The Hooverville thread: How much money did you lose since the CRASH?

[Generic Other]

I got my latest statement dated September 30. This doesn't reflect the October numbers.

I am an educator. 5 to 10 years from retirement. I lost 35K. That's three times more money than my father earned in his best year of employment. And I suspect I lost a lot more since then. My mother lives with me because she could no longer remain independent on the retirement she received from SS and my father's military pension. My father served in the military for 24 years and earned 2 bronze stars. My mother receives $260.00 per month widow's benefit.

Anyone else wanna step forward and share some hard numbers? The greed, corruption and incompetence of the Bush administration, the rightwing Congress, Wall Street and every irresponsible Republican voter brought us to this moment in time.

We are not a family living on tax write-offs or corporate welfare. We are hard working Americans who scrimped and saved to provide for ourselves in our old age.

I KNOW MY FAMILY IS NOT ALONE. Please share your family's story on this thread.

[RPM]

1. Havent lost anything yet.

As I haven't sold.

As for paper losses.... well...

[Generic Other]

3. That paper is in some fatcat's pocket and I am mad at the theft

My pension. Yours. Not theirs. They walk away with everything. Bush. Cheney. Halliburton. Carlysle.

Well they forgot one thing. When enough of us little folks go down, the whole goddamn system goes down! Trickle that up you assholes who caused this financial disaster! I will dance on the ruins of your institutions!

[RPM]

76. I don't think you don't know what I mean...

A paper loss is one that is on paper, i.e., not realized. A loss isnt a realized loss until the sale out of the position is made. Put another way, if I buy at 10 and sell at 5, I lose 5; if I buy at 10 and it goes to 5 and I later sell at 20, I gain 10 and lose nothing despite being down 5 "on paper" at some point.

So long as it eventually goes up, it will not be a loss...

Point of relevance is that it is not a loss for income tax purposes till I sell (nor would it be a gain until I sell).

[grannie4peace]

2. i'm glad i don't have a retirement pension. i walked out on a bully for a boss in 2004.

so, i lost my pension i was working for by 6mo., i rolled over my equivalent to a 401k & when i turned 60 took it out .i lost all profit it had made from 2000. about $ 4,000 from 14,000. i start collecting $739.00 a mo. this month. so that is what i have to work with. the $10,000. is long gone.

[Generic Other]

4. They live on stolen money as far as I am concerned

Thanks for sharing your story. We can be neighbors in the new Hooverville. Do you like rice? My mom always makes extra.

[grannie4peace]

5. if mcshit wins, i'm leaving

[RadicalTexan]

13. Me, too

I want to go to Canada or back to the UK. Not that this collapse won't affect them, too - but at least they have healthcare and nowhere near 50% of their populations are stupid enough to vote for these clowns.

[grannie4peace]

i was thinking of bc

someone here mentioned belize but i don't like hurricanes :):)

[RadicalTexan]

27. Yeah, I am trying to convince my boyfriend

that BC is better than Montreal or Toronto. Too cold for my Southern self. And, I can't seem to get through his head that you have to speak French to live/work in Montreal. Ha ha.

[grannie4peace]

29. me too & my daughters live in idaho

& i can't speak anything but english

[SidDithers]

50. You don't need French in Montreal...

There are very, very few French-only speakers in Montreal. Almost everyone you would interact with would have enough English for you to be unaffected by a language barrier.

Cheers.

Sid

Edit: Now, Quebec City or the Eastern Townships? That's a different story :)

[Warpy]

53. And if you speak Parisian French, good luck

I have friends from France who said they had to switch to English when they visited distant cousins outside Quebec City.

While I think they probably caught the drift--I always did--the dialect is so different that it was very slow going.

[tavalon]

94. If McCain steals it (In a fair fight, he's already lost),

British Columbia will double it's population. We should have an ExPats luncheon after we get settled. I've gone so far as to research the viability of moving to Canada and luckily, my number is high enough. It feels good not to feel trapped here. Makes it easier to stay for now.

[NEDem]

6. On paper

I've 'lost' about 8,000.

[Generic Other]

11. Why do you call this on paper? This is invested pension money

Is it not real money? I am not understanding the distinction. I have been working for twenty years and slowly watching the investment grow. Enough to fund some probably meager retirement. Are you saying that was not real money taken from my paycheck for twenty years?

[NEDem]

32. Until I cash it in

it's not 'real money'. It exists only on paper. Yes you have had 'real money' taken out of your paycheck, but the gains exist only on paper until you cash it in and the gains are realized.

I don't like losing it either, but I went into the 401K with the full understanding of the risks (and rewards) that went along with it. I am probably a few years further from retirement than you are, and I do think it sucks that people are losing so much, I think someone needs to go to jail over this, but at the same time I knew the risks and I need to accept the consequences.

I'm not speaking to your situation, just mine.

[slackmaster]

35. How much did you gain from January 2000 - March 2003?

If you have actually had steady gains over 20 years, you must have done something to actively time the market.

Are you saying that was not real money taken from my paycheck for twenty years?

You chose where to invest that money, and no matter what happens you deferred paying income tax on those earnings.

[Generic Other]

44. I am talking about my pension fund not a 401K.

I am guilty of financial ignorance, I guess. I assumed money in a pension would be there when I retired. I should have known better, deserve to lose everything. Stupid old me.

