policy.

"Since the 2004 election, wealthy liberals, lefty bloggers, and interest groups have been demanding that Democrats reciprocate their opponents' belligerent partisanship. Only by standing up for core liberal convictions, they argue, can Democrats galvanize a new progressive majority and "take America back." It sounds stirring, but there are three problems with that theory.

First, most 2006 voters expressed a strong preference for cooperation over partisan confrontation between Bush and the Democratic Congress. Second, in moderate America, there simply aren't enough liberals to get Democrats anywhere near a majority. Third, liberal and centrist Democrats sometimes interpret their party's core principles differently, especially on such important issues as the use of force, the benefits of trade, the role of government, and questions about religion and morality."
Polarize This


Yes, we do interpret those things quite differently. We are in the majority on the issues. There are a whole lot of liberals around.


In a low point in Democratic Party history, Pennsylvania Gov. Bob Casey was banned from speaking at the 1992 Democratic Convention for being opposed to abortion rights. This year, his son, Bob Casey Jr., who holds the same views, was actively recruited by that same Democratic Party and unseated Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa.

"This was a welcome move in a party that is home to vocal and organized far-left activists and bloggers who have grown increasingly shrill and threatening toward moderate and conservative Democrats. They also have excoriated former president Bill Clinton's brand of centrist politics. They argue for "party discipline," best exemplified by their jihad against Connecticut's Sen. Joe Lieberman for deviating from the party line on the Iraq war. During the past election for Democratic National Committee chair, delegates booed former congressman Tim Roemer of Indiana because he, too, opposes abortion rights."

Election Signals Decline of Old School Liberalism


No, it does not do that. It signals the willingness of the centrists in the party to give up the rights of women to win elections more easily. More of the giving up of the "traditional" interest groups.

And they invariably bring up the Lieberman case to prove the grassroots were wrong. They never point out that Lieberman became the Republican's poster child...they took up his cause because of the Iraq war. That is called dishonesty.

They believe that the Democratic leadership in Washington has been far too accommodating -- some would say feeble -- in its oppositionand that the only way to win electorally and legislatively is to fight ire with ire.

These polarized Democrats, who fueled the rise of Lamont's candidacy, have gone past disagreeing with the Republicans, to despising them.

They no longer see Republicans as the opposition, but as the enemy. And they believe that the end of defeating this enemy justifies just about any means. On the other side stands the school of problem-solving"

Lieberman Comes Back


The spin put on the most obvious things is amazing.

Even our most outspoken Democrats have learned, are learning, that you simply go along if you want to get along. Unfortunately one I greatly respect is becoming that way now. Maybe he is justifying his silence with the thought that his job of rebuilding is not yet finished, and that he needs to win the next election. Maybe he really goes along with much of the capitulation by congress. I doubt that, though.

A conversation today with Mr. Dean is a study in discipline compared with his offhand remarks that were prone to generate headlines four years ago. He doesnt disagree with the assessment, saying he is unlike the old me. Why such caution? You live and you learn, right? he replies.

Quiet Dean leads party


Updated today: He did his job well, he stayed on the talking points as best he could while making sure we knew he was still speaking for us. He's out now, and accused of being too partisan.

The party's congressional leaders, the WH staffers, have two directions in which to go. They may assume that the activists, grassroots, netroots, liberals are not their enemy after all, that many of us actually have good ideas, intelligence, and common sense....or they will continue to relegate us to the status of fringe.

The consequences of that will be a one-party country with no opposition party that is powerful enough to matter.

The Policy Shop is trying to grab the reins of power.

We need to be on guard.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Superb post!!!
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you so much.
And for the :applause:

:hug:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I am never disappointed when I click on one of your posts...
:thumbsup: :hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Many are.
disappointed that is. I think some others will be speaking up some also. :hi:
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justaregularperson Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
86. There will be no real change without continued pressure
Edited on Mon Nov-17-08 09:46 PM by justaregularperson
Even with Obama, anyone who understands American democracy understands that the true catalyst for change is relentless pressure from the people.

