After 8 years of the Democats doing NOTHING to insure integrity in our voting system

[still_one]

why would anyone not vote using absentee ballots?

[tekisui]

1. Absentee are not safe, either.

Vote early to make sure you aren't purged and have time to fight for your vote.

[still_one]

3. At least absentee are on paper. If the machines that count the absentee

votes are fixed, then it doesn't matter, the country is over

[tekisui]

6. We have paper ballots that we feed into a machine in NC,

the paper trail is there.

They may try to steal it, but they won't this time. Obama is fighting it every step. Lawyers are standing by to deal with it.

I agree much needs to be done, and hopefully it will. But, they will not steal it this time.

[still_one]

8. Same here in California for absentee. They can at least do a recount

of the absentee ballots if they need to

With all these stories of flipped votes, and people kicked off voting roles, it is quite concerning

[tekisui]

10. It is concerning.

What I have heard about the absentee ballots is that they can tell how you are likely to vote by your zip code, and some just disappear. I have heard it is best to send from the Post Office and in person if possible.

[ecstatic]

2. I know. I'm disgusted about this too. nt

[still_one]

4. It is really sad /nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. Yes, especially after the Republicans stole the 2006 election

[Junkdrawer]

9. Even a fixed slot machine pays out occassionally....otherwise the suckers stop playing....

Also, the Blue Dog Dems who won were no big change...

[trhyne]

11. Still holding onto that?

Wow... I love that this opinion still has traction... Even most democrats seem to be willing to consider it with circumspection now.

[Marr]

16. I don't think you know jack shit about what "most Democrats" think.

I know Republicans publicly deny their party's efforts on election fraud but then, they're typically ignorant people by nature.

[Peace Patriot]

17. This is a very simplistic attitude, Freddie Stubbs, that if Democrats win some elections,

the election system is safe.

The election system is NOT safe. It couldn't be more UN-safe. All the votes are now 'counted' using 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it--owned and controlled by rightwing Bushwhack corporations, with virtually no audit/recount controls.

This system is extremely vulnerable to insider hacking. It gives away all of the democratic power of transparency to private, partisan corporations.

Thus, the following scenario can easily--EASILY!--occur: The main three private, partisan corporations that now have this power--Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia--collude on a decision to let Obama win, in order to safeguard their election theft capability for future uses, but to significantly and fraudulently shave his mandate, along with inflicting him with a difficult, Puke/'Blue Dog"--infested Congress. These efforts to tie Obama's hands, on any serious reform of our government, are combined with the financial 9/11 that the Bushwhacks just pulled--and whatever else they have in store for an Obama administration--to create a period of serious economic depression and turmoil that Obama can do little about. The Corpo/Fascist media monopolies pour on the vitriol. The country starts falling apart. And then, with their election theft capability still in place, they inflict us with something even worse than the Bush Junta in 2012.

The non-transparent power over election results, that both parties gave to these private corporations, is a vast and subtle power. It can be used in many ways, and combined with many other forms of suppression and manipulation. For instance, it can be used combined with political donations to select the pro-war Democrat in a primary contest, acing out the anti-war Democrat. The pro-war Democrat easily wins in the general election, in a time of rebellion against a Republican war, and then votes in Congress to continue the war.

Indeed, this seems to be just what happened in 2006. The people voted for Democrats, with the war on Iraq as the top issue. The Democratic Congress then did exactly what Bush-Cheney wanted them to do--escalated the war, and larded Bush-Cheney will billions more of our non-existent tax dollars to keep occupying Iraqis until they signed the oil contracts. 70% of the people against the war; the people vote, and end up with 60% to 70% of Congress FOR the war. Do the math. And now the Democratic Congress has a 10% approval rating--worse than Bush's!

The power of non-transparent vote counting can be held in reserve. It can be used to tweak percentages here and there. It can be used subtly; it can be used as a bludgeon. It can be used in combination with voter caging, voter purges, voter intimidation, Corpo/Fascist media propaganda, government lies, special campaign money targeting, and every other kind of manipulation--legal and illegal--to serve the purposes of those who hold that power and all their pals at the Bilderberg Group.

