*Army Times "corrects" original article* - 1st Brigade-3rd Inf. NOT using weapons on civilians (?)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

Why do you think they would feel compelled to say this? Should we believe it?

DU'er, NoSheep, pointed out on Monday that the Army Times article about the Oct 1 domestic deployment of 1st Brigade 3rd Infantry had been offline for some time, but came back online Monday with a change. Here are the changes:

"The package is for use only in war-zone operations, not for any domestic purpose"

"Correction:
A non-lethal crowd control package fielded to 1st Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division, described in the original version of this story, is intended for use on deployments to the war zone, not in the U.S., as previously stated."

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/0...eland_090708w /

*****

"Military Times" has a thread on this with some very interesting comments, inc.:

10-04-2008, 05:44 PM
SoldiersWife
Recruit Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fort Stewart, GA
Posts: 1
Re: Brigade homeland tours start Oct. 1
<note the spelling>
My husband is apart of this "new mission" and these soldiers are not breaking any laws. If you read this article, these soldiers are training for the worst possible sernario. When there is disaster, people tend to panic. These soldiers are preparing for that. The tactics they are learning does not mean they will use them on US citizens. And if you read further, they are training for their next deployment as well. People waste too much time judging what the military does, Just stand behind them. OR Stand infront of them?!

One response to her:

SoldiersWife: I am speaking as an Iraq war vet. An infantry medic and career soldier. No one could possibly support the troops more than I have and do. I appreciate the position you are in, considering that your husband is a member of this unit, but what concerns me is you automatically assume that any of these comments were an attack on your husband or the soldiers in the 1st BCT. The reality couldn't be further from that. My concern and the concern of many others out there is that from the looks of this, the President and/or DOD are committing an illegal act. We already have a force structure in place to deal with natural and man made disasters: the National Guard and we already have a force structure in place to legally deal with civil unrest: the police.

This nation was founded at a time where the ruling executive used troops based in the States to police, coerce, and terrorize the people and politicians into submission. There are specific sections and amendments to the Constitution that ban exactly what is happening for exactly that reason. It is a slippery slope my friend. And one, that once "slid-down," requires great work and blood to correct.

Every uniformed service member takes an oath to the Constitution first, and the President second to defend this country, its citizens, and perhaps most importantly its ideals.

What you husband is doing, as with all the soldiers in the 1st BCT, is commendable from a service standpoint and he is obviously following orders with honor and integrity I'm sure. The great concern is, will he and his fellow soldiers - will all of us - have the moral courage to stand up and say: "This is not right, it is illegal, and it goes against the very fibers of our democratic society."

In all seriousness, please go read the Constitution (every word), all amendments (including the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. If you still feel that the comments on this board are out of line, then I really don't know what to tell you.

God Bless America and Support the Troops

http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also found this post on an MSNBC Message Board, dated Sept 23, which suggests the 1st Brigade was in the US before the published deployment date of Oct. 1:

MSNBC message boards>Code of Conduct>U.S. News

Army Unit to Deploy in October for Domestic Operations

tinydeputy Message #86
09/23/08 05:56 PM
This report is true. My son is 3rd Infantry Division, 1st combat Brigade. He has been in this training ever since he got back from Irag. This Brigade is stationed at Ft. Stewart. I just talked to him on Sunday. I got the news first hand. He had just finished being "gassed". Was not enjoying his day. So....think what you want....IT IS TRUE. They are training for everything mentioned in the article. They will be used for rescue support and FEMA support, biological and chemical incidents and civil unrest. Just think of them as US Govt. Issued S.W.A.T.

More posts from this RW nightmare:
tinydeputyMessage #91
09/23/08 06:01 PM Everyone was screaming for better homeland security....well now you will have it. That green will look pretty good to you if civil unrest breaks out in our streets like it has done in the past. They are not coming to shoot YOU. A little common sense.....no need to get riled up. They are doing the same thing our National Guard has been doing for years people.