Change is like a cake. The "Frosting" is the president. Frosting is important to making the cake delicious and palatable. But it is the bread underneath that provides the substance. And we are that "Bread".

What you are doing Madfloridan is the right thing to do. We need to continue to let Obama know how we feel. That is the only way real change happens in American Democracy.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Very nice post.
"But it is the bread underneath that provides the substance. And we are that "Bread".

:hi:

You are right.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. I will rejoice when you, madfloridian, can embrace our new president.
Did you see the interview tonight? What specifically don't you like about him?

Yes, we need to be on guard. :eyes: Who's side are you on?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Read this.
. "As an aside: I think we are very lucky to have Obama as our President Elect. If I question, it is the people around him I mean."

I think he is under tremendous pressure from the conservative Democrats who are known for this.

We are making sure a whole group of people are not ignored.

I guess I could shut up. What do you think?

I know, I am a downer. Why are so many DEMANDING obedient unquestioning loyalty. Do you now see what his first pick meant?

Sorry I am disappointing people. I am hearing from many others concerned at the way that one of best leaders is apparently being tossed aside with mention. I am funny that way. But others care and wonder...not just me. They just are not willing to be controversial.

Did you read what I posted...what our leaders say about us?

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Please read this, and I think this is what's happening. Also, did you
see PE Obama and his wife on 60 Minutes, for most of the hour, tonight? I find them both delightful.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=7877855&mesg_id=7877855
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I adore the Obamas. I resent that you think I don't.
I am going to speak up when I see who he is being pressured by.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. You 'resent' everyone who doesn't agree with you. And please do
speak up! :thumbsup: or :fistbump:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. No, I don't resent those who disagree without putting me down.
I really don't. It is like there is a movement that there will be little questioning done.

I take a lot here, and seldom get mad but there is something going on about the DNC, something serious. Others are noticing. There will be more on it.

I don't mind disagreement or I would not post here.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Good. Then stop sounding like the hurt person and state your case.
That works all the way around. Perfect!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I stated my case clearly and you jumped my butt. Not fair.
My OP is clear about my concerns. Very clear,

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. "I jumped your butt". Again, it's all about you, my dear. But it's not. nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Who started that "all about me" talking point about me? It's overused.
And when did your sensible posts change to be fear of speaking out. You have always spoken out.

I think Obama is going to be dragged very hard by the centrist powers that be.

I think Dean will be left out in the cold after all his hard work.

It is about me ultimately, because right wing policies affect me. I trust Obama, I don't trust some around him.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. You do, with every breath you take.
Dean will land on his feet, have no fear. So will PE Obama.

I have faith. I hope you join me. Bon soir.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Not yet.
Not fair to go after me after a sensible post which is actually pro-Obama and anti-the ones who are trying to grab the reins.

I will survive here. I have for 6 years.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
97. I usually appreciate your DU comments, but
Babylonsister, you made a personal attack when you said that MF resents everyone, yet MF said it was your reaction that was resented. I call your responses unfair attacks.

What is wrong with calling out Democratic leaders for being anti-grassroots and anti-progressive? What is wrong with calling people to be on guard? Where did MF speak out against PE Obama? Even if that were true, then why not comment on posts where it was relevant?

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
84. His "Good job Brownie, er Hank" part of the message really upset me.
But hey it is gonna cost only $10K for every man woman and child, at a point when most of us are struggling. So what if it is stolen out from under us!!

With Paulson and Kashkari laughing at us progressives and our 'conspiracy theories' every damn cent of the way.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
52. No don't shut up
If your concerns are unfounded, it will come to light. If they are founded, we need our Paul Revere, now even as we needed him centuries ago.

