there seems to be a pattern here of gays getting shouted down until they are silent

[IndianaJones]

I was a lurker during the whole Snickers commercial deal. Gays were whiners.

I was around during the primaries. Gays that spoke out about McClurkin were whiners or displaying "false outrage".

Gays that post about hurtful terms and slurs - whiners, more false outrage.

I am a racial minority. I can guarantee that those of Asian descent that voted at a 50% rate for Prop 8 did so for a couple of reasons: church or tradition. My mom has voted Democrat since she could vote in the early 70's. She used to tell me when I was a kid "there are no gays in Korea". A ridiculous statement, but that is the attitude of many Asians - something is wrong with gays. The Korean Baptist Church is big. Again, homosexuality is wrong there. When I call out Asian Americans that voted for this, am I being racist? I expect white people to vote for it in large numbers....minorities should know better. 50% is too high. 5% is too high.

Polls of African Americans consistently show high percentages that find homosexuality unacceptable. Denying this is ridiculous. Calling it out is appropriate. When Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle call out white people for racism, they don't mean all white people...just the large percentage that are racists. Is this false outrage on their part? Is this the mythical "reverse racism"?

You can check my posting history. I call out white people all the time. I think most white people are racists. I also don't care if gays call out racial minorities for helping their white masters throw them under the bus in California. These people are bigots. They are homophobes. It isn't racism...its the truth...and the truth hurts.

[readmoreoften]

1. Great realistic post. I forgot about "false outrage."

God, I wish my outrage were false. I'd accomplish so much more... sigh.

[QC]

8. I believe the preferred term at the time was "poutrage."

How very twee!

[WillParkinson]

2. Excellent...

Thank you.

[crappyjazz]

3. Thank you

Perhaps that is what is happening here after all. The truth hurts.

I've realized how much many people here want us to shut up and not point out any of this. They want to use news reports of racist remarks and comments to paint us all with that same brush and decry that we are doing the same to African Americans.

I feel like I'm in Rethug land, where up is down and ... well if I say the rest I'm sure someone will have a fit about that too.

[chimpymustgo]

4. JEEZUS CHRIST!!! STOP!!!!!!!!!!!

[jonnyblitz]

7. awww, is the TRUTH getting on your nerves???

poor you.

[QC]

9. And here comes Exhibit A. n/t

[crappyjazz]

11. lol caps

hilarious .. I hear Alanis singing somewhere

[mondo joe]

41. Thanks for proving the OP's point.

[Zhade]

70. For you... NEVER.

Don't like it? Get the fuck out of the threads you keep clicking on and go elsewhere.

We.

Are.

NOT.

Going.

Away.

[Gman]

5. I have long thought that

anti-gay sentiment runs much stronger in the ethnic/minority communities than it does in the average white community. I've gotten into a few discussions with Blacks that are great Democrats but are staunchly anti-gay. This is primarily for religious reasons. The Hispanic community is very anti-gay because of the pervasive "macho" attitude. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's the way it is.

Unfortunately, the emergence of minorities as a voting blocks that makes the difference for Democrats does not mean they will provide momentum for gays.

[IndianaJones]

6. My experience with Asians is that they won't even acknowledge its existence....

in their country of origin.

[renie408]

10. Hold the phone...'most white people are racist'... you do know what 'irony' is, right? n/t

[IndianaJones]

14. that is my own feeling. usually racist white people get mad first. nt.

[Quantess]

56. That's kind of a racist thing to say.

[bluedawg12]

15. Why don't you tell us? n.t

[jonnyblitz]

21. I run into white racists all the time who don't mind telling me

what they think. they assume because I am white and there are no minorities around I won't mind. and i live in very blue New England.

[readmoreoften]

23. You are accusing him of stereotyping, not racism. Racism is systemic & caused by the dominant group.

And I'd agree, most white people are racist. Personally I wouldn't put it at 99% but I'd definitely put it at 75% minimum. And by the way, I'm white.

