Okay this is no knock on Sen. Obama, but I HATE it when men put their hands behind women...

[Captain Hilts]

and steer them around. Ron and Nancy were tops at this.

From today's NYT:

"They walked out onto a riser — Mr. Obama in his trademark white shirt and powder-blue tie, Mrs. Clinton in a blue pantsuit. He guided her about the platform, his hand in the square of her back."

I know he's trying to be polite, but this is one example of Old World Manners that really bothers me. How do women here feel about it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/us/politics/21campaign.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Doesn't bother me at all.

[Lifetimedem]

118. me either

Actually I find it endearing when a man opens a door or stands when a lady enters a room.

I do not feel it is necessary, often I open doors for men, but it shows a level of thoughtfulness that too few people (men or women) have today.

I am secure enough in who I am not to feel it is a put down

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. Let's see -

Are the Phillies in the World Series?

[Captain Hilts]

I'm rooting for them!

[Kerrytravelers]

3. Only speaking for myself, I don't mind it. I never saw it as sexist.

[glowing]

4. He's a gentleman who respects women.. Hillary is a classy woman.

There is nothing wrong with showing respect to her. AND I do believe they genuinely like one another...

[liberalmuse]

5. No problem here. n/t

[napi21]

6. I feel he was showing a sign of inclusiveness. We're together,

I think you're seeing something that's just not there.

[Captain Hilts]

9. No, I'm not seeing anything and I like your statement about...

inclusiveness.

[tblue]

7. Oh, Mookie, please.

[fed_up_mother]

8. No problem for me.

I'm secure enough that I enjoy a bit of chivalry every now and then.

And men are welcome to open the door for me anytime. Good manners may vary from culture to culture, but I appreciate folks who abide by them, anyway. :) Obama's got class. Why should we be surprised that he acts in a "mannerly" fashion?

[Captain Hilts]

15. Well, I open doors for everyone, and I like it when men walk on the curb side of the sidewalk...

so, I enjoy chivalry among the sexes also.

I think the earlier poster's comment about inclusiveness is a good one.

It's just kind of weird to read about a men putting his hand on the small of the back of a woman he's not married to in the NYT.

[JonLP24]

34. Me too

If I'm first to the door and others are behind me I hold the door open for that person. I don't paticularly hold the door open for women and let it slam for men.

[Captain Hilts]

48. Good for you!

[kristopher]

111. As an ESL teacher in Japan

I was often asked by my female students (usually as a jab at Japanese men) about the Western habit of men opening doors for women. Never one to let truth get in the way of a good story, I usually replied that it was a custom with origins in the frontier history of America where a man would open the door and push the woman outside to see if enemies were lurking.

[1]

10. a "man" opened a door for me once... i kicked him in the balls.

who did he think he was?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1]

25. ok. just don't be opening my doors... n/t.

[RB TexLa]

33. I had a woman stop at the door of a 7-11 the other day waited and looked at me when I got there.

I looked at the door and then looked at her and said, "you push to open it."


And she wasn't elderly or unable to physically open the door.

[Texasgal]

128. Gee, I'll bet your a blast at parties.

:eyes:

[RB TexLa]

135. Yes, "gee." The woman is either too stupid to work a door, or she is a sexist pig.

Since she was able to open the door, I'm pretty comfortable in the determination that she is a sexist pig.

[ieoeja]

155. Ha! I have been known to say things like that.

And I will bet you really are a riot at parties (unlike certain sticks-in-the-mud with no sense of humor).

[RollWithIt]

169. Well hey, at least he didn't stand behind her staring at her ass and playing with his wedding ring..

Perspective!

[Beacool]

180. Welllllllll..................

He did at least once. Right after one debate, Hillary walked in front of him and he gave her backside a side-glance. I remember because Jon Stewart noticed it too and included it in his show.

}(

[ThoughtCriminal]

66. So every day I go to the Post Office

When I enter there's often somebody behind me and if I don't hold the door, they may get clobbered or drop their package when it swings back.

50/50 it's a woman. Stay away from me.

[tburnsten]

129. Post of the thread!

[Hekate]

85. He certainly knew who you were afterward. That's an insane level of hostility. nt

[youthere]

102. pssst...

I think they were being sarcastic.

[DRoseDARs]

86. If I had been in his position, I'd've called the cops on you and pressed charges. nt

[youthere]

103. psst....

I'm pretty sure they were being sarcastic.

[cliffordu]

88. Same here. Except it was reversed

After I opened the door for him I kicked him in the junk.

[On the Road]

100. A "Man"?

Did the "man" actually have "balls"?

[youthere]

101. Ohmigawd...

:spray:

:rofl:

[gollygee]

119. People just naturally open the door for people here

I guess I just live somewhere polite? It isn't a gendered thing. If I'm at the door and a man or a woman comes, I open it. Men and women do the same for me, and for other men and women. Or we hold the door open for people coming up behind us.

[ieoeja]

157. psst...

I'm pretty sure they were being sarcastic.

[lumberjack_jeff]

138. LOL! n/t

[RollWithIt]

168. LOL

I just laughed really hard.

[realitythink]

11. WTF are you talking about?

He was the host of "the party", and showing her his respect for her attendance. Jeezuss get over it, the man is not sexist but you might be.

[Mojorabbit]

12. Does not bother me

but then again I still like having my car door opened for me too. I am an outspoken strong minded woman but the little courtesies my husband does show his affection for me. Call me old fashioned.

[Pirate Smile]

13. He is being polite and courteous. If he wasn't, he would get slammed.

I feel just fine about it.