tinydeputyMessage #83
10/06/08 07:59 PM Obamas closest confidants are terrorists, racist, bigots, country hating, radical muslim leaders, fraudulent voter organizations, convicted slumlord felons and a Radical Arab gentleman that paid for Obamas Harvard education and he things there are 57 States!!
McCain/Palin 08

~~~~~~~~~~

"There was a terrible baying sound outside, and nine enormous dogs wearing brass-studded collars came bounding into the barn... At first no one had been able to imagine where these creatures came from, but the problem was soon solved: they were the puppies whom Napoleon had taken away from their mothers and reared privately. Though not yet full-grown, they were huge dogs, and as fierce-looking as wolves. They kept close to Napoleon. It was noticed that they wagged their tails to him in the same way as the other dogs had been used to do to Mr. Jones.

Napoleon, with the dogs following him, now mounted on to the raised portion of the floor where Major had previously stood to deliver his speech. He announced that from now on the Sunday-morning Meetings would come to an end. They were unnecessary, he said, and wasted time. In future all questions relating to the working of the farm would be settled by a special committee of pigs, presided over by himself. These would meet in private and afterwards communicate their decisions to the others. The animals would still assemble on Sunday mornings to salute the flag, sing Beasts of England, and receive their orders for the week; but there would be no more debates.

...the animals were dismayed by this announcement. Several of them would have protested if they could have found the right arguments. Even Boxer was vaguely troubled. He set his ears back, shook his forelock several times, and tried hard to marshal his thoughts; but in the end he could not think of anything to say. Some of the pigs themselves, however, were more articulate. Four young porkers in the front row uttered shrill squeals of disapproval, and all four of them sprang to their feet and began speaking at once. But suddenly the dogs sitting round Napoleon let out deep, menacing growls, and the pigs fell silent and sat down again. Then the sheep broke out into a tremendous bleating of ‘Four legs good, two legs bad!’ which went on for nearly a quarter of an hour and put an end to any chance of discussion."

-- Animal Farm, George Orwell

[SammyWinstonJack]

1. WTH?

People waste too much time judging what the military does, Just stand behind them. OR STAND infront of them?! :wtf:




Yeah okay. :patriot: :silly:

[kickysnana]

2. Naomi Wolf stated that the oath has been recenlty changed and protecting the Constitution dropped.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x207570

[eowyn_of_rohan]

3. Well, that may be the coup de grace

about kills the hope that our troops would put the Constitution above the commander in chief





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Without saying anything, she tugged gently at his mane and led him round to the end of the big barn, where the Seven Commandments were written. For a minute or two they stood gazing at the tatted wall with its white lettering.

"My sight is failing," she said finally. "Even when I was young I could not have read what was written there. But it appears to me that that wall looks different. Are the Seven Commandments the same as they used to be, Benjamin?"

For once Benjamin consented to break his rule, and he read out to her what was written on the wall. There was nothing there now except a single Commandment. It ran:

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

[RedLetterRev]

5. And when we are gone

will anyone remember what founded this nation and what democracy used to be? I feel like the very last of a long line, the many-greats-grandchild of NC Regulators and Revolutionary War Patriots who fought against exactly the sort of tyranny we're witnessing today. Exactly the same sort.

During my lifetime, we've stretched from the greatest generation to the stupidest. Two hundred years of democracy and in one short generation, we managed to piss the entire of it away. It completely blows my mind how great a treasure has been lost.

Ben Franklin was right; those who would trade their freedoms for security deserve neither.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

10. It hurts

I am my family's genealogist & historian, so have a deep love of history, and feel sort of entrusted to carry the revolutionary and pioneer spirit forward... My ancestors, too, fought in the Revolution, and like many descendants of Revolutionary War vets, our roots stretch back to the first settlers in America... We're here, talking about this, because we are the torch bearers. We must not give up, and we must remember that Fear itself is our greatest enemy.

[RedLetterRev]

15. We're in the same boat

I've been entrusted with boxes and boxes of painstaking research, documents and GED files, gifted to me by cousins and a mom who spent years trekking across the state, from courthouse to cemetery to gathering to pillar to post. Like you, I feel the watchful eyes of ghosts behind me and the responsibility not to let them down.

Fear? Some days, hellyeah. But I think of what my g's-granddads must have felt when they were in the room when the Mecklenburg Resolves were being signed. One of my g's-granddads was threatened with hanging for his activities. His son and another g's-granddad on my dad's side went to fight with the Overmountain Men at King's Mountain. That paternal g's-granddad was at Braddock's Defeat before that. Another one was at Alamance and Guilford. More were at skirmishes through the state. Patriotic American hell-raisin' runs over 300 years deep in my veins :)

They didn't give up, faced with even worse odds. I can't. I can't let them down or the ones who'll come after us. Tired? Some days (like today) hellyeah. But I read the letters they left. I'm in the lap of luxury.