[bluedawg12]

12. Homophobia is pervasive every group rises above 50%

This is timely as it has been only four day since the Prop 8 hate vote passed.

When, if not now, should we be discussing it?

How about a little help and some suggestions from each group as to how best to combat homophobia?

[cali]

18. Every group? What groups are you referring to?

[bluedawg12]

50. The demographics that broke for Prop8

Every single demographic that voted more than 50% for Prop8.

There were the funders, and we know who they are.

Then, there were the complicite.

Like these folks too.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage5-2008nov05,0,1545381.story


Bob Knoke, of Mission Viejo, Amanda Stanfield, of Monrovia, Jim Domen, of Yorba Linda, and J.D. Gaddis, of Yorba Linda, celebrate returns for Proposition 8 at an Irvine hotel.

[QC]

13. Yes, that is the usual way DU deals with gay issues.

Mockery, lots of shouting, etc.

It's a peculiarity of this community that homophobia has always been far more acceptable here than on other forums. Things got much more overtly hostile last fall, though, with the McClurkin fiasco, which is the worst I have ever seen it.

[HamdenRice]

16. No, there's a pattern of shouting down racists. "Let's vote on slavery" posts

and posts saying "Blacks are now the enemy" are likely to get that reaction. Posts that spew filth about the entire African community being sexually dysfunctional because of this vote are likely to get that reaction too. So are posts that say African Americans are stupid, brainwashed sheep who are unable to think and instead are being led around by their bigoted "fundamentalist" pastors.

Perhaps you missed some of those.

[IndianaJones]

19. so you are arguing that rational thought has led to large percentages of homophobes? nt

[jpgray]

25. It didn't lead to this thread of yours.

While playing demographic pocket pool is fun, it leads nowhere. It's not as though Asians become bigoted one way and blacks become bigoted in another. The human road to bigotry is universal--it does not depend on ethnicity or any other specific demographic trait. Religion, like patriotism or any other aspect of tribalism, is a tool of authority, of social solidarity. In the hands of a leader like MLK, Gandhi, etc., it can promote peace, tolerance and justice. In other hands, it can promote the most hateful bigotry imaginable.

Focusing on the demographics and ignoring the preachers of the hate is the biggest fucking waste of time imaginable. Focusing on the leaders who exploit ignorance to whip up hate seems to me a better occupation than descrying the exact racial makeup of specific bigotries.

[IndianaJones]

27. what happened with white people then? lmao. nt.

[jpgray]

29. Right. No tribalism among whites. No religion either.

It's a human condition. Do you need me to tell you that -all- the races operate this way? Seriously dude, fuck your pie charts and miscegenation indexes and get to the root of the problem already. But no, seriously--at what % rate are Asians more or less bigoted than blacks? Let's solve this fucker.

:crazy:

[IndianaJones]

32. I know the solution to the racism - whites as a minority. The homophobia? Don't know. nt.

[jpgray]

36. Racism between non-whites, of course, does not exist

Don't give me that weak shit. Tribalism is everywhere. It's in the Catholic church when they preach against gays, it's in Kenya, where Obama's dad or any other member of his tribe wouldn't get elected dogcatcher. It's in Japan when racists there bitch about the Koreans next door. Anywhere social solidarity is used as a tool to inflame ignorance to hate, that's what's at work. Call it religion, call it ethnocentrism, call it nationalism, patriotism, whatever--all it needs is an edifice of authority and leaders who will abuse it for their own ends. Those ends can be good and just, or nasty and bigoted. In the latter case the main fault lies with those leaders, and a smaller part lies with their gullible followers. The edifice of authority can be any fucking thing imaginable, so long as people believe in it.

[Egnever]

71. just one thing

:applause: :yourock: :applause:

[readmoreoften]

24. Wow I'd love a link to those "blacks are now the enemy" posts.

Missed those. As well as "the entire AA community is sexually dysfunctional". Missed that one too. I'd love to see the links. I'd alert on them myself.