I'm even more concerned about what you said about the possible new DNC chairman. I wish we could keep Howard Dean there, he's so damn good and we've had so much bad there (all of it with the unmistakable stink of DLC I've noticed). The thing with Obama is he listens carefully, but he is quite capable of making up his own mind and not giving into pressure unless it's necessary to the greater goal and he isn't blind even if some of his advisers are - he knows who brought him to the White House and it wasn't the DLC. He will only disregard what we have to say if, after careful consideration, it is necessary to do so. He is a reasonable, thoughtful, deeply soulful (not talking about his religion, only his spirit) person and he while he is also an astute politician, he can still be counted on to listen. I'm more than willing to revise that point of view later if it proves untrue.

I'm watching and I'm grateful for your (and others) observations. We are the watchers - most people care not one one thousandth as much as everyone here does. Keep watching and yes, keep sounding the alarm. So, people here blow off your alarm - it doesn't make you wrong or right. We all have our parts to play.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
98. You are not disappointing me. Thank you, Madfloridian. nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Whose side am I am on?????? Explain that. After all my years here?
You wonder?

What the heck is going on here, that blind loyalty is demanded.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Ok,, so what do you think if a person mentioned for new chair...
says this:

""The bloggers and online donors represent an important resource for the party, but they are not representative of the majority you need to win elections," said Steve Elmendorf, a Democratic lobbyist who advised Kerry's 2004 presidential campaign.

"The trick will be to harness their energy and their money without looking like you are a captive of the activist left."


What do you think? Note my other posts about all the warnings they are giving out libersals. Read my posts about why Dean's name is mentioned nowhere without the person being attacked. Why is that?


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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
53. That is the very part that has me concerned.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
90. Whose side are YOU on?
Edited on Mon Nov-17-08 10:34 PM by bobbolink
Damn... haven't we had enough with 8 years of this kind of ridiculous smear?????
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. I thought you were a centrist, DLCer type madfloridian?
Didn't you support Clinton in the primaries?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. We had no pick until the FL primary flak, then we picked Obama
I am pretty moderate over all, but becoming more liberal lately.

I don't like to be told I must love the people around Obama...his choice of Rahm sent a message to many of us who have been donating and working for many years because of Dean's inspiration.

Boy, people here don't tolerate questioning anymore. That's a shame. My post was good.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I apologize. I must have confused your username with somebody else. -nt-
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. You need to read my journals on the FL primary.
I spoke out about how wrong my state was.

I am going to speak out when part of our party that helped us win is being ignored and shut out.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
15. When I posted an almost identical post last year....it got few bad comments...
and I think about 60 something recommends.

What's changed?

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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
76. What's changed?
The same thing that happened during and after the '04 election. Lots of newbies that think they know everything, when in reality they know little.

After three computer crashes, I lost Elorial's thread on the DLC. It's the one that Samamtha contributed greatly. Do you still have it?

Btw, another excellent post!

Recommend.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Yes, I do have it. Just changed computers will have to search for it.
You want anything from 2002, 2003...I got it somewhere. :evilgrin:

Send me PM to remind if I don't get it to you by tomorrow.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Thank you!
I will gently remind you later.

One more time... YOU ARE NOT ALONE!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
18. k&r


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Hey, Swamp Rat. Good to see you.
You have not been around as much...You've had a heck of a year. :hug:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Way'at madfloridian!
:hi:I'll probably show up even less in the near future, as I have a lot of non-political work to do.:hug:

However, I am certain there are forces already working to undermine Obama's presidency, so I'll be scanning the news an d DU whenever possible.




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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
23. He hasn't even taken office and you're already backstabbing Obama.
Did you think he was only going to appoint liberal Democrats to all positions to the exclusion of everyone else? He's a person who likes to have people with different viewpoints around him. He said that during the campaign.

That's a real shitty headline. I'm sorry your cynicism makes you so eager to suspect the worst from Obama even before day one in office. That kind of cynicism only hurts the movement. The fact that Dean won't be DNC Chair anymore doesn't make Obama DLC. Its disingenuous to imply that those DLC quotes somehow reflect on Obama.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Thank you. xoxoxoxox I'm not alone. nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. No, I am the one alone. Totally alone here anymore.
Because I do not like some around Obama. I trust him but not some around him.