I can't believe anyone is going to criticize him about this.

[Captain Hilts]

65. No, that's not what we're talking about here...

[patrice]

14. I'm Liberal, but I love a bit of courtly manners!

[Captain Hilts]

16. I agree!

[fed_up_mother]

20. Me, too. Our society could use a few more folks with good manners. We've become so crude & vulgar.

Ugh

[Captain Hilts]

53. People are really floored when you use good manners nowadays...

I'm always being asked if I'm in the military or the ministry!

I was reared in a military family. English too!

[FedUpWithIt All]

18. I like it. It does not take anything away from me as a person. n/t

[undergroundpanther]

19. It annoys me

When I was female it felt patronizing like I was fragile or something or unable to walk unassisted.I don't like being led,steered or herded anywhere.

I tend to be very self directing in the way I walk I walk ahead of men or beside never behind unless it's just where I ended up in a line,so most men didn't DARE do that hand on the back to me thing. One did one time and I got irritated I asked him what in the hell are you so pushy about? and he removed his hand immediately.

It's a mild form of domination.That's why it irritates me.

[Warpy]

28. Only if it's done by a man who is neither husband nor boyfriend

Some strange guy puts his hand on me to try to chivvy me someplace he'll withdraw a bloody stump.

However, my ex could get away with it. It was a friendly way of keeping contact in a crowd with him.

[magdalena]

95. This is exactly how I feel.

If it is a man I have a close relationship with - well then I'm a sucker for these kinds of gestures. When strange men do this it is very uncomfortable.

[undergroundpanther]

182. In crowds I hold the person's hand

I usually lead because I can work through a crowd rather skillfully and fast (a cat thing I guess).People I am with elect me to do this.I have done it with a chain of 8 friends behind me. We all snaked our way through a huge crowd to get the bus,arrived 3 minutes early too! It was like running slo-mo crack the whip..at Artscape and no one was separated..
As for doors I open them sometimes they are opened for me.I always open them for people with packages or kids pets.It's funny when we both grab the door however since my gender is androgynous.

[noamnety]

32. Thank you.

You put that much better than I was able to.

[dhpgetsit]

43. I never gave it any thought before.

I rarely do it, but when I do it is usually while walking through a crowd with my wife or son. I think it's a signal to others that there is some level of partnership or companionship and that I don't want us to be separated. It's not a steering or controlling thing.

[Two Americas]

68. agreed

I don't like that herding thing and I agree that it is a form of domination.

[Smarmie Doofus]

21. An odd example, I must say:

>>>Ron and Nancy were tops at this.>>>>

As Nancy was in most respects the dominant partner in the relationship.

[Captain Hilts]

51. Good one!

[JonLP24]

22. It is probaly subconscious rather then a deliberate move

He probaly isn't even thinking about it. I'm a man so my view is probaly off as far as women feel about this.

[iamjoy]

35. No, You're Right

at least in the opinion of this woman.

Hey, sometimes I feel sorry for guys nowadays because you don't know exactly how to treat women. I mean, if you try to do old fashioned courtly stuff like holding open doors, allowing ladies on/off elevators first you get slammed as sexist. If you don't, then you're rude.

Anyway, the language of the article was loaded. Imagine if they replaced "He guided her about the platform, his hand in the square of her back" with "they walked around the platform together..."

If they wanted to face crowds together, one of them had to "lead."

[SeattleGirl]

23. I don't have a problem with it.

I also don't have a problem with having a door opened for me, and besides, I am just as likely to open the door for someone else.

Old World manners are rather refreshing in a world that seems to go too fast, or be too curt or rude sometimes.

And I am quite capable of exhibiting Old World manners myself. It's rather nice, actually, whether one is on the giving or the receiving end.

Edited to add: I don't think he was "steering" her around. I think it was more a connecting thing for him. And I'll bet if she didn't like it, something may have shown on her face or in her body language.

[Jed Dilligan]

31. When I moved from Northern to Southern CA as a teen,

I found the people I was around didn't understand manners. Like if you were polite or offered to share or whatever they found you untrustworthy. Eventually I learned to be rude enough that I didn't scare them. Then I moved back and had to unlearn it. It's all very confusing to me!

[Captain Hilts]

52. I was raised in a military and English family, so I had manners drilled into me...

I've found if you're polite, it really gets people's attention and they're nice to you.

I'd never heard the contrast between northern and southern Calif. before. Interesting!

[shanti]

57. i've not heard of that connection

and i'm a so cal native in nor cal for 24 years now. to me, there is no difference. :shrug:

[ContinentalOp]

76. You just don't notice that everyone thinks you're completely rude and obnoxious.

:P just kidding. I made the opposite trip (born & raised in the north, moved to L.A. at age 17) and never noticed that either. Then again I'm bad at picking up on social cues so I probably didn't notice that people shunned me because of my great manners.

[Jed Dilligan]

133. I guess it depends on your social circle.

I wasn't around the "best and the brightest" in either place, but scumbags in NorCal tend to be civil while scumbags in SoCal tend not to be.

[Shakespeare]

136. I've found quite the opposite to be true.

And it's one of the reasons I happily moved BACK to SoCal from NorCal.

[tburnsten]

132. I know what you mean

It's rough.

[amitten]

24. I appreciate it. It is a gracious sign of respect and kindness. n/t

[noamnety]

26. I get what you are saying.

I know there are a lot of people in this thread saying "it's not sexist, he was the host, he was just being respectful."