[slackmaster]

120. I'm sorry for your losses

People who are loudly critical of the substitution of 401ks for traditional defined-benefit pension plans often aren't aware that those plans are not absolutely guaranteed either.

Even cash in the mattress evaporates due to inflation. The deck is stacked against all but the super-wealthy.

[Two Americas]

54. don't be fooled

Of course it is real money. The idea of "paper money" and "you knew the risks" is an anti-working class "free market" argument. There is so much that we have no control over - falling wages, crumbling infrastructure, devalued dollar, inflated housing and food and fuel costs, fewer protections for workers, and this "personal responsibility" bullshit is a lie, as well as being cruel, immoral and politically reactionary. The idea that of people had played their cards right, or were smarter there would be no problem is the age-old argument of the bosses, of the wealthy and powerful few.

[Generic Other]

61. Today was the first time I heard it wasn't real money

so thank you for clarifying.

I think you are right that the "personal responsibility" crap is a bit much coming from the very people whose irresponsible behavior caused the problem. They rip you off then they chastise you for not being smarter with your money. I guess we middleclass working Americans losing our retirements are too stupid to deserve to be treated fairly and equitably.

[Two Americas]

63. it depends

"Real money" and real value is what you must give to them, or you will starve, but once it is in their hands it is just a fiction. Of course their mansions and yachts are not imaginary, nor is your pink slip or eviction notice.

Or at least that is what I would say were I speaking from the traditional Democratic party and Labor point of view.

[Hekate]

65. And that's the truth. nt

[Two Americas]

67. "Oh, you can't scare me..."

Oh, you can't scare me. I'm sticking to the union.

Union Maid

There once was a union maid
Who never was afraid
Of goons and ginks and company finks
Or deputy sheriffs who made the raid.
She went to the union hall
When a meeting it was called,
And when the company boys came around
She always stood her ground.

Oh, you can't scare me. I'm sticking to the union,
I'm sticking to the union, I'm sticking to the union,
Oh, you can't scare me. I'm sticking to the union,
I'm sticking to the union, till the day I die.

This union maid was wise
To the ways of company spies.
She'd never be fooled by the company stools,
She'd always organize the guys,
She'd always get her way
When she struck for higher pay,
She'd show her card to the company guard,
And this is what she'd say,

Oh, you can't scare me. I'm sticking to the union,
I'm sticking to the union, I'm sticking to the union,
Oh, you can't scare me. I'm sticking to the union,
I'm sticking to the union, till the day I die.

This union maid had fought
With Pinkertons and cops.
She was hit on the head and called a Red,
But she never ever thought to stop.
She spent some time in jail,
No one could go her bail,
But when she was out she'd let out a shout
And the bosses heard her wail:

Oh, you can't scare me. I'm sticking to the union,
I'm sticking to the union, I'm sticking to the union,
Oh, you can't scare me. I'm sticking to the union,
I'm sticking to the union, till the day I die.

"But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them." - FDR

[Hekate]

68. We need a new labor movement like nobody's business, don't we?

My late father was an aircraft worker for Lockheed for 44 years, and when he died he left Mom a nice pension--thanks to the union, not the bosses. By the time I started college, we had good medical benefits through Kaiser Permanente--thanks to the union, and I had access to a Kaiser clinic near my university for a $4 co-pay.

My former husband was in the Hotel and Restaurant Workers' Union, and we had Kaiser medical benefits. Our two kids were born in a Kaiser hospital, and I think we paid all of $70 for the delivery and hospitalization (1975 and 1979) for each of them.

Without union benefits, we would have been peons.

I worked in two places where my job was exempt from union membership, because as a confidential secretary to the boss I was presumed to be privy to too much information. ahem. However I benefitted from union negotiations for my class, because my salary and benefits could not fall behind what had been negotiated for others.

As for the pensions... what a lot of people who've never been in a union don't understand is that those are negotiated as part of a package, and the usual bargain is: take a somewhat lower salary now, in promise of more money going into the pension fund. The fact that bankrupt companies like Bethlehem Steel were allowed to raid the pension fund on their way out was beyond outrageous. It told all who would listen that more than the union contract had been broken: the Social Contract had been smashed as well.

Btw -- screw Ronald Reagan for breaking the backs of the unions.

Hekate

[Two Americas]

74. it will happen

For the first time in decades, I do not feel like I am swimming against the current all the time - other than here, strangely enough.

These things tend to go in 40 year cycles. There are still enough old timers who remember how it was, and a new generation of people now are seeing the need.

I am in red, red farming country, and everyone is saying "we need another New Deal" and "we are headed for a depression" and "the wealthy people have screwed all of us" and most importantly - the culture of greed is morally wrong, and what is happening to the poor and the elderly is morally wrong.

What is a whisper today will inevitably become a thunderous roar.

[Generic Other]

79. Thank you for posting that song...here is a banner I made in her honor

[Two Americas]

83. thanks

Very nice. Love the roller skates, and the sashes - "Don't be a scab."

[eridani]

98. Oh, there once was a union cat--

Who on the table sat
At contract talks
And for a box
She'd often use the boss's hat.
She wore a union sign
When she walked the picket line
At the running dogs of the capitalist system
She arched her back and hissed 'em.

