We have a big problem here with people calling out black people

[CreekDog]

and it's got to stop.

people from all races, religions and backgrounds voted for Prop. 8 --anyone upset about the result of this civil rights issue is on thin ice when they single out ONE racial group of people for criticism for something that has been done by people from all groups.

i think anyone who engages in this sort of thing should be gone-d from here.

[chimpymustgo]

1. Word. It's scapegoating. And racist.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. It's Not Scapegoating Nor Racist. Nice Try Though.

[kwassa]

136. Yes, it is scapegoating and racist. You fail.

[cherokeeprogressive]

221. Without facts to back up your most informative post, YOU FAIL.

So you can just jump up and without anything whatsoever to back up your opinion, say that anyone is being scapegoated, OR that your percieved scapegoating is racist?

Without so much as a fucking word beyond the subject line?


Pfffft.

[kwassa]

235. I'm emulating the post I was responding to.

Or did you fail to notice that? I was talking to a specific person.

[Raineyb]

251. Here's something you might want to read before going on another blame black people tear

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

Any post blaming black people: Fail

It's scapegoating racist bullshit. But you really don't need the article to tell you that.

Regards

[LostinVA]

264. No, OMC is right -- only one thread has been like that, and it was locked

[CreekDog]

280. don't just count threads, look at replies too

and there was more than one thread, the one you refer to was for me the final straw when i thought i had to say something.

being the victim of a vote is NOT an excuse or justification to call out a race or group with similar intrinsic qualities (disabled, minorities, etc.) for criticism because then you are not simply criticizing behavior, you are associating behavior with race (in this case). that's race-baiting, it's no better than saying as some do, a certain race is responsible for the crime and drugs in America. ever heard that one? what we heard here yesterday was no better.

if you can defend Hillary from criticism as you did frequently, you can defend black folks by saying, "no they are not as a group responsible for bigotry". you really can and you really should.

[Breeze54]

158. Oh yes it is... have you lost your moral compass?

:wtf:

[slampoet]

226. What ever you say master.

Any other pronouncements? Maybe a signing statement?

[newtothegame]

248. No it is...

because then they'll keep you from saying what's on your mind. That's the sweet state of politics in this country, where you can shut down someone else's opinions by simply crying "Racist!"

[CreekDog]

281. well what should you shout in response to racism?

:shrug:

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. SEVEN in TEN blacks voted FOR. That's homophobic and bigoted. It's not racist to say that it is.

It's just being truthful, unless you can find some OTHER reason than homophobia and/or bigotry to explain the fact that SEVEN in TEN voting blacks voted YES.

[IsItJustMe]

116. What about the 3 out of 10 that did not vote for it? Stereotyping is always bull shit.

[cherokeeprogressive]

215. You classify the THREE in any way you want, and I'll classify the SEVEN in any way I want.

That doesn't make you or me wrong. I guess homophobic bigotry is in the eye of the beholder.

[EFerrari]

312. Right and when you single out the 7% of yes voters and ignore the other 93%

then you're illustrating how bigotry works.

[struggle4progress]

129. It's a bullshit statistic from a bullshit poll

[readmoreoften]

157. Oh, so now exit polls are bullshit. Rightttt.

[struggle4progress]

178. Gimme a link & I'll tell you why it's a crap poll

[cherokeeprogressive]

217. BETTER YET: Name a poll you think is crap.

?

[struggle4progress]

249. You claim SEVEN in TEN supported 8. The only poll I've seen with that figure is crap

It's your figure. Go find a link to the poll.

[cherokeeprogressive]

260. Otay.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1

I tried Time mag. but it only points to the CNN info, as linked above. Call this bullshit if you like. Then point me to a poll that states other results?

[struggle4progress]

267. Here is my remark on that poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x88438

[cherokeeprogressive]

271. I concede. Is there any accurate exit poll?

[struggle4progress]

274. I couldn't tell you. I've only seen that one poll

[cherokeeprogressive]

216. What bullshit poll are you citing? Link?

[struggle4progress]

250. You claim SEVEN in TEN supported 8. That figure comes from a bullshit poll

[CreekDog]

142. and we are sooooo lucky that only 5 in 10 white folks voted that way

:eyes: :sarcasm:

i mean, that is JUST...SO...MUCH...BETTER! :banghead:

[cherokeeprogressive]

218. Less than. But nice try.

[CreekDog]

282. you are singling out one racial group as worse than another

stop it. it's wrong and furthermore, it does not change one vote.

[mzmolly]

166. THREE in TEN gays voted for McCain Palin, that's homophobic and bigoted.

That truth thing works both ways.

[cherokeeprogressive]

219. Then three in ten gays voted AGAINST their own best interest. Randi Rhodes would have a field day..

[Bluenorthwest]

319. No I'd say that set is greedy and racist

and I have no problem saying so. GLBT people who voted for McPalin are greedy bigots, like the rest of the McPalin voters. And everyone who voted yes on 8 is a bigot, and some were Democratic voters, and I have a rainbow colored bone to pick with each of those individuals.
Denial gets no one anywhere.

[newtothegame]

172. Very true...

Problem is so many DU'ers are so self-loathing over slavery a century and half ago that an AA being elected president in the face of no physical barriers is more important than ACTUAL PHYSICAL BARRIERS being put up against GLBT folk's FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS more and more EVERY DAY.

[CreekDog]

212. another extremely insensitive post minimizing racism against blacks

and suggesting that such intolerance is easier and less of a problem than it is for gays.

big fail.

frankly, i don't keep score among groups. intolerance, institutional discrimination is a travesty no matter the victim.

there is nothing achieved when you say things that suggest that it's easier for blacks than gays. frankly, there is no way to compare and you shouldn't be so presumptuous as to try.

[newtothegame]

247. Spot on. I'm way off. I should have said what you wanted me to say...

:sarcasm: Hugs and kisses :)

[CreekDog]

283. that would have been more helpful

there is no cause to call out a group by race for actions that were not based on one's racial group. don't call out blacks for criticism --nobody voted for or against 8 based on the color of their own skin. they voted based on what was in their heart or mind (and those organs are all the same color no matter the race).

[cherokeeprogressive]

220. Okay, I'll play! I love a good game! Seven in Ten persons out of GROUP X voted Yes.

Are they bigoted and homophobic? What the fuck would you say if seventy percent of whites voted YES? Would you say DON'T DENIGRATE THE WHITES, THEY'RE BEYOND REPROACH?

[plaintiff]

259. You can't expect to make sense to someone who finds racism in a peanut butter sandwich.

:eyes:

[CreekDog]

284. i don't find racism in a pb sandwich, but i do find it in posts that blame blacks as a group

for an election result.

[chimpymustgo]

324. But that was not the MAIN FACTOR of the passage. To claim it is, is RACIST SCAPEGOATING.

[mzmolly]

165. Agreed.

:(

[GreenFiles]

2. 70%

That was a real tough number to see.

I refuse to be on the down low...

[CreekDog]

4. you don't criticize people based on their racial group

if you do, you will set back glbt rights for decades.

it will backfire. learn a lesson about the civil rights movement.

[donco6]

19. You can examine their actions, however.

I mean, really, how are we supposed to figure out what happened by NOT talking about something?

I don't believe in blaming, but it's just head-in-the-sand thinking if we don't examine the data and figure out who voted which way.

[GreenFiles]

Thank you.

I am not blaming the black community, but I'd like to know why the 70% factor occurred. Open discussion my friend, not racism.

[CreekDog]

50. on an individual basis you can

sorry it seems to unfair that certain ways of talking about problems seem off limits.

[donco6]

76. Perhaps you have an example of these "certain ways".

Because I'm not seeing it.

[CreekDog]

84. like instead of saying "black people..."

start examining why people voted for Prop. 8 and how you are gonna change that. it could be they were told they were going to hell if they voted for it, well in that case, talking about their race is not only counterproductive but a colossal waste of time and distraction.

DO something constructive.

and yes, you must be sensitive about anything that can be construed as race baiting or racial stereotyping or scapegoating because we have a long history of some ugly race relations in this country.

[cherokeeprogressive]

223. NOW you're saying that SEVENTY PERCENT of a certain voting block are fundy christians?

Is RACE BAITING a worse thing than DENYING a certain group of Americans their FUCKING CIVIL RIGHTS?

Or is it just TALKING about it that irks you?

"DO something constructive". I DID SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE. I VOTED:

NO ON PROPOSITION H8TE!!!

[cherokeeprogressive]

222. Does that mean I CANNOT criticize a voting bloc? A voting block SHOULD back progressive ideals?

What if that voting bloc were WASP?

[CreekDog]

285. they aren't a voting "bloc" if they don't all vote together

70/30 is not a bloc.

and it's stupid anyway, you focus the attention on race when it should be focused on tolerance and civil rights.

[Tallison]

348. I agree with most of everything you say, but...

THAT is an ironic post.

[kevinbgoode]

6. Exactly. 70%. And directives coming from churches in that community.

Let's not pretend they didn't have the highest percentage of votes by far in any ethnic group to strip the rights away from other citizens.

Skin color is not a free pass to abrogate the constitutional rights of others.

[BoneDaddy]

10. Yeah let's let them split us

that is smart and let us react like little wounded children. Grow the fuck up. We are all in this together and if you let this split us up, then you have always been about YOU. This will take time, be patient.

[rateyes]

32. MLK, Jr. said "Justice delayed is justice denied." Read his book

"Why We Can't Wait." It applies to gays as well as Blacks and Hispanics. Telling the GLBT community to "wait" is the same as what blacks were told in the 1960s. Patience is not a virtue in fighting for one's civil rights.

[chimpymustgo]

83. MLK said "justice rides a slow horse." And "the arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice

Right will win in the end. Don't scapegoat black people for this loss.

[rateyes]

225. I'm not scapegoating black people. I am trying to understand

why any person in an abused minority would vote overwhelmingly to deny civil rights to any other person. I would like for someone who voted for prop 8 to explain that to me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

94. Did MLK speak out in favor of gay rights?

:shrug:

[donco6]

97. If gay rights = civil rights, then yes.

But then, you've played your hand face up.

[Freddie Stubbs]

149. Did he ever say that gay rights were civil rights?

:shrug:

[donco6]

163. It doesn't matter if he did or not.

If they are equivalent, they are equivalent. We know where you stand.

[dsc]

246. His wife, who he willed his legacy to, surely did

also MLK kept Bernard Rumpkin around well after his other aides said to ditch him and only did so when he was basicly forced too. It is very likely an MLK who lived into the 1970's would have equated gay rights with civil rights.

[Creideiki]

272. Rustin, dsc.

;)

[Ken Burch]

202. bogus question, Freddie. In the Sixties NOBODY outside the gay community

spoke out for gay rights.

He did try to protect Bayard Rustin, his main speechwriter, from homophobia though.

[Bluenorthwest]

320. What?

You mean to say King spoke words of teh gay!!!!! And Rustin was far more than just his speechwriter, he was a mentor and the man who taught him the techniques of passive resistance.

[Ken Burch]

204. It's a bogus question. There wasn't a gay rights movement in MLK's lifetime

The fact that MLK may not have spoken up about doesn't mean that discrimination against gays isn't as bad as discrimination against people of color.

You do accept that gays shouldn't be discriminated against, don't you Freddie?

[ruggerson]

310. HIS WIFE DID

The widow of Martin Luther King Jr. called gay marriage a civil rights issue, denouncing a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban it.
Constitutional amendments should be used to expand freedom, not restrict it, Coretta Scott King said Tuesday.

"Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union," she said. "A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-king-marriage_x.htm

[kevinbgoode]

39. Little wounded children?

Again - it wasn't US who SPLIT anyone up - it was the people who voted to remove those constitutional rights. And some of them are among us. You wanna tell me all about their legal pain and suffering. . .their marriage which is being forcibly annulled at the behest of someone else's church? Yes - let's coddle the perpetrators of this heinous act - and tell the gays to once again shut up and get under the bus and wait a few thousand years for their full citizenship. . .cuz we wouldn't want to "split" with those who voted away those rights.

[donco6]

48. Can you GET more patronizing?

All you left off was a pat on the head.

[defendandprotect]

70. ..but answer is education and fighting religious hatreds ....

THIS issue also impacts and divides the AA community ...

just as it was used to separate feminists long ago ....

ENLIGHTEN ... EDUCATE

Let's all try to work on this ...

How can we help-??

Homosexuals and people of color have a lot in common --

patriarchal oppression/exploitation and having to deliver themseves

to freedom with little or no help --

[stillcool]

154. and your cool with calling out...

an entire race because of one poll that you see in one state? Nah...that's not racist, is it?

[devilgrrl]

3. I agree and started a thread earlier - something smells bad!

eom

[Bippity Boo]

5. don't forget Mormons...

if the word "Mormons" was replaced with "Jews" on some of the post-election anti-Mormon threads on here, they'd have to rename this messageboard "Nazi Underground."

[freethought gal]

Oh Please

Calling people out on their stupidity is not prejudiced.

[Bippity Boo]

15. if you want to be a party of bashing people based on their religion, go for it

I thought we were trying to get past the hate. People are born into Mormonism every day. If you want to write them off and drive them away by lumping all of them together with the leadership of their church, I can't stop you.

[kevinbgoode]

29. That's rich. We should coddle the chosen, made-up "religious" beliefs

of a group which heavily financed and produced manipulative and deceptive ads for the exclusive purpose of removing the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS of another group of citizens.

[arthritisR_US]

99. I can't rap my head around the idea of people voting against Constitutional Rights of another, it

makes me ashamed of humanity. Clearly, critical thinking and obtaining the age of reason is beyond many.

[Duncan Grant]

195. Thank you for that.

:applause:

[donco6]

33. Mormons need to be held accountable to their church's teachings.

Pretty simple, really.

[Bippity Boo]

35. Well, I'll hold you responsible for Abu Graib, then.

You paid for Abu Graib with your taxes. You refused to reject your citizenship in the United States. By refusing to renounce your membership in a community which committed evil acts, you need to be "held responsible" and ridiculed, I suppose. And it would accomplish what, exactly?

[kevinbgoode]

52. Is that a chosen "religious" belief as well?

Didn't think so. Stop deflecting responsibility.

[donco6]

55. I am responsible.

I freely admit it. As are all citizens of the U.S. And you know what I did about it? I CHANGED THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT.

But instead of calling for change in the Mormon church, you're defending it. You claim that by holding them accountable for their actions, we are guilty of bigotry. That's just silly.

[SidDithers]

141. Good post...

:applause:

Sid

[Bippity Boo]

193. glad to meet the guy who changed the government

can you fix the melting icecaps next? kewl.

[donco6]

232. In the same measure that I'm guilty of Abu Ghraib - yes.

I changed the government. Just like any citizen.

Enjoy your stay.

[FirstTimeVoterAt37]

75. ALL churches should be held so accountable

And any other group or organization as well. Whoever the lead perpetrators are/were/whatever this time around, they are NOT alone. This goes way beyond a single religion or ethnic group. In my mind, this is a societal failing on a massive scale. Worse, it was an encouraged failing.

[kevinbgoode]

85. We are a minority who seems to be left to fight pretty much on our own.

It will happen - all in due time. The LDS has a long history of financing oppression of MANY groups in this country. We know what we are doing.

[donco6]

100. I think starting with the biggest donor is entirely fair.

This is a typical trick - expand the enemy list to such a gargantuan scale that it's impossible to decide where to start. Like schooling fish, you can't decide which one to snag.

Nah - the Mormons have chosen to make US enemies. I have no problem focusing solely on them.

[FirstTimeVoterAt37]

114. I can understand your position

Completely. But how many have chosen already to make us enemies? Just because the Mormons spearheaded this one, there aren't enough Mormons alone to make up that dispicable vote. Nor or there enough blacks, or latinos, or white folks, or polka dotted people.

Do I think the Mormons be held accountable? Fuck yes. Do I think they should they have their tax-exempt status revoked? A LONG time ago. I should know, because I was raised one and I have a fair idea how they operate, although I stopped going at twelve or so. What can I say, when we fall, we fall hard.

The only thing that concerns me is tunnel vision. That's all. The whole purpose of my post was to say don't stop there. The Mormons were not alone in this, they just made the most noise this time around.

[donco6]

126. No problem with that.

I grew up Catholic and became a fundy Christian in HS and through college. Certainly no love lost there.

[FirstTimeVoterAt37]

171. Yeah, I was raised a good little homophobe

If I knew then what I know now...

[donco6]

175. BTW, welcome to DU.

Sorry it had to be on such an . . . interesting thread.

Normally things are a lot better around here. This thing just has everyone in an uproar.

[FirstTimeVoterAt37]

189. Thanks much

I appreciate that. And there's been a LOT of swear words spoken around this house recently. Nobody over here is letting anybody off easy.

[defendandprotect]

81. We are not bashing based on religion ... but on religious hateds/enemies ...

and churches using tax-exenpt $$$$$ to force those hatreds on the whole of society ---

Mormons have a long history of exploitive/oppressive beliefs --

[defendandprotect]

82. and churches using tax-exempt $$$$$ to force those hatreds on the whole of society ---

[Raineyb]

252. Since when is it okay to call the entire black community stupid? n/t

REgards

[CreekDog]

286. never

[kevinbgoode]

9. Right...that's why over $15 million for the campaign was contributed

by members of the LDS. But we should just ignore that fact, right?

Just what part of the teachings of that faith would constitute such a directive?

[freethought gal]

16. Thank you for pointing that out

Or maybe pointing out these facts is religious persecution of some sort. I don't know.... :shrug:

[kevinbgoode]

20. Thank you. If a member of that "church" feels "persecuted" because

their victims want an explanation, then it ain't the gays with a problem.

[MountainLaurel]

68. Yeah that. n/t

[yardwork]

27. What if we replaced the word "Republicans" with the word "Mormons?"

Do you see how silly your argument is now?

[defendandprotect]

88. No...state is separated from CHURCH -- not "Republicans" ...!!!

and not glue makers or teachers, nor railroads ,,,

only CHURCH ...

try to get it ---!!

[smiley_glad_hands]

108. Sorry, but mormons are deranged. eom

[CreekDog]

151. see, there's where you cross a line

i mean there's where it's really obvious that you've really crossed a line.

you simply don't say "x group are all deranged"

[smiley_glad_hands]

177. Based off their belief system and dogma, they are deranged, again, sorry. eom

[cboy4]

228. You forgot to mention they're also hateful assholes. n/t

[LostinVA]

265. The Mormon religion is repulsively misogynistic, homophobic, and racist

First they ruined the BSA.

[Bluenorthwest]

325. Funny

seems to me the word 'mormons' could be easily interchanged with the word 'nazis' as they share in the organized persecution of those unlike themselves.
Sorry, Brigham, but those who come gunning for my family ought to expect me to return fire in kind. The Mormons and others organized themselves against people they don't like. Why do you defend such hate based actions?

[rateyes]

7. I agree with you. What I don't get is that the Democratic party has

been the party of anti-discrimination, and yet a lot of people who voted for Obama voted to discriminate. That's shameful, regardless of one's skin color. What I particularly don't understand is that a majority of some groups that have been traditionally discriminated against because of gender, or race voted to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. I don't get that.

[kevinbgoode]

12. Neither do I . And I don't think they should get any free pass to hide

from their actions, either.

[rateyes]

23. I don't understand how in this country a measure that proposes

a ban on civil rights could even be a constitutional one on which to vote. It should never have been allowed as a question. Disclaimer: I'm a straight, WASP male. And, I'm one of the first to stand up for every person's rights. Justice denied any group means justice doesn't exist for anyone.

[defendandprotect]

Isn't that completely ironic ..!!!

[donco6]

8. WTF?

We can't talk about data? We can't call out fucking MORMONS?

I call bullshit on that.

[freethought gal]

13. 70% not clear enough for some people?

70% out of a population of 10% Yeah, I'm gonna call that one out.

And a church that is NOT even part of the state funding the Prop? Yeah, I'm gonna throw a shit fit over that one too.

[CreekDog]

17. calling out black people? why don't you call out people that voted for Prop. 8

it's real simple, but maybe it's more fun for you to demonize the black people.

[donco6]

25. Who's demonizing?

It's just facing a fact and asking questions about why things are the way they are. Ignoring it is ridiculous.

[CreekDog]

30. what percentage of other races voted against it?

but you don't seem to care unless the number is 70%. if it's 45 or 55 or 60, you aren't bothering with that.

[donco6]

45. Well, I'd say 70% is a significant number.

And it raises questions, namely, How could a large number of people vote for a guy who has been delivering a message of equality and hope, and on the same ballot choose to deny that equality to another group of people? Isn't it a bit odd? Wouldn't you wonder what went wrong with the message to have resulted in such mixed signals?

Further, wouldn't you think that, with the proper information, that same group of people would be the most likely to "get it"? I have no animus toward blacks. I haven't posted ANYTHING that could be construed as blaming. But to insist that the issue not be discussed is just silly.

[onefreespiritedchick]

339. I would say most of the "supposed" 70% " voted

Based on their faith...Christian upbringing; as to what has been taught from the Bible. This is more complex than targeting a certain race/ or civil rights, but is one of religion and one's conviction.

[kevinbgoode]

60. Hispanics 53%. Whites were lower.

The one community which stood out among all the demographics (and, sadly, surprised even the models from the campaigns) was the Black community. The ad featuring the presidential candidate I VOTED FOR, using his statements against same-sex marriage, was used heavily in that community by proponents of that measure.

[CreekDog]

133. i think that all stands out actually

there is no glory in having almost half a group vote for something versus another group that votes 2/3 in favor.

get at the real cause, don't be distracted by the race --race is not the cause. if you want to stop this kind of result, focus on what makes people vote for these things (hint: not race!).

[orleans]

196. ok--i'm kinda getting what you are saying

but then we have to figure out what it *was* that provoked 2/3 of a group to vote against these civil rights for gays--a vote that was unequaled in number by other groups.

if you're taking race out of the equation--then what *did* provoke this particular group to vote 2/3 against another group? cultural influences? church influences? lack of education on the issue?

i think it was thom hartman who said (wed. or thurs.) that we obviously need to bring the black and hispanic communities up to speed on this issue in this 21st century.

you want to narrow it down farther than race? pinpoint the truer reasons other than simply basing it on race--fine. let's pinpoint it.

but to put together an education campaign for *everyone* would hardly be worth it if not *everyone* needed to be educated on this issue.

(or am i totally misunderstanding you and what you really mean to say is that people in general voted against gay rights because being gay is bad/wrong? you don't mean that--do you?)