They'd likely feel something was off, though, if the tables were turned and she was guiding him around in a similar fashion. It's a weird sort of "respect" we have for women that requires us to treat them like incompetent children.

Obama should have led McCain around like that at the debates, though - McCain actually looked like he did need to be guided around so he wouldn't get lost.

[FedUpWithIt All]

39. I said that i appreciate it but i also DO those things myself.

I would not think it at all strange if she had done the same with him. I tend to lead when i am in a host position or when i am more familiar with the surroundings. I think it is a simply courtesy. I also feel that (with respect to those who do not handle touch in mind) that we could stand a little more connection in our society. The absence of simple courtesies is regrettable and i for one am glad to see that some still appreciate them.

[noamnety]

96. If you understand that some people

do not like to be touched, it's an odd sort of "courtesy" to put your hands on them uninvited.

For many women it's an understandable trigger. I just wouldn't go there.

I think we (big inclusive we, not just you and I) have different views of courtesies and manners. Some people think it means following archaic rules (often founded in patriarchy). Other people think it's not about "rules" so much as respecting people, including respecting their boundaries and making them feel comfortable.

[FedUpWithIt All]

113. But the behavior as described above makes ME comfortable.

That is the issue. Everyone has different lines. When someone (male or female) does the behavior described in the OP it makes me feel welcomed and included. I has some shyness issues and the gesture makes me feel more at ease. So which is correct?

We all have different areas and levels of comfort. I agree (and commented in my previous post) that if someone has a known issue with touch that it should be respected. But to expect that long term human interactions all be changed because a few might be uncomfortable is unrealistic. I know someone who is extremely sensitive to sounds. When people are aware of it they make an effort to prevent loud noises around the person. Most people are not aware of it. This is the way life works.

I was not insinuating that people should go out of their way to touch others but some social signals are very old and done without much thought. There are silent social cues that are universally known in every society on the planet. It is not always an issue of simple manners or courtesies.

As i said i also do the "guide" gesture (unless i am conscience of someones discomfort with it) without much thought when i am either inviting or introducing. Sometimes things are simply not nefarious in their intent. I am sure that even those who have eliminated "traditional" social behaviors would/could offend someone with their replacement behaviors, because the truth is that we ALL have social behaviors.

[noamnety]

160. Given a conflict

between some people being comfortable with acquaintances or strangers putting their hands on them, and others being uncomfortable, I would always err on the side of not touching.

A lot of people - and women in particular - are socialized to put up with stuff like that to be "polite" even if it makes them very uncomfortable, and like I said, even if it is a trigger. If some stranger has groped you, a touch like that is potentially more than just awkward or unwelcome. I am socialized to suck it up and not complain, for example. So one of my superiors always does that shit to me, puts his arm around me, digs his fingers a little into my sides even, and to be honest, my instinct is to slug him. I do NOT want him touching me. But I smile and hug back and wait til it's over while biting my tongue.

Because many (if not most) people who have a strong negative reaction to being touched won't say anything, it's not cool to have the "opt-out" policy (I'll touch anyone I feel like touching at my pleasure, UNLESS they make it known they don't want me to).

I don't know too many people who are triggered by NOT being touched. I do, however, know an awful lot of women who have PTSD issues from being raped, assaulted, harassed, etc. If that wasn't such a pervasive part of our culture, and if it didn't go hand-in-hand with the presumption that women's bodies are kinda-sorta public property for everyone to manhandle, I wouldn't have such strong feelings on the issue.

The cultural tradition is that men feel comfortable putting their hands on women's bodies. I'm not debating that point. I'm just saying that this tradition has both positive and negative ramifications, and I think the burden is always on us to "do no harm" first and foremost.

[FedUpWithIt All]

164. I have PTSD. I have mentioned it on these boards before.

It is often too difficult for me to include myself in new social setting unless a gesture is made to make me feel at ease. Like i said, everyone has their own issues. Mine can be debilitating socially. I was often placed in high violence situations as a child. Now i can be quite hesitant and shy in many unknown social situations. For me a gentle gesture of inclusion and welcome lowers my stress level significantly. It signals that the atmosphere is friendly, calm and non-aggressive. When my partner and i go out to unfamiliar crowded places i nearly ALWAYS hang back and wait for him to lead me. Not because of patriarchal BS but because it takes me some time to acclimate myself.

It is clear that both you and i are speaking from our own experiences and those experiences are very real to each of us. BOTH are legitimate.

I will clarify that the gesture of escorting is not the same as an unwelcome hug. We are speaking of the lightest touch, if in fact there even is a touch. Often it is simply a hand behind a person with no touch involved. It is also a behavior offered by BOTH genders TO BOTH genders. If we were to go into a wider range of social behaviors we might both end up agreeing about line crossing. I was commenting on the OP's observation only.

[Jed Dilligan]

27. I do it all the time. I'm six-seven and my girl is five-three.

It's the best way to get through crowds without losing her.

[Mind_your_head]

29. OP, please describe what you think would be appropriate in its place. eom

[MichaelHarris]

30. I do

it all the time. Sometimes I even keep my hand above the waist.

[NNN0LHI]

36. Ever walked up on to a stage before?

Its not like walking into the kitchen. There are huge cables and other gizmos all over the place. The plywood itself bends a little as you walk on it its so thin. Its dangerous. He was probably doing it as much to steady himself as her. I know I would.

But personally I say yes, ma'am, and no, ma'am, when addressing strange women and I sometimes wonder if I should do that because of what you say?

