Mexican marijuana cartels sully US forests (What ARE you smoking?)

[Common Sense Party]

Very eye-opening report, if you haven't seen it:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081011/ap_on_re_us/pot_environment

Key excerpts:

"What's going on on public lands is a crisis at every level," said Forest Service agent Ron Pugh. "These are America's most precious resources, and they are being devastated by an unprecedented commercial enterprise conducted by armed foreign nationals. It is a huge mess."

. . . . .

"People light up a joint, and they have no idea the amount of environmental damage associated with it," said Cicely Muldoon, deputy regional director of the Pacific West Region of the National Park Service.

. . . . .

"I've seen the pesticide residue on the plants," Foy said. "You ain't just smoking pot, bud. You're smoking some heavy-duty pesticides from Mexico."

[DS1]

1. I haven't taken a drag from a spliff in a long time

but these scare tactics are bullshit

[Common Sense Party]

2. Not sure what a spliff is.

You think this is just made up? That this stuff isn't going on? What makes you think that?

[amdezurik]

10. big bad scary Mexicans

after America's youth...in any case lots of organic available and the ones spraying poison on those lands have a US seal on the planes and choppers...

[DS1]

20. A spliff is a joint

[RadiationTherapy]

26. A spliff is a CONE SHAPED joint; 2 demerits! nt

[rch35]

41. where i come from, a spliff is half weed half tobacco nt

[Zhade]

38. "Not sure what a spliff is." It shows, palooka, it shows.

NT!

[Common Sense Party]

58. I'll admit it: you are SO much cooler than me because you do drugs.

I stand in awe.

I'm amzed that you even condescend to talk to an un-hip "palooka" like me, when you are just so...so...AWESOME.

I'm not worthy.

[Kali]

6. reefer madness for the new century

[WhiteTara]

54. actually it is true that the forests are

being harmed in the commercial grows that are taking place. It is hard to schelp all those materials in so of course, nothing is schlepped out. Trees are cut and poisons and traps are set to kill any creature that would eat the plants. There are lots of chemicals being used ...they are more concentrated than organics, so it is easier to carry and often chemoicals create bigger yields (just like the farmers). This year we had several murders in our county, directly related to the commercial grows. These grows have over a 1000 plants and there armed guards. The CDF often won't fly in some areas because they are afraid of being shot.

The Mexican mafia has moved into our industrial comlex and their boat comes and goes from the lot (I presume to pick up from the mother ships at sea.) However, I think that they are moving more into methamphetamine because it is less bulky and makes more money because it is so addictive.

I only write this because I live in one of the only counties in the country where you can legally grow at least 6 mature plants in your yard and have 2 pounds of processed pot. Up until last year, it was 25 plants. The county scaled it back during the June elections. It needs to be legalized nationally and taxed like any other business. Then it would come out of the forests and into neat little farmer rows.

[Kali]

3. "You ain't just smoking pot, bud. "

:rofl:

[Common Sense Party]

4. I thought his choice of words funny, too.

"You ain't just smoking bud...er, bud."

[IntravenousDemilo]

5. The message: BUY CANADIAN!

Really, though, the stuff grows everywhere, doesn't need fertilization and in fact replenishes the soil, resists bugs naturally (that is, without pesticide), and is very hardy. It's one reason they call it "weed".

[Kali]

7. or grow your own

too bad it doesn't repel neighborhood teenagers

[Common Sense Party]

9. It was "ditchweed" in Iowa. Plentiful and free.

I've heard that pot today is nothing like what it was 20 years ago.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[saras]

11. There's Godiva's and there's Hershey's

You get what you pay for, then and now.

A relative brought a duffelbag of Kansas dirtweed home, back in the seventies. It was so bad, compared to the raunchy Mexican that was around for cheap, that we did wierd experiments on it instead of smoking it. On the other hand, I visited an attorney once, back in the same era, and he had KILLER stuff, probably not modern connoisseur-quality, but as powerful as modern stuff. Us schoolkids couldn't afford stuff like that, quality OR quantity. If you grow indoors, it's as easy to grow superweed as bad weed, for the same legal risk, so why not grow it? If you're smuggling, it's more profitable to carry expensive stuff than cheap stuff.