Again, it is very simplistic to say that our election system is safe because Democrats win some elections. For one thing, it ignores what those Democrats actually do, once in office. But, more importantly, it ignores the blatant, obvious riggability of the election system, which no one who supports democracy should approve of.

Transparent vote counting IS democracy. Without it, you don't really have a democracy. It is THE fundamental requirement of our system of government. And we don't have it. It has been lost, recently--with the collusion of BOTH political party leaderships. And it is going to be very, very hard to get it back.

It is just plain stupid not to recognize this. Our political life as a country is a very complex affair, to be sure. We are a very big, diverse country. And involved in every political event and policy are trillions and trillions of dollars in corporate profit and government contracts. Our political system is saturated with this visible and invisible money, and the power behind the money, and the greedy who want the money. And our political system has been deteriorating, for several decades now, under the weight of vast corruption.

I am not saying that these election theft machines--an election system DESIGNED FOR non-transparency--is the only factor in the disastrous conditions of war and massive, unprecedented, mind-boggling looting by the rich that now beset us. The election theft machines are more like the coup d'grace--the final blow--to a corrupt system. They add the final touch to the demise of democracy in the U.S.A. They also point to great fear of the American people, on the part of the corporate powers who rule over us. And these non-transparent voting systems are one of the few things that we can still change--because the non-transparency of these machines is so blatant and so unamerican, and because the power over election systems still resides at the state/local level--as the framers of our Constitution intended--where ordinary people still have some influence.

If we can restore transparent vote counting, we can start to turn things around. To point people away from this is wrong, Freddie Stubbs--to tell people that, because Democrats were elected in 2006, the election system is okay. That is wrong. So, I have to ask you: Do you support non-transparent vote counting? And, if you say that you do not support it, how is it that you can tolerate and defend a system as non-transparent as this one is, in which there is hardly a member of Congress--or any official in the country, for that matter--who can prove that he or she was actually elected?

[Kingofalldems]

21. Are you a republican? Just asking.

What's wrong with transparency? :shrug: ----------:shrug:

[Junkdrawer]

7. In Pennsylvania, the Rendell (D) admin squashed all concerns and citizen input....

to grease the path to the HAVA dollars.

Watch Pennsylvania this November.

[trhyne]

14. Politicians and Politics

Not shocking, really. Politicians tend to engage in politics. The squeeky wheel gets the greese... However, the UNsqueeky wheel avoids media attention.

[trhyne]

12. Incompetent? Yes... Corrupt? Unlikely...

Diebold got sued for millions and deserved it.

There's proof a variety of things were POSSIBLE, but unless you're Mike Moore, it's rather hard to become convinced there's a deep dark conspiracy.

This is exactly the sort of fear-mongering that makes my disgusted with republicans. No democracy is perfect. Let's do the best we can with what we have.

[Marr]

15. You need to read Armed Madhouse.

This isn't tinfoil hat talk. There's plenty of real evidence that our elections have been rigged in recent years-- it simply isn't reported. And it's not just a few small tricks going on at the periphery of the system, but system-wide, GOP-orchestrated election fraud operations.

[Peace Patriot]

22. Welcome to DU, trhyne! Is Diebold still running elections? Is ES&S (Diebold spinoff)?

Is Sequoia, which sells similar 'TRADE SECRET' voting systems, and also has ties to the Republican Party?

I'm not sure what lawsuit you are referring to (--the one in California in 04, that resulted in our good Sec of State Kevin Shelley getting driven from office on bogus corruption charges?)--but Diebold (now called "Premier") is still running elections in this country. So are ES&S (which may be an even worse corp than Diebold) and Sequoia (which hired the former Republican CA Sec of State, Bill Jones, to peddle its machines).

These rightwing Corpos, invited to take over our election system by both party leaderships--for billions in profit from us taxpayers--are running a nearly completely NON-TRANSPARENT vote counting system, in which they own and control the SECRET code!

That is not a conspiracy theory. That is A FACT.