Songs of the Cat--Garrison Keillor

[Two Americas]

113. lol

That is Keillor for you - finding a rhyme for "system."

Thanks eridani.

[bertman]

95. Two Americas, i have to take issue with your characterization. You are right that there

is very little control the average worker who invests in the market has over the things you mention. But, simply put, he/she has the ultimate control: to invest or not to invest.

There are many ways to prepare for one's financial retirement such as buying real estate, buying and renting homes or commercial property, opening small businesses, saving. It does not take a lot of money to do these things. I know because I have friends who have been doing this for years and have reaped the rewards. Granted, they all entail risks and often demand sacrifice or extra work on the part of the individual who is working this plan, but all investments are risky to a degree.

Many of the folks who bought in to the idea of investing in stocks, CD's, money market, treasury bonds, etc. have done very well for themselves. Many have lost their asses. That's the risk factor of that investment game.

Too many people are looking for the easy way to financial security. The marketing of these "investment vehicles" is very clever and convincing. And a lot of us have bought into it. And a lot of folks who bought into it were exuberant with the various bubbles that came and went as the stock market consistently made them money--over the long term. So many of these folks also bought into the idea that less regulation and less government would be good for THEIR POCKETBOOKS. They voted Republican and supported the smaller government theory. Well, so much for that.

We have been through some serious recessions in the last 30 years and have come out of them mostly intact financially. That still could happen now. I hope it does. But I also hope that this lesson about laissez-faire financial regulation will be embedded in our psyche so we don't allow ourselves to get too enamored with the markets.

Bottom line: everybody makes their own decisions about personal investments. When they don't work out it isn't anybody's fault but their own. And I include myself in that group.

Diversify.

[Two Americas]

110. sure

But what place does personal investment advice have in a political discussion, unless it it a discussion among Republicans?

You say "diversify" to attain "personal security."

I say "organize" to smash the diversifiers and to attain "collective security."

An Imaginary Conversation....

A modern fellow of genus Homo protests his innocence. "I don't work because I worked much harder before", says he. "I labored for ten years at a crap job earning $30,000 per year and that earned me the right to live in miserable conditions in which the loss of my job would have made me destitute in weeks. But, I was not content to labor as my fellows. I got a second job at $20,000 per year and I was so thrifty that I spent not a penny of it but banked it all so that at the end of my time I had $300,000, a princely sum. I invested it wisely at 10% and now I can live for the rest of my life, if modestly, off the proceeds of only my own sweat, my own thriftiness, and my own discipline. And, if there was any luck to it - in my not facing misfortune or ill health or any other calamity - that was the product of my own luck too. I owe nothing to anyone. What I have is due to myself alone, and those who have much more than I, it seems to me that they must have arrived at it the same as I, perhaps over generations. What is this social power you speak of when it is only individual labor and individual property that stems from it? It seems to me that you merely envy that which you are too lazy to earn for yourself."

"My dear independent fellow" says we, "let us understand the simple arithmetic of your claims. If your story is as you say and we ignore all else that you report, still at the end of ten years, we see only $200,000. And, if you continue to live at this admittedly low level, nevertheless, you will have run through your entire accumulated proceeds in only 6 years and eight months. More than this, by your accounting, it would take one and a third lifetimes to create a single lifetime without labor, and this at the exceedingly low standards and exceptionally favorable circumstances that you assume. How then are we to explain those who live without labor for generations, and this at a thousand or ten thousand times times the level that you report? How many generations of 'thrift' and 'hard work' would this require? What you claim is impossible for you and beyond impossibility for those who live above you. Where is this magic of 'individual labor and individual property' that you speak of?"

"But you forget interest", protests our friend. "My money makes money, and simply by the act of having some which is not consumed in day to day living, that which I save is augmented. It is this which grants me my independence."

"We forget as much as your money 'makes'," answers we, "which is nothing at all. Set your money on the table and leave it there for as long as you like. Nothing happens to it. It remains the same. It is only by setting it in motion as capital that anything whatever is 'made' and that 'making' is the product of labor, the same as your own. Your interest comes from the command of the labor of others, just as your own was once commanded and after 6 years and eight months not a speck of 'hard work', 'thrift', 'good luck' or 'wisdom' is left. Neither is there any trace of 'independence' or 'personal property' You now live by the labor of others... by the transformation of your pitiful 'savings' into Capital, no matter how small the sum. It is your ability to command the labor of others as a social power that gives you your ability and that you have a poor man's caricature of that process changes nothing other than to lay fraudulent your claims to the right. You might as well claim innate superiority or the right of the sword as did the slave master or the god-given hierarchy of obligations of the lord or even the phases of the moon, if you like. You eat without working because you have maneuvered yourself into a position in which others work to feed you. You are the opposite of what you claim."

"You're just trying to make me feel bad.", says our friend.

"We don't give a shit how you feel", says we. "It is modest enough what you do... just as you claim. It is your willingness to ignore what is closer to your face than your nose that we tire of. "

[donco6]

71. The "on paper" meme is stupid. Sorry.

Your bank statement is "on paper" too. The fact that your balances are tracked on paper doesn't make them any less real.

[NEDem]

82. Stupid? Maybe. But it's econ 101.

A gain or loss on a stock is not realized until it is sold.