On the other hand, bongs (one-toke pipes) and little glass pipes are big these days. I don't think anyone rolls fatties and smokes joint after joint, let alone putting a full ounce in a hookah (I saw that once in high school, and it seemd a reasonable way to use that particular bag) . But I haven't been in Humboldt county, nor hung with serious potheads, recently either.

[obiwan]

16. See response # 15.

[ThePowerofWill]

30. Always been high and lower grades.

The herb today is not stronger than before. What has changed is you tend to get a better fresher product that has suffered less degradation9even in bricks). If you grew the seeds, and processed the finished product correctly, or having it fresh it would compare to todays grass. You might even find it a better product.

Mexican sinsemilla, and Thai sticks are examples of high quality grass available that are/were as good as any we have today. Or the Haze the Haze brothers developed is still considered a backbone to many of todays top strains.

Also measuring Thc/cannabids amounts is a bullshit comparison. What matters is the quality and ratio of the psychoactive compounds. Or a sample measured at 7% potency with high Thc too Cbd/Cbn is a more potent product than a 20% potency sample with a low Thc too Cbd/Cbn ratio.

The big thing about todays herb is that a decent plant may be grown anywhere in the US, other than a very temperate region with a long growing season. This happened due to the introduction of what we call indicas today. They helped add that crystallized look, and shortened flowering times of those long flowering sativas. All those crystals made a nice cosmetic change, because in the Hindu Kush region where they originate natives selected for short flowering plants with large easily removed crystals for hash making.

[Fuzz]

34. Point me in the right direction and OKAY!

;)

[Blue_Tires]

73. +1

or buy local homegrown...

the times i've tried the mexican stuff, every time it was SHIT

[immoderate]

79. Too bad. They grow some great weed in Mexico.

Unfortunately the Acapulco gold, Michoacan, Oaxaca are not easily available here any more. The best pot that I got in the late sixties to early seventies, usually from Mexico, Panama, Columbia, Jamaica and Hawaii, and other places, beats any domestic that I've ever had.

--IMM

[cliffordu]

8. If marijuana is outlawed, only outlaws will have marijuana.....

Funny how one of the most dangerous drugs in the world is legal and regulated and taxed, and although you have loads of addicts you DON"T have organized crime distilling it in the National Forests, or selling it to grade school kids on streetcorners.

One percent of the population is in prison in this country and MOST of them are there as a direct result of the drug laws and the criminalization of addiction.

And, for what it's worth, I have 21 years clean and sober, after a life of being a street addict.

[SpiralHawk]

76. Ambien or Oxycontin are the Republicon drugs of Choice

[Common Sense Party]

12. So the general consensus is...this is just fear mongering, and it's

racist to boot.

No one believes this is actually happening.

Ooooookay.

[wolverinez]

49. Very, VERY strange reaction here on DU.

Anyone claiming this to be racist might be a bit paranoid form those illegal pesticides they just smoked......

[Jed Dilligan]

78. I believe it's happening, and that the wording of the reporting

is crypto-racist or xenophobic. "Mexicans" "sullying" "our" forests. The race or nationality of the culprit is irrelevant. The only point to be gained from this knowledge is that criminal cartels thrive when the government passes unenforceable laws against voluntary behaviors.

[Greyhound]

13. Gee golly willikers!

Now where have I heard this bullshit before?

Must be an election year.

[Common Sense Party]

14. So which part is BS, in your educated opinion?

http://www.trailcrew.org/2005/photo_webpages/a2005_marijuana1.htm

http://www.trailcrew.org/2005/photo_webpages/a2005_marijuana2.htm

http://www.trailcrew.org/2007/photo_webpages/BlueCanyon_Feb_photos.htm

Sen. Feinstein seems to think it's a problem, but maybe it's an election year for her, too?

[Greyhound]

31. That this is by any measure a "crisis". That a state as horribly mismanaged as CA

should be expending taxpayer resources trying to eradicate a weed that grows everywhere on earth except the Arctic & Antarctica.

That the "Evil Mexican Cartel" is anything other than the same lying, fear mongering, BS we've been subjected to for over 80 years in the name of propping up criminal corporations.

To the extent that there is a Mexican marijuana cartel is due solely to this insane policy, and the proportion of their income that is derived from marijuana represents is insignificant. Cocaine and Heroin are far more useful and profitable.