Don

[readmoreoften]

37. I don't think I quite understand. Men touch women and guide them around?

That's pretty patronizing (literally). No one has ever done it to me, thankfully.

[tazkcmo]

38. I do it

As a way to say "Ladies first" without actually saying it.

[Stinky The Clown]

40. Mookie, I generally agree with you, but we somewhat depart on this.

I see it as polite and courtly.

In the right circumstance.

[Captain Hilts]

54. Yes, I do too.

I think the earlier poster's comment about it being about inclusiveness is a good one.

[Kali]

41. depends on the people and the situation

I have seen men do that to other men lots of times - a host sort of thing guiding them to the bar or into the party...so I think the situation described above is just gentlemanly manners.

Women tend to grab an arm to conduct newcomers around in the same sort of task.

I've also seen domineering men do it to "their" wives - and it was obviously a signal of possession to other men.

[mrcheerful]

46. The custom started with long dresses, because dresses were so large

women had difficulty seeing were they were stepping so gentlemen would "guide" women around obstacles by placing a hand on the small of the lady's back. It is considered ungentlemanly conduct not to do so in polite society at formal get togethers. Etiquette.

[Captain Hilts]

49. Interesting!! I didn't know that...nt

[susanna]

73. Now that is an interesting thing to know. Thanks! n/t

[Withywindle]

79. Still true nowadays, when women wear high heels.

As we are socially expected to do in formal occasions. No matter how much practice you have, it's still a balancing issue.

[Captain Hilts]

107. For that reason I know a gentleman always stands on the lower step of an escalator.

I also do it for people significantly older than I.

[NV Whino]

42. Why is this even a story?

[EC]

44. This used to be known as chivalry,

it is a balance when climbing stairs also, physical therapists use this technique to give security to patients learning to walk again...


I like it, it's a secure feeling yet allows me my space...The only time I hate it is when they put their hands on my hips to guide, that is intrusive and demeaning...

[Peacetrain]

45. No offense, but is this really a "concern"?

just saying. It is not a guiding some one around, but a "you go first", motion

[Captain Hilts]

50. No, it's not a concern. I was just wondering how folks here think about it.nt

[Peacetrain]

59. Okie Doke!! I think it is just a nice way of saying "you go first"

:hi:, and as a woman it has never been anything but that to me. Come to think of it I am pretty sure I have done that to some of my male friends showing them something in the garden etc. It is a common courtesy among friends and family

[AlCzervik]

47. I think it's gentlemanly and gracious.

[jumptheshadow]

97. Agreed

There is something so graceful about a couple who does it. My partner and I do it and neither of us is a guy!

[susanna]

55. My husband does it in certain situations.

Usually it's when it is a crowded place where things are a little chaotic. So I don't find it odd in the slightest. Truth be told, if I'm behind my husband for any reason in the same type of situation, I instinctively do it. I've always thought it was probably a "guarding" instinct we have for those close to us. If it's a manners thing, I am not aware of it. I could be wrong, I am certainly not Emily Post, LOL. :-)

on edit: better word choice

[Captain Hilts]

61. You do it to him too. that's the first we've gotten of that, but it makes sense in a crowd...

to have him lead the way! In the NBA it's a rolling pic, in a crowd, it's just practical.

[susanna]

71. Exactly - DH and I chatted about it just now.

He said it's always seemed to him like our personal code for "I've got your back." I tend to agree. I never really even thought about it, so your post was really interesting!

on edit: subject needed a change

[marions ghost]

81. your husband OK...

but a strange guy?

I think it's obnoxious and controlling if you don't know the person very well. I'm sure Barack only meant it with Hill as a friendly gesture, but he should watch being as touchy-feely as Dubya. It can backfire.

:thumbsdown:

All I can say is the men I like and respect do not do this. I think it's especially not appropriate in a business or professional situation or when you're with the Chancellor of Germany. OK on the dance floor at Fred Astaire. Or if crossing a ditch to get into your pumpkin.

Uncool if it's more than a brief moment IMO. The trouble is that sleezeballs do this little number a LOT. They may not realize that women don't all like it since sleezeballs are narcissist and oblivious to begin with.

I had it done to me once with the message of "can't we be friends?" in an adversarial business situation. I instinctively elbow-jabbed the guy (not hard) and he backed off (instinctively).
Nothing more was said.

[susanna]

83. We'll have to be on different sides of this, I guess.

Someone doing it in an adversarial business situation? I'd kick their ass. That's completely and totally different than what is being discussed, IMHO. I don't see everything under one light, in other words. It's all in the context.

In other words: if it bothers you - or feels controlling - by all means Shut.It.Down. She didn't! I wouldn't! So in many ways, it's a moot point.

In case you didn't actually read my post, you should know that I do the same thing to my husband in certain situations. He doesn't run crying like a baby calling me a ball-busting-soandso. We're just looking out for one another.

And, as a final note, I find it really hard to believe that to Hillary, Obama is some "strange guy." Just saying.

on edit: subject edit

[marions ghost]

94. I said it was obviously a show of friendliness

between Barack and Hillary. If you read my post.

Considering the reactions here, even if Hillary didn't like it, she could have been criticized if she had visibly brushed him off. Hillary is a master of self-control.

This conversation includes looking at the question of this "steering" behavior in general, in order to define the fine line that is so often crossed (which is why the OP brought it up...because it is often crossed).

I've encountered many men who use this technique to show dominance and control, or sometimes just "possession." Usually they are very insecure men.

