I'm so sad. Argument with my mother over gay marriage

[redstate_democrat]

I've been reading a lot of the comments on this board about the gay marriage vote that happened in California. I didn't really participate in the discussions because I didn't want to sound offensive to people who were hurting. I'm not gay so I can't possibly know how gay people are feeling right now. I also was kind of turned off by the racial overtones in a lot of the threads.

However, I was talking to my mother this evening and she brought up the gay marriage issue. She was watching some documentary with Rosie ODonnell about gay families. She said the most disturbing thing to me. She said she just found it "immoral" and that she was listening to NPR today and someone had emailed in and compared gay rights movement to the civil rights movement of the 60s. She genuinely was outraged at that. She basically said, "They aren't even comparable! How dare they!"

My mother grew up in the Jim Crow south. I know a lot of older black folks get upset when these two struggles are compared.

But listening to her really upset me. Her own brother, who was gay, died of AIDS four years ago. I wondered how she could hold such feelings when her own brother struggled with his identity his entire life. He had been subjected to hate crimes, having been beaten to a pulp twice (that I know of) for just being who he was.

So I started trying to talk to her about how gay people must feel, knowing that I have NO CLUE. She just looked at me with this look like how could you be saying this right now. I asked her why she even cared what gay people do in their own lives. She said, "It's in the bible! It's immoral. God said man for woman not man for man." I just looked at her. Then I said, well the bible also said slaves should obey their master. Now, I can remember reading this same explanation before and feeling insulted. But today, I found myself using the same language. Then I asked her, why shouldn't gay people be allowed to raise their families in peace when there are some people who don't even want their children. She had been watching the show and two gay men were raising several children. She was appalled. I told her to think about where those children would be without them.

Then I just continued with the arguments that I had heard before from others. I really felt sad because she had passion in her discussing this issue. I didn't know she felt that strongly about it.

Then I said to her, well, if being gay is a sin in the bible, so is fornication. "You fornicate so you are no better off then them if you think it is sin." She could have killed me with her eyes.

Then I said to her that gay people have also been attacked, killed, etc, for being just who they are. Her response? "Well, I'm not for that. They shouldn't be harmed in any way." I was like, "Well thank you. Isn't that humane of you." She went on to say she didn't mean it like that. She just doesn't believe in gay marriage because of the BIBLE. The bible told her so.

I was raised in the church. I'm not a frequent church goer anymore. I can remember at a young age asking questions about the bible that no one could ever give me the answers to. So I just sort of drifted away from it. I hate that religion makes people so close-minded. It makes people so illogical.

I think one of the main issues some blacks have with arguments for gay marriage is when people compare civil rights for gays to The Civil Rights Movement. I think a lot of black people have a special reverence for that period and find insult when others, no matter who they are, compare their struggles to it because of the history of this country. Sort of like if some group were to compare their suffering, perhaps just as horrific, to that of the Holocaust.

I don't know, I just wanted to share this. I wished that things were different. I wish that all people could just accept and respect one another.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. Take a deep breath. We need to enjoy Obama right now...

But then, once he's in office, we'll all regroup and fight the rest of those fights!

[YvonneCa]

2. Just a thought for you to ponder...

...about this:

I've seen many religious people who take the same position as your mother on this. Good people. Caring people. What I've learned is that it's ignorance. They think being gay is a choice, not a human condition (like race). And because it is a choice...in their mind...it is a sinful choice in their religious view.

There is an education 'gap'. JMHO.

[David__77]

8. It shouldn't matter whether it's a "choice" or not.

There is nothing immoral about homosexuality. That's the bottom line. I'm gay and I would not have it any other way.

[YvonneCa]

14. I agree. It shouldn't matter...

...and it is not immoral. I was just offering support to the OP in dealing with a family member. To some people...who react as this mother did...they need their family to educate them.

[Grey]

3. I wish you well....

I know how sad it is to have a bigoted parent.

[Zhade]

4. Well, tough. Our struggle is EXACTLY the same.

They should be ashamed of themselves for not realizing they're aiding and abetting the same type of people who would have stood against their rights.

[KurtNYC]

19. It is not exactly the same

There are actually huge differences in the dynamics and history of the 2 struggles.