But go ahead and rip this whole thread apart with attacks on me.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. You are most certainly not alone
Every well-healed interest group is making a beeline to DC to tie their ropes around Obama's waist and pull him in their direction. There are quite a few of us who don't think that this is the time to drop our rope.
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
61. You are not alone
and your post was reasonable, certainly not over the top. Your basic message is that we should be on guard against being abused, which is a realistic and sensible approach to the change in DC power structure.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
62. No, you aren't
Not as long as there are still some progressive dems here despite the influx of DLCers.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
66. You are NOT alone.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
77. You are NOT alone!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
81. No, Madflo, you are not alone. There are many, many of us on DU who agree with you, especially
on this. But, it's not what you say, but how you bristle and act as if you have been personally insulted when someone disagrees with you.

You are a treasure on DU. I wish you would lighten up some and partake in the "give and take" without taking offense at every little thing others say that you don't buy.

Babylonsister, your comments are right on. And you are not alone. You, too, are a treasure here on DU.

Peace, sisters. We are all working for the same things. We just approach it from different angles. That's the beauty of a democracy.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Obama did not say it. My first few lines praised Obama.
You who are demanding no one speak out are doing no favors.

Why don't you contact the moderators and have them ban me?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. peace, y'all
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Tell that to the ones who don't want me to speak out.
My post was fine.

Thanks for trying to bring peace,though. You always do.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. You're playing martyr. No one is silencing you.
I'm not saying you shouldn't speak out. I'm saying you should at least be fair and honest.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. My post is fair and honest and very clear.
I am updating my list...why don't you?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. updating your list? huh?
I don't think there's anything fair about throwing out a bunch of offensive DLC quotes and implying that it somehow reflects on Obama. If you can prove that Obama is going to "Take their money, use their energy, but don't pay too much attention to their demands." then go ahead and show the proof. Otherwise I think you're just spreading cynicism based on wild speculation.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. mad, bed time? It is for me. nt
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Me too... nite nite!
:hug:


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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Then why include those quotes in a post about Obama? And why the headline?
There doesn't seem to be any point other than associating him with those views.

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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. Is this a political party or a personality cult? Criticizing Obama isn't backstabbing.
:eyes:

You know what's going to happen if he gets no criticism from the left? He's going to think we're perfectly pleased with him at all times, work on pleasing the displeased, and move toward the center/right. That's just how politics work.

In other words, the squeaky wheels get the grease.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Or as I prefer to say,
'The squeaky mouse gets the cheese.' :D :9




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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Oh, thank you. This is like an effort to stop any criticism and it needs to stop. Thanks.
People are afraid to post in my threads lately. When I defend myself, I get accused of making it all about me.

Thanks for getting it.

I trust Obama, but he needs the voice of the left.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Could we at least criticize him for things he does or talks about doing?
What good does it do to make accusations based on speculation?
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Well, for starters, his staff picks (and rumored picks) have been pretty status-quo.
So that would definitely lend some weight to speculation. In any case, unless he comes out and tells us his political assessment and the actions he expects to result, of course any discussion is to some degree speculative. That's just the nature of the game.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. All I'm saying is give hope a chance.
At some point I got tired of the entrenched cynicism on the left. First, it was Obama must be centrist because he gets media coverage and raises money. Then he's centrist because no Democratic nominee could possibly be a real liberal. Now he's centrist because he made four appointments to non-policy positions and none of them were Noam Chomsky or Ralph Nader.

If people are this eager to be disappointed then they will be no matter what Obama does. The Republicans are eagerly hoping for liberals to be quickly disenchanted with Obama so they can bounce back in two years. So pushing this cynical meme even before giving Obama a chance to take office doesn't help anything.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Holy fallacious reasoning, Batman!
Your post, sentence by sentance:

Appeal to emotion.

Ad hominem. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman.

Ad hominem. Appeal to fear. Begging the question.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. As opposed to the OP?
Come on, the OP was nothing but a straw man and far fetched guilt by association attack.