Consider Halliburton's no-bid military contracts, for a moment. No-bid contracts are an invitation to fraud. They create the conditions in which fraud is easy. That's why they are bad. And, of course, when you see conditions like that, that is where fraud should be suspected, upfront, and carefully looked for--if you can--if Bushwhack budget secrecy is not added to the problem, to confound investigation.

Transparent vote counting is even more important than transparent government contracting, because, without transparent vote counting, you can't elect real representatives of the people, to be vigilant over the contractors. You get reps who are collusive and on the take.

Transparent vote counting is the bottom line of democracy. And when transparent vote counting is taken away--and wholly NON-TRANSPARENT vote counting is put in its place--you can, you must, you are obligated as a citizen, to suspect fraud and look for fraud, and find every means at your disposal, outside of the non-transparent system, to detect fraud.

There is no other reasonable position. And among those questions we MUST ask is, WHO is responsible for selling away our right to vote to Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia--three of the most rightwing-connected corporations in the country?

I urge you to see Dan Rather's "The Trouble With Touchscreens" (www.HD.net), for starters. Then I urge you to go back and do some research about who pushed HAVA through the Anthrax Congress in the same month as the Iraq War Resolution (Oct 02)?

We are not talking about a "perfect" democracy. We are talking about NO democracy. Without transparent vote counting, you really don't have a democracy. When private, partisan corporations are permitted to 'count' all the votes with SECRET code, and the public is not permitted to review that code, and has no means of checking the results of that code in half the voting systems in the country, democracy is OVER, and Corporate Rule is nearly complete. And conditions are not much better in the other half of the voting systems--the ones that may have paper ballot but where 99% of the ballots are never counted.

How dumb can you be, not to see this?

Sorry, but this drives me crazy. Can't you SEE how wrong this is? It's NOT a conspiracy theory. It's REALITY. These ARE the conditions of our election system. We can't trust any of the results--not even favorable results. We don't know what these Corpos are up to. We CAN'T MONITOR our vote counting.

Transparency is GONE, and, with it, the most fundamental condition of democracy.

The only thing we can so right now--because of the complicity or fear of our own party leadership--is try to overwhelm the system with MANY more votes than we need to elect a decent president, and prevent the crowning of a president who is arguably worse than Bush.

And be vigilant about those things we can SEE--voter intimidation, vote suppression--and gather information and plan election reform for the future, in every state and county jurisdiction in the country.

That's ALL we can--because our party leaders have been too cowardly or too corrupt to throw these Corpos out of our election system, and return it to the PUBLIC VENUE, where it belongs--and haven't even demanded a decent audit and a paper ballot to make an audit even possible!

This malfeasance is enormous! And we need to hold them accountable for it.

Democracy has many elements, and, although we are missing two of the biggies--transparent vote counting and a truly free press--I do think we have some of the others, including an activated citizenry that is passionately committed to restoring democracy. So I have faith that we can get our country back. I have great faith in the American people. And I credit leaders like Barack Obama and Howard Dean for doing everything they can--in a difficult coup d'etat situation--to help the people restore our country and our system of government.

But it does no good--it does harm--and it is also a big strategic mistake--to blind ourselves to such a blatantly anti-democratic condition as 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting. I know what the arguments are--that if you expose this huge problem, people will give up and not vote. But experience has proven the opposite. Growing suspicions that the elections are rigged inspires people with more determination TO vote. It makes them mad. It gets them active. It increases participation and vigilance. The truth has a way of doing this. The truth inspires people. It's the murk and the lies that depress them. It's not knowing what's wrong, why the system is not working right, that demoralizes people.

And how, strategically, are we going to help an Obama administration succeed, if we don't face one of our biggest problems--that the Corpos can sabotage him on TV, and toss him out in favor of something worse than Bush in 2012, IF WE DON'T FIX THE VOTING SYSTEM?

Right now, these Bushwhack election theft corporations have the power to select him or not select him. I think they're going to let him win, but significantly and fraudulently shave his mandate, hamper him in every way, send the country into turmoil, blame it all on the "liberals," and then select some real fascist fuckwad in four years. How are we going to prevent that from happening, if we can't SEE the vote counting? They don't need "brownshirts" stuffing ballot boxes, and beating up voters, like Hitler did. They have direct, NON-TRANSPARENT control of the vote counting to accomplish whatever purpose they have in mind.