[CreekDog]

211. it's finding the root cause thing like you describe and trying to change that

some of it is because many people believe being gay is wrong and luckily people who think that are becoming fewer and fewer. marriage is some sort of threshold issue because many who think they support gay rights think they can exclude marriage from those rights --but even that's changing.

as for religion, i don't know what you do about that. lots of churches teach this and people fear that they are tangling with God if they support or tolerate gay rights. the thing about those people is that you will never shame them into changing their minds because to them it's either listen to you or listen to God and you know how they are going to approach that.

friend of mine belongs to one of those churches but it's not something that church focuses on and that friend of mine has over time just come to the conclusion that some people are simply born gay and there's nothing they can do about it. he just accepts it and doesn't really judge them for it.

my point isn't that he's right or anything but what changed his mind was he realized people don't choose to be gay and second he had sympathy that they can't pretend to be anybody else and didn't think it was fair that they should have to try to be.

that sympathy and reality dawned on him after a period of time.

remember the civil rights movement was not accomplished just through righteous shaming (fair as that would have been) but the sympathy stirred when black people were viciously knocked down by crooked cops and firehoses for doing nothing but walking. people saw weakness and vulnerability and a critical number of them responded with sympathy and empathy and it changed things.

my two cents. :hi:

[kevinbgoode]

56. Demonizing my a*s. I'll demonize the 70% of that community for their vote.

It should be a source of embarassment for anyone. Why give that 70% a free pass because of their skin color? Are their churches exempt from their role and responsibility?

[kwassa]

109. I'm sure that will be a persuasive tactic in changing their minds.

what fucking useless action.

[readmoreoften]

152. When does kissing the asses of bigots ever change their mind?

I refuse to coddle those who say I'm a threat to their children, regardless of their race or religion. How have blacks, jews, and gays changed the minds of the Klan over the past 50 years? Answer: we didn't. We shamed them out of existence.

[Raineyb]

253. Out of existence? You think the Klan doesn't exist anymore?

:rofl:

That's the funniest shit I've heard. The Klan is still alive and well in 2008. They're just less visible. Your analogy is terrible and this blaming black people for the passing of Proposition 8 thing will be more effective in pushing black people away from your position than it will bringing anyone to your side. But hey if you think using not even thinly veiled racist language helps the cause go for it.

Regards

[arthritisR_US]

115. it was a blight on humanity and the common denominator was not race or class but

an inability for many to critically think through what they were in fact doing, i.e., denying others basic human rights.

[Bippity Boo]

22. According to you, it's okay to bash all Americans based on the actions of our leadership.

Not all Mormons agree with the actions of their leadership. You didn't renounce your citizenship in America when we committed war crimes in Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay. I guess you're just as evil as Bush, according to this logic.

[donco6]

28. That's obviously ridiculous.

The better question for YOU is why would you remain in a church that exercises such blatant bigotry?

[Bippity Boo]

31. I'm not a mormon.

I'm a person who REJECTS BIGOTRY. I thought that's what being a Democrat was about.

[donco6]

40. Rejecting Bigotry is not antithetical to demanding accountability.

When a church is teaching lies, it's foolish to believe that nothing can be said about it. You can assign a "bigot" title all you want, but choosing to ignore evil is no virtue.

[Bippity Boo]

46. I'm not saying you can't speak against the church.

Most of the Right Wing evangelicals despise and fear Mormons, too. Do you want to form a Mormon-hating alliance with them?

There have been threads (including this one) with people denouncing all Mormons. People are born into that church every day, and they don't get to vote on whether or not their leadership sponsors vile legislation like Measure 8. By spreading hate against all Mormons, rather than directing criticism against the political actions of their church, all that is being accomplished is hatemongering and divisiveness.

[donco6]

64. Any group that officially stands for bigotry, such as the LDS,

tarnishes all it's members. They have a choice to make at that point. They can speak out against the official stand; or they can leave the group. I don't see either of those things happening anywhere. Perhaps a link to "LDS Members Against Prop 8" would be helpful.

[defendandprotect]

95. Obviously, we're always talking about hierarchies in criticizing CHURCH

teachings of hatred, intolerence. oppression, exploitation ...

and they don't get to vote on whether or not their leadership sponsors vile legislation like Measure 8.

However, how do those who do understsnd the issue sit quietly in pews when this vileness is

preached---???

[mzmolly]

168. This thread is not about Mormons. Mormonism is a belief system

not a race.

[poetsdream]

11. I Agree!

By calling out blacks, we are doing exactly what the 'powers that be' want - to keep people divided against each other. This past election has shown that we may now have what it takes to get beyond that in-fighting. We will need to 'change our game' like Obama did and strategize on how we can bring about civil rights and fairness for all, and not get trapped in a blame-game, name-calling and in-fighting that only weakens us.

You only have to look at the McCain Pailin Campaign to see the devasting, nasty effect of backbiting and internal conflicts.

[kevinbgoode]

14. Right. That's why 70% of that group voted to divide the gay community

from their Constitution and DISSOLVE THEIR MARRIAGES. I think the division was done - but it wasn't done HERE.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kevinbgoode]

49. Really? A race baiting bigot? I'm not in that community in which

70% of the members voted to remove the constitutional rights of another minority. In fact, I don't think I've ever had a chance to "race bait" and prove it by voting on someone else's rights due to their skin color. That community voted a full 17% higher for that amendment than any other voting group of any other designation or category.

Now when you figure out how facts are somehow "racebaiting" maybe you can escape the denial and engage in a conversation about why those figures are FACT.

[CreekDog]

57. your group membership doesn't excuse you and their group membership does implicate them

that's a third of black folks that you are lumping in.

and you are making a racial issue when other groups voted in either majority or near majority for the very same thing.

it's screwed up that Prop. 8 passed, but it's not screwed up for racial reasons.

[kevinbgoode]

63. Right...that's why they keep statistics about voting patterns among ethnic groups.

If you can't handle the facts, it's just too bad. There was a concentrated campaign in the churches of that community, and the proponents of that measure used OBAMA's PUBLIC REMARKS against same-sex marriage in their ads directed at that community.

[CreekDog]

67. bye

until you examine your own statements and look at the prejudice that informs them, i'm done engaging with you.

you are no friend to anyone or any group's civil rights when you do that.

[kevinbgoode]

73. Ahem. So I can just imagine how you enjoy self-appointing yourself

the judge and jury for my thoughts, my oppression and my constitutional rights. You sound real oppressed.

[CreekDog]

78. i'm not self appointed anything, i'm judging the words you've used that everyone else can see

i don't even have to read anything into them to see the prejudice.

and i won't even go into my own personal story or the troubles of my particular group. i would prefer to think that my group and yours and black folks are in this together.

[defendandprotect]

98. Good reporting and logic -- and SHAME on Obama + Dems ....!!!

[foo_bar]

117. which community is that, Californian African-Americans who participate in exit polls?

In Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Iowa, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Tennessee and Texas the phone data are being blended with exit poll results, with the phone poll results weighted to represent the expected share of early vote in the electorate. <...>

In exit polling, sampling error also depends on how many poll sites have voters with the characteristic of interest. For example, black or high-income voters may be found clustered only in certain sample precincts. Sampling error may be up to three times larger for clustered characteristics.

http://surveys.ap.org/exitpolls/

"We <the Florida NAACP> voted to oppose Amendment 2. ... we do not support any attempt to write discrimination into our state constitution," Nweze said. "We oppose any legislative or ballot initiative that proposes to treat people differently based on their membership in a particular group. And it's consistent with what our organization has stood for throughout its 99 years."

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/9396.article

[yardwork]

18. The thread you are calling out was started by a black person.

Maybe you two could take this argument outside.

[CreekDog]

26. i am white and i know that (and it's irrelevant)

and that doesn't make it okay either.

[yardwork]

34. This is just a game to you, but to me it is my life.

[CreekDog]

43. oh you read my mind?

your anger is causing you to flail out in lots of directions and you are smearing entire groups of people and that's wrong and ultimately, it harms the glbt community because people will judge that community as harshly as you have judged the black community. that's wrong too, but you are engaging in the same type of behavior.

you are making a HUGE mistake.

[yardwork]

53. I only see one person "flailing out in lots of directions."

[readmoreoften]

156. How do you as a white person get to tell a black person that he is wrong for speaking

about his frustration with bigoted people in his community?

I call total bullshit.

[Toasterlad]

24. I Think We Have A BIGGER Problem With People Over-reacting to the Reaction

It is not racist to say that 70% of African Americans voted FOR Prop 8, a greater percentage of a single voting block than any other. Posting that does not mean that the poster is ignoring all the other groups (ethnic and otherwise), who also voted for Prop 8. Posting it does not mean that the poster is placing all the blame for the passing of Prop 8 on black people.

What posting it DOES do is highlight the out-of-proportion homophobia in the black community, which will never be addressed if jackasses keep saying it's racist to point it out.

[yardwork]

36. Thank you. Turns out this OP is neither black nor gay anyway. Just someone playing games.

I'm tired of being a football for idiots to kick around on bulletin boards.

[CreekDog]

44. i guess i'm not allowed to care unless i'm in a certain group?

i do happen to be in a discriminated against group. you don't know shit.

[kevinbgoode]

71. really? Did we vote to take away your constitutional rights?

Just asking. . .I mean, we have a new class of second-level citizen now. It's been made official by popular vote.

[CreekDog]

74. my group has fewer rights than yours

but comparing miseries is not gonna help either group, but in fact, divide them and harm people in all groups.

[donco6]

79. Oh, no, honey, you don't get to drop bombs like that and walk off.

If you're going to claim more oppression, it's put up or shut up.

[CreekDog]

90. no

if you don't want to believe me, that's fine, nobody has to. you brought up that "my group" or "me" for example doesn't sound so oppressed. well, woe is you. that's exactly the kind of discussion i don't think is helpful and i said why i don't think it's helpful because it divides those who have a cause together from each other.

[donco6]

91. Ugh.

Should have known from the get-go.

[CreekDog]

96. what would it solve if i told you?

please tell me what that would accomplish and i will consider bringing it to the discussion.

[readmoreoften]

160. WAIT. How do you know what GROUP another poster belongs to? And that gay people don't belong to it.

Just because someone is GAY doesn't mean she's not a WOMAN an ATHEIST and DISABLED and POOR. So what GROUP is it that you belong to--and we know you're white--that is so fucking oppressed that it has fewer rights than gay people AND its a group that gay people don't belong to.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

[CreekDog]

181. read upthread for the post that refers to second class status

that's all i was going by.

and if you read my messages, you will see that i believe it's pointless to even argue over which group has it worst --it's an impossible thing to judge and not helpful anyway.

it was a total distraction when he said, "you sound real oppressed" to me, which is why i responded as i did.

[Toasterlad]

80. If You Really Cared About Black People, You Wouldn't Be Trying to Sweep Their Problems Under the Rug

You'd be trying to address a fundamental issue that is tearing the community apart.

[CreekDog]

93. this is tearing groups and the whole of society apart

and i never said we shouldn't talk about gaining a greater understanding among all people, i said we need to not scapegoat or single out for criticism groups on the basis of inherent characteristics (i.e. "race").

that's all.

besides, being black is not what makes someone more likely to vote for Prop. 8 --it's something else and by focusing on the "being black" part you are missing the something else that is the key to changing that vote and worse you are impugning everyone in that group in the process.

and yes, our history of racial problems means that you can't just say whatever you feel like even if you can back it up. care needs to be taken, stereotypes and scapegoating must be avoided -even the appearance of such.

why? because we don't want to create new problems and new divisions that will make it the current one worse.

[Toasterlad]

140. Reading Comprehension Is Just a Dream For You, Isn't It?

Cheer up, CD. They'll find a cure for you one day.

[CreekDog]

143. yay!

that was helpful.

[defendandprotect]

101. True ... this issue harms AA community -- homophobia is a sickness --

[donco6]

106. As even several AAmericans have testified on this board. n/t

[defendandprotect]

138. You know ...

Going back 20 years or more ago re AIDS ...

In Brazil, doctors couldn't figure out how so many married

women had the HIV virus ...

Eventually, they discovered that many married men were bisexual or gay ...

The society, itself, had no awareness of this --

Very brainwashed Catholic country --!!

The doctors said they had had absolutely NO idea that so many Brazilian males

were homosexual -- 30% --!!