Nice men like Barack need to be cautious about doing this too much. Even husbands, fathers and significant others need to be cautious--at times--about doing this. ;-)

[susanna]

185. I can understand what you're saying.

I think I tried to make it clear that in my situation, we do it as a quid pro quo arrangement, and ONLY in situations where we may feel a bit encroached upon. When we're doing anything else, he doesn't do it, and I don't do it; so I have never felt patronized as a result.

Interestingly, my father (a mannerly gentleman of the old, old school) never did it to me, though he did to my mother and sometimes, to my sister. I asked him why once and he said: "I always knew that you could take care of yourself." So kudos to him, I guess! Though he adores my husband and loves that we practice a give/take on this sort of thing. :-)

on edit: typo

[Beregond2]

56. Really, doesn't one's reaction to things like this depend entirely

on who is doing it? If the man was domineering and sexist by nature, it would be offensive. If he was just courteous, not so.

I am in a somewhat strange position regarding all this, being gay and very tall. My natural tendency is to be rather protective and "guiding" when with people smaller than me, male or female; which is most people. The only people that ever resent it are very small guys, who see it as condescending.

[Captain Hilts]

63. Now, that's interesting. nt

[boppers]

58. Trained (male) Dancer here.

One leads, one follows.

If she was in the lead, she would have guided him.

This isn't sexism, it's practical, as well as a publicly noted way to express lead, and follow.

All that being said, I can see how it might be interpreted as sexism, if for thousands of years, women did not lead, and men did not follow. (As has happened).

If you see a really good dance troupe, or even couple, you can watch this power dynamic shift on stage, with different power exchanges happening in complex dances. Watch a troupe with nothing but women, and you'll see lead, and follow, as well.

On a personal note, I find it incredibly comforting when Ms Bop places her hand and guides me. I'm more than happy to let her lead.

[Captain Hilts]

62. I know the waltz was the lambada of its day becasue no one leads and no one follows-scandal!!!!

[boppers]

72. ..and yet professional waltz/lambada dancers still use cues.

Hand twitches, eye signals, etc.

You wanna see no-lead dancing, find a mosh pit. :D

Oh, wait, the pit "alphas" (men or women) set the tempo.

It's a bit like accepting them moves of power in a boardroom. While there are, and always will be, cues as to power and dominance, until we become a "flat-power" society, there will always be actions and behavior associated with a hierarchical society, which has, for the most part, been dominated by "men".

[JanusAscending]

60. Damn sure ! Hell , I wish he were steering me around!!

This man is a GENTLEMAN !!, and I'm jealous!:evilgrin: P.S. He is a "human touch" kind of guy if you haven't noticed. I see pictures of him everywhere touching people,(not just shaking hands)on their shoulders, or arms. He hugs older women, and puts his hands on childrens heads.I find it very touching, almost like a benediction!

[faithfulcitizen]

116. Me too! I think it's sexy in a chivalrous way. You know she likes it too. ;)

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

64. Cindy has to steer Johnny around

I guess that means the feminist vote has to go to McSame now.

[AnAnonymousDemocrat]

67. I think it can be a sign of affection, and I think it's nice. It doesn't bother me at all. n/t

[fourvahl]

69. It depends

on if they are trying to guide you out the door when you want to stay or if they are just trying to be respectful. I don't know about guiding across the platform or what have you but I've seen Obama put his arm behind other men as well. (Don't jump on me.. not trying to suggest anything) I think it can be a kind gesture of respect and caring or a body gesture of telling someone they have the floor to speak.

[Lord Helmet]

70. he's an old school gentleman

[Captain Hilts]

74. Usually.

[fizzgig]

75. i like it when my boyfriend does that

i don't think it's conscious at all, but it makes me feel cares about me...it's really hard for me to explain. my dad has always put his hand on the back of my neck when we're in a crowd or trying to cross the street and i feel it's a compassion thing.

[drexel dave]

77. MUCH bigger fish to fry

than this.

There's things that women do that annoy men, but pointing them out might get us labeled misogynist, so we just stay quiet.

[Withywindle]

78. Depends on the man, depends on the relationship!

A husband, boyfriend, father, friend....Fine! (I'm an only child but if I had a brother it would be fine too.)

Random creepy man (like * groping Angela Merkel)....Not fine!

It's an intimate, affectionate, protective gesture. It's loaded. It has meaning. I feel like it's inappropriate IF we don't know each other well enough that we trust the gesture has a meaning we agree on.

edit: I also want to add, I do it to men I know too. Especially my theoretical "ex." I can't help it. The small of his back is very inviting. If he didn't like it, I trust he'd tell me.

[marions ghost]

82. I thought of Angela Merkel too....

there's such a fine line between "guiding" and "creepy touching."

I agree with how you put it--we have to AGREE on the meaning of it. There's a boundary thing going on. If it crosses the boundary, it's domineering behavior.

I notice that Sarah Palin doesn't seem to care for the steering gesture coming from McThing. She edges away from him in the videos. :)

[Captain Hilts]

145. Interesting about Palin!

[Book Lover]

80. Maybe it's the New Yorker in me, but

if you are not my close relative or a good and dear friend, keep your hands the eff off me.

[FrenchieCat]

84. He does it to everyone, no matter the gender.

IT's called being polite.

See here....at the very end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2m6nP8my1M&feature=related

[Hekate]

87. It looks courtly to me. Also, in contrast to McCain-Palin, it says he's in charge....

Which he IS. Barack Obama is the Presidential candidate.