The meanest thing I've got these days is a pen, but that sucker's still sharp. Since the Revolution, there having been evil forces trying to tear up the Constitution -- Loyalists then, freepers and fascists these days. Somehow, at the eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes, goodness and liberty prevailed.

I've gotta hope it will again.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

36. What a great post. - it's a keeper

I sure identify with all you are saying, and appreciate your encouraging words. By the way I also had a ggggg-grandpa who fought at King's Mountain! His name was Davis. I haven't been working on genealogy lately, with all that has been going, but this just might be the perfect diversion! Take care.

[kickysnana]

7. UPDATE: According to local recruiting office the Military oath has not changed. n/t

[tuckessee]

16. Oh, that settles everything.

We all know that not only are recruiters the brightest and best informed of everyone in the military but they are all little George Washingtons, incapable of telling a lie.

[tom_paine]

24. Actually, I did a little digging, and it appears in this case it is largely true.

I am also a veteran, so I have some familiarity with this topic.

Here's what I found out:

Apparently, the original Oath of Enlistment remains the same. It is said by an individual basically once, when they are inducted into the Armed Forces.

What the specifics are of this story is that, for most every day AFTER inductiona ndthe Oath of Enlistment, Rummy invented a "new" oath to be repeate by soldiers everywhere many times a day probably, in some context or another.

If I remember correctly, it is probably posted on walls on base, etc.

This is still alarming. When I was serving, we only took the one Oath of Enlistnment at induction. And while we had many slogans to chant "Pride, Honor, Discipline" and such, nothing like a new oath, said hundreds of times a year by soldiers everywhere in Amerika.

Hundreds of times a year every year vs. ONCE at induction.

Think about this as a Bushie Marketing strategy, and a brilliant one.

NOW, an inducted soldier pledges his same Oath of Enlistment to the Consitution, as always once at the very beginning (and at reenlistments, etc. so it isn't exactly only one, but it only said, at most, a few times during a soldier's career. The words that say a soldier's highest oath is to the US Constitution.

NOW, hundreds, perhaps thousands of times throughout a soldier's career, they will chant a creed which utterly neglects the soldier's highest duty and replaced it with "the mission"

Think about it from a Bushie Marketing and Propaganda viewpoint. Those hundreds of repetitions, statistically-speaking, will make soldiers more loyal to the Cabal and doing whatever they say.

If it sounds like a familiar things, it should. This is Bushie Propaganda SOP they have now used to great success to literally eradicated the national memory so they can refill it will Orwellian Bushie Lies. It gives the requisite amount of Plausible Deniability, for the Bushies to freeze critics in their tracks with their usual squid ink.

But LOOK, the Oath of Enlistment is still the same..." :argh:

And it allows them to literally psyhcologically-engineeer our soldiers to forget that their highest duty is to the Constitution. (some will still remember, because Bushie advertising and propaganda is about statistics and peeling percentages away, thus weakening and nullifying a structure gradually...some brave soldiers will most definitely remember).

But circling back to the original point: In this case the Recuiting Office is correct

But LOOK, the Oath of Enlistment is still the same..." :argh:

Plausible Deniability is the mother's milk to tyrants all throughout history. It helps them say:

"You are not seeing what you are seeing peasants. Go to sleep. Look at this loophole over here! Surely such a loophole could not exist if you were seeing what your idiot peasants' brains THINK yoru idiot peasant's brains are seeing."

Truthfully, I'd have a lot more hope if such a transparent, almost laughable strategy that has literally been done HUNDREDS of time in humsn history ALWAYS with the same results had NOT been equally successful as Hitler and the nazis Gleichschaltung so long ago...at least up until this moment.

[kickysnana]

28. Thanks for finding this. n/t

[GA_ArmyVet]

31. I raise the bullshit flag again

Rummy did a lot of things but he did not create some oath to be mindlessly repeated everyday. There is an Army values card but it has been around since Clinton, and it espouses things like Duty, honor, Selfless Service, ...etc..Look up the Army website or google Army Values to see the description.

There are enough fucked up things in DOD without creating shit that is completely and utterly false.

[tom_paine]

40. OK then, tell us what part of it IS bullshit. Also, I never said I was sure it was repeated every

day.

I suspected it may be so, and said so. Even if not every day, I am sure it The Soldiers Creed is said a lot more often by soldiers than the Oath of Enlistment.

OK, I am a veterean, although a couple decdes ago.

Tell me what is wrong about my research. Are you trying to tell me the Soldier's Creed does not exist, or that the Soldier's Creed has nothing to do withthe military ro that American Armed Force Members don't say the Soldier's Creed NOT ONCE during their careers?

Are you saying any of those things, becaus calling someone 100% wrong surely would have to mean something as severe as that, or like it.

So, what is it? You called bullshit? I call BULLSHIT ON YOU. Speak up. Elaborate.

WHY is this bullshit? Does the Soldier's Creed not exist in the real world?

Do military members know NOTHING of this made-up-by-tom_paine fake oath?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Soldier%27s+Creed%22&aq=f&oq=