[CreekDog]

119. I see, so now it's a "black problem"

when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. :eyes:

[tnlefty]

120. I'm tired of witnessing your being a football, too...

my idiotic state passed this crap legislation in '06.

I realize that we're beyond backwards here, and it takes time, but dayuum, ENOUGH. :hug:

[readmoreoften]

161. Thank you. /nt

[Duncan Grant]

197. That was a moment of blessed fresh air.

Thank you, Toasterlad. :thumbsup:

[Psyop Samurai]

279. You got it !...

:thumbsup:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. There's Nothing Wrong Whatsoever With Bringing Up The Point That AA's Need Further Persuasion.

They were by far the largest group broken down by group ratio that voted for the proposition. There is obviously huge room for improvement within that group as it relates to the issue, and identifying large target groups that require the most persuasion is the most logical and strategical way to affect the change necessary.

70% of them voted for it. Almost every other group was around 50/50. To ignore that disparity is foolish. The whole goal in all of this is to get every single group to a limit of 49.99% for the proposition. Since AA's were the furthest away from that target, it would make sense to identify them as a big core group to start trying to impact. It doesn't mean they should be targeted with hate, but being aware of the large difference between yes and no numbers within that group and educating others on it, so that change can ultimately take place, is just common sense.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[curse of greyface]

155. You really need to reexamine your math skills. That 70% made the difference.

Whites only would have voted no on 8. It was the non-white vote that caused it to pass.

[EFerrari]

256. You need to go look at the vote totals, that's wrong.

More than twice as many white votes against than Latino and black votes COMBINED.

[CreekDog]

287. you really need to stop blaming blacks

period.

you are in post after post, in this thread and others just out and out blaming blacks for passing this thing.

you shouldn't be here at all. if you want to be racist, go over to FR. if you can't imagine anything you've done to earn that title, then you are not reading your own posts.

[yardwork]

41. You know, if you are neither black nor gay, maybe you should listen instead of shouting at people.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

162. Right, and how is she attacking black people by supporting a black man's post about homophobia in

the black community?

[curse of greyface]

42. Nobody is scapegoating the blacks from what I have seen

They are scapegoating the Mormans... (While conveniently ignoring the 600 pound Roman Catholic in the room.)

Now I don't necessarily believe the exit polling. A strong case can be made that the sample size of African American voters was to small. And if the median age of this small sample was older than the median age of the entire sample it would skew the yes numbers significantly.

That said most "defenders" of the African American community on the associate thread use ridiculously bad logic and even worse math skills to explain away the 70% number.

I have been reading polls for a long time, but even a high school math student will tell you that the African American numbers moved the vote from no to yes.

If the exit polls are to be believed. My guess is that further polling will show these exit poll numbers to be an aberration and this was much ado about nothing. I hope this is the case.

But that doesn't excuse bad science and bad math.

[yardwork]

51. Thank you for making several very important points.

1. Nobody is scapegoating anybody. This OP is a hysterical overreaction and, I suspect, somebody just playing games with an issue that deeply affects a lot of people.

2. We're basing the 70% figure on exit polls that might not be reliable for a variety of reasons.

3. It's not just the Mormons that funded this campaign. A whole bunch of other denominations helped. We need to go after all of them for tax violations, not just the Mormons. On the other hand, the Mormons appear to have funded the greatest share (back to the 70% issue again).

4. The hysteria surrounding the discussion of this issue is ridiculous and does indeed reveal poor math skills, poor understanding of scientific principles, and worst of all, extremely poor understanding and use of logic.

[curse of greyface]

72. Thank You nt

[kwassa]

130. You are scapegoating them right now.

"I have been reading polls for a long time, but even a high school math student will tell you that the African American numbers moved the vote from no to yes."

and you would be wrong, for multiple reasons. YOU select out the black vote as being the causal factor, that is both blatantly untrue and racist and mathematically false. The vote is an aggregate with each vote having equal value, and the small number of black votes in the total are no more important than any other group of votes, therefore not causal as you represent it. And 70% compared to 50% is more, but not a standalone figure that represents causality either.

So, what is wrong with my logic and math?

This endless attack on the black community is racism revealed.

[curse of greyface]

153. If you only include white voters No on 8 wins.

That is what is wrong with your logic and math. 70% compared to 47% and 51% is dramatically more.

The black vote self selected itself by being significantly higher than any other group.

This is the logic and math problem I noted above. As I also stated the exit polls may very well be inaccurate.

[kwassa]

233. To only include one group of voters is illogical in itself.

If you only select out any other group, No would also win there. Choosing black voters is arbitrary and racist group to pick, considering the low numbers among the voting population.

and the black group wasn't self-selected, individiual here selected it.

[NorthernSpy]

334. And if you only include the votes of white MEN, then Yes on 8 wins...

So go scapegoat yourself.

[redstate_democrat]

47. Anytime people single out one particular group when people from all groups

contributed tells me everything I need to know about them. They want someone to blame and they feel like black folks "owe them" since they voted for a black president. This is foulest shit ever. This is a blatant playing of the race card. What percentage of the vote is black in California? What percentage of that percent voted in favor? What percentage of teh vote his Hispanic? I'm sure it was more than the black vote. So even though only half of Hispanics voted for it, the actual vote total could be higher than the black vote total. What percentage of the voters are white? I'm sure it is much higher than the black vote in California. Even though only half of whites voted for it, the vote total is much higher than the black vote total. They just want someone to blame and blacks are the easiest targets with them. This shit is racist. "Oh we voted for Obama but blacks voted for Prop. 8" is a dumb ass statement to make and actual polarizes the issue. It does not bring people to their side. I would have personally voted against Prop 8 for the same reasons Obama opposed Prop 8, because I don't think a Constitution should be revised by direct vote. I don't think people should get to vote on issues that may affect people's rights.

However, the equal protection clause does not forbid unequal treatment by the government in all cases. Some rights can be limited in many cases. You can look at Roe v. Wade, and the due process clause for an example of that. If the government has a legitimate reason to discriminate in some way, then they are allowed to do so. The government discriminates in many ways every day.

However, I just don't think the government should abdicate policy making decisions to direct vote and majority rule. The government is set up to protect the minority. I highly doubt we would allow a direct vote on the rights of women and racial minorities. However, California is famous for their propositions. California was one of the first states to vote against Affirmative Action. I remember a proposition in California against educating children who were considered illegal aliens during the Clinton administration. California is the test ground for these things and they cause nothing but havoc.

[Barack_America]

54. I think the "No on 8" campaign was a pretty piss-poor campaign...

That was especially piss-poor in minority communities.

That was the gist of my OP from yesterday.

The progressive social agenda doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell without effective communication to combat the Right's lies and propaganda.

[yardwork]

58. So it's our fault that we didn't outspend the people taking away our rights?

How would you like to have to defend your rights every two years in an up-or-down popular vote, when hundreds of millions of dollars were spent on making you sound like a demon?

[Barack_America]

65. No. It's the fault of all progressives and Democrats.

Who, quite simply, left their GLBT brothers and sister out to dry when it came to Prop 8, either intentionally or through complacency. But, either way, it doesn't matter and it isn't excusable.

[defendandprotect]

104. THAT should be remembered ...

[JVS]

145. Actually, it seems that the No side had a bit more money

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_10889066?nclick_check=1

[Starry Messenger]

61. I totally agree and (caps lock warning)

WHY ARE WE NOT CALLING OUT THE REPUBLICANS WHO FUCKING VOTED FOR IT??? They are the party of so-called small government. Who convinced them to vote on this crap? That's a HUGE voting bloc. Reframe the argument. Don't let government in to define your family life!! Vote No on 8. Hello?

I'm so mad this didn't get done like this. Instead rich fucks funded this thing and branded it in the churches. And now they sit back and fucking laugh. Democrats and Republicans should be on the same page on this issue of non-interference in family life and personal rights. Instead they've turned it into a race war on the eve of our triumph. I'm so fucking pissed.

[yardwork]

62. I know. Sad, isn't it? The Republicans always get away with that hypocrisy.

[donco6]

69. Well, for one thing, you EXPECT a Republican to vote for it.

That's not the issue. The question is, Why would someone who voted for Obama, also vote in favor of Prop 8? What was the thought process going into that? How can their minds be changed? What were they told in order to create that choice?

[Starry Messenger]

86. But why?

Why should republicans vote for it? I guess that's what I was trying to say. We need to step back and say, voting to abridge the personal rights of others is anti-American. Let the Supremes rule on it and don't let outside special interest groups to fund influence on the ballots.

I think we could swing a larger group like that. What do you think?

[donco6]

111. Just the thought of trying to convince a Republican . . .

to support gay marriage makes me tired. I mean, those people think Sarah Palin is qualified to be President, fer Chrissakes. You're talking about Ground Zero reconstruction, my friend.

But Dems SHOULD know better, IMO. And if the Dems who voted for Obama had voted AGAINST Prop 8, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. So you've just got to start there.

[Starry Messenger]

137. Hmm. It makes me tired too.

That's why I was thinking we take it back a step to amend the process that gets these BS props on our ballots. We might get the Republicans on board by thinking of all the ways we are all harmed by human rights being voted on by a fickle electorate. Air taxes? Pay as you breathe? I'm throwing that out there. And I'm a Dem who voted against Prop 8 and for Obama. I also live in the nutty state in question and I'm not going to be happy until this stupid prop is overturned. I'm pissed.

Sure Dems should know better. But how many Dems just didn't vote out of complacency because we "always go blue" in CA. I had to kick the ass of a few of my Dem friends to vote because of this. And my Republican Dad almost voted Yes on 8 but forgot that his niece is a lesbian. When my mom reminded him he changed his vote. There are probably a lot of "duh" votes we could work on to counter the heavily over-funded brainwashed votes of the fundies. California Dems are a bit fat and sassy. We need to GOTV a lot better. That's my .02.

[defendandprotect]

122. Because they represent patriarcy which is underpinned by ...

organized patriarchal religiom ...

AND capitalism introduced by Vatican as successor to capitalism -- exploitive economics.

"Manifest Destiny" ... which is license to exploit nature, natural resources, animal life --

and even other himan beings according to various myths of inferiority.

THIS is why the GOP in '80 gave start up funds to "Christian Coalition" --

an effortbto rebound from 1960's attack on patriarchy.

Why can't patriarchy stand alone, you ask?

Think about it --!!

[jonnyblitz]

66. Bigoted minorities should NOT be excempt from criticism.

and FUCK YOU for implying otherwise. you are not helping anything, you are making it WORSE.

[stillcool]

159. You want to criticize..

an entire race because of one poll in one state? What is wrong with you? When you bring out your nooses, make sure you get that 50% of white folk too. Maybe you ought to look at the language of the initiative as it was written? I know that we had 3 initiatives on our ballot, and I had to read several times before I knew what a yes vote was. I knew how I wanted to vote, but the language was not clear. In any case that's not the point. Attacking an entire race is absolute bullshit.

[CreekDog]

173. then criticize their bigotry and don't associate bigotry with their race

[NorthernSpy]

335. Aw, tell it to all those gay clubs that continue to host blackface drag acts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Knipp

[gollygee]

77. Maybe it's different in Michigan

but among people I know, almost all black people go to church, and maybe half of white people go to church. And if those figures are about right in California, and this "yes on 8" group was working through churches, it stands to reason that a higher percentage of black people would vote yes than white people. Black church-goers got it from church and might very well have voted yes at the same rate as white church-goers. It is a church thing and not a race thing, IMO.

Also, there could have been a better PR campaign. It appears there was some misinformation put out by the Yes on 8 crowd that didn't get very well refuted.

[CreekDog]

110. i think you have nailed it

i have been thinking the same thing.

if anything, i think the level of support among black evangelicals was lower than for white evangelicals.