[mondo joe]

24. The struggles for Jews, Blacks, Women, Gays are all different. But it's all about civil rights.

And civil rights aren't a reward for suffering enough - they're what EVERYONE is supposed to have.

[Toasterlad]

26. Exactly. The Similarities Will Always Outweigh the Differences

Civil rights are civil rights.

[shireen]

5. "God and Gays"

This is a documentary that will be released on Dec. 8th -- perhaps you can get it for your mom as a Christmas present? :)

Seriously, tho' ... it covers some of the theological issues regarding what the Bible really says about homosexuality. Anti-gay bible arguments arise from lack of understanding of the culture and time when the books were written, misinterpretations (symbolism vs. literal), and mistranslation.

If your mom sincerely wants to understand this issue -- and I hope you encourage her to confront it --she needs to make an effort to understand the complexities behind the Bible, how it originated, how it was translated, why some books were included and not others, and most of all, how it has been misused to manipulate people. Instead of putting her faith in Bible study teachers who tell her how to think, suggest to her that God gave her a brain, and she should do her own research and make up her own mind. She should not be afraid; this is not meant to destroy her faith, it's meant to enrich it.

http://www.godandgaysthemovie.com/

Another source of information:
http://www.soulforce.org

[elshiva]

6. Sorry. I'm white, but my grandmother was like that, too.

She clung to that interpretation of the Bible. She thought that what gay men did together was an abomination. It really hurt me because I am a bisexual woman. I never came out to her, she probably couldn't have handled it. :(

:hug:

[YvonneCa]

16. That's what they are taught to believe...

...and the teaching succeeds because of ignorance. It may never change in an older generation...but the key is education. JMHO.

[illuminaughty]

7. I was explaining Prop 8 passing to my 86 yr. old mother

She said, "What business is it to them who gets married?" Love her. She reads the Bible but likes to stick to the words of Jesus.

I'm sorry you had this argument. Believe me, if it were my youngest brother who thinks he's a Christian, I would have been a similar scenario as yours.

[xochi]

9. I feel your sadness. So many people call themselves good Christians

who use the Bible to justify their closed minds and their closed hearts--even their greed!--but somehow seem to gloss over the Beatitudes. WTF is up with that? If Jesus were alive today, hanging with the poor, the persecuted, and the shunned, they'd probably want him arrested. It's fear and ignorance that fuel hatred and intolerance, and THAT'S what is immoral.

[ColbertWatcher]

10. "... one of the main issues (...) is when people compare ..."

"... civil rights for gays to The Civil Rights Movement."

Instead of arguing who can claim the "right" to use the name "civil rights," why not use a different framing?

A week ago, there was another thread, that asked for "alternative language." (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4389779&mesg_id=4389779)

I thought about it for a while and responded with...

"Constitutional visibility/invisibility?"

One of the concerns gay people have is that the words "gay, lesbian, transgender, (etc.)" do not appear in any of the legislation providing protections against discrimination. Hence, resigning them to a status of invisibility.

(http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4389779&mesg_id=4398132)

Basically what I mean is that when a law is originally written, there is usually an assumption that it covers all citizens equally. However, as time goes on, there are interpretations of the law based on a narrow reading that twists that original intent.

This is essentially the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

First off, let me say that I am not a lawyer, but I have seen many instances where the law is meant to say one thing and certain persons *cough, cough* Republicans *cough, cough* interpret it to mean something else, based on a deliberately misleading and assholish reading of the law.

I think one example might be the due process clause of the 14th amendment. I invite any lawyers reading this to correct me if I'm wrong, or expand on this if I'm right. The due process clause is supposed to protect people from being deprived of their "life, liberty, or property, without due process of law," but the Bush Administration has taken that to apply only to U.S. citizens and not the detainees in Gitmo, who they consequently tortured.

For the Bush Administration, the due process clause does not apply to non-U.S. citizens, because they are not specified in the text of the law and thus--in the GOP's minds--these detainees are "invisible."

Since, I'm not a lawyer, it's taking me a while to work out the kinks of this idea. I suspect that there are instances in the equal protection clause (and possibly the 9th amendment as well) that could work in this framing, but I don't understand all the nuance well enough to make my idea clear.

Nonetheless, I think there's something in the idea of "Constitutionally invisible persons" that can be used to reconcile a genuine sense of justice with the technicalities of written law in regards to gay marriage.