It may sound stupid, but it is a simple fact that is taught in every econ 101 class in the country.

[Two Americas]

85. neocon 101 maybe

Wealth and real money mean opposite things for workers than they do for the wealthy and powerful few. Learning exactly how the few move and control wealth may be interesting, but from viewpoints other than the right wing viewpoint Labor is seen as more important than amassing capital. That isn't something that is taught in econ 101, but rather springs from the hearts and minds of everyday human beings and is based on compassion and a sense of justice and fair play. This is not about the knowledge, but rather about how one interprets the knowledge and puts it to use. That is never politically neutral.

You can't learn compassion in college. No degrees are offered for that. Since college has mostly become a training ground for corporate shills and lackeys, would it surprise us if econ 101 had a distinct bias, a bias that favors management over Labor, the interests of the wealthy few over the workers? It would be surprising if that bias were not there.

There are a lot of things that are "taught in every class in the country" that I hope we are not all required to get in lockstep with and never question.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Americas]

87. heh

OK.

Hit a nerve I guess.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr.Phool]

104. Looks like it. He's at Chuck E. Cheese's now.

We lost very little. I was in bonds luckily when the dot com bubble burst. Unlike a lot of friends at work. When I went on disability in 2002, I withdrew it at no penalty. Just withholding and used it for the down payment on my house when I couldn't sell the other one.

Back in May, I saw a list of the top 10 banks most likely to fail soon. My wife used to work for one of them and had a large 401k mainly in their stock. She was 59 1/2 then, and I told her to get it the hell out and pay the withholding. She cashed out the next day, and within a week it lost 70% of it's value. That was in May. God knows how low it is now.

Right now it's sitting in a safe deposit box in gold coins and cash.

[Two Americas]

114. ouch

That is one bruised and battered looking sub thread now lol. I don't often get attacked like that.

Glad to hear that you and yours are in good shape, especially as we get up there, eh?

I would like to see more discussion about collective and social solutions rather than individual ones, though, because so many vulnerable and blameless people are being hurt. That is just the old school Democrat in me speaking.

[donco6]

116. "Realized" isn't the same as asset valuation.

That's taught in Econ 101, too.

[elocs]

7. I lost a couple of hundred dollars because I did not feel obligated to sit by

and watch my investments plummet. I didn't cash out anything, but I did move my money into Treasury bonds until the dust settles. Too many Americans simply consider themselves to be helpless victims in this financial meltdown. I do not have a patriotic obligation to hold onto failing stocks and watch them sink and devastate my finances.

[nevergiveup]

8. $60,000 and still counting

and my small business of 35 years is near collapse. I have four families dependent on its survival. I am not about to throw in the towel but life in the small business world is grim. Otherwise everything is peachy.

[Generic Other]

14. I always used to roll my eyes when my dad talked about the poorhouse

Now that I actually feel closer to moving there, it's not so funny.

Welcome to the 'hood, neighbor. I hope we are able to salvage something in the next few weeks and months.

#1 order of business, get rid of every politician with an R next to their name.

[MadrasT]

9. $40K the last time I looked. I've stopped looking.

The bright side: I'm about 20 years from retirement.

[Generic Other]

15. It's good to have some people in our Hooverville still getting a paycheck

Maybe you'll throw a chicken in our communal stew pot every once in awhile.

Seriously, a lot of older Americans are about to lose their independence thanks to trickle down economics.

[FtWayneBlue]

10. My account is down 20k:

from 90k down to 70k. It remains to be seen whether this is a paper loss or a permanent loss, and whether the loss will become greater. I am trying to keep in mind that this is the current value of my portfolio of mutual funds, which value quite possibly could go up after the election. As long as the underlying stocks do not become worthless and the issuing companies go out of business, there is the possibility of rebound before I have to sell anything when my retirement starts, hopefully in 10 years. Those that are starting their retirement now or already in retirement hopefully have transferred their assets into low or no risk vehicles before the current downturn.

[Generic Other]

24. The amounts are dwindling so fast the balance will be zero soon

Then what? Can you recover from zero?

I am totally ignorant about finances. It just looks grim. Moreover, I am also in the demographic of workers who paid into the SS system for 20+ years, the ones who have been told repeatedly not to expect SS to be there...I feel like I am facing no future at all.

Where is the bailout for the middle class? The government officials and the corporate CEOs who ripped us off should repay us or go to jail.

[RadicalTexan]

12. None - because my budget is too tight to allow for 401k contributions

that and I was unconvinced at my father's admonitions in this regard, that I MUST, MUST, MUST put as MUCH as possible into it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. My father, incidentally, is a Republican.

WE NEED SOCIAL SECURITY AND REAL TRADITIONAL PENSIONS FOR ALL AMERICANS.

[Generic Other]

16. Mine is my pension...I also couldn't afford a 401K

My student loans were my 401K.

[RadicalTexan]

22. "My student loans were my 401k."

Amen to that!

I owe $45,000, and it's all in forbearance because, depite having two degrees and 13 years of work experience, I can't earn more than $30,000 a year.

When is someone going to bail ME out?

[MgtPA]

17. As of 30 Sept, over $50,000 - I don't even want to know the current numbers. (eom)

[Generic Other]

25. What I see here is hard working Americans RIPPED OFF

It feels like a punch in the gut. We are not the ones who got tax breaks, bonuses, golden parachutes, junkets, etc.