[petronius]

87. No, I really don't think we do. you can spin it as "calling out", but in truth,

we have a significant subset of our CA population in which a substantial majority voted for discrimination. It's right and reasonable to explore that, and such exploration is not scapegoating, singling-out, or blaming.

That said, as a white Californian myself, I'll leave the exploration to our black DUers and focus on the ~50% of my own subset that is in favor of bigotry... :puke:

[CreekDog]

102. that only works if you make the assumption that your race is the "causal factor" in that vote

i'll bet you its something else, race is merely incidental to it. focusing on the racial aspect of it is likely missing the real thing.

have you ever thought it might be the teaching that goes on in evangelical churches that leads to these types of votes? if you equalize for evangelical membership, then which racial group stands out? blacks won't have the highest number in that case.

the racial aspect is not the issue, it's the thinking behind it and all our brains are the same color.

find the real thing and talk to anybody, regardless of race, about solving it.

[Catherine Vincent]

89. What group brought forth this vote anyways?

Imo, that's who should be called out.

[ismnotwasm]

92. Amen

A big problem, and thank you for posting this

[ContinentalOp]

103. The real question is, what percentage of DEMOCRATS from each group voted for 8?

Are the 50% of white voters who voted "yes" on 8 all Democrats? Pretty fucking unlikely. How about those 70% of black voters though? :shrug:

[gollygee]

107. I think the quesiton is what percentage of active church-goers voted for it

Like if most white evangelical church-goers voted for it, and most black evangelical church-goers voted for it, you can pretty well figure it's a church thing. My area is pretty diverse so I know a good number of people of various ethnic groups, and most black people I know are very active in their churches. Maybe half the white people I know are? Maybe a little more than half. Anyway, it could be that 65% of white evangelicals voted for it, and 65% of black evangelicals voted for it.

If we want to find the way to get past this, we have to find out what the common denominator is.

[arthritisR_US]

123. that's the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. The common denominator is not

race or class but rather an inability to think critically and where does that come from? Religious talibanism seems to be rampant.

[ContinentalOp]

I don't know, I think there are a lot of young people who are homophobic but not religious.

But yeah, I guess I can't separate race, religion and politics. I guess I just stereotype people too much but I have a hard time imagining too many black Republicans or white evangelical Democrats in California. :shrug:

[gollygee]

146. I know white evangelicals who generally vote democratic

they for the most part split their tickets though - not hard core dems or anything. But I'm not in California so I don't know if it's different here. I definitely know white people who voted for Kerry AND voted for Michigan's "defense of marriage act" or whatever it was called though. And they were all pretty conservative in their religious beliefs.

Another thing - they'll vote for pro-choice candidates, but if an anti-abortion ballot measure or anything like that comes up, they vote anti-abortion. Even if they vote for a pro-choice candidate at the same time.

[defendandprotect]

147. The original teaching has religious basis --

like slavery --

racism --

genocide --

exploiting nature --

oppression of women --

oppression of Jews --

oppression of homosexuals --


Crusades based on "my god is better than yours" --introducing cross with he sword ---

[readmoreoften]

164. 36% of Democrats voted Yes on 8.

Explains a lot of the posts here.

[smiley_glad_hands]

105. You should give people time to vent. eom

[kwassa]

134. at the expense of whom?

An entire racial group?

[smiley_glad_hands]

180. They've been hurt, give them a break. eom

[Raineyb]

254. Not at the expense of a whole ethnic group.

That shit is not acceptable I don't give a damn why they're doing it.

Regards

[CreekDog]

289. so have black folks, why aren't you giving them a break on this?

:sarcasm:

see how bad that argument is?

[CreekDog]

170. vent, but not at specific races

give me a break.

[smiley_glad_hands]

179. Why don't you give them a break? eom

[CreekDog]

183. if they hurt others because they are hurt, they are no longer victims

they are perpetrators themselves.

people need to be responsible for their own statements and anger is not an excuse.

[smiley_glad_hands]

184. Oh please, enough with the feigned indignance. eom

[CreekDog]

186. it's not feigned

i hate that crap. you got a problem with people that voted for Prop 8, then criticize THEM. when you bring up their race, you suggest your problem is also with their race. and good luck getting them to listen to you after that (by the way).

[smiley_glad_hands]

190. Gay people are looking at the exit polls, I think they have a right to be upset with that community.

I still think you are feigning your indignance.

[CreekDog]

191. because only you have righteous indignation

i can't possibly be really angry at what i've been reading --i must be faking since nothing bad happened to me! :sarcasm:

[smiley_glad_hands]

194. For some reason, I don't think you are being sarcastic. eom

[CreekDog]

290. i don't know why you bother talking to me since you don't believe i mean anything i say anyway

:hi:

[specimenfred1984]

113. OK school marm, got any other orders?

I'm going to require candy now.

[CreekDog]

169. nope, I haven't thought of any new ones yet

:shrug:

[Duncan Grant]

121. The dirty little secret is out. There is no party unity regarding gay civil rights.

Democrats were a part of the electorate that voted to remove state sanctioned rights from gay Americans. It was an act of profound cruelty and evil.

We should all be ashamed that the legacy of hope and change resulted in the disenfranchisement and punishment of gay people.

Or would you rather get back to some celebration about how wonderful we all are?

[arthritisR_US]

125. yep, and our hypocrisy is revolting. n/t

[defendandprotect]

128. ????

What event are you discussing --
forgive my ignorance here --

Obama + leaders should be ashamed -- I'm shocked!!

Nor is there unniity on women's rights ...

[CreekDog]

167. my post criticized the racial characterizations of that vote

it did not suggest that nothing bad happened on Tuesday with that vote.

[Duncan Grant]

176. And I contend that there's nothing wrong with an objective look at how Blacks or Latinos voted.

There's nothing wrong with comparing and contrasting how all traditional Democratic constituencies voted on Prop 8.

If the 70% and 60% figures showing support for a "Yes on 8" vote embarrasses some people - so what? Something profound and disturbing has happened. Let's deal with things as they are and not as we wish them to be. Agreed?

[CreekDog]

185. why should someone who is black and voted against Prop 8 be embarassed?

oh do continue... :eyes:

[Duncan Grant]

192. Looks like we're done here.

Have an idealized reality kinda day! :)

[Ken Burch]

203. Not against, for. If you voted "yes" you voted to ban gay marriage.

n/t.

[CreekDog]

206. Yes I know that (I'm in CA and I voted against 8)

my point was that nobody who should feel guilty if they voted against banning gay marriages.

[ruggerson]

311. ...

[cboy4]

229. Absolutely. It's time to say like it is.

:thumbsup:

[donco6]

231. It's the only logical approach.

Anything else is burying your head in the sand.

[TexasObserver]

124. Our Democratic Coalition has many important segments, and they vote differently.

I oppose any form of scapegoating among the coaltion members, but it is always valid to discuss why one group votes differently on a given issue. The voting of various groups in our coalition was not a surprise.

What is the Democratic coalition?

Blacks
Hispanics
Women
Gays
Unions
Progressives
Jews

That list is not complete, but those groups illustrate the point. On any issue relating to homosexuality, there WILL be more negative attitudes among blacks and Hispanics than among white Democrats. We know the cultural reasons this is true. We know it's based in religion, and reflects that.

Stigmatizing particular groups within our coalition because a disproportionate number of their membership oppose gay rights (or any rights) is attacking by implication all those within the group who do support gay rights. It's blaming the group, instead of placing it on the individuals within the group who are voting wrong.

[defendandprotect]

131. Education to combat religious brainwashing/hatred ...and calling out of

all churches who teach this trash and finance these campaigns --

[TexasObserver]

135. I absolutely believe in calling out the religions.

The religions are the merchants of hatred in this sordid tale. Their hatred, their vengefulness, is the force that drives the anti gay actions.

No tax benefits for any group that enters the political realm to advance their hatred. If they want to talk about it at their church, that's church. But when they leave the church and start running commercials, that's being political. Jerk their charitable status, and hold their leadership accountable. There are already provisions to make the responsible officers and directors of the charitable entity stand personally liable for funds spent in violation of the 501(c)(3) mandates.

[defendandprotect]

148. Highly agree --!!

[CreekDog]

139. Yes.

and your way of discussing it is not only fairer, but a more effective way of dealing with the actual causal link between attitudes and votes that deny civil rights.

[TexasObserver]

144. The root cause is religion, and that is where we must fight it.

Why should any church be able to spend money in the political arena without losing their tax exempt status? If they want to cling to their hatred of all things gay, let them keep it inside their church. When they peddle it in TV commercials, they are being political, and they should lose their charitable status.

Hate groups should not be allowed charitable status.

[Duncan Grant]

174. If gay Democrats supported an initiative against Black or Latino civil rights?

Gay people are already being blamed for their own oppression on this board but you know, we didn't vote to take our own state sanctioned rights away. Someone else did that and some of them were Democrats. I resent that people are more interested in preserving party unity than in acknowledging the travesty of fellow Democrats voting to remove civil rights from gays. Those of you who are doing it are political opportunists and you should hang your head in shame.

[TexasObserver]

199. you can read my other posts if you want to know

[Duncan Grant]

213. Then you won't condemn gays (in any substantive manner) for voting against members of the coalition.

In the unlikely event that gays would vote affirmatively on a Proposition that would removed the rights of one of the coalition member groups, you would see the context and condemn the calling out of gay voters.

I find that to be a very interesting position to take.

[TexasObserver]

234. I don't try to have conversations with irrational people.

There's no point in our talking.

[Duncan Grant]

241. What's irrational about the facts? Democrats voted to remove and deny gay people's civil rights.

One can pretend it didn't happen but some Democrats in your coalition are every bit as petty and ignorant as the right wing.

Nice double standard.

Thanks for defending the principles the coalition steadfastly championed for themselves but not for gays.

[CreekDog]

291. you are misrepresnting multiple people on this thread including me

you can be angry, but you still have a responsibility to be accurate.

[Duncan Grant]

309. Feel free to engage in a little constructive discourse.

I'd be interested in hearing more from anyone who feels misrepresented by me. Lots more.

[smiley_glad_hands]

200. "political opportunists"

Or attention whores.

[Duncan Grant]

210. Were your rights removed or are you comfortably "entitled" somewhere?

All bark, no bite?

[smiley_glad_hands]

230. I think you should read my posts in this thread. eom

[Duncan Grant]

242. You're right, my apologies.

I inferred the wrong meaning from your post - my apologies.

All this "Party unity, right or wrong, it doesn't matter" crap has really left me feeling bereft of allies.

Best wishes to you!

[FreeState]

127. I don't care what color you are - if your voted for it your a Bigot n/t

[CreekDog]

132. yeah, the behavior, not the color is the point

:hi:

[AlCzervik]

150. lots of white and Hispanics folks voted yes as well, anyone who did vote imo sucks.

sorry they just do and that yes on 8 vote was a deal breaker for me, i no longer talk to 3 of my neighbors.

[smiley_glad_hands]

182. Your post isn't doing anything but stoking the flames.

Maybe that was your intention?

[grantdevine]

187. I have a problem when people make accusations without citations

that's you.

[grantdevine]

188. removed by me

[smiley_glad_hands]

198. Lets see what you have accomplished:

Mormons have a great worldview, its just dandy, don't attack them for their deranged belief system, even if it affects someone else's rights.

Hmmm. Gay people have no right to be upset with anyone other than gay people. Gosh, whats wrong with those crazy gay people, can't they just go be gay and pissed off somewhere else? Maybe there's a gay underground somewhere?

Further, they should stop looking at numbers, because numbers lie, i mean exit polls were wrong in 04 right?