That Sen. Feinstein is anything other than a corrupt political hack.

There is much more, how long a list do you want?

[wolverinez]

46. No facts at all in your post.

nm

[Greyhound]

57. If you had bothered to read the reply to my reply, you might have noticed that I was asked for

my opinion. If you want facts, you should ask for them. What would you like?

Also, you might also include the 'nm' or 'n/t' or 'eom' in the subject line so that people don't have to waste time clicking on your message to find there is nothing there.

[malakai2]

53. Think hypothetically for a minute

Activity A is illegal. Group B is performing activity A at secluded, rarely visited locations hidden within vast acreages within the national forest system and the national park system. You enjoy the fruits of activity A, so you...rationalize that group B is either fictitious or not really a problem (that part of your post isn't so clear). I'm having trouble arriving at your conclusion.

What don't you believe? That there are, in fact, grow plots scattered on federal lands? That boosting the productivity of these plots with various pesticides and fertilizers is, in fact, common practice? That there might actually be some environmental impact from illegal pesticide and fertilizer use, or from simple human occupation of the areas in question? Is it just the "Mexican cartels" part? Would it be better if we just called them "growers" instead?

My experience may not be typical, but I did work on a forest, and users did things illegally all the time. Illegal pesticide use, illegal road closure (with a single wire at neck level-imagine hitting that while riding an ATV), hunting out of season or in closed areas, the list is long. Some of the violators were enough of a threat that employees were directed not to enter certain areas of publicly-owned land without a law enforcement presence. Given a large enough acreage, sufficient hiding places, and a crop as easy and lucrative to grow as this one, I don't see anything shocking about the idea that some people would see business opportunity in growing pot out there.

[Common Sense Party]

55. The kneejerk denial of this story strikes me as very odd.

I'm not sure why people are SO quick to dismiss this as nonsense. I'd like them to ask that Sierra hiking club that does cleanups of the garbage left behind if this is all fiction and nonsense. I guess those guys faked all the photos on their website.

[wolverinez]

59. PHOTO of confiscated pollutants

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/California-Department-of-Fish-and-Game/photo//081011/480/c6d997e3a82a43acb670fe03238d47e7//s:/ap/20081011/ap_on_re_us/pot_environment;_ylt=Am2d0O4BVe6_mPQlgAZxQ8tH2ocA

[Common Sense Party]

61. There are a BUNCH of photos in Post #14. But I guess they're

all faked.

Honestly, this is hilarious how people are so wont to kneejerk deny this.

[Greyhound]

60. Interesting that you do not have the intestinal fortitude to reply directly.

I did not say this was not true, I'm quite sure that it is, but the implication that this is a problem of any meaningful significance is asinine and was published for it's potential propaganda.

There was no denial of the facts, merely that the facts were presented in a way that implies a much larger issue than it is.

Now grow a pair and debate the real issue.

[Common Sense Party]

62. The real issue is that this is happening in our parks, and it

shouldn't. People could get sick from smoking this, and they shouldn't.

I find it hilarious that many on this thread ARE denying this and think it's all nonsense.

Grow a pair of what, exactly?

[Greyhound]

64. Can you say paraquat?

Our own government knowingly assaulted it's own citizens with potentially lethal, carcinogenic chemicals and now we're supposed to be outraged over a few scumbags in the woods?

You asked a question, which I answered, and then you not only ignore the answers, but slink over here to avoid the issue.

They're called balls, testicles, nuts, berries,they are a symbol for standing up for and defending what you claim to believe.

[Greyhound]

63. The hypothetical is not necessary, we have a real example and real statistics available.

I live in the American Amsterdam, so there is no need to purchase the crap that usually comes out of these operations, and even when I lived in LA, my guy got the best from local hydroponic operations throughout the Southland.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the weed and every single negative is a direct consequence of it's legal status in this police state.

There is big difference between "some environmental impact from illegal pesticide and fertilizer use" and "...a crisis at every level" that is in the report you linked to. Of course it is bad that this happens, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will stop it except legalization which removes the profits from it.

This is nothing but more propaganda pushed out in a transparently pathetic attempt to justify the immoral WOD which serves those you proclaim (by your membership here) to oppose.

Now, I listed four things that "in (my) educated opinion" are bullshit. Care to address those?