[QC]

31. Yeah, I keep hearing about those posts, but haven't seen them.

They are, I think, the DU equivalent of that urban legend of the guy waking up with a kidney gone: everybody knows somebody who knows somebody who has seen those threads, but no one has seen them personally.

[kenny blankenship]

34. There was one poster who did that

or who may be interpreted to have said that.
Iirc, the formula this poster used was, in different words, "blacks have declared their stance on Prop 8, Prop 8 singles me out as an officially second class of citizen who can be legally discriminated against, anyone who takes my rights away is my enemy, therefore blacks have signed on as my enemy."
He or she was very categorical.
He or she said "blacks", not some blacks, not some religiously propagandized blacks, not "in California, on Nov. 4th, an estimated 70% of blacks turning out to the polls" voted this way.

Just "blacks"

The poster is either stupid, blinded by rage, or criminally irresponsible with their language

I would say that poster's tone in other posts was causing most other people to have nothing to do with him or her already. Which may explain why lots of people don't recall seeing the poster say what they said. One earlier post by the same person pretty much declared hostility to the Democratic Party as a whole, if I'm not mistaken.

[baby_mouse]

35. I missed all of them. Could you point me to them?

[Mari333]

17. It has to be called out over and over again

Back before inter racial marriage was made legal, a majority of citizens were against it. Even after it was made legal, a majority of US citizens were against it. In time, that has changed, and now a majority are for it.
Thats why mob mentality and laws like Prop 8 cannot be the deciding factor in civil rights issues.
When people are basking in the election of Obama, they sometimes forget, I think, that a large number of people were forgotten by the American dream on that day.
I call them 'cafeteria christians', who use the bible to pick and choose what passages will accomodate their bigotry that day.
I could pick and choose all kinds of passages out of the bible and point fingers right back at them.
My daughter in law is from the Phillipines, and she tells me her mom is overtly racist against blacks. Go figure. and doesnt like gay folks either. All the infighting makes my head spin.
Racism is ludicrous, however. If anyone with half a brain would check their mitochndrial dna history they would find out that every human being on earth originally come from a few clan mothers in Africa.

[curse of greyface]

20. I don't think one can compare the snikers ad to this.

You can feel the snikers ad was much ado about nothing or actually funny and not be a homophobe. You cannot wvote for Prop 8 and not have hate in your heart

[IndianaJones]

22. huh? nt.

[curse of greyface]

38. I'm saying that prop 8 was a true litmus test for ones humanity toward their fellow man.

To many times people grasp unto a "controversy" as a way to tell if someone is a homophobe or a racist or a freeper.

But most real life issues have shades of grey that make such pronouncements dicey.

Prop 8 was very black and white. You either favored rights for people or you didn't.

[baby_mouse]

48. I agree. NT

[Zhade]

72. Wanting to hurt yourself instead of being gay is FUNNY? Really?

Think hard on that one.

[curse of greyface]

79. Well your assuming I actually remember the fucking ad. (I don't)

My point is issues "Like that" are often filled with grey areas.

I'll give you a better example. I am against kindergartners signing pledges to be GLBT allies. This could be construed as an anti-gay stance by some. But it isn't I would be against kindergartners signing a pledge to stop global warming or help a homeless person etc.

It's the pledges themselves for that age group I disagree with not the nature of said pledge.

Prop 8 had no grey area to speak of.

Your either for it or against it.

[Chovexani]

26. You're a decent guy IJ.

:hug:

[leftofthedial]

28. really?

I hadn't noticed any silent gays here.

:shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

30. thats because the ATTEMPT'S to silence us don't work!

:D

[JVS]

33. McClurkin, eh? Let's just say that when he was constantly brought up, yet comparative DOMA...

stances were ignored, people became suspicious of the motives of those who would constantly bring him up.

edited to add a missing word

[TCJ70]

37. "I think most white people are racists."

You think wrong.