Wow, look. Right there on the first search page. A link to the creed on www.army.mil. And look down a little further, the Army Study Guide on line has a page on the Soldier's Creed.

Yep, guess I was just full of bullshit. :rofl:

You sure showed me. :rofl:

Speak the fuck up. And THIS time, why don't YOU try and say something besides bullshit. Say WHY it's bullshit or shut the fuck up and be revealed as a bullshitter yourself.

[GA_ArmyVet]

47. Ok, Let me be more specific

Taken point by point form the original post I replied to

1. Apparently, the original Oath of Enlistment remains the same. It is said by an individual basically once, when they are inducted into the Armed Forces.

(True this has not changed, except it is said every time you enlist or re-enlist)

2. What the specifics are of this story is that, for most every day AFTER induction ndthe Oath of Enlistment, Rummy invented a "new" oath to be repeated by soldiers everywhere many times a day probably, in some context or another.

(THIS PART IS BULLSHIT or CRAP or UNTRUE or whatever word you want...Not a little wrong, or misstated, JUST PLAIN CRAP. RUMMY did not invent an oath..We do not stand up and recite a creed every day, we are not mindless drones he read some mantra every day as alleged here..so Bullshit)

3. If I remember correctly, it is probably posted on walls on base, etc.

( The Army Creed is usually posted (did you read it,,it is full of things like duty, and honor, and service to country, but nothing about Military coups or Subverted Civilians or burning babies or whatever horrible things you think we do here in the Army)

4. This is still alarming. When I was serving, we only took the one Oath of Enlistment at induction. And while we had many slogans to chant "Pride, Honor, Discipline" and such, nothing like a new oath, said hundreds of times a year by soldiers everywhere in Amerika.

( Again, we still don't recite anything hundred or times a year, and as I recall in the old army we had a huge problem with drugs, murder, and corruption, so I am not sure how stressing honorable values is bad, but we don't have mass recitals or have brainwashing sessions either, the slogans and posters are no worse than those damn annoying motivational posters at most offices for "Excellence" or "Persistence")

5. Hundreds of times a year every year vs. ONCE at induction.

(Doesn't happen, can't be more specific. it just doesn't, been in 21 almost 22 years..never done it other than my oath or enlistment and then my commission)

6. Think about this as a Bushie Marketing strategy, and a brilliant one.

(Ok, I won't address issues about presidents at all since, well, it is illegal for me to say anything derogatory about any elected official (UCMJ Rule), however those Army values came about under Clinton right after the Aberdeen Proving Ground Sex assault issues came out and the Army wanted to instill values on soldiers)

7. NOW, an inducted soldier pledges his same Oath of Enlistment to the Constitution, as always once at the very beginning (and at reenlistments, etc. so it isn't exactly only one, but it only said, at most, a few times during a soldier's career. The words that say a soldier's highest oath is to the US Constitution.

(TRUE.)

8. NOW, hundreds, perhaps thousands of times throughout a soldier's career, they will chant a creed which utterly neglects the soldier's highest duty and replaced it with "the mission" (

NOT TRUE, Does not happen, i.e. BULLSHIT)

9. Think about it from a Bushie Marketing and Propaganda viewpoint. Those hundreds of repetitions, statistically-speaking, will make soldiers more loyal to the Cabal and doing whatever they say.

(Might be true, if soldiers were actually doing what was stated)

10. If it sounds like a familiar things, it should. This is Bushie Propaganda SOP they have now used to great success to literally eradicated the national memory so they can refill it will Orwellian Bushie Lies. It gives the requisite amount of Plausible Deniability, for the Bushies to freeze critics in their tracks with their usual squid ink.

( I don't have any evidence on this as it is outside of the realm of my experience but, I have not seen it in the Army, Like I said there are plenty of things wrong with our society and current administration that I, you and any other person might disagree with, but this is and the original theory of daily oath reciting in the Army as some mass conspiracy to turn the Army into Bush's Personal Army is just silly, and beyond the scope of reality)

11. But LOOK, the Oath of Enlistment is still the same..." (TRUE)

12. And it allows them to literally psychologically-engineer our soldiers to forget that their highest duty is to the Constitution. (some will still remember, because Bushie advertising and propaganda is about statistics and peeling percentages away, thus weakening and nullifying a structure gradually...some brave soldiers will most definitely remember).

(This is just psychobabble. SHOW ME THE STUDY THAT SAY THIS will "LITERALLY PSYCHOLOGICALLY ENGINEER anyone" perhaps you meant to use the word "figuratively". have you ever met any PsyOps people...that type of crap just would not work anyway in our society. Maybe if our soldiers did not have access to cable TV and the Internet and cell Phones or anything else ever...and just had the Army to provide news to them, then maybe if everyone in the training system was corrupt and every officer, and senior enlisted were corrupt, then maybe they could get away with it, but it just ain't so)



But circling back to the original point: In this case the Recuiting Office is correct

[tom_paine]

49. OK, very good, civil, and informative post. Allow me to reply in kind.

1. I know that first was in error. I remembered after it is too late to edit it out. Yes I know it is administered at re-enlistment ceremonies. Like you, I have been to them.

2. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that I both speculating and speaking rhetorically when I said those things. I tried to make it clear that I didn't know but was just guessing about how often it was repeated. More so I was making a point and I tried to make it clear that I didn't know. I guess I didn't. I also tried to make that clear in my response. I guess I didn't.

2a. OK, you said Rummy (his office, really) didn't write, promote or start the use of The Soldier's Creed. When did it become "officially" part of the "things one learns at Basic Training and remembers all one's career"? If it wasn't 2002, then you are correct and this IS 100% bullshit. If it didn't originate as a mandate from DoD under Rummy, then this is 100% bullshit as you say. Please provide more infomation to clarify. If I am mistaken, I will admit it.

3. Yes, I read it. I do not have a problem with the oath, per se. Not at all. But an AMERICAN soldier pledges first and foremost to the ideals of the Founding Fathers and/or the Constitution. I am not going to back off of the fact that I think all American Armed Services Oaths and Creeds should mention it. And if indeed the Soldier's Creed did "officially" start in 2002, then I DO find it an unpleasant and perhaps indicative thing that the people who least respect the Constitution (the Bushies, not the soldiers) have overlaid another oath over the oath of enlistment, one which doesn't mention the Constitution or Founding Values. NO ONE who ever wanted to tyrannize a nation would be so dumb as to be so obvious about it like making the Soldier's Creed about Coups or Subverting Democracy. For God's sake even the Nazis thought they were heros, not villains, and the soldiers I am sure were never presented anything so dumbly obious either like We're Nazi Germany and we want to rule the world! The main mission of the Wehrmacht is to brutalize civilians and help the SS eliminate the Jews!

Didn't happen then, with much worse tyrants than the Bushies and a much more slavish populace (certainly a much more slavish military), it DEFINITELY won't happen now.

4. I most definitely DO NOT have a problem with instilling pride, honor, and esprit de corps in soldiers. What I have a problem with is that the Constitution is not mentioned, as I said in 3.

5. Already said I never stated I was sure of that or anything like that. Good to know that's not the case, as I would have suspected. Problem is, there is little I'd put past the Bushies. Not paranoia when they really ARE out to get you.

6. Not sure what you mean by this. What exactly started during the Clinton Years? (if you think just because the Bushies are so vile, I think Clinton is angel-pure, you've got another thing coming) Please elaborate.

7/8. So, you tell me, since you have the current knowledge. How often is the Soldier's Creed referred to? Learned about and recited in Basic, I'm sure. So tell me, what about after. You told me what the Army doesn't do. Now explain to me what they do. How often will a soldier be expected to chant the Soldier's Creed? Is it often chanted whiole formations are in PT. Is it talked about and emphasized at monthy battalion-wide meetings, even if not chanted? (I was USAF, so you'll pardon me if my army terminology is off) You said it isn't recited every morning or anything (again, so upfront and obvious is not the Bushie Way...Plausible Deniability IS), so please explain how it fits into a soldier's existence these days.

Just a slogan on a wall no one ever talks about? I honestly don't know. You tell me.

9/10/11 Already went over it. Glad to know and I didn't really think that it would be something obvious like that anyway.

12. Too much to answer. Some reading material that says it better than I ever could:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

http://www.amazon.com/Blinded-Right-Ex-Conservative-David-Brock/dp/1400047285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223592719&sr=1-1
(How to create a False Reality Generating Machine, by one of it's creators)

http://www.amazon.com/End-America-Letter-Warning-Patriot/dp/1933392797/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/105-9610375-9286006

http://www.amazon.com/Give-Me-Liberty-Handbook-Revolutionaries/dp/1416590560/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_cart_1
(no, it's not even REMOTELY about violence)

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Persuaders-Vance-Packard/dp/097884310X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223592554&sr=1-1

[GA_ArmyVet]

53. Good resonse...

Right off, I like spirited debated (no sarcasm), so I really do appreciate your voiced and reasoned opinion.

Second, our points have gotten way to many so if I miss one, let me know and I will attempt to address it.

okay

Looks like we are down to

2a. OK, you said Rummy (his office, really) didn't write, promote or start the use of The Soldier's Creed. When did it become "officially" part of the "things one learns at Basic Training and remembers all one's career"? If it wasn't 2002, then you are correct and this IS 100% bullshit. If it didn't originate as a mandate from DoD under Rummy, then this is 100% bullshit as you say. Please provide more infomation to clarify. If I am mistaken, I will admit it.

It was developed by GEN SHINSEKI, a general fired by this Administration,...it was re-designed in 2003, the orginial version was developed after the Vietnam War Era, GEN Shinseki updated this to set to promote certain core values the army deemed appropriate for this new era.

ORIGINAL VERSION

I am an American Soldier.
I am a member of the United States Army -- a protector of the greatest nation on earth.
Because I am proud of the uniform I wear, I will always act in ways creditable to the military service and the nation it is sworn to guard.