[Not Me]

18. I checked Saturday morning, and I am down about $150K from the peak

A large amount, since when I lost my job a couple years ago, the pension lump sum was rolled into my 401K.

[Generic Other]

34. OMG This is a catastrophe being repeated all across America

This is our Odessa steps moment.

For those who are wondering what I am referring to, it is a famous scene in the movie "Battleship Potemkin." In the scene the tsar's Cossacks fire on protesters on the steps. A mother pushing a baby carriage is killed and the carriage begins to careen down the steps slowly, inevitably hurtling to its doom. By the time it reaches the bottom of the stairs, the scene cuts to the gates of the Kremlin and the destruction of the monarchy itself. The Revolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps-v-kZzfec

[dixiegrrrrl]

101. I thought I was the only one who had seen that film...

powerful, esp. for a silent pic.

Yeah, lots of comparisons to the Soviets.

Maybe this means I will have to get used to the taste of vodka?

Silver linings..

[Dr.Phool]

105. I just poured myself a Stoli on the rocks.

I talked to an acquaintance I see on the week-ends yesterday and today.

He lost over a million dollars this week alone.I plan on putting up a post in my journal about our conversation later.

[slackmaster]

39. Did you put any of that pension into non-stock assets, money market, guaranteed income funds, etc.?

I've done just fine (on paper) in everything except stocks.

[Generic Other]

45. Obviously not every American understands high finance Slack

I obviously had too much of it in stocks. But the other funds have not grown at all. In years.

[FtWayneBlue]

19. Or as I have heard, your 401k is now a

201k.

[The River]

20. Nothing Ventured - Nothing Lost

As the old saying goes. (I never trusted the "free market")
I'm 3 years from retirement with enough cash
to last a few years. No paper, no debts
and a "well off" GF. IF thats not enough,
I'm well trained in wilderness survival.

[Generic Other]

26. Will you bring us venison sometimes? The children of Hooverville will thank you

Lucky to have a well off GF as a hedge against bad times. :)

[The River]

42. I Don't Own Any Guns

anymore so it will have to be fish, roots, berries etc.
We can also eat the rich if there are any left.

[Generic Other]

47. mmmm soylent green with a dash of Perrier

garnished with berries.

I used to pick berries as a kid. I am really good at picking berries.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Moved our IRAs out of stocks and into MMs in July. The handwriting was flashiing in neon by then.

I've been keeping track since. We would've lost about $20,000 by now.

[Generic Other]

28. Like I said I come from working class roots...don't know anything about money

I grew up in a trailer park.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. So did I.

And, sometimes in a car with my parents and a brother and sister.

[Generic Other]

38. Glad you saved that money

It rankles twice as much that I lost it to greedy CEO fuck ups.

I'd rather it went for universal healthcare.

[slackmaster]

40. Good move

Congratulations!

[InkAddict]

23. I gained $0.01

Unfortunately, there's this not so little Stafford loan by reason of marriage. Looks like that may have also been false optimism and parental pride that has gone before the fall. C'est le guerre.

[Generic Other]

30. I barely finished paying mine!

And I went to a cheap school!

[soothsayer]

33. Shoot, I thought you meant Hootersville

[Generic Other]

36. My clothes may be ragged but I can still cover those

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

37. The only holdings I have sold in the last year are some gold and silver

For a nice profit. I'm OK with the stock market decline - It means I buy more shares with each paycheck than I would be with a flat or slowly rising market.

[Generic Other]

41. The only gold I have is in some of my teeth

So you want I should dig my fillings out for you too?

[Dr.Phool]

106. I can't even do that.

My teeth are plastic!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[JDPriestly]

43. I went into cash with most of my money well before the immediate crash.

I just saw this coming. I still had little bits in pension funds from earlier jobs and a couple of small diversified investments in mutual funds, so I have lost a little money, but mostly I have stayed in cash. We are not getting much interest on our cash. We also stayed strictly away from accumulating debt. Our cars are over ten years old, each of them. I stopped buying stuff over a year ago. I mean that quite seriously. We have cut back drastically for over a year knowing this was coming.

[Generic Other]

48. I stopped buying stuff too...and tried to pay off credit cards

Seriously trying to re-adjust to my future life of poverty. I fear we in the middle class are all gonna become intimately familiar with hunger and want once again.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. None.

Due to my lazy ass investment non-strategy of benign negligence, I've had my savings sitting in a money market account. Everybody told me this was a stupid thing to do.

[Generic Other]

49. Smartee! Yours grew the slowest but is still there

You will be the new rich in America! Right up there with Gates and Buffet.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

55. Heh. Hardly.

It's not that much and I didn't earn it. My slice of proceeds from a lawsuit. It'll be a down payment on a house in five or six years if I'm really, really lucky.

[Warpy]

51. My income is down only slightly over last year

The rest was only numbers on paper, nothing I ever considered to be real.

The truth is that those numbers weren't real for any of us. There was hyperinflation in the stock market in the 90s. The Republicans have driven this country to the edge of bankruptcy for 8 years in an attempt to keep those hyperinflated numbers up.

The truth is also that unless you panicked last week, you still own what you always did.