When Sarah Palin bounces ahead of John McCain onto the stage it says: "Hey! look at ME! I'm the one you want to see!" McCain plods behind like her grandpa. This is really odd, because SHE is the Vice Presidential candidate and is NOT the one supposed to be in charge.

You may be reacting to a couple of things with Obama using this courtly gesture. It may simply be because you dislike being touched in public by someone unrelated to you. Or you may dislike being steered. Or you may be reading the "I'm in charge" message in a gendered manner, so that even though he IS the guy we want as President, women are still struggling with gendered messages.

Me, I have issues about too much touching from nonfamily members. However, I like seeing Obama acting the gentleman, because unlike Bush he actually is one.

(And I love having someone open a door for me when my hands are full. Before my shoulder surgeries I used to hope that someone would spare me from having to do it myself.)

Hekate

[JI7]

89. he does that with men also

[Captain Hilts]

106. Yes, he does. nt

[Faux pas]

90. Would you like it better if he'd shoved her out of the way and

walked ten paces ahead of her? Just wondering.

[Captain Hilts]

105. No one is saying that.

[Faux pas]

115. Sorry, my lame attempt at being facetious.

[Captain Hilts]

144. And it was probably 2am when I read it - no harm, no foul!

Keep up the Good Fight!

[Waiting For Everyman]

91. It's nice.

There are too few gentlemen already.

[TexasObserver]

92. Men are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Obama is doing what he thinks he needs to do.

If he didn't do it, there would be people getting offended about that, and he gets the double whammy of being both male and black.

No one will ever ask why a woman didn't hold the door, or the chair for a man.

Personally, I find the whole notion of men holding doors for women to be repulsive. Whoever is in a position to get the door, male or female, should hold it for whoever is next, male or female. And if a women takes offense at a man holding the door for her, he should let the door go immediately, with whatever consequences that entails.

[Captain Hilts]

177. I agree with you on how everybody should hold doors for the next person...

That this custom is sex-based is ludicrous. I hate it when a young girl will just let a door slam in front of me. She should hold it for whomever is behind her.

But the custom of men placing their hands at the back of women while walking is an archaic one I don't care for. You rarely see it the other way around while walking. To me, ultimately, it's posessive and directive. It's very Ron and Nancy and Lucy and Ricky.

You are right about men being damned if they do, damned if they don't. They should take Sec. of State James Byrnes advice about dealing with VIPs: those that mind, don't matter. Those that matter, don't mind. Same with women here.

Keep up the Good Fight!

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. Aussie PMs get in trouble for doing it with the Queen, so it isn't seem as 'polite' by some

Australia's Prime Minister, John Howard, has denied making a protocol blunder by putting his arm around the Queen.

In an incident reminiscent of the one involving former Premier Paul Keating in 1992, the cameras caught Mr Howard giving the Queen a helping hand at Canberra's Parliament House.

It was in the capital's Parliament building that Mr Keating earned the nickname "Lizard of Oz" with his touch of the Royal back during the Queen's last tour to Australia.

But Mr Howard is adamant that his hand did not touch the Queen as he was introducing her to MPs at a VIP reception.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/692302.stm

So if the Queen, who gets respected, and not patronised, is meant to be off limits, there is a case that all women (and men, for that matter) ought to be treated as she is.

[Captain Hilts]

104. I forgot all about that kerfuffle! Yes, I remember that one. You don't 'guide' the Queen! nt

[LWolf]

98. Neutral.

I don't care for it myself, but it's a cultural norm.

[youthere]

99. I like it when my husband does that for me.

I appreciate the touch. It's like he's telling me that, in the middle of whatever craziness that might be going on around us, I'm still a priority to him.
That didn't quite capture how it makes me feel, but I'm not really very eloquent but I hope I at least landed in the ballpark.

[lunatica]

108. It's something men do to each other too. It's not sexist

It's a sign of liking the person in our society. It's one of the very few ways that are acceptable for Americans to touch each other, but only if they know and respect each other. Women do it to women too. I touch people on the back just like that when I like them.

[gollygee]

109. I don't mind if my husband does it, but I'd probably flip out if some random guy did it

Touching is nice between partners.

I should add that I don't like the idea of being "guided", but is that really what was happening or did the writer of that comment read into it? I'd be pissed off if my husband guided me around like a dog.

[Tutankhamun]

110. I like to push the door shut in front of them.

It's playful and it's funny. Or if she drops something, like a pen for example, I like to pick it up as for her, then just throw it back on the ground where it was and stand there while she cracks up.

[AirmensMom]

112. Obama can guide me anytime he wants to.

:evilgrin:


Not only that, but I find "Old World Manners" charming. It's so rare to see manners of any kind these days.

[Lorien]

114. I was at the Orlando rally yesterday and saw Obama with his hand on

Hillary's back. He was watching their steps while she was shaking hands and talking to people. The platform was temporary and there was a crush of people everywhere. He was just being certain that she didn't trip over a cable in that crush of people. It was polite, not condescending. Besides, he's a lot taller than she is; so he could see where they were headed much more easily than she could.

[AngryAmish]

117. I gotta say that there are some odd ducks around here

[tilsammans]

120. It's a warm and protective gesture

After all the slings and arrows during the campaign for the nomination, it's a gesture that demonstrates friendliness and caring.

:dem:

[Scout]

124. one person's "friendliness and caring" could be

another person's possessiveness and control.

:shrug:

[marlakay]

121. I was raised by my parents to have old fashioned

manners, at the table and other times so it doesn't bother me. Obama also knows the correct places to put his hands when he gently and politely touches someone.

when i first started working in the 70's i have had a few male bosses touch you on your shoulder or arm when its not right and you know it especially when they call you honey.