I am proud of my own organization. I will do all I can to make it the finest unit in the Army.
I will be loyal to those under whom I serve. I will do my full part to carry out orders and instructions given to me or my unit.
As a soldier, I realize that I am a member of a time-honored profession--that I am doing my share to keep alive the principles of freedom for which my country stands.
No matter what the situation I am in, I will never do anything, for pleasure, profit, or personal safety, which will disgrace my uniform, my unit, or my country.
I will use every means I have, even beyond the line of duty, to restrain my Army comrades from actions disgraceful to themselves and to the uniform.
I am proud of my country and its flag.
I will try to make the people of this nation proud of the service I represent, for I am an American Soldier.

3.Ok. got your point. I dont think this is what is going on here, but you are entitled to your opinion..I just dont see conspiracy here.

4. Ok, I got it..but remember it is not an oath. No one swears fealty or recites...it is just for reinforcing or reminding soldiers of values.


5. Good. We seem to agree in reply.

6. I mentioned it occured during the Clinton Era, because it did. Not because you may think Clinton is pure, but because if it was a Bush conspiracy, he would have had to been able to being the conspiracy before he was in office, or Clinton was in on it.


7. About the creed, I gotta tell you..I had never even seen it, until I looked it up on youy link. I have seen the posters, like tghe motivational posters in most offices hanging up. I am also sure there probably learn it in the Professional development Schools, but chanting it en masse. never seen it...I suppose it could happen in some units, but if so you can rest assured the troops think the CO making them do it is a joke. We just are not the Army of the 70s anymore..Troops would be laughing their butts off about it... So yeah, it is more slogan and promotion/soldier of the year kind of thing.
Personnally I have never even seen it in full until today when I followed your link. I initially thought you meant the NCO Creed or Army Values Cards.

9/10/11, we seem square on.

12. I gotta admit, I have to read all those links first, before I can respond but even if I accept the premise that it can happen, they are chanting an oath, so I dont think this particular event applies. However, you are entitle to have you opinion, I just dont believe that is what is happening with this issue.

[tom_paine]

58. Great response yourself. This has been an enjoyable and informative conversation for me

I will agree with you on this thing: After "speaking" to you, I now believe that, as I mentioned on another Naomi Wolf thread you may not have seen, this evening, that I thought that while her overall premises are definitely true to some degree or perhaps all true, some of her examples are a bit exaggerated. And that the Soldier's Creed is not likely part of the Big Picture or even the Little Picture. It's pretty much just what it seems to be, a motivational slogan that does not mention the US Constititution.

Look at my DU monniker. I LIKE the US Constitution. I think it should be mentioned in every American soldiers' oath somewhere.

If you watched the 27 min. YouTube, which I would advise, you'll see that it was not she but the interviewer who brought it up. It was FAR from being among her main points, and so I am not sure the whole topic, started by the interviewer, can even be pinned to her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

I do hope you look at some of those links, and if you watch the YouTube you willhave an idea what her book, the one you really should read, "Give me Liberty", I think you will see that she's alot more right than she is wrong. Give her a fair hearing. Try to find and start reading Give Me Liberty. If it's full of Commie Nonsense, don't continue. Ironically, given it's title, I'll bet it's not at the base library, in spite of the fact that it's full of praise and reverence for our Founding Ideals.

It will be interesting to know if you catch any static from higher-ups, if instead of buying it on amazon.com, you try to get it through the Base Library.

It would be interesting to see, and if I remember how things work in the service, a good indicator of just how right about things Naomi and I are, if you caught shit from some direction about it after you went through the Base Library to get the book.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is a relatively harmless (or maybe not, if your superiors start giving you the business for being a Commie Pinko, and forever looking at you funny because of it) way to see how right Naomi is.

Go ahead, request her book through the base library. The worse the blowback and problems you suffer because of your choice in reading material, or if suddenly out of the blue your career starts taking mysterious negative turns (unlikely, but possible...you may find out the hard way how possible), the more right Naomi and I are.

Unfortuately, the converse is not true. So, if you get no blowback after performing this experiment,it doesn't necessarily mean Naomi and I are 100% wrong, neither does it mean qwe are 100% if you do get blowback.

But now, I would be interested to see you try and hear back from you in a year.

Check out the other items, too, if you wish to and have time.

I am very glad to know more US Military are coming here. As with any open forum, there is a lot of static, a lot of noise and shit to plow through.

But there's some real gems in the streambed, some real wheat among the chaff. Check out the Environment/Energy Forum for a real dose of hard scientific data on the state of the world in a number of different ways.

And a belated Welcome to DU, GA_Army Vet,:toast: and once again please accept my deepest apologies for coming in "guns blazing" at you, at first.