[MellowDem]

39. You think most whites are racists?

Well, I think most Asians are racists then, in fact, in far larger percentages than whites. Good thing they're a minority and not the majority, eh? Whites in California, overall, voted AGAINST prop. 8. According to your one-track mind, that makes Asians, Hispanics, and African-Americans all bigger homophobes than whites. Hell, that makes whites the most progressive group out there. I guess all those other minorities must have HUGE percentages of racists and homophobes.

What's wrong with your OP, and what is sad really, is that you have to back up the facts about the way African-Americans or Asians vote with outlandish accusations of "white racism", just to show your "non-racist" credentials. Well guess what, it only makes you look pathetic and contradicts the whole point of your OP. "You can check my posting history. I call out white people all the time." Oh, goodie! You're OK in my book then. See what is wrong with this picture? See how one has to prove oneself when talking about facts? It's sad and non-progressive to the extreme.

I also like your "I expect white people to vote for it in large numbers... minorities should know better." Oh really? And why is that? Could it be because you have already stereotyped and pigeonholed whites and minorities? No, that can't be it at all!

Let's drop the hyper-sensitive childish race bullshit and have a rational discussion about facts. Why do certain groups that vote heavily Democratic also support prop. 8? It's a good question to ask of all of the Democratic base. Whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, you name it. It's good to discuss why they vote that way. We can change the minds of those who are already for the most part with us on the issues a lot faster than those of the traditional conservative base, though we should work on the too.

[IndianaJones]

40. thanks for the kick. nt.

[Forkboy]

45. Thanks for showing that actual discussion was never your intent.

[baby_mouse]

42. Thank you for posting this.

[justiceischeap]

46. As a lesbian I could turn around and ask

Why do 50+% of the Straight people in California have against me? As a white person I could ask why minority groups cling so tightly to religion, which in turn hates me (or the sin depending on which religion we're talking about). As a woman I could ask, what do the men of California have against me. The problem with the race discussion is this, we don't need more division over this. Gay folks have a hard enough time being accepted and then some in our community turn around and blame a specific group of people for Prop 8 passing (maybe... not all of the ballots have been counted yet). I'd suggest those folks purchase the book, "How to win friends and influence people" because pointing fingers and shouting "racist" doesn't get it done.

The minorities that voted for Prop 8 aren't racist, they're bigoted... same as the white folks that voted for it. But mostly I think they voted for it out of fear and THAT is the gay communities fault (and our straight supporters). The gay community doesn't seem to be doing well in educating people who don't understand what it is we need, what it is we're working toward. To us it seems simple but to others, especially when they see TV ads saying their children will be "indoctrinated," the issue is much more complex. Until the Yes folks started playing ads that targeted children and schools, No was winning handily in CA.

[bluedawg12]

49. thecorrection - It's exactly about the future.

Prop 8 is dead and gone. It's over.

Now where do we go from here?

You are correct, anti-Prop 8 was ahead until they pulled they gay baiting fear card."Our kids...the schools..the horror."

The proponents who pushed Prop8, and we know who they are, didn't educate people they played on fear issues.

They won people over exactly by playing on homophobia and not by education. Bigotry is more a gut feeling than rational. It is reinforced by churches.

So, when we speak about going back out there and educating people, we need help.

That means we need to look at where the problems lay and work on them.

I will work on pro-gay issues where I can. That would be among white people and white churches.

But, that still doesn't address the AA community. If however, saying that bigotry exists towards gays in the AA community means that I am racist, that is essentially saying " Forget you, we have no problem. There is nothing to work on. Go away."

That's why this keeps boiling to the surface, because we are not hearing any explanation for the disproportionate vote against a gay rights issue, nor are we hearing much about going back into their own communities and working for change from AA DU'ers, we just get called racist.

That's denial and enabling.