[malakai2]

66. Well...

1) It seems to me that unless you are buying directly from the grower, your source can tell you whatever s/he wants about the product and you have no way to verify the claims.

2a) My post didn't say anything about marijuana use being inherently wrong. My post said "illegal activity," and growing marijuana for recreational use is illegal.

2b) I'm not sure you can attribute all negatives of marijuana use to its legal status. You haven't defined all the negatives and you therefore haven't shown them to be a result of legal classifications.

3a) I didn't link to anything. You'd help your case if you addressed your thoughts to the right person.

3b) The article did indeed mention the pesticide and fertilizer use, and several other things, that collectively may be having crisis-level impacts on trust resources, visitors to public lands, and end users of the marijuana grown there. It might be helpful to know which pesticides are used, in what quantity, and how much residue remains on the plants, but that information isn't in the article.

3c) Park Service, Forest Service, BLM, and Fish & Wildlife Service offices are already vastly underfunded relative to their mandates, so when they have grow plots and meth labs pop up on their properties, they spend time and money dealing with these issues rather than carrying out their assigned tasks. If demand is high enough to overwhelm budgets at these offices, even administrations sympathetic to environmental concerns will consider selling the properties rather than pouring money into them. From their perspective, they save money and solve the problem, while the rest of us lose access to public land.

4) What about it is propaganda? I've seen people do this sort of thing on public land with my own eyes, so if you have some compelling evidence that this isn't happening, feel free to share. Maybe you haven't noticed, but your posts have been a little light on facts and heavy on persuasive appeals.

[Greyhound]

72. So, the answer is no.

Why do you guys even waste your time?

[Greyhound]

70. Oops.

[XemaSab]

81. I live in Northern California

and there are illegal grows all over the place.

Four Mexican nationals were injured in a forest fire a few months ago that any sane person would have fled from.

What were four Mexican nationals doing in Whiskeytown in the middle of a raging forest fire?

Hint: they weren't looking for waterfalls or old mines.

[OnyxCollie]

67. Sen. Feinstein thinks Michael Mukasey is a great guy, too. nt

[obiwan]

15. From what I have experienced, Mexican marijuana sullies your head too.

A lot.

[Common Sense Party]

17. That might be a racist statement. I think.

According to the responses on this thread.

Either that, or Mexican marijuana doesn't exist.

[DRoseDARs]

18. So when the USgovt encouraged farmers 2 grow hemp in WW2 they were really farming 4 Mexican cartels?

Stupid arguments deserve stupid questions.

Legalize and you won't have this problem, Cicely.

[johnaries]

19. Go with Cumberland Plateau skunkweed instead.

smells terrible, but MAN!

Of course, that was back in college........

[Hekate]

21. The US government could shut this down overnight by legalizing marijuana. Period.

Declare victory in the effing War on Drugs and pull out the troops. Tax the damn stuff. Treat it like tobacco and booze.

The feds should be paying attention meth, heroin, and treating addicts like sick people who need treatment. But pot? That is an even bigger failure than Prohibition, and has spawned even more crime and corruption.

Hekate

[Hekate]

22. In re some of the other comments:Sadly enough the pot farms in forests are often lethally guarded...

This has been documented in years past in the LA Times, which is a respectable source. I seem to recall details about tripwires that set off guns for those who might steal the crop.

The War on Drugs has spawned immense criminal activity that is both profitable and dangerous.

Hekate

[Greyhound]

32. The well known and inevitable result of prohibition. n/t

[XemaSab]

82. On the other hand, I worked in the forests of Humboldt County for two summers

and the only place I've ever seen a grow was in Visalia. :shrug:

[bemildred]

23. Maybe if users were allowed to grow their own this would stop?

Eh?

[Common Sense Party]

33. Maybe. The point of this article is, beware what you're toking...

And look at what these jerks are doing to parts of our national forests. I thought people might be concerned about the destruction of the environment, but I guess not.

[Pastiche423]

35. Please provide proof of the envirnomental destruction

Otherwise the article is nothing but bullshit.

[wolverinez]

43. You have to be kidding.

Ridiculous.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. And please provide evidence they're Mexican grow ops.

The article appears to be as racist as it is stupid.