[tkmorris]

11. And once again the Holy Babble scores a victory over rational discourse

So much of the evil that permeates our modern society comes directly from that evil book. When oh when are we, as a people, going to leave it behind and actually become civilized? It won't happen i my lifetime, of that I am certain.

[and-justice-for-all]

12. Your mother does not have to BELIEVE in gay marriage.....

you can not give one group of people one thing and not the other, that is wrong. I do not need your mothers or anyone elses permission on how I choose to live my life. I am pissed off just by the fact that they held a vote on Gay Marriage, should never have happened! and the Supreme Court needs to tell the religious nuts and the rest of the bigots.. tough shit!

Your mother is also misinformed, jeebus never mentioned homosexuality, it is no where to be found in the babble. The babble, is no place to found moral guidance either; it is loaded with rape, murder, genocide, baby killing, degrading of women etc ... I do not know how anyone could think that that bronze age desert dogma is rational and had a place in the 21st century.

It is also correct to compare the civil rights movement 60s with the civil rights movement of the Gay community; she must have forgotten that is was once immoral for a white girl to hold hands with a black man.

Civil rights are Civil Rights and no group has the right to keep another down for any reason.

[YvonneCa]

17. "Civil rights are Civil Rights ...

... and no group has the right to keep another down for any reason." I completely agree.

But some people perceive this issue as "I agree with civil rights around the issue of race, because people are born into the race they are. I don't agree with it being civil rights around gay issues because being gay is a choice...a sinful choice, according to my Bible."

THAT is wrong...and is THE problem, IMHO. Being gay is not a choice. THAT's what makes it a civil rights...human rights...issue. The ignorance that it is a choice needs to be dispelled.

[and-justice-for-all]

22. Thats right...

I do not think it is a choice either. So so what if it was a choice, it still does not justify telling people whom they can and can not marry.

Marriage is not that sacred, otherwise they would be protesting drive-thru Vegas weddings.

[YvonneCa]

23. I agree. This line is good and also...

...pretty funny:

"Marriage is not that sacred, otherwise they would be protesting drive-thru Vegas weddings." :7

[and-justice-for-all]

28. hehe..thanks...nt

[silverojo]

13. My mom, who's 74, is totally FOR gay marriage

I thank God every day that she thinks all organized religion is bullshit. Makes her a far more open-minded person than those Jesus Juice drinkers.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. It's going to be a generational change, especially in areas where

there is rampant bigotry against gays. :(

[TrogL]

18. Research how the Bible treats eunuches

It seems wierd that they're encouraged to marry.

[CraftyGal]

20. I have to say that as a white, bisexual woman I have faced many of the bigitrous issues out there.

I am half in the closet and half out because I am unsure as to how people will see me and to a greater extension treat me. For instance neither my mother nor birth mother know that I am bisexual. Not all my friends know either and that is because I can hide behind the veil of acceptance because I am married to a wonderful man who is also bisexual. He is out of the closet, and he has watched me struggle with deciding to come out of the closet.

Sometimes he is having to correct my language because I had bought into this whole idea that being gay, bisexual or transgendered was a choice...a "lifestyle" if you will. I realize now that it no more a choice that breathing. Now to feel safe about coming out.

CraftyGal

[nichomachus]

21. Once they bring up the Bible, any rational discussion is over

There is no argument you can make -- especially if the person hasn't given an indication that they're confused or "seeking" the truth.

If they're just making statements and backing it up with the Bible, it's best just to end the discussion.

The only thing I say to my family now is, "I'm kind of disappointed, because I know you're a better person than that."

And then, I change the subject.

[mondo joe]

25. Thanks for talking with your mom and sharing. Sincerely. And I'm struck by one thing

you discussed - the "fornication" thing.

I know a lot of people say they oppose same sex marriage because of their religion. But we know many of those people violate it themselves - the most obvious instances being extramarital sex, divorce and abortion.

I guess there's a split for people between what they do, and what others do.

[Booster]

27. Man, these people are going to be shocked when God decides

to add an addendum to the Bible that says "Oh, yeah, and treat my gay people as you want to be treated, with respect and equality". I always wonder why no one questions the fact that God had never thought it necessary to add anything more to the Bible - odd, don't ya think?