And no, pointing out the pattern of cynicism and its destructiveness is not a strawman or ad hominem. Liberals need to ask themselves if always making arguments from a cynical perspective, even when its our allies, is really helping our cause in the long run. That kind of cynicism keeps a lot of people disengaged on the sidelines.

Hope is a necessary step toward positive change. That's not an appeal to emotion. Its a serious point that everyone should understand.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. Please read this:
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Not impressed.
:shrug:
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
56. Backstabbing???..... wow.
Unlike your post, MF's post was well written.

Unlike your post, MF's post was logically constructed.

Unlike your post, MF's post was well documented.

MadFloridian is expressing a valid concern shared by many long term members of DU, myself included.
Looking at the transition teams and early appointments, it appears that Republicans, Conservative Democrats, Clinton Retreads, Wall Street CEOs, War Supporters, Masters of Rubinomics, and Billionaires all have voices in the new Obama administration.
Missing so far: the voice of a single Liberal Democrat.

None of us here were under the delusion that Obama was a Liberal. Our hope was merely to have a voice or an acknowledgment in his administration, but so far, it is a shutout, just like the last 30 years.

My concerns are valid.

MadFloridian's post is proper and justified.

Calls for Lockstep Obedience and Blind Faith Support are repugnant.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone









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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. Well reasoned? Please.
She gave a bunch of offensive quotes and used a weak guilt by association argument to suggest the quotes somehow reflect on Obama. Its about as well reasoned as the William Ayers attacks. Asking someone to be intellectually honest and at least let Obama take office before forming the circular firing squad is far from asking for blind faith.

Is Obama supposed to shut out any and all centrists from his administration? Would that make the OP happy?

I'm sorry you don't see Obama's liberal record or liberal platform as liberal. I would guess the same cynicism that keeps you from believing Obama is liberal is the same cynicism that makes you so eager to believe poorly reasoned posts like this one that paint a worst case scenario.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. Do your self a favor.
Go to this site and study:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

After spending a few days at the above link, come back and look at your post #23.
See how many Logical Fallacies you can spot in your own post.

This exercise will hurt, but it will be good for you and your reputation at DU.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. I especially liked the entries about
guilt by association, misleading vividness, hasty generalization, appeal to fear, and straw-man as they apply to the original post.

But I guess its easy to ignore logical fallacies when someone is telling you what you want to believe. It reminds me of how quickly people ignored Obama's record and statements for fair trade when Naomi Klein wrote a guilt by association article based on Obama's U of Chicago connections. What makes people so eager to validate their belief that Obama must be conservative? A decade of "the lesser of two evils" talk and Nader's arguments about the two parties being the same? Cynicism? I think the left needs to take an inward look and recognize the difference between skepticism and cynicism and ask if cynicism is serving us well.

I also notice that your response to me included an Appeal to Belief. Just because there are more than a few DUers with a certain fear, doesn't make it true.

I'll be pushing Obama to move left too, but I won't start by engaging in mind reading attacks against him. It doesn't help anything.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
42. Wow..that's the subject line I used before when it got little criticism.
Because then people knew it was not about Obama, but about the ones trying to drag us right.

It even got a lot of recommends. But now it is wrong to post almost the exact same thing?

I can't wait to see the attacks in the morning. Will be overwhelming.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. After eight years of abject (and deserved) hatred of Bush, some people have lost the capacity for
nuance.

Bush is stupid and evil. Obama is not Bush. Therefore he is brilliant and good.

In a few months, most will get over it. The ones who don't, well, some people just like a simplified worldview. :shrug:

11/4/08 was not the end of politics, or even the end of politics-as-we-know-it. The struggle doesn't end just because your party's in power. The sun doesn't shine out Obama's ass, he's not going to give us all a pony, and we're still going to have to raise our voices and sometimes take to the street to get our way.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Again, thanks.
I think I will hide my own thread in the morning. :eyes:

Funny thing was I complimented Obama in the first paragraph.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. Yes, when it's deserved. Not before then, and now is not the time.
Got that? My glasses aren't rose-colored, and I realize the challenges in our future. I know I will have my criticisms, but as I said, NOW is not the time. Give the guy a break to get his cards in order. Will you applaud him when he does good? Will the OP? I wonder.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. Lobbyists like Elmendorf have his ear right now.
Elmendorf is quoted in every article about Obama's transition, pulling him sharply to the side of lobbyists. He is the one who said distance from us.