As the old saw goes, I had mistaken you for some-whole-other-body.

Welcome. :toast:

[GA_ArmyVet]

50. I did not mention the Creed in the my initial reply so

This is the Creed

The Soldier's Creed

I am an American Soldier.
I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.
I am an expert and I am a professional.
I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
I am an American Soldier.



and honestly until I went to your link, I had never seen it, but not sure what part of this creed bothers you...A creed is not an oath, no affirmation or appeal to higher authority..i.e. "god". There is also an NCO creed which kind of outlines the values of an NCO.


Nothing conspiratorial that I can see..and again not recited everyday. or even every month..to be honest, I have never

[jmowreader]

56. Speaking of the NCO Creed

No one is more professional than I. I am a Noncommissioned Officer, a leader of soldiers. As a Noncommissioned Officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of Noncommissioned Officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.

Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind -- accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. I am aware of my role as a Noncommissioned Officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.

Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, Noncommissioned Officers, leaders!

It doesn't rank up there with the Chief's Charge (what sailors recite when promoted to Chief Petty Officer), but it's okay.

[Fuzz]

33. What is this oath and where would one find it?

I've been googling.

[tom_paine]

41. Here's the link

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Soldier%27s+Creed%22&aq=f&oq=

[Subdivisions]

42. The Warriors' Creed...

The current version of the Soldier's Creed is a product of the "Warrior Ethos" program authorized by Army Chief of Staff Eric K. Shinseki in May 2003. It was first presented to senior Army leaders on June 7, 2003.The Soldiers Creed was approved in its current format by the Army Chief of Staff Peter Schoomaker on the 24th of November of 2003. The introduction of the Soldiers Creed kicked off a campaign known as Task Force Soldier. This was a commitment by senior leadership to the soldiers of the Army. Task Force Soldier is a leadership commitment to soldiers ensuring that they are prepared for combat and embody the Warrior Ethos that is contained in the Soldiers Creed. It seems to have been discussed in Congress in a "Hearing on Army Issues" held by Senator John W. Warner on or about November 19, 2003. It was first published in the magazine Infantry on December 22, 2003.

I am an American Soldier.
I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States, and live the Army Values.
I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.
I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills.
I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.
I am an expert and I am a professional.
I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
I am an American Soldier.
Some soldiers shout "hooah" at the conclusion of the Soldier's Creed, but it is not included in the creed itself.

The U.S. Army Warrior Ethos is a set of standards that all U.S. Army soldiers are encouraged to live by. It is meant to be the core embodiment of the soldier's mission. It has been incorporated into the Soldier's Creed and is italicized in the text above.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

44. I am an American soldier. I will always place the mission first.

There you go... bu$h's MISSION comes first. I feel sick.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

45. Oaths of Enlistment

In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

In the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of (STATE NAME) against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of (STATE NAME) and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.

[tom_paine]

46. Bingo. How about "I am an American Soldier. I will always place the Constitution first."

Naah. Too "Bill Ayres".

[GA_ArmyVet]

30. Well, Naomi is full of shit

I just re-enlisted 3 soldiers today. It is still in, and we do defend the constitution and acknowledge that we are subject to CIVILIAN elected leadership. Period. End. Stop.

[Zhade]

34. Sure. An assertion from an unknown person on the internet is way more credible than Wolf.

:rofl:

[bdab1973]

61. I'm just as unknown as you are, so who's right?

I back up GA_Army_Vet...

I am a USAF officer, and I have NEVER seen some other oath that was "invented" by Rumsfeld. We have an Airman's Creed which was created by the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, but it has nothing to do with subverting the US Constitution.

The Oath we all say when we enter the military is the foundation of our service, and it supercedes any "creed". The various creeds out there serve to focus individuals on what they are supposed to be doing as professional soldiers, sailors, Marines or airmen. It is meant to prevent a decay in morale and standards. It is NOT meant to replace the Oath. The original Oath is still present, and it is still the one stated whenever an enlisted member re-enlists, or when an officer accepts a commission and can be said when they are promoted to a higher grade.

We are all bound by the Constitution, and that is where our loyalties lie. Even the most devout Republican members I work with understand this. It's very sad, and shows a huge gap between the civilian population and military servicemembers, that so many people would buy this garbage (and it is garbage) that those of us in the military would abandon our principles and loyalty to our country to support an administration or political party.