Also, if they don't agree with me then they are being insensitive to my insensitivity.



If you let this blow over, we can come together as a community. Quick, get the gasoline.

[CreekDog]

294. you must have been reading some other thread because i didn't say any of that

i simply said not to call out people by race when your complaint is with people who voted yes --their race is not the issue, their vote is.

your right to be angry is yours, but you don't have the right to be angry at a race of people.

[Bryn]

201. That's what I thought

I don't think they should be blamed. It could be like you said...all races, religions..etc.

[Ken Burch]

205. Is there a way to address this question in terms of what the "No on 8" campaign did wrong

In attempting to connect with AA voters?

My impression is that the "Yes on 8" campaign pretty much had a white face in its tv ads. Can anybody else speak to that?

I agree that it shouldn't go to the place of blaming black voters, but I think it can be fairly asked why the pro-SSM side seemed to have trouble getting their support, if those exit polls were correct.

[CreekDog]

207. just about anything that isn't what i complained about is a good start

i was reacting to the posts that were sort of like, "we lost because of black folks" etc.

i'm paraphrasing, but that's where it just went too far for me.

[Ken Burch]

208. That's understandable.

n/t.

[gardenista]

209. Thank you!

Please let's work together to kill Prop 8 with any means at our disposal.

But please don't blame one group for our failure to stop it.

[bridgit]

214. Well I seen this coming, and can't believe I'm the only one that did...

And it's taken less than 72hrs with some breaking back out as the results were just coming in election night.

A new DU member asked toward the end of the primaries if DU was such a shit-storm of a mess all the time as it was in GD-Prim. I recall suggesting to them that it wouldn't be long after and we'd be right back to vitriolic arguments over everything from the 2nd, the 1st, owning hand guns, kids flipping people off on buses, veganism, red meat, white meat, the other white meat just round & round & round back stabbing, front stabbing, side stabbing, minority rights, minorities, rights, human rights, single issues, forum topics spilling over into each other willy nilly in the guise of being too important to contain for whatever reason, etc, etc, etc and guess what?

Here we are. Again. DU. The said-to-be multi-headed hydra of preeminently cool, hip thought and proud of it; or is it all prone to ether? Is it a form of myopia? Which is what I think it is. Just peering at these screens waiting for that person to come back up so we can be vile & offensive all over again. Never even appropriately relieved we burnt the witch by way of water and brought back her fucked up broom; never content. We got earphone heads we got dirty beds it's the 20th century? That's it?

Imo there's no rationale for being so dumb I agree...it has to stop!

[1776Forever]

224. Good article that shows the diversity of the ideas in the black community from SF Gate...

Prop. 8 rivals seek support in black churches

Leslie Fulbright,Matthai Kuruvila, Chronicle Staff Writers

Wednesday, October 22, 2008

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/22/MN0N13L0FR.DTL

At rallies Tuesday in Oakland, black clergy with the rival campaigns presented completely contradictory statements. A gay black minister spoke at Oakland City Hall about preserving the right to marry. At a rally in the Fruitvale district, another black minister said gay black people don't want to get married anyway.

"I am not trying to rail against gay people; we have gay people in our music department," Ray Williams, pastor of the First Morning Star Baptist Church in Oakland, said at the pro-Prop. 8 rally. "When you look at the people getting married in San Francisco, you didn't see very many blacks. It's not a distinct issue in the black community."

The Rev. Roland Stringfellow, a former Baptist minister who came out as gay and is now a member of the United Church of Christ, spoke at the No on 8 gathering.

"I do not believe Christ is teaching us to take rights away from people," said Stringfellow, who hopes to get married some day.

Churches are the most influential organizations in the black community, which accounts for 6 percent of the state population and 12 percent of the national population. Demographic surveys of churchgoing African Americans reveal that the community is somewhat more inclined to restrict gay rights - but not as much as some think.

In a survey of 35,000 Americans about religious beliefs conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 46 percent of those who attend historically African American churches believe that society should discourage homosexuality, while 40 percent believe that society should accept it. The survey didn't address the many African Americans who no longer attend historically black churches.

Those figures compare with the general U.S. population, in which only 40 percent believe that society should discourage homosexuality, the survey found. Those attending historically African American churches are far more accepting of gays and lesbians than white evangelicals or Mormons, who favor societal restrictions at rates of 64 and 68 percent, respectively.

[cboy4]

227. Absolutely fair debate. People of color who voted against

8 should be called out and criticized because they should goddam well know what it's like to face discrimination and hate.

This is a discussion board where race relations should be debated.

If you have such a thin skin, you might consider taking a break from DU.

[kwassa]

236. They shouldn't be singled out, which was the first and persistent response.

It is wrong on a variety of levels.

[cboy4]

238. I didn't say they should be singled out. Re-read what I wrote. n/t

[yardwork]

237. The OP is neither black nor gay. Just someone trying to cause trouble.

In fact, there have been some very thoughtful posts from black DUers, including both gay and straight, here over the past couple of days.

This is just some idiot trying to cause trouble.

[kwassa]

240. I agree with this "idiot", actually.

I am neither black or gay, either, though my wife and child are black. The fact that I am a white heterosexual does not preclude me from participating in this discussion, or make my perceptions less valid.

There have been some very thoughtful and intelligent posts, but there have been some very hateful posts, too, and those are the ones I object to.

[Karenina]

244. When people are hurt or threatened they often lash out.

As an over-achiever, token and the "integration" for much of my life, I often endured racist attacks from long-time cohorts the moment they felt somehow "threatened" by me. It was a knee-jerk response to GO THERE causing us all much pain.

In reading so many of these threads, my perception is that the "organized" GLBT community suffers a split on racial lines and therein lie both the problem and an opportunity. Gay people of colour are INVISIBLE to the community-at-large.

The established rights of a minority should NEVER be subjected to a popular vote. It's a recipe for disaster. The "NO on 8" campaign failed to recognize this and mobilize in a "Go Visit Bubba and Zayde" way. There are some who can be peeled off from the religious hype but it must be stated that you cannot reason someone out of a position he didn't reason himself into. ;-)

What discourages me about the tone of too many comments is the BLAME. As I read the numbers, if 70% of AA voters had voted NO, the measure STILL WOULD HAVE PASSED! But DU's GLBT community seems focused on those "reverse racist" blacks and calling them out for the slight. How many other slights have there been? :SIGH:

[plaintiff]

261. Birds of a feather

etc.

[EFerrari]

262. Being black or gay are not prerequites to ethics

or to speaking up for your values.

Some of you really need to take responsibilty for yourselves instead of calling out black people and insulting posters who object to such regressive behavior.

Not to mention, you can't win elections by driving off the 30% of black voters who voted with us. The time would be better spent finding a way to reach out to more black voters, especially the women who voted for Prop H8.

[LostinVA]

269. Have you seen some of the nasty anti-gay responses in these threads?

It goes both ways, and I think that is REALLY fueling this and making it worse.

Some posters are using this as an excuse to be bigotted jerks.

[EFerrari]

298. Of course I've seen them. And you're right.

There are some people who use this as an opportunity to get their hate on.

:hug:

[CreekDog]

296. thank you for pointing this out

i actually think most people on this thread and others object to the broad brush racial scapegoating just as you have done.

[EFerrari]

299. Neighbor, the media has been feeding this narrative

to all of us who are heartbroken.

We don't even know how true it is although there is likely a grain of truth.

Let's be good to each other and then, let's get to work.

:grouphug:

[CreekDog]

295. wrong again

but you stopped listening a long time ago.

you decided who i am, what my motives are...you've got it all figured out.

[IndianaJones]

239. nothing wrong with calling out bigots. nt.

[malta blue]

243. thank you!

:applause:

I am not even going to read those posts defending the racism on this thread.

I completely agree with you :thumbsup:

[Occam Bandage]

245. 70%. If you think skin color is a justified defense for mass bigotry, fine. nt

[EFerrari]

257. Excuses for racism. Statistics can be made to do anything.

The black vote here is only 10%. Black people did not pass this proposition.

[AtomicKitten]

255. I agree. We are in this together.

The fight for gay marriage isn't over by a long shot.

[plaintiff]

258. Anyone who voted for that proposition is a filthy piece of shit no matter who they are.

But thank you for your concern.
:eyes:

[mitchtv]

273. best post of the day

and the truest

[LostinVA]

263. I have only seen one thread calling out black people

And I alerted and posted I was against the OP. It was locked.

[EFerrari]

266. But there have been ten of posts. The anger directed at black Prop 8

voters is disproportionate in the extreme to the 7% of California voters they represent.

If people are too angry and upset to talk about solutions, about how reach out to these voters, that's understandable. But, if there's too much anger to talk about solutions, it's probably not a good time to talk about RACE.

[LostinVA]

268. There have also been alot of posts screaming "racism" for no reason

Along with posts blaming GAYS for it.

I know you're not anti gay, and you know I'M not racist. This si a REAL issue everyone needs to discuss and try to join forces are. The GOP are trying out a new "Southern Strategy" with Black and Hispanic social conservatives. It's sickening. And, it is extremely upsetting to have minorities vote against other minorities rights. Imagine if the issue was banning racial Affirmative Action, and GLBTers voted substantially to vote against it?

Alot of jerks are using this issue and these threads to be either blatantly -- or "cutesy" homophobic and racist. This issue needs to be discussed, and OPs like this do nothing but try to shut down the discourse.

[EFerrari]

275. The rage being directed at black voters is out of proportion to the problem they present.

Black and Latino voters together are 28%; those that are said to have voted for H8, only 18% together.

These voters do represent a challenge to gay marriage supporters, that's true enough. So does the other 82% of voters who voted for H8.


So far the discussion of these minority voters has been uneven at best. Some of these conversations sound just like Freepers saying blacks elected Obama -- as if they could.

Do you know that far from making the situation worse this time, CA voters did over ten points BETTER than the last time this was put up for a vote? Some lady who studies progressive ballot measures on Amy's show talked about this today. We did MORE THAN 10 points better this time -- WITH the enormous turnout of black voters.

I remember last summer people saying that Latinos would not vote for Obama. Well, they did. In the same way, there are Yes voters in the black community that will come with us if we invest in them and if we don't again leave them to ingest the rightwing lies and propaganda which is pretty much what happened this time. To ignore them and then turn around and call them homophobes doesn't sound like a winning strategy for social change to me, anyway. Most of those yes voters were women, too.

[CreekDog]

297. if there had been only one OP on this, i would have thought it an anomaly

but there were multiple OP's on it and the replies often were worse than the OP's. in fact, i think the worst things that have been said were actually in replies rather than OP's themselves.

[EFerrari]

301. It goes right back to the media. They are pushing this story hard.

And yet, I haven't seen a single story that says CA voters did better this time by ten points than the last time this issue was on the ballot. Have you?

[bobbolink]

270. We do what TPTB want, and tear each other up.

And that's worked so well for us in the past.

:cry:

[booley]

276. It's not racism, it's emotion

Prop 8 really hurt., It was mean spirited and bigoted and a throw back to other times in our history when the US has told certain groups of people they were second class.

And one of those groups has been black people. So on a shallow level it feels like a betrayal. Blacks know what discrimination is. They fought for marriage rights. So how could they deny us what they they themselves wanted? How could they not understand?

Of course this is an emotional reaction and emotions are not rational. It's silly to blame "Blacks" as if they are any more a uniform group that anybody else. And Historicly suffering has not equaled wisdom. If it did then Mormons would have been on our side. Poor Whites would have been the strongest supporters of combatting racism. But too often people compartmentalize.