This letter says a lot.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,5044196.story
By Jasmyne A. Cannick
November 8, 2008

..........
We can only go back to our own communities for education. We need help as GLBT and I see a lot of resistence. Like I said, Prop 8 is over, this now about the future. Sen. Obama came to the GLBT community and asked for help. We gave it.

http://www.washingtonblade.com/2008/10-17/news/national/13443.cfm
Obama seeks gay help in battleground states
Democrat is competitive in unlikely places
........
Gays came out for Obama and voted in force. We came through.

http://www.windycitytimes.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=19735
..

Now that Prop 8 is over and we are getting an understanding of how the vote went, it is clear that there is work to be done:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hZmLBrL36NObNyMR0ghX...
Calif. win emboldens coalition of religious groups
......

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gayblack8-2008n...
Gays, blacks divided on Proposition 8
For many African Americans, it's not a civil rights issue.
........

[justiceischeap]

51. I think there's a difference between being a racist and pointing out who the gay community

needs to reach out to. It doesn't help the gay community when black gays show up in LA to protest along with white gays and they're called n-ggers. I totally agree we need to ask the questions that help us understand the disconnect between the two communities but we also need to ask why straight, white people voted for Prop 8 too and we need to ask in a way that doesn't automatically make who we're asking despise us.

People on DU are wrong for saying anyone who asks about the division is racist but I don't think people are wrong when they point out that singling out black voters can be construed as racist. I've seen posters here do that... "It's the African-American's fault we lost." Well, no, it's not. It's everyone who voted yes on 8 who is to blame IMO. Did that make sense?

[LeftCoast]

57. I'm sorry, but their fear (ie phobia) is not our fault

No way.

[Forkboy]

43. Your OP proves you wrong. How have you been silenced?

[treestar]

47. Exactly

This should not be allowed to create division so soon after the election. All who voted for Prop 8 are responsible, regardless of race.

[Bluebear]

53. Here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4416734&mesg_id=4416734

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4415736&mesg_id=4415736

[QC]

62. Don't forget this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4418393&mesg_id=4418393

[Forkboy]

83. But that hasn't silenced anyone.

It's a couple of idiots wishing you would shut up. That doesn't mean anyone has to actually listen. No one on DU has been silenced on this topic, unless they choose to silence themselves.

Let me make it clear, I'm not supporting the view expressed in your links. I just don't see anyone, gay community or otherwise, being silenced here on DU. One look around is all it takes to see numerous threads and opinions on this topic. So, as I asked the OP here, how is that being silenced? The suggestion to be quiet is just that, a suggestion. Not an order.

[spoony]

84. Yeah just looking around I'd have to say

if there's some effort to silence anyone, it isn't working anyway.

[bluedawg12]

44. Ummm...gay white racists? Call 'em out for this dammit!

http://www.windycitytimes.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=19735

Data available thus far on voting in heavily gay precincts suggest the gay vote for Obama was at an unprecedented high. In the last several presidential elections, the percentage of LGB voters supporting the Democrat has hovered around 70 to 75 percent. But Election Day voting was much stronger:

—In heavily gay Provincetown, Mass., 87 percent of voters supported Obama, compared to only 11 percent for McCain, and 2 percent for others or no votes. Massachusetts overall voted 62 percent for Obama, and 36 percent for McCain.

—While 61 percent of Californians supported Obama over 37 percent for McCain, 85 percent of heavily gay San Francisco supported Obama—versus 13 percent for McCain and two percent for others.

—Fifty-five percent of voters in Pennsylvania supported Obama over 45 percent for McCain, but in Philadelphia's heavily gay 2nd and 5th wards, 83 percent of voters supported Obama.

—In heavily gay Dupont Circle ( Precinct 15 ) in Washington, D.C., Obama won 89 percent of the vote.

—In the heavily gay precinct 1233 in Dallas, 63 percent of voters supported Obama, while 57 percent of the entire city did so. Fifty-five percent of the state supported McCain.

—Chicago's heavily gay 44th Ward went 86 percent for Obama over 13 percent for McCain.