Obama is under huge pressure, he needs to have us put our views out there...even if he does not get to hear them.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
64. So this was just flame bait huh?
Yeah, I'd say applying a line about dragging us right and laying that accusation at Obama would get a response. Its a pretty ugly and completely unfair attack.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
49. K & R! nt
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
51. You are not alone, MF!
I'm a liberal because liberal ideas are the right ideas, not because I like it when my "team" wins elections.

If the financial crisis teaches us little else on the political front, it should teach us that conservatives and corporatist Democrats were and continue to be completely wrong on economic leadership.

I agree with Obama on the need to move forward with good ideas. So let's walk away from the failed center right policies of the past that got us deeper in the hole through deregulation, corporate welfare, tax cuts for the rich, big defense spending and cuts to vital social services. Reagan famously said "Government is not the solution, Government is the problem." He then proceeded, with the help of moderate Dems (including Clinton, later) to replace Big Government with the much more dangerous Big Corporation. Now that the ideological movement he foisted onto us has failed so spectacularly, it's time for something completely different.

If Obama allows himself to be pushed toward Clintonian style governance rather than enacting true populist reform, there is a real threat that a third party could organize, taking advantage of all of the "netroots" activism, and win at the national level. Look at how successful the kooky Ron Paul was at raising money, and that was even before the financial crisis pushed monetary policy into the spotlight.

Obama is a very likable and inspiring figure. I wish him much success in office. We are facing extraordinarily difficult times and I hope that he will be willing to take the political risks necessary to see us through. This country has never progressed far with leadership that played it safe.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
57. K&R....Good work!
:patriot:


"Think for yourself and question authority."

I find the calls for Lockstep Obedience and Blind Faith Support to be somewhat frightening.

The time to pay attention is NOW.
The time to Speak Up is NOW.
The hard work begins NOW.

Those who want me to Sit Down and Shut Up can Bite Me.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
58. My mistake...it is Steve HiIdebrand maybe for chair, not Elmensdorf
Sorry about that.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. so it was wild speculation... gee thanks!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
69.  Elmendorf's name is in every news article about Obama
He is a very powerful lobbyist, and those are his words about the grassroots.

Why doesn't that bother You at all.

Oh, never mind.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. No...actually his name isn't in every aticle about Obama... but dont let that stop you.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Do a search on his name. And I say goodbye.
And am updating my list. I have had it.

You want no questioning no dissent. Update your list as well.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. i know the name, thank you! but your post is still bullshit. as in- not factual.
i guess you don't need any credibilty when your ignore list is a mile long.
happy to be on it, if it gives you any peace to spew unquestioned.
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
67. Well done (as per usual) ... K&R nt
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
75. Any DINO with "winning the war on terror" on their lips should be immediately
thrown out of the party and banned from serving in the government, any advocacy group, and the DC city limits. This is pure propaganda to incite fear and continue the mind boggling profits of the MIC.

It is not possible to fight a war against a tactic, a tactic I would remind you that we engaged in to secure our nation.

Terrorism is a law enforcement issue and cannot be ended militarily.
:kick: & R


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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
80. Now that there's a Dem in the WH....
I plan on holding their feet to the fire with as much, if not MORE, vigor as I did to Bush for 8 years. I will question everything, I will demand accountability. I will loudly pass judgement on everything right and everything wrong they do.

I have been a bit disturbed by some of what I am seeing from the Obama camp.

He's already heard from me once. I am sure it will not be the last time. :)

Thanks for the reminder, MF! :hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. I probably would have said little, but the choice of Rahm caused me to speak out.
He is not a friend of the grassroots, and he has hurt FL by forcing the wrong candidates in too many districts.