For those that blame "blacks", calm down. It wasn't blacks who voted for Prop 8, it was bigots who happened to be black. Many of the people hurt by Prop 8 are BLACK. (Black gay and lesbians are most likely to raise children so they are most likely to need protections that marriage provides)

And to everybody else, let people calm down. yes, it's illogical to blame black people for this but calling others racists is counter productive You can't make someone stop having feelings about something by telling them they're feelings are wrong and they are a bad person for having them. You only make the person defensive and hold onto those feelings even stronger.

[EFerrari]

278. Racist rhetoric is not an appropriate way to vent emotion any more than homophobia is.

You are right about feelings running high right now, though. And there's another thing.

The media has been hyping this story about black and Latino voters all out of proportion and upset people are buying into it. We're being rolled by the media, people. There is a problem here but it's not the massive betrayal that the media is pitching.

[Psyop Samurai]

277. um... actually we don't...

...and if you had read and followed like I did, instead of coming up with a phony axe to grind, you would know that. You are being disruptive.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4405606

[EFerrari]

288. The OP's opinion is shared by many DUers. That's a real axe, thanks.

[fascisthunter]

292. No actually we Agree that Racism Should Never Be Tolerated

especially on DU. Blaming Blacks for prop 8 was DIVISIVE, RACIST and DISRUPTIVE. The fact that you can't recognize it is well... very telling.

[Psyop Samurai]

304. What I recognize (and I will have to discontinue discussion...

...as it has turned into an unproductive conflagration) is that there was a reasonably productive (if not faultless) exchange in the beginning before a concerted "blaming blacks" meme descended like a swarm from folks who were neither gay nor black, thus inflaming things to the point where reasonable discussion was no longer possible.

I'm sorry, but that was my experience of what happened. So it seems we have a real Rashomon on our hands, and maybe what you find very telling is not so clear-cut as it seemed. And maybe I have missed or overlooked some things in my search for understanding from a key demographic that is familiar with certain nuances, and in a better position to redress certain wrongs.

[Raineyb]

305. Meme?

It implies a falsity that I don't think is warranted. From Wednesday there have been plenty of posts out there blaming black people. Most of them were replies to OPs so you wouldn't see them unless you actually went through the thread. There may have been reasonable discussion but it has been drowned an a sea of vitriol.

I've been calling bullshit on these blaming black people posts since Wednesday and contrary to your assertion that the posts are from people who are neither black nor gay I am a black woman. I found them extremely offensive and when I said so I was accused of closing my eyes to homophobia in the black community. I know damn well what's wrong with my community but there's no way in hell I'd discuss it in any of these forums considering the tone of the discussion over the last 3 days. Why the hell would I even want to consider having a discussion with people who seem to only want to see my community in terms of dysfunction and pathology?

Regards

[Psyop Samurai]

306. Where the problem arises is that many of us feel that we have been mischaracterized...

...as blaming black people. That said, the tone of posts on here is surely lacking, and I no doubt overlooked some things that were out of line. Problem is, I almost always find the posts of my fellow GLBTers out of line. Yet, on this occasion, on balance, I did not.

I'm wondering if you made an effort to meet the situation half-way, because I experience your post as very withholding. That is your right, and you may have good reason beyond my understanding. But let me say say this. A number of black DUers stepped up to the plate in a way that made me feel hopeful again. I hope that those exchanges, and the sense of solidarity behind them, are something we can build on in the future.

[kwassa]

307. the differences in perception are quite amazing, aren't they?

I found lots of GLBT comments out of line, and they are a community I am sympathetic to.

Singling out 7% of the vote on Prop 8 for endless castigation and vitriol based on race is only one thing.

Why should anyone meet halfway when their community is declared 70% bigoted? Riddle me that.

[Psyop Samurai]

308. Why should anyone meet halfway?

I don't know, but many did. Perhaps in a spirit of generosity and healing?

Who declared 70% bigoted? The voters. But I agree that that is too broad a brush, too accusatory a term to build on, and overlooks some unfortunate circumstances, not the least of which were ads using Obama's own words against us, (for which I hold no grudge).

I don't care what percentage of California's vote anybody represented, and to me the whole "who's to blame" for Prop 8's passage is a red herring that's been conflated with legitimate and heartfelt issues.

The fundamental issue is betrayal.

It seems that I and others have been operating under some false assumptions regarding the presumably self-evident nature of civil rights issues among our black compatriots. In a way, I think that many of us have known for a long time, but unlike our black GLBT brethren, never really confronted it. It's hard to convey the visceral depths of this week's sudden confrontation. For what it's worth, I was an Obama supporter (not Hillary), knowing full well the lay of the land, and do not regret it.

So, I guess there's many shades, and I agree that we should eschew castigation and vitriol moving forward. But I don't feel guilty for discussing it, and, for all their faults, this time I feel that GLBTers have been mischaracterized with an even broader brush in return. And, as I alluded previously, a number of black DUers both reached out and enlightened.

[kwassa]

315. I think what this really points up is how little white gays know about African-Americans

and I am not blaming anyone, for I think both groups know little about each other. Gays assumed a relationship that blacks never saw, or at least a majority of blacks never saw. There is still a lot of social segregation in this country, and little interaction between the two groups generally. There are many exceptions, of course, but not enough. Most blacks don't see gay marriage as a human rights issue right not; they have had little reason to think about it. They are socially conservative, generally. And aside from voting for Obama, I don't think most gays have anything to do with black people.

From my perspective, some of the comments aimed towards blacks here are inexcusable. You felt the opposite, that the broad brush was applied more to the GLBT community.

To me, it is a wake-up call for both sides to get each other better.

[Psyop Samurai]

327. I completely agree...

...almost. :)

Why have little reason to think about it when your own family members are gay? That's the thing. I'm troubled by this sense that it's a "white thing". But I think you accurately describe the lay of the land, and white gays need to be disabused of some faulty assumptions.

Thanks for your response, and I agree to the wake-up call.

[Raineyb]

314. Let me put it this way

When there's an OP that is titled "Black Heterosexism or Just Black Sexism to blame for CA 8?" (And it wasn't even on my list of items I found offensive when I wrote the post to which you responded.) There is absolutely no other way to characterize such a post except to say that it is blaming black people. When someone says that Gay and Lesbian Democrats were thrown under the bus by black Dems. I don't see any other way to interpret such a statement. When I read "If it was only whites voting it wouldn't have passed." I know exactly where the blame, and blame is the word to use here, is being laid.

I saw posts that I found offensive first thing on Wednesday so I can't say that I was willing to go half way after that because frankly, the posts feed the perception that my vote or opinion as a black woman is acceptable so long as it comports to the way a subset of white people expect it to. (Generally without having asked my opinion beforehand naturally.) And I do not and will not go into in depth conversations with people who I feel (correctly or not) are like that. Especially when the conversation boils down to "what the fuck is wrong with black people?"

Regards

[Psyop Samurai]

322. Thank you, Raineyb...

That gives me a better perspective, as have some other posts today, and regrettably, I no doubt overlooked a lot of things in my own selective search and sense of priority.

I have some trouble with your characterization of "subset of white people" because that's not what I experience LGBT to be, and it hints at the very crux of our underlying problem and resentment. I don't know if there's a forum in which these kinds of barriers could be productively addressed, but it seems like DU may not be it.

I am painfully aware of racism among whites, including GLBTs, and the sense of entitlement. I can't magically fix it. Nor should anyone expect a magic fix from anyone else, though I could see how this recent outpouring may have come across that way (and obviously, with a dearth of sensitivity and tact). But, honestly, I don't believe that was the intent of the majority. We do have legitimate concerns, whether they get drowned out or not, whether anyone hears them or not.

There are many ironies here. I've been largely unsupportive and even castigating of the GLBT crowd on DU, finding them too unruly. But the night of the election, something changed. When we won, I cried for the first time in eight years. I did not cry once during Bush's eight year reign of terror; I would not give them the satisfaction.

But something of my humanity returned that night, and there was dancing in the street (literally). When news of the ballot initiatives hit, it had an inexplicably profound effect. They won't even affect me personally, and in the prior eight years I would barely have noticed amid the unrelenting hopelessness.

But now I remembered who I was.

[Raineyb]

328. Subset may not be the right word

I don't want to say white people as that makes it sound like a complete generalization which I'm trying to avoid. Republicans don't give a damn what I think and don't depend on my opinion and progressives sometimes assume to know what I think and act without acting then all hell breaks loose when things blow up because they were expecting something different.

In truth, I find this whole Prop 8 passing to be completely horrendous and the percentages of black vote for it embarrassing as all hell. I see no reason why the churches should give a tinker's damn who city hall gives marriage licenses to since no one is forcing the churches to marry anyone.

Unfortunately there's a lot of work to do to get more people in my community to agree with me.

Regards

[LostinVA]

293. And anyone who posts anything IN ANY WAY against marriage equality should be gone

And that is per Skinner.

[EFerrari]

300. Has anyone done that?

[LostinVA]

302. You seriously have to be kidding me

[EFerrari]

303. No, I'm asking you a question.

I've seen posts in the past telling gay folks to go back to their back burner that I heartily and vocally disagreeded with.

But I'm asking, has anyone done that?

You know what, nevermind. You need to be upset and I need to respect that.

[readmoreoften]

344. Yes, a lot of folks have been TS'd in the past few days for arguing against same-sex marriage

[bobd0]

313. The percentage of black yes votes on Prop 8 is so miniscule as to be

almost inconsequential. The over 3 million white votes passed Prop 8. The number of black votes couldn't sway the outcome one way or the other. To continually blame black voters is inherently racist and it must stop.

Kick this thread. Too late to recommend.

[EFerrari]

316. Thank you.

:kick:

[W_HAMILTON]

317. Not true.

If you can show me the numbers, I might think otherwise.

But from everything I've seen -- the percentage by which Prop-8 was passed, the voting percentage of blacks, and the amount by which blacks voted for Prop-8 -- yes, it's completely fair to say that they affected the outcome of the election.

If they had voted for equal rights the same way they voted for Obama, Prop-8 wouldn't have passed.

[bobd0]

329. Oh, it's true.

From what I've heard on the news over 80 percent of Republicans voted for Prop 8. Only 36 percent of Democrats voted for Prop 8. The reason Prop 8 passed is WHITE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN VOTERS.

Why was the first reaction of the GLBT community to blame black voters? Blaming black voters for Prop 8 is akin to the irrational nonsense of demanding black candidates denounce and reject every black person that makes a statement against a white candidate. Black politicians are already held to a different standard and it isn't right. Why are black voters being held to a different standard too?

WHITE REPUBLICANS PASSED PROPOSITION 8. TAKE IT UP WITH THEM AND STOP THIS RACIST BLAME GAME.

A link to this Daily KOS piece was posted at DU yesterday.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

[W_HAMILTON]

332. I already explained why.

We expect bigoted Republicans to vote against gay people.

We didn't expect fellow Democrats, especially ones that talked about what a great achievement it would be in the struggle for equal rights, if our nation was to elect an African American president.

I already knew we had a long way to go to win the support of bigoted white Republicans, I just am surprised at the realization that we now have to spend just as much time and effort educating bigoted African Americans, especially when I thought during the election, they more than anyone else would understood the significance of equal rights for EVERYONE.

[bobd0]

333. So you find nothing wrong with singling out African American voters when white voters from both

parties also voted for Prop 8 and you have the gall to use the word "bigoted"?

I am surprised at the realization that we now have to spend as much time and effort educating bigoted GLBT's, especially when I thought during the election, they more than anyone else would understand the significance of equal rights for EVERYONE.

Stop scapegoating black voters. It's an inherently racist act. Otherwise, why aren't you scapegoating white voters?

Edit typo

[W_HAMILTON]

337. Uhh, have you been reading DU for the past few years?

People call out bigoted Republican voters all the time. They are the party of intolerance and bigotry. You come to expect that from them.