A Harris poll online survey conducted Oct. 20-27 with 231 self-identified LGBT “likely voters” predicted 81 percent of LGBT voters favored Obama while 16 percent favored McCain. A similar poll in August had shown 68 percent favored Obama, with 10 percent leaning toward McCain.

Patrick Sammon—president of Log Cabin Republicans, a national gay Republican group—said he puts more trust in data from the overall exit poll data nationally, which said once again that 4 percent of voters were GLB and that 70 percent voted for Obama and 27 percent for McCain, with 3 percent for others.

“LGBT voters don't live in just Dupont Circle and Chelsea,” said Sammon in a telephone interview Nov. 5.

But U.S. Rep. Tammy Baldwin, D-Wis., said both sets of data may be right. The results from precincts that are heavily gay, she said, reflect a demographic that has significant access to information about each candidate's stand on LGBT issues, while the national exit poll is capturing LGB voters in places that may not have that kind of information at the ready. And in those places, she said, LGBT people are “making their minds up on a larger array of issues.”

[Bluebear]

52. Kamsamnida.

[ruggerson]

54. Recommended

[enigmatic]

55. K&R

I'm with you on this.

[LeftCoast]

58. Thank you IJ

:thumbsup:

[KoKo]

59. What a crock of shit you are spewing. "Most whites are racist."

How many more disgusting posts are you going to get away with. Really pushing the envelope and full of it, aren't you. Sheesh!

[StreetKnowledge]

60. Look, lord knows we all agree with you.

But how many god damn times are we gonna hear this bloody speech?!

[Bluebear]

61. Wow.

[QC]

63. Kinda proves the OP's point. n/t

[Bluebear]

65. The poster is bored with hearing the same "bloody speech", so let's all shut up now

:crazy:

[QC]

66. Well, after all, he's been here a whole month. If that doesn't give him the right to run the place

then what possibly could.

I guess we just need to sit down and shut up.

[Bluebear]

67. I'm still giggling...

about the prospect of playing "Mystery Date" with Waxman showing up behind the door

[QC]

69. He's so dreeeeeeamy!!!

I wonder what's his favorite color! :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Bluebear]

73. Skree!!!~~~~~

What color should Michelle's inaugural gown be?

Check one.

Jewel tones

Blue of course

Orange

Black

White

Other

[QC]

75. Mauve!

And they should get a bichon frise and name it Fifi.

[IndianaJones]

78. what are you guys talking about? nt.

[Bluebear]

80. Folks complaining about prop 8 threads

But they have no problem discussing Michelle's dresses or the choice of White House dog. You know, really pertinent civil rights issues.

[IndianaJones]

81. oh. yeah...they should get a bichon frise. nt.

[Greyhound]

64. Yes there is, along with women & anybody

that says anything against the actions of the Israelis.
:kick: & R

[Zhade]

68. OMG SNICKERS.

I was just thinking about that the other day!

Great post.

EDIT: except for the "most whites are racist' thing, which I missed at first.

[Touchdown]

74. Funny thing about Asians. Koreans are one thing...

But The Japanese historically haven't had any problems with homosexuality. It was, and still is just an accepted aspect of human behavior. Likewise in Thailand.

Perhaps it's Buddhism or Shinto rather than Korea's Catholicism that makes the difference. S. Koreans also circumcise their babies (largely due to the American military's presence and influence), no other asian country does this on a regular basis.

Although I get your point about groups of people, it would be wise to not see all Asians in the same way.

[IndianaJones]

77. check this book for some personal experiences of gays in Japan...

it is neither socially or legally acceptable there to be gay.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1892281007/pageturners0c

[Contrary1]

76. I am sorry for those who are hurt by this.

I have no Gay friends, Straight friends, White friends, Black friends, Asian friends, Hispanic friends, Christian friends, Jewish friends, Muslim friends, etc...

I have friends.

And it bothers me greatly that my friends are discriminated against...for any reason.

I am with all of you. :grouphug:

[Skittles]

82. I hear you, IndianaJones

yes I do