Look what happened to the GOP when they became lockstep with the religious right to win.

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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #82
93. I'm not a fan of Rahm Emmanuel
But blaming him for the lack of electoral success in Florida seems unfair.

The Florida Democratic Party had two disastrous choices for gubernatorial candidates during the past few elections. I don't believe that Rahm Emanuel was responsible for either of those.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. I have written a lot about how he forced candidates on us here...
and in many cases Democrats were pushed out of the race. I was not speaking of gubernatorial candidates, as he would not have anything to do with those.

I am speaking of House seats, and yes it was his fault. He came here to our state and picked who he wanted.

If you don't believe me, and nothing I say will cause you to do so, and I don't especially care anyway......you can do a search on my name and Mahoney, and or Lutrin, and or Schneider, and so on and so on.

Rahm and his hand-picked Red to Blue chair, Debbie Wasserman Schultz had terrible results in our state this time. We had really competitive races in some cases, but we lost them all. In South Florida it took Debbie WS ages of attacks by the blogosphere to support our 3 S. Fla Dems running because she was buddies with the Diaz Balarts and Ros Lehtinen, Republicans.

Rahm was not DCCC during all of this, but he was during part of it, and the policies continue. With the help I say of our state chairwoman Karen Thurman who paid many visits with Rahm.

He "sabotaged" some good Democrats here in our state and in other states.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. You seem to want to blame all the lack of electoral success of
Florida Democrats on outsiders.

We lost the governor's race twice when both times Florida Democrats should have had great opportunities. Both times, we had terrible candidates--I don't think that people outside of Florida chose either one.

Barack Obama's team showed up very late in the electoral season due to the asinine actions of Florida Democrats. They organized a great campaign and they won. They also did a good job, as far as I could see, of bringing the Clinton supporters back into the Party.

Perhaps Florida Democrats should look at themselves and wonder, "Why have we been so unsuccessful at winning anything in Florida? Why have we lost so many statewide and local offices?", rather than complaining about what might possibly, if, when happen with the Party structure when Obama becomes President.

Personally, I never thought that Obama would take Florida. The divisions between the Clinton and Obama factions seemed too great to overcome.

But, that's been true of every gubernatorial election in Florida and some of the other statewide elections that I've watched unfold--the Party torn to pieces. The success of the Obama Campaign seemed to be that in a lot of ways they simply avoided the traditional party structure.

Maybe those of us in Florida should be begging the Obama campaign to send us some folks that can focus more on getting Democrats elected--folks that will stay a few years until Florida Democrats get it.


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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. You obviously have not read many of his posts. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. I don't think you have read all the many many many journals I wrote
on the FL primary. So really, why argue if you have not read them.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. I did read many of them.
Lots and lots and lots of them about Howard Dean. Much less about the persons running for election.

Which was, I think, my point.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. I wrote a lot about the ones running in FL. I gave you names to search on.
I wrote about others in other states who got the shaft from the party. I mentioned names to you.

So I gather you just want to pick an argument. When I sense that I update my list. Life is too short and there is so much to say. Bye now.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. There were many Floridians who are very good Democrats
Edited on Wed Nov-19-08 07:29 AM by suzie
that feel our state was shafted by Howard Dean. Many of them came back and worked just as hard for Obama as those of us who'd chosen Obama before the primary did.

Although a newcomer, I read the instructions and pleas here on DU to put the tensions and the divisiveness of the primary season be behind us.

When you criticized me for not reading your journals, I went back and once more looked over the ones since the primary season. There seemed to be way more about Howard Dean than about Obama.

Given that you are from Florida, and understand the depth of the feelings about Dean from many who supported one candidate in the primary and another in the General Election, it seemed that your great goal was to simply continue an 'in-your-face' attitude to any remaining Clinton supporters left here. You continued with updates on every possibly negative thing like lawsuits that Clinton supporters have done in Florida, long past the primary election.