I think we're all going to be in for some tough years, but if we lived within our means and stayed out of debt, we are likely to survive them.

[slipslidingaway]

52. We moved from stocks to money markets last fall...

we made a similar move in early 2000 but stayed mostly in bond funds and Rydex short funds until late 2002 and 2003.


Posted this in April in the personal finance forum...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=327&topic_id=716&mesg_id=716

About the McClellan Oscillator and Summation Index

Not sure how many people watch the McClellan indicators, but I thought it might be useful information for people who are managing their own funds...


In the spring and summer of 2007 the Summation index was making lower highs while the general market continued to make higher highs. These divergences with price, whether negative or positive, can be an early warning sign in the direction of the market.

[ArmedAmerican]

56. 600k down from 6 months ago

So...yeah, that sucks. "It's not real money" is something people who have stocks say, because until you sell your stock, the value of your stocks is just a number and not cash. You only gain or lose, technically, after you've sold.

The best investment you can make is $2300 to get Obama into office, that's the most an individual can contribute. Compare that to how much you've lost - which number is greater? TV ads cost money and that's the only way to get the truth out, to dispell McCain's lies and hate mongering. If you don't contribute to the Obama campaign and McCain gets in office, or Palin, how much more do you think you'll lose over the next four years? Probably a lot more than $2300.

[slipslidingaway]

69. "600k down from 6 months ago" ...

if so you may want to try a book that talks about general market direction and how it affects all stocks and hopefully you have time to wait it out.


I would have loved to have seen another plan from Obama's economic advisors, this problem was well known in advance.

Please do not tell me if we only had enough time...

:(


Rubin is one of Obama's economic advisors...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4221335&mesg_id=4221335


"...What these "three marketeers" -- as they were called in a 1999 Time magazine cover story -- were adept at was peddling the timebombs at the heart of this complex crisis: exotic and opaque financial instruments known as derivatives -- contracts intended to hedge against risk and whose values are derived from underlying assets. To cut to the quick, Greenspan, Rubin and Summers opposed regulating them..."

[DeschutesRiver]

99. We made a similar move last August/September

but went straight to individual treasuries instead of funds.

The last time things went bad we chose not to incur "paper losses", which resulted in our retirement taking the whole last raging amazing bull market just to recoup the losses, but not make any profit during that time.

I just decided we'd sit this one out in as much safety as possible, ie return of capital instead of a return on capital is all I am seeking this time around. We are 10-15 years out from retirement, respectively, and I am not in the mood to be screwed. If the market improves, I am willing to use the money to get some kind of return, but right now it is a gamble.

And I won't gamble with my retirement again. Ever. I gave up a lot of things, skimped, saved and did without to get a nest egg for my old age, since we are self employed and no one else is going to do it for us. I won't see it at risk anymore.

[tbyg52]

57. I'm not looking because I don't intend to sell (wish I had done so a year ago)

Based on looking at the prices for my individual mutual funds, and the last time I looked a little while back, when I had about what I'd put in to begin with, I'd say I now have probably $3-4K less than I've put in. That's on about $40K that I got the nerve to invest in mutual funds starting in 2004. Great timing, huh? This time last year I was up $9K over what I'd put in, so if I count from that it makes me feel a lot worse.

[mwooldri]

58. About $3,000 but I only had $10k in my 401k to begin with.

Thats after loans...

I don't know what happens to 401k loans if your assets get wiped out.

I'm into mixed funds, and funds of funds... recently I put some new money into a stable value fund but I haven't (and will not) move my investments into it at this time, so I doubt I'll get entirely wiped out.

Though I do have a significant (for me) holding of AXP. It's gotten cut by 50% over the last year, most within the last two months.

Mark.

[tammywammy]

59. I haven't checked

I have 40 years until retirement. It'll go up and down during that time.

[slipslidingaway]

70. 40 years until retirement...

then that is a good plan.

[Jamastiene]

60. Honestly, I don't know.

I had about 2 shares of stock, I think, but I cannot find the certificates and even at their highest they were only worth $4.

That is not to say I haven't lost anything at all though. We all lose when we have no jobs left and no opportunities left and our country is about to go into a deep Depression. Let's face it. We are screwed no matter what.

[varelse]

62. None, unless you count losses caused by devaluation of the dollar

my savings is in a Community Credit Union which is not likely to fail, and it is insured up to $250,000 (not that I even have 1/10th of that).

I had some money in a 401K plan (I stopped contribution to that fund years ago, though), so I suppose that whatever that is doing could be counted as a loss, but it's not accessible to me unless I leave (or lose) my job. If that happens, I'm sure that my 401k losses will pale beside the prospect of job-hunting in one of the highest cost of living areas with one of the highest levels of unemployment/underemployment. Worrying about my "investments" at that point would be kinda like worrying about a day-old scratch on the elbow while bleeding from a sucking chest wound...

[Hekate]

64. The 2 of us are okay, but Mr. H may be working without a paycheck shortly due to CA's non-budget

As a community college professor he's a State employee, and California is in deep shinola. But we've always saved vigorously, bought our economy cars new and then drove them for 20+ years, and have been in the same home for 25 years. We can hold on. He's in the kitchen grading papers right now.

Our adult kids are okay. I have to keep reminding myself that they are okay. Counting my blessings has become an exercise in anxiety.