[bemildred]

36. It's always been the case that one ought to be cautious about drugs.

Even legal drugs. And I freely admit I am amazed at the way some people will just gobble down or smoke up anything that's handed to them. But nobody but the feds sprays hemp, to kill it, and there is way the heck enough stuff to pack in for a NF grows as it is: hose, seed, fertilizer, food, bedding, equipment, guns and ammo. Nobody takes bug spray, you don't need it.

WRT your other comment, I was PRECISELY suggesting a way to put an end to this sort of thing. I like to hike a lot and these NF grows are very annoying: the damage and mess, the drug cops flying around and traipsing through in herds, and the loons with guns that watch the grows.

May I ask what your plan is to stop this sort of "free enterprise"? It's the highest paying, easiest to grow crop there is domestically. As long as it is illegal, it will corrupt cops, make growers rich, and cause people to find places to grow in the boonies.

[alfredo]

24. Pesticides are not needed. It's a tough weed that grows everywhere.

It has learned how to take care of itself. I seriously doubt the "cartels" would spend money to do something that is not needed.

[wolverinez]

44. Yes, they are lying about the pesticides.

come on.

[malakai2]

47. Pesticides is a broadly inclusive word

The article mentions both herbicides and pesticides. Given the risks involved for the growers, I imagine they are most interested in finding herbicides that are 1) cheap, 2) accessible, 3) untraceable, and 4) effective at thinning competing organisms. Same would go for insecticides, nematocides, fungicides, and so forth, and if these boosted yields far enough, growers would be nuts not to use them. Same for fertilizers. It may be a tough plant, but it isn't a great competitor (otherwise we'd see big monocultures growing unassisted across the landscape) and the high value cultivars net more income if the seller can maximize the amount he sells. So, if the cost of chemicals needed to boost output is less than the revenue generated in sales, it makes perfect sense to spray away.

Because the pesticide applicators are probably not licensed or subject to EPA rules (just a wild guess), they probably wouldn't care that certain chemicals at their disposal are carcinogenic or toxic. Companies that grow or import produce for human consumption don't seem to care, violation rates on food that is tested are shockingly high (by the way, wash that produce if you aren't buying organic or growing your own), so why would someone not bound by those rules care? Further, if the effects of exposure are chronic, or are acute but masked by the effect of THC, how would a user know what he's been exposed to, and how toxic that substance is?

The article also mentions the human garbage left over from the plot tenders, the fertilizer they use to maximize yields, and so forth. I somewhat surprised they didn't also mention the use of secluded locations in national forests and national parks for meth production, which is a big deal in the Ozarks and Appalachians, as many of the issues there are the same.

Something the article doesn't mention but that is important, most of the field staff at these parks and forests are not armed. Sure, park rangers are allowed to carry firearms, but field biologists, range technicians, forestry technicians, right on down the list, go out far afield on a daily or weekly basis with nothing at their side but a radio and perhaps a pocket knife. On the one hand I like to think that had these agencies been properly funded for the past eight years the field presence would have been great enough to prevent this from becoming a problem, on the other hand I think higher funding levels in the future without some concerted effort to eliminate these grow sites and meth labs will put a lot of people in harm's way.

[alfredo]

80. The pesticides used are probably to keep mammals away. Those are the

most troubling. The THC and other substances in pot are probably to keep insects away. Same goes for hot peppers. I have a friend who is an advocate for industrial hemp. One of the big selling points is its natural resistance to insects.

Human or other predator urine will keep large mammals away from plants. Soapy water sprayed on plants make them taste terrible to most animals. I've done some organic gardening and have used such methods to keep the rabbits and other creatures away from my vegetable patch.

Those plastic toys, Wacky Wall Walkers worked to keep cats out of the garden too. For some reason they are afraid of them.

[bemildred]

84. Actually, with peppers, it's about funguses too:

http://www.sciencentral.com/video/2008/10/02/hot-chili-secret/

[alfredo]

85. Thank you. I am a pepper eater. I love hot things.

[slackmaster]

25. Legalize home cultivation for personal use

One more reason why the prohibition is a failure.

[Blue_Tires]

71. personal AND commercial use -- get some cash moving in the economy again...