That's just the kind of attitude that has divided the Democratic Party in Florida for many years--disagree on candidates, take sides, bash each other relentlessly, never come together behind a candidate, nurse your grievances until the next election. Whether Rahm Emanuel supports a candidate or not is immaterial if Democrats are so divided that they can't get together to support a candidate based on previous disagreements.

The Obama campaign bypassed that sort of toxicity. One of my personal goals in voting for Obama was the hope that his campaign would supplant the state Democratic Party leaders, followers and whiners and simply install a new set of people who can focus on getting candidates elected to office, not on who did what to whom in this year, that year, this particular seat.


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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #82
104. Yup, the Rahm pick just floored me.
I know all about that guy. :( He loves corporate America and Israel -- that's about it. And now the worst kind of corporate lawyer in as AG -- Clinton retreads everywhere. Bleck.

Not happy right now. Not happy at all.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
83. K & R for the sad truth.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
85. perfect/ k.RRRRRRRRRR!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. Obama cannot possibly have any enemies among our leadership.
Yeah, right.

What a ridiculous idea.
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antimatter98 Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
91. I definitely believe the passionate left was used in this election.
I'm seeing every day since Nov. 4th that the Obama White House is trianglulating, being "Pelosi/Reid" nice to those who would have destroyed the country under Bush/Cheney, and is generally
running a make nice country club.

But, the Obama campaign used the passions and the personal energy of those on Main Street who
had had 'enough.' Obama even used 'Enough!' as a punctuation mark and rallying cry in the
campaign hustings.

I'd say, we're going to get a WH that Pelosi/Reid would operate--- forgive everyone, and
be so in the middle, so without conviction, so moderate, that the Republican party is
placated, corporate power is not firewalled from the political process, but those on
Main Street who gave of their time and hard earned money end up 'punked.'

I wish I felt differently, that the evidence I see were not there. We went door to door
to have a 'nice, conservative, do nothing' next four years that will dine with those
who tried to destroy the Constitution, while we are locked out and left out.

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
95. As the grassroots, bloggers, activist and being important every 4 years...
we are in a position to use that the tools we have and promoting our activism to drive change.

We know we can, we proved that on November 4, 2008. Activist can change the world if enough of us can agree on a common cause, then we are unstoppable.

We use our activism to tell the party leaders what we want and we keep driving it home. We can't just sit back and wait for the call in 3 years to repeat our rolls in this past election. No we have to stay tuned in and call things like we see them.


Stand up and stay fired up.
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RevolutionToday Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
96. Obama will listen to progressives when we actually have something to offer him
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 01:29 PM by RevolutionToday
The hand-wringing over a known centrist is ridiculous, what did you seriously expect? Progressives have failed, for 50 years on, to organize together and claim our seat at the table of power along with all those other moneyed interests. The millions of Obama supporters, many having learned how to organize effectively for the first time this summer, are now united enough that we can start building a real, bankrolled progressive movement on the scale of the conservative cultural revolution. Obama didn't just use our energy, he focused it correctly so now we are aware that Yes We Can! We can win any victory we really work for. It is up to us to follow through. If we fail to do so, then we are morons who haven't learned from history.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. That's what I am doing. Offering something. I am an Obama supporter.
Obama has gatekeepers now, powerful ones. I doubt our voices will be heard that much.
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RevolutionToday Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. The flipside of making an offer are the consequences of withholding it
Is Obama scared that if he loses progressive support then he can't run the government well, can't win reelection? Are Obama supporters organized enough to make demands with real weight behind our actions? I'm not talking about kids protesting to no avail either. Can we get progressives, even at an intern level, in the white house and help us get a foothold in there while we build a progressive movement so strong on the outside that it crashes into the doors of power with thunderous might? If we can't do that, why would Obama listen to us? Politics is all about power, even the poorest people fighting for their rights don't get them out of a sense of compassion from a benevolent leader, they fight for them and gain political power. We have the skills and the tools, don't expect Obama to directly give us any more than that. A few pieces of legislation Obama passes that we like is likewise not us gaining a voice, it is us begging for scraps and some trickle down every once in a while.
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