But honest to gods, this has been hard to watch. We got our bank statements a few days ago, and the already low interest on all our accounts has dropped like a stone. That means that withdrawals from savings will hit the principal sooner rather than later. The one stock market account he had left over from his days as a consultant, that he left alone and let grow, that one has diminished in value by at least a third so far.

The bedrock of our economy was eroded a long time ago. We all got redefined as consumers rather than citizens -- and then moved manufacturing offshore.

I feel like the levees all around us are leaking like mad....

Hekate

[mbee]

66. So far I have not lost a lot, but over the last eight

year Bushco nightmare my husband hasn't had full employment in any one of those years. He finally had to take early SS and is working a part-time job, but we found out he can't make more than about $13,000 to collect SS isn't that outrageous? Why on earth wouldn't our government want people to make as much as they can to pay into social security? There is no excuse for this and I hope Obama makes some changes to these elitist laws where the rich can cheat and make as much as they want while the rest of us have both hands tied behind our backs.

[TexasObserver]

72. None. I got out of equities 8 months ago, around 13K.

Of course, I've been expecting this collapse to happen, and decided at the start of the year that this year was the year it was coming down. I've known since 2005 we were riding a bubble.

Having publicly traded stock is like having a home on the gulf coast. You have to know when to nail it up, pack it in, and head north until the storm is over.

I don't use debt for any consumer purpose, and I don't use debt to run my business, so I have not been hurt.

I am sympathetic to those not similarly situated, however, particularly teachers who have seen their nest egg shrink. Since you're not near retirement, you can recover from this, and probably will. However, learn from this experience. Next time the market has a trending downturn, move out of stocks and into something that is safer, with a fixed but low rate of return. Then move back into the stock market when you're sure it is on a sustained growth curve.

[easttexaslefty]

73. We have nothing to lose

We have always been self-employed, always pretty much scraping by. No retirement, hardly any savings and definitely no stocks.
I feel bad for those who have lost money however.

[votetastic]

75. I put my extra money into paying off debt, mortgage..

That was always a safer investment to me than a 401K, especially considering who's in the WH

[Madam Mossfern]

77. As of a couple of days ago

more than 500K.

Since we're over 60 years old, it really sucks big time. That's a good part of our retirement money. The economy is adversely effecting my husband's business too.

[Generic Other]

81. Madam Mossfern, we can have tea together in Hooverville

Help yourself to a bowl of hobo stew. By the way does anyone have a recipe?

What bothers me the most about this whole Wall Street crime spree is that the wealth didn't vanish, it's just in someone else's pocket. Seems as if all our life's labors went to enrich hateful people who buy off politicians, send young men and women to die in pointless wars, and create havoc in our country with their greed and lust for power.

[Madam Mossfern]

84. Here ya go

I learned how to eat real cheaply when I was in graduate school. There were times I would have to go searching under the sofa cushions and in pockets of clothes I hadn't worn for a while to find some forgotten change in order to buy rice and beans. Come to think of it, I was pretty damn healthy back then...no processed food.

I truly believe in karma for those who have my money. The Organizing Force of the Universe will make sure the scales are balanced.

edited to post recipe...oops:


Hobo Stew

Taste of Home Ground Beef Cookbook
Try a FREE ISSUE of Taste of Home!

I got this recipe from my husband's family in Missouri. I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't rave about this easy stew. - Mrs. Dick Brazeal, Carlin, Nevada

SERVINGS: 8

CATEGORY: Main Dish

METHOD: Slow Cooker

TIME: Prep: 15 min. Cook: 6 hours
Ingredients:

* 1-1/2 pounds ground beef
* 1 medium onion, diced
* 3 cans (10-3/4 ounces each) condensed minestrone soup, undiluted
* 2 cans (15 ounces each) ranch-style beans
* 1 can (10 ounces) diced tomatoes and green chilies, undrained

Directions:
In a large skillet, cook beef and onion over medium heat until the meat is no longer pink; drain. Transfer to a 3-qt. slow cooker. Add the remaining ingredients. Cover and cook on low for 6 hours or until heated through. Yield: 8 servings.

[SteveG]

78. $33,000 (9.2%) since 12/31/07

nt

[Irish Girl]

80. Haven't lost anything yet

Although I'm sure hyperinflation will gobble the purchasing power of my dollars in the upcoming months.

[Hekate]

89. Upthread I said we were okay. But between the house & savings, we've lost about 6 yrs of retirement

Right. Six years of our ability to retire just vanished into thin air. And since we're 61, we'd like to retire some day.

Hekate

[Generic Other]

90. There will be some OLD boomers clinging to their jobs past their prime

and why do I get the feeling younger workers will resent it?

[Hekate]

91. Well, some of them already resent it that we haven't moved out of our paid-up homes ...

... into little condos so they can move in to the neighborhood. There was quite the thread on that a year or so ago.

Those who bear resentment toward others of their economic class need to ask themselves: Who does it serve to have us all behaving as though everything in life is a zero-sum game? Because it does serve someone -- just not us.