[alarimer]

27. This is a huge problem

If these criminals are armed, they should go after them with swat teams or whatever and mow them down, although I would hope the bears and mountain lions would do their thing first. It's what those people deserve for doing this on our public lands. It's dangerous for the animals but also for hikers.

[alarimer]

28. This is a huge problem

If these criminals are armed, they should go after them with swat teams or whatever and mow them down, although I would hope the bears and mountain lions would do their thing first. It's what those people deserve for doing this on our public lands. It's dangerous for the animals but also for hikers.

[UTUSN]

29. Uh, if CLEAN 'murricans didn't DEMAND it, those dirty Meskins wouldn't "sully" - uh, SUPPLY it!1 n/t

[Zhade]

37. Oh good, more anti-herb propaganda. Swell.

Thank goodness I get my MEDICALLY BENEFICIAL stuff from trusted local growers.

What the fuck is with all the anti-pot lies this weekend?

[wolverinez]

45. It's not anti-pot, it's anti-moron

These goons pollute areas and kill wildlife that feeds on the crop.

[Zhade]

50. As soon as you can prove it, you'll have a point.

NT!

[wolverinez]

52. It's proven in the article. Nice try though.

nm

[Common Sense Party]

56. So you automatically reject EVERY AP news story as BS?

Or just those that involve weed?

http://www.trailcrew.org/2005/photo_webpages/a2005_mari...

http://www.trailcrew.org/2005/photo_webpages/a2005_mari...

http://www.trailcrew.org/2007/photo_webpages/BlueCanyon...

[Greyhound]

65. You ever hear Bill Hicks bit on the families that sued Judas Priest? It's like that. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

39. "I've seen the pesticide residue on the plants," said the moran.

:eyes:

[varelse]

40. Legalize it, and localize it

problem solved. Prohibition *is* the problem here.

[cbc5g]

42. All the more reason to legalize it.

And grow your own

[wolverinez]

48. I guess no one cares about the poaching of wildlife and pollution as long as they get their stash

No better than any other drug addict. Look the other way.

[RainDog]

69. it's the equivalent al capone and bathtub gin

the solution to the problem of organized crime that was centered around illegal alcohol was to overturn prohibition and re-legalize alcohol.

there has been so much bullshit spouted in the name of the drug war that people assume anything that makes it to the msm is propaganda. I don't doubt that this illegal farming on national park land is a problem.

the obvious solution, however, is rarely ever spoken by those who have the power to change the law. even tho Nixon's own team suggested decriminalization (which he didn't want to hear and so ignored.) Even tho the initial passage of marijuana laws was done without even reading the bill and at the bequest of financial interests who could give a shit about someone's health.

are you equally up in arms about genetically modified crops from, say, Monsanto? do you know the potential for famine that this creates? Or what about farmers in third world countries who aren't allowed to use their own seeds to grow crops but have to use franken-seeds? This is an environmental disaster waiting to happen.

those on this board who are so anti-marijuana appear, to those who have read up on the history of prohibition, to be naive, at best. calling a marijuana user a drug addict, for example, is the sort of thing that most liberals who have looked at history would consider right wing propaganda - no different than right wingers who say Obama is a muslim and therefore a terrorist. what you're saying is the same thing, as far as bullshit goes.

on the other hand, yes, there are those on this forum who will ignore or dismiss this simply because it is negative. that's an indication of how little trust people place in media that has continued to prop up oil company profits, for instance, at the expense of affordable treatment for cancer patients.

[Pastiche423]

74. Drug addict?

For smoking an herb that was prescribed by a doctor?

:rofl:

You are the one that is ridiculous.

[XemaSab]

83. Just because my grandma gets her morphine from a doctor...

...doesn't mean she isn't a junkie.

[Pastiche423]

86. My point, which apparently went over your head

was that marijuana is not addictive.

[Incitatus]

77. I guess, you would think the government would do something about it.

legalization and regulation would be the most effective way to solve many of the problems associated with marijuana.

[Downtown Hound]

51. The government is responsible for this situation

For years the pot farming was done by hippies, but the repeated efforts of law enforcement against them eventually drove the enterprise into the hands of the mob. The old time hippies just went out and got medical cards when that became legal, and all that's left out in the woods is the mob. Want to stop it? Legalize the damn herb.

[shadowknows69]

68. Not getting my shit from Mexico I assure you

but thanks for the concern.