I don't expect people who champion equal rights to vote against equal rights.

[bobd0]

349. Have you ever stopped to consider that most Americans don't view

same sex marriage as an equal rights or civil rights issue?

Most people I talk to view this as a cultural issue and issues people regard as cultural issues are much more difficult to change than civil rights issues. Attacking one small voting block AS THE VERY FIRST REACTION to the passage of Prop 8 isn't going to help one bit. It smacks of racism no matter how you try to justify it.

Civil rights issues are generally easy to define. They can be reduced to right and wrong. Same sex marriage is a matter of right and wrong too. But apparently it's viewed by the majority of voters as a cultural issue. Good luck changing that, especially in light of the GLBT community's decision to "play the race card" -- a phrase I detest, BTW -- as their first option.

I support loving couples right to marry regardless of sex, race, religion, etc. but the GLBT community is going about this entirely the wrong way. Attacking a small, relatively powerless group that has struggled against the most vehement racism for centuries in America isn't going to help one bit.

I know you're hurt. I would be too. But lashing out and scapegoating the small percentage of black voters as a first reaction is truly counterproductive.

[W_HAMILTON]

350. Yes, which is why it's ignorant and should be condemned.

And "civil rights" for blacks, or women, obviously did not start out as being civil rights per your definition of the word, either. They were cultural issues as well. Equal rights are equal rights, and civil rights are civil rights, regardless of how someone wants to define them.

And no one is powerless, when their votes changed the outcome. That's as silly as saying that one's vote doesn't matter, when there are several important races still undecided because of the difference in a few hundred votes. You can't have it both ways.

Until different numbers come out, the fact is, black people who boasted what a great achievement it was in the struggle for equal rights, are some of the same ones that are at fault for passing an initiative which restricted another group's rights. That is hypocritical, it is shameful, and it should be pointed out.

[kwassa]

336. What do you know about black people? Why do you make assumptions about them?

You are only surprised because you really don't know the black community, like most whites, and the black community knows little about the white GLBT community. Your assumptions are not their assumptions. Why should they understand the significance of gay marriage to you? How would they? Many, from news reports, don't see it as a rights issue in the first place. There is little intersection or interaction between these two communities.

and your math is just plain wrong. You attempt to fix blame with a tiny percentage of the vote, when in fact every single vote is equally responsible for the passage of Prop 8. It isn't just white Republicans and black voters, there are other ethnic voters, and probably white Democrats as well. Each has precisely the same responsibility, no more, no less.

Singling out blacks as a cause is both false and racist.

[W_HAMILTON]

338. It is not racist.

If I was racist, I wouldn't have voted for Obama.

If I was racist, I wouldn't still support Obama, even after watching many of his supporters vote to deny me rights.

And my math is not wrong. Using the numbers that are out there now, if African Americans voted against Prop-8 the same way they voted for Obama, it would have not passed. Period. Until new numbers come out that dispute the numbers we know now, that will be the case.

If there is "little intersection or interaction" between gays and black people now, there damn sure wasn't much more in years past, but when blacks were struggling for their civil rights and trying to be treated equally, gays supported them.

And the more I read, you're right, I was completely wrong in assuming that most blacks cared about equal rights. How stupid I am to have thought that, after watching so many talk about how significant election night was in terms of the long struggle for equal rights.

[kwassa]

340. Yes, it is racist, and your math is pointless.

Your mathematical premise is false

"Using the numbers that are out there now, if African Americans voted against Prop-8 the same way they voted for Obama, it would have not passed. Period. Until new numbers come out that dispute the numbers we know now, that will be the case."

That is true. That does not, however, in any way, shape or form MAKE THEM RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PASSAGE any more than ANY OTHER VOTER. To suggest otherwise is RACIST.

"If there is "little intersection or interaction" between gays and black people now, there damn sure wasn't much more in years past, but when blacks were struggling for their civil rights and trying to be treated equally, gays supported them."

Crack your history books, if you have them. There were no organized gay political groups in existence when blacks were struggling for their civil rights, so this premise of yours is also false. Individual persons that were gay may certainly have supported civil rights.

The gay liberation movement was an offshoot of the civil rights movement, which had already achieved it's legal goals.

You also don't understand the basic point is that the real problem is that the GLBT community made an assumption about the black community without any real knowledge of the black community. Whose fault is that? Most GLBTs know very little about blacks, and most blacks very little about GLBTs because they live in different communities. Get it? Social segregation still exists, by and large, in this country, though there certainly are exceptions.

You are blaming black people for seeing the world through their own eyes and not yours. Get over it.

[W_HAMILTON]

341. Bullcrap.

(1) The premise is not false. Using the numbers out there now, if African Americans supported equal rights for gay people the same way they supported Obama, Prop-8 would not have passed.

(2) It does make them responsible. It doesn't matter how small a percentage group someone is, if the vote was close enough that even a small percentage group was able to affect the outcome.

(3) Here's a clue: there were gay people before there were gay rights movement, just like there were black people before there was a civil rights movement.

(4) It is not racist. Ignorant white Republican voters get accused all the time of being bigoted and prejudiced around here. You can be damn sure if it was the gay vote that could be attributed to Obama losing a state, and hence the election, gay people would be blamed. HILLARY SUPPORTERS WERE BLAMED FOR LOSING THE ELECTION, BEFORE THE ELECTION WAS EVEN HELD. Young people have been blamed for losing us elections, when they didn't turn out like we had hoped. When blaming people, I would blame the people that should know better, before the idiots who I never expected to vote for us to begin with.

(5) No, I am blaming black people for talking up equal rights, all the while voting them down for others.

[kwassa]

343. Wrong

You are making black voters responsible. To do so is RACIST. They have no greater responsibility than anyone else. You are separating them out from all the voters equally responsible. To do so is RACIST. You select blacks only and assign them responsibility.

It is a distortion of the highest order.

As I suspected, you don't know the history of the gay rights or civil rights movement, and I caught you on that in your last post. You also didn't respond to the other obvious fact is that you don't know the black community, as many GLBTers don't, yet again assign your expectations to them. Good luck with that.

Black people have NO responsibility to vote the way you expect them to do. Any such expectation would be RACIST.

[W_HAMILTON]

345. You're right.

They are just as much responsible as the ignorant, racist Republicans that we knew were going to vote against the measure. You're completely right.

And you didn't catch anything. Gay people have existed before any movement. Gay people have usually been more progressive thinking.

I don't have to know any "community." I know that many black people were emotional about the fact that we elected a black president, after their struggle for equal rights and the treatment they have received in the past, all the while THEY VOTED FOR THE SAME TYPE OF TREATMENT FOR GAY PEOPLE.

That is shameful, and should be criticized. Calling me, or anyone else that believes the same, is laughable. When white people were restricting the rights of blacks, people weren't calling blacks the racists. But when black people actually affect the outcome of a vote restricting rights of gay people, the gay people should be blamed for pointing this out?

More hypocrisy. People bitched about the Democrats in Minnesota for not turning out more people in a vote so close. People bitched about Hillary supporters for costing the Democrats the election, BEFORE THE ELECTION WAS EVEN HELD. It is completely fair to call out a segment of Democratic voters, if those voters are the reason for a loss to our party and its ideals.

[kwassa]

346. You're proud of what you don't know.

The black community, and the history of both black and gay communities. Fascinating.

And you are doing your very best to alienate black voters permanently and being completely without their political support. That will certainly make your quest for marriage equality successful.

People in this forum, including you, SHOULD be criticized for relentless attacks on black voters. Massive attack threads, over and over and over, by people who assumed a relationship that didn't exist because they really don't know and make no effort to know black people.

[W_HAMILTON]

352. Get over yourself.

And apparently you're proud, foolishly believing that you know it all, and saying I'm wrong, without doing one damn thing to prove anything wrong that I said.

And gay people overwhelmingly supported Obama, even though he publicly said that he did not support same-sex marriage. So, boo-fucking-hoo. If black people would not support equal rights for another group over something as petty as you suggest, that is even more shameful than what you have been defending.

And, by the way, which is it? Are blacks a small percentage of the vote that cannot possibly have any effect on an election, or are they an important segment of the population that gay people need if they want to achieve marriage equality?

As for any relationship, in reality, no, I didn't think that black people would support gay rights. Many of them are ignorant and prejudiced, just like the other groups that voted to deny gay people the same rights that they enjoy. But as a gay person, it was sickening to see so many people boasting about what a crowning moment it was in the struggle for equality, knowing that many of those same people voted to DENY GAY PEOPLE EQUAL RIGHTS.

[Duncan Grant]

342. Some Blacks are homophobic and racist just like everybody else. Finally, we're telling the truth.

Some Blacks voted to remove state sanctioned civil rights from gay Americans. Of all the Black votes cast on Prop 8, approximately 70% of those were "Yes on 8" votes.

Similarly, some Whites voted to remove state sanctioned civil rights from gay Americans. Of all the White votes cast on Prop 8, approximately 49% of those were "Yes on 8" votes.

I think political analyst look at numbers like this all the time in order to strategize, forecast, etc.

I've never thought Blacks were singularly responsible for "Yes on 8"'s passage but I think it's interesting that no one wants to talk about the traditional Democratic constituencies who want equality for themselves but not others. I think the legacy of hope and change in California is one of the most astounding political events in our history.

edit: sp

[Duncan Grant]

318. Narcissism dies a slow death.

Have it your way. All is well in the world. It's all the fault of those nasty racists. Same as it ever was...

[bobd0]

330. Pardon me, but what the hell does narcissism have to do with this?

edit to add

I'm not blaming this on racists. I'm saying that blaming black voters for Prop 8 is an inherently racist attitude.

[LWolf]

321. And a thread at the top of the page

thinks that anyone who doesn't support equal marriage rights shouldn't be on DU.

By the time everyone evicts each other for their various biases, no one will be left. :D

I don't know if you've noticed this, but DUers call each other out all the time.

It's okay to call out the "loony left" on DU, since the nominee, now the president elect, publicly distanced himself from the left.

It's okay to call anyone who doesn't wear Obama pom poms and chant "Yes, We Can," or "GoBama!!!" a "concern troll."

It's okay to tombstone people who have the temerity to suggest that not all good ideas come from the democratic party, and that not all elected democrats should be supported.

That said, I agree with your post, except, obviously, for the last line.

I would word it differently. Broad brush attacks, here or anywhere, come from the ignorant. Those making them need to be educated.

And it broad brush attacks ARE against DU rules. Snip the rule to your alerts when you send them.

[Bluenorthwest]

326. The DU rules call for support of marriage equality

Yes they do. So those who don't support equal rights should not be on DU or at least they should not be promoting their bigotry here, according to Skinner's Law.

[bobd0]

331. I support the right of any loving couple to be married. I DON'T support scapegoating black voters

when the vast majority of voters who voted yes on Prop 8 were Republicans.

What does Skinner's Law say about the bigotry of scapegoating black voters?

[Bluenorthwest]

323. The whole thing breaks my heart

CA is my home state. I now live in Oregon. We passed a similar bill, with a similar number of Kerry voters supporting discrimination. Oregon is dang white. Point being, the large chunk of uninformed and ignorant Democratic voters is about the same, no matter the racial make up. The important fact is that they are Democrats and need to get right. That is the sad part.

[Lord Helmet]

347. we need to stop the blaming

[Tommy_Carcetti]

351. Amen. I'm sick of it.

Prop 8 is done, like it or not. What needs to be done now is a concerted effort to change public opinion on that one issue, but continued gnashing of teeth and finger pointing on that one issue in that one state is pointless, stupid, devisive and counter productive.

We've got the presidency. We've got Congress. We've got a country to run. No need to look backwards, even if "backwards" constitutes something that happened on November 4, 2008.