[ensho]

122. I hate it - have always hated it.

and usually ask the man to stop doing it.

[SmokingJacket]

123. I hate it when men do that to me; I step away.

However, I think as another poster said: it's a sign of inclusiveness, not "steering," in Obama's case.

[JNelson6563]

125. Doesn't bother me.

Of course only those who are near and ear to me have done such. I've always viewed it as a protective and somewhat affectionate gesture.

Julie

[msanthrope]

126. I saw a clip of this--she was looking up and waving to the crowd,

he seemed like he was making sure she didn't trip--

It was a protective gesture, but not a patronizing one. Frankly, I like the imagery of those two being closer, more comfortable with each other....

[undeterred]

127. I like it when men walk a respectful five paces behind me

(except to catch up and open the door for me or throw their coat down over a puddle for me). And I like men who speak only when spoken to, those are the best kind. :hi:

[cherokeeprogressive]

139. Silly Sally is sooooo silly. She thinks men walk behind her out of respect.

She just has an alluring wiggle.

[Captain Hilts]

143. I haven't heard a Silly Sally joke in YEARS!

[undeterred]

146. I've never heard one.

[pitohui]

130. it really bothers me a lot but i'm not in politics, yanno?

i don't like people touching on me except in a sexual context in privacy

i realize the culture has moved another way, and we're all supposed to be warm and touchy feely and all that, but no, i don't like it, and no, i don't want to "hug" either

i don't see this as worth getting upset about tho, the battle has long been lost, and everyone who is warm and wonderful has to apparently prove it by being all touchy

look how long donald trump's career in politics lasted r once it was revealed he hated touching people, even babies -- hate to agree w. trump on any issue but on that one yes, i hate touching people, even babies, it just isn't me

i think obama and hillary are both warm, open people and don't have these thoughts or hang-ups so not worth worrying about in my view

[tburnsten]

131. An ex-girlfriend used to freak out on me

Any time I excercised what I was brought up to consider common courtesy, such as holding doors open for her, or offering her a hand when she somehow fell down on a sidewalk. It was July or August and we were 17 and 18 at the time, I have no idea how it happened, but she was MAD when I offered to give her a hand up and asked if she was ok. I couldn't understand the level of hostility or the irrational reaction to something as simple as aking if your significant other is OK after she took a nasty spill onto a sidewalk. Maybe I'm just some sort of troll-man who is too used to clubbing my women and dragging them back to my cave, I don't know.


I think you are being overly sensitive, I sincerely doubt that there is any sexism inherent in Obama's dealings with Hillary Clinton or anyone else, and whatever thoughts you have on old-fashioned common courtesy, you need to understand that not everyone thinks about it with the same ire that you do. So if a man in your life does something that offends you unintentionally, please don't react to him the way my ex reacted to me. It is over the top and unneccessary, and what is the point of introducing hostility into your personal relationships because not everyone else is a Womynist?

[Captain Hilts]

147. Your ex girlfriend had an attitude problem...

I'm just asking peoples' reactions.

I agree the gesture here is to be inclusive. You're seeing ire from me where there isn't any.

Folks here seem to all agree he did it for the right reasons, but that context is everything. Some women here don't care for the gesture but agree his intent is good.

So, I'm not sure where you're seeing anger.

[tburnsten]

150. Sorry then

I think I posted right after reading the "a "man" held the door for me so I kicked him in the balls" post.

[Captain Hilts]

151. I'm sorry that was your introduction to the thread!

Keep up the Good Fight - and holding doors open!

[tburnsten]

178. Well I'm married now

And this one certainly doesn't mind me being polite. The ex's mother became a lesbian later in life after two very much failed relationships that produced her and her two younger sisters, so I think there were some pressures and internal conflicts I never truly understood, and probably never could. Oh well.



I was just very alarmed at the prospect of being kicked in the jewels over what to me is common courtesy. I think I might agree with you as far as hands on the back goes though, I'm not terribly comfortable with unsolicited contact.

[justiceischeap]

134. I think there should be more chivalry than less

One of the things my friends tease me about is being so polite. I say it's because polite is dying out and someone needs to continue doing it.

It only bothers me when men do this and are being condescending about it.

[Scout]

140. Chivalry: a man's inclination to protect a woman from every man but himself. n/t

[goddess40]

158. I like that

Thanks

[Infinite Hope]

137. Get a grip. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

148. No, read the thread and there is general agreement Sen. Obama is being courteous...

even while some women here don't care for the gesture.

[BlooInBloo]

141. In my experience, more girls like boys treating them like girls than not...

Others' experience may differ, I suppose.

[NuttyFluffers]

142. i've seen this as a sexually neutral bit of intimacy and kindness...

some people do try to overlay it with excessive tones. but i've usually encountered it by people who generally are trying to help the people they care about keep up with a confusing crowd of people. it wasn't necessarily sexually specific, but then i'm used to SF Bay Area where men or women doing this to either another man or woman isn't really all that unusual. so there's steering seen, and some of it is couples, but it all can't be couples. so the rest comes off as just kindness among friends to me. i guess it could bug some people. but since it's really about their intimacy in their relationship -- and it seems to be consensual and harmless -- it's none of my business. therefore i cannot possibly care about this in any remote shape or form.

[CTyankee]

153. Hmm, hetero older woman here. I would consider doing this with my husband and

he does the same with me, especially if we're moving through a crowd somewhere.