Hekate

[Occulus]

108. My mom works at McD's and has for years and years

Never a manager, let alone an owner- she just doesn't want that level of responsibility. I can't blame her a bit; she's in her sixties now and has had cancer twice. Thankfully, my father had a job throughtout their marriage that paid well; he was an electrical engineer and project manager at a plastics company, and that got us all through the recession of the Reagan years with little apparent difficulty. Once he became ill again, the health insurance he had through that company, even after he was forced into retirement by the suits above him (very dumb move, as the man knew electrical systems like the back of his hand, and I'm somewhat chagrined now that I didn't learn the trade from him), kept him alive and fighting FAP (the disease he had) for several years after he by all rights should have died.

Thanks to my father's investments while he was healthy and able to work, my mom is completely comfortable. Her house and the land on which it sits is paid for and has been for years. Her investment manager knows what he's doing, and every time I've asked her, she's said things are relatively safe for the time being. Financially speaking, she's very conservative, and has instructed her broker/whateveryoucallit to act accordingly. I'm fairly certain she's dealing with this crisis in a very rational manner.

Bully for my mom, but she had the benefit of being able to leave those decisions to my father, who knew what he was doing with investments in the first place and, before he got really sick, ferreted out a good manager for their investments. I, on the other hand, have never had the extra cash sitting around to invest in anything, and don't know enough about the stock market, bonds, CDs, mutual funds, and so forth to feel comfortable investing in much of anything.

I think my instincts were correct when I decided to stay out of "the market" and just save what I could when I could, but I certainly don't begrudge my mom her financial successes. Among other reasons, all that represents what my sister (and, eventually, her four kids) and I stand to inherit. That's not exactly a small consideration in our case. I'd much rather have (or share!) a paid-off ranch house with a really functional kitchen sitting on a piece of land than a pile of cash that's not enough to buy one outright.

[bertman]

92. Last quarter was down 12.5%. I don't even look anymore. I'm pretty sure I'll be

working until I die anyway. Good thing I like my job, eh?

[Vickers]

93. Between two 401Ks, IRAs for wifey and me, and college funds, about $74,000.

Easy come, easy go!

:P

Around 20 years from retirement, btw. I just bumped UP my 401K withholding.

I'm getting all of my subsistence farming implements gathered together, just in case.

And ammo.

[Hun Joro]

96. When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose...

You're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.

[jberryhill]

97. Naked I Came Into This World

And naked shall I depart.

[snot]

100. they waited 'til the best moment to loot me.

Reply to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=392231&mesg_id=392722 (info re- a theory having to do with the conditions for crashes occurring after the memories of the last one have faded for surviving generations):

i think the part about learning lessons is absolutely true; but another aspect I can't help wondering about is . . .

that it takes a generation or so to re-build wealth worth looting.

i mean, it's kinda lucky for the mega-rich that both effects work in their favor.

my parents were Depression babies; i'm just old enough to have a sense of how that affected them; i've worked hard since i was 16, i was on the brink of retirement, can't help but notice that they waited 'til the BEST (for them) moment to loot me.

(actually, i was v. conservatively invested; but i est. at least 25% of my retirement funds are gone or at least in jeopardy, and that's assuming things don't get too much worse.)

[ferrferr]

102. Not sure..

I don't know if my boyfriend has lost any of his 401k or not, but I know the stocks he was given as part of his yearly compensation package were given to him at a much higher rate. He gets a dollar amount of stock at market value for that time. So he may have gotten $10k worth last year when they were $90 a share (so about 111 stocks) and now they're in the $50 range. So that would be about $4,500 loss for one year alone, and he's got almost 9 years in the company. I'd venture to say he's a good $20k in the hole.


Gods I don't want to think about that. The stock money had been giving us a buffer since the house hasn't sold. Looks like we'll move back when the people renting it move. Damn money.

[1awake]

103. So far.. approx. 25,000 give or take afew.

I've been fairly lucky to this point because I'm fairly diversified.. well that is until last week, but so far, as expected.

[tuckessee]

107. Without knowing % lost it's kind of meaningless. n/t

[leftofthedial]

109. Since the bush cabal seized power in 2000

I lost a 28-year marriage, two close friends (two who died prematurely due to no medical insurance and/or no help from the VA--lost many other former friends over their insane RW politics), a home, land, two businesses, three jobs (laid off three times in 18 months), two suicided kids of close friends (despair over the poor prospects for the planet in both cases), over $750,000 (not counting lost income; lost some of it in the divorce, the rest in 401K withdrawals to pay off debts accrued while married and to live on as well as the taxes, penalties, etc. for early withdrawal).

I don't know how much that is.

[FatDave]

111. I've never been happier that I have no investments whatsoever. (nt)

[Common Sense Party]

112. Ummm...none.

I can't lose until I sell. I'm not selling, so I'm not losing.

I still have the same number of shares as before; haven't lost any shares.

Today's prices aren't my prices.

[bridgit]

115. '0'

[dhpgetsit]

117. My IRA has lost 1/3 of its value

Most of it since Sept 30th.

[yodoobo]

118. Bear Stern scared me out

So i moved my 401k money into money markets and tbill funds

Been there since march, so I'm fortunate that I haven't lost anything. In fact I've earned a little bit from the measly 3% return on money markets.

Unfortunately, my retirement fund is rather small, so many of the losses that people are talking about, are actually much larger than my entire fund is

[Javaman]

119. You make that statement like it's over. we still have a long way to go. nt