To encourage people to be stupid about this is wrong. To call it "conspiracy theory" and "fearmongering" is wrong. Enlighten, don't frighten. Tell the truth about the voting booth. Give people the facts, and they will take care of the Bushwhacks. Believe me, it's the truth that makes you free.

[demmiblue]

13. You can't vote absentee in MI unless you meet the following criteria:

As a registered voter, you may obtain an absentee voter ballot if you are:

* age 60 years old or older
* unable to vote without assistance at the polls
* expecting to be out of town on election day
* in jail awaiting arraignment or trial
* unable to attend the polls due to religious reasons
* appointed to work as an election inspector in a precinct outside of your precinct of residence.


http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1633-21037--,00.html

[blues90]

18. I don't see integrity in any system we have left .

All everything is about is money , and power and how to sell the best lie to the most people and what man made pile of crap pumped out of some factory is number one today and some fools moment of 15 minutes of fame.

[Peace Patriot]

19. About absentee ballot voting....

Here's the situation:

Half the voting systems in the country have no transparency whatsoever. Votes are recorded on electronic machines, run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by partisan, Republican corporations, with NO paper backup. There is nothing TO count or recount. These are the touchscreen voting machines. They are 100% non-transparent.

The other half of the country's voting systems have a paper ballot or paper trail of some kind, but only 1% of the paper is actually counted by human beings. These are the optiscan systems. These systems are 99% non-transparent.

Absentee ballot voting is no more and no less secure than the second of these two. The AB votes are scanned into the electronic system, just like a vote at the polls on an optiscan machine. 99% of them are tossed in a box and never seen again.

By comparison, consider Venezuela. Venezuela uses electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE code system--anyone may review the code--and they additionally audit a whopping 55% of the paper votes as a check on machine fraud. Some experts say that 10% is the minimum needed to detect fraud. Venezuela counts five the number of votes needed to detect fraud; while we count one-tenth the MINIMUM needed to detect fraud.

So, if your only alternative is a touchscreen, by all means vote by Absentee Ballot, if you can. Also, it's safer to hand-deliver your AB vote to the country registrar, or to your polling place on election day, then sending it through the mail. But do not delude yourself that your AB is safe, in a system that handcounts only 1% of those votes.

A paper ballot, in a largely non-transparent system, with only a 1% handcount, is still something of a deterrent to fraud, but not much of one. It means that if a candidate can overcome the many costs and hurdles to achieve a recount, it MIGHT help to detect fraud. But recounts generally involve only 3% of selected precincts--nowhere near the 10% that some experts say is the MINIMUM needed to detect fraud. Basically, only in the grossest of frauds--many thousands of votes switched or 'disappeared'--will your AB vote or optiscan vote come into play. And, with many of our county/state election officials in the pockets of these rightwing corporate election theft machine manufacturers, they will act to protect corporate interests, not the public.

We need to get rid of these machines AND those election officials who won't reform. Handcounted paper ballots, with results posted at the precinct level, is the best system. Next best--if we can't get rid of the corporate vendors: A paper backup for every vote, and a 100% handcount, as a check on machine fraud. Next best: A minimum 10% handcount.

Another thing we might do, is all vote Absentee (in the 30 or so states where that is permitted) combined with a big citizen movement demanding that all AB votes be 100% hand-counted. Also, lobby for more lenient rules on AB voting (where there are restrictions) and for AB voting in all states.

However, sending your ballot to a central location for counting has perils apart from electronic scanning. The precinct system is best--where votes are first counted, in view of the public, in your local community; results are posted; THEN the ballots go to a central location.

What we have now is very, very, VERY riggable--by the corpos who program the machines--and that includes Absentee Ballot votes.

[Holly_Hobby]

20. Just how long have we been voting in this country?

And we still can't get it right? Hmmmm.....

Somehow, they figured out how to make ATM's infallible. But not voting machines.