I don't do it with women friends. I did do it with my elderly mother who grew so old and frail I had to walk with her with one arm around her and holding her hand with the other. I see it as a protective gesture. I would probably do it with my grandchildren, male and female...

[prayin4rain]

149. I certainly don't like it in a professional environment

if it's my husband at dinner fine.

[Missy Vixen]

152. It's good manners

It's not in the least threatening, and the touch involved is typically nothing but a brush of fingertips in the small of the back. I have seen Barack Obama assist his wife while they are onstage or at a campaign event. He treats her with courtesy and respect, and he expects others to do the same. Contrast this with the way John McCain treats his wife: He can't be bothered. She is always walking behind him. I was scared for her after the debate the other night -- she's walking down a flight of carpeted stairs in very high heels. Alone. Do you honestly think this is a better thing -- treating your spouse like a groupie, for God's sake?

Then again, I like it when men open the door for me, offer to help me lift something heavy or awkward, or whatever. I open the door for whomever is walking behind me, but it's a nice thing to say "Thank you" to some guy who's just opened the door for me. They look a little shocked.

I've also discovered that those who say "please" and "thank you" to those in the service industry are often greeted with, "You are the first person today who said "please" and "thank you" to me."

If everyone had better manners, the world would be a nicer place.

Julie

[yankeeinlouisiana]

154. Don't get social graces and sexism mixed up.

It's just one more way people can be nice to each other.

[renie408]

163. Exactly. n/t

[loyalsister]

156. I don't like it

I think opening doors has become a gender neutral courtesy.
But, the guiding and any other "old world manners" that have not tranferred across gender lines are offensive.
If it is a social action only directed toward women, it suggests a sort of exclusion just by virtue of the phsycological impact of different treatment.

I don't think it is intentional and that is the very problem. It is symbol of an implied power that the majority has to herd the lesser assumed to be lesser qualified- over there.

[ieoeja]

159. Did it for a blind guy once asking directions to the stairs. He got PISSED!

Did not like some stranger touching him. I hadn't thought of that before, but it sure made a boatload of sense.

With regards to a woman it *would* have occurred to me. So, ladies, be forewarned, If I'm touching you, I probably have an agenda.

Wanna play tag?

:evilgrin:

[A HERETIC I AM]

161. I agree. The last thing we need more of in this world is....

"Old World" manners, grace, charm and politeness.





.
.





.
..
I would hope the last thing I need to add is one of these, but here ya go anyway :sarcasm:

[renie408]

162. Doesn't bother me. I like having doors opened, chairs pulled out, and help with jackets.

[Captain Hilts]

167. I like help with my jacket, and men are often surprised when I help them too-social reciprocity. nt

[Azlady]

165. I see nothing wrong... I

do not see it as an insult, I was part of the womens rights movement in the 60-70's.... I use to rip a man apart if he tried to open a door for me. I realized over time that perhaps I was being a little extreme. A gentleman, is a gentleman, his Mother, Grandmother & Grandfather did a good job bringing Barack up. I do not view this as sexist or belittling at all.

[MadMaddie]

166. I like it.

I don't think Hillary minded it.

I think basic manners are missing in American culture.

If a man wants to pull out a chair for me (even though I don't play on his time) I don't mind.

If a man wants to hold open a door for me, I don't mind and I always say thank you. Many men are shocked to get a thank you.

We need civility and manners in this country and we should be teaching this to our children.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

172. Me too.

Agree with your post and would add: I'm a woman and I hold doors. It's just common courtesy.

[RollWithIt]

170. Well hey, at least he didn't stand behind her staring at her ass and playing with his wedding ring..

Perspective!

[annunakigohome]

171. "Old World Manners?!" Better than New World Boorishness

How many young men have walked in front of me as we board the bus? How many have allowed me to stand while they sit on their bytch azzes? I respect men who treat me like a woman. I am as feminist as they come, but this has nothing to do with women's rights. It's just NICE.

[Catherine Vincent]

173. Obama can put his hands on me anytime he pleases.

:-)

[cynatnite]

174. That's not steering...it's showing affection, IMO.

My husband does that and it's affectionate.

[volstork]

175. "Ron and Nancy were tops at this."

But it was Nancy leading him around by the pull string so she could make his mouth move.

[carlyhippy]

176. I grew up in the south, I would be offended if he didn't do this

or hold open a door. A while back a very elderly man who could barely stand held a door open for me, I was appreciative, but also very sad that it just doesn't happen that much anymore, same with an older gentleman calling a younger woman Darlin or something to that effect, just doesn't happen anymore.

[Captain Hilts]

181. With our elders it's a whole different thing. I, too, would have thanked him profusely, BUT...

one time a man held a door open for me and expected me to squeeze under his arm to go through the door. I declined and he got pissed off. Sorry, I'm not getting that close to someone's armpit, particularly a stranger.

On the Moscow subway, younger people ALWAYS stand to give a seat to their elders. Elderly men actually will accept a seat from a young woman under these circumstances. They fought in the Great Patriotic War and don't feel they have to prove anything. They think they've earned it, and they have!

[BlueIris]

179. Any person who does not have explicit permission to touch me and chooses to touch me

anyway (very rude and creepy) will probably regret it.

[Geek_Girl]

183. I don't like being touched. But I do like having the door opened for me

Men standing when you enter a room. Men waiting for me to go first and things like that.

[annabanana]

184. It's fine with me... I also kind of like it when a man lends me his

elbow as we walk...