Just as an example...I was flying into Savannah once, and at the time I was a copilot. The pilot in command was a huge GOP fan. At the airport, Trent Lott appears, stumping for a GOP buddy of his in Georgia. He attempted to get a photo op with us wearing campaign buttons, and my friend told him NO, it wouldn't be ethical. We were in uniform, and doing so would make it appear that military officers were endorsing his candidacy. I was duly impressed.

Not all would be such sticklers for the rules, but most are. Give us some credit. And just FYI, I would NEVER appear next to Obama or anyone while in uniform with campaign buttons, stickers or things like that, unless I was next to a politician in the course of my duties (ie, military advisor to the president, etc).

[tom_paine]

43. LOL. AN ARMY RECRUITER. LOL LOL LOL LOL

Troll on boards you despise, much, liar?

Know how I know you are a liar? Because everyone and I mean EVERYONE know that there is almost no one in the military (an insitiution that lies repeatedly to it's members as a matter of course) that lies as much as a recruiter.

I know. I was recruited by one. When I was in the service, I knew them and drank with them. Liars all. They'd tell you how much they lie to reel the suckers in. Laugh about it...among themselves. And of course, sleep the calm and peaceful sleep of the Righteous Liar...lying for a good cause.

If you are not a recruiter, I apologize. Perhaps you are a commander who administers the oath of enlistment.

But I am always suspicious when someone comes on a thread and starts swinging, telling everyone how wrong they are but not WHY. That is a sure sign of a lair or a bullshitter.

So again I say, if you don't want to be though of as a troll and a liar, which is all you have brought ot the table so far, you should probably elaborate.

Bullying and demand people accept what you say unquestionably might be good enough for "Army Logic", but it just doesn't fly elsewhere and doubly so at DU.

So, elaborate and back it up with FACTS, not just yuour bellowed opinion, or shut the fck up. This isn't the army. We aren't dumb enough to fall for that Michael savage/Bill O'Reilly "he who shouts the loudest is sincerest".

Back up your assertions, or get back to deceiving young men and women, telling them not to worry about pre-reserving a job MOS, and that they'll NEVER get sent to Iraq.

:rofl:

I very much await your reply. Will it be more short declarative bullshit, signifying nothing but that you speak "Michael Savage"? (a well-known liar and coward who dpdged the Vietnam Draft topick flowers in hawaii - listen to him on the radio much? Bet you DO.)

Or will you try to back up what you say with something more worthewhile than bloviating indignation?

[GA_ArmyVet]

48. Not a troll or a recruiter

I am an officer, and my 3 soldiers, all re-enlisted and asked me to to swear them in with the oath. I am proud of the soldiers who work for me. All 3 by the way are voting for Obama, and I have already sent in my ballot. So whatever, believe what you want, but I am here everyday, reading and learning. I only respond to things I know about and since I am here in the Army, I know..but whatever believe someone who is not here everyday, and working with young soldiers everyday, doing our job everyday, for the last 20 years. Hell come down and see us at your local base, we are not closed. Watch us train, see us run, laugh and play and cry, just like real people do...it is amazing..

[tom_paine]

51. My apologies for jumping down your throat. These are stressful times.

Though that is no excuse.

And I am very well aware that soldiers are real people. I used to be one.



As I said, my apologies for being so immediately hostile without cause. I think much of our difference comes from misunderstanding between and my love of sweeping rhetoric to "clarify situations by takingthem to the nth degree to make a point). I sometimes forget that sometimes it sounds like something completely different than what I intended when said to someone who doesn't know me, either in the real or cyber sense.

And thank you for your service. :patriot:

[GA_ArmyVet]

54. No problem...

No offense taken...and we all get grumpy sometimes...I vent here often myself....and thank you for your service as well.

[tom_paine]

52. Even if Naomi is wrong about this, she is most definitely NOT full of shit.

Give her a hearing, as in the books I linked to in one of my other posts, especially Give Me Liberty, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

That woman has read and understood her Founding Fathers, as have I and I certainly hope you have read your share of Paine, Franklin, Jefferson and the rest (I'll bet you have) Even if you disagree the other stuff she asserts (and all she ever said was that the Soldeir's Creed was brought on board by Rummy in '02, and her and the radio guy the agreed it was disturbing and perhaps part of a pattern that it did not mention the Constituion and seemed toinferthe highest loyalty was to the MISSION, and therefore to Chain of command.

Can we both agree that an American Soldier's Highest Duty, no matter what the service, is to the U.S. Constitution?

[GA_ArmyVet]

55. Ok...I wiil admit my rhetoric was a bit strong so I apoligise to Naomi

I just get a bit defensive when it comes to the conspiracy theorist claims that all us poor soldiers are just brainwashed idiots who are too stupid to think for ourselves.. We are proud soldiers who do a lot of training and work very hard and are far from being the stupid uneducated masses that everyone seems to think we are. Most of my soldiers have at least a BS, and several have a Masters or are working on them.

[tom_paine]

60. I don't blame you a bit. The fault is mine for sloppy rhetoric.

And I can certainly see how you interpreted my first post as such. hell, when I went back and read it from that angle, it seemed pretty clear to ME that's what I was saying (even though I wasn't).

(smacks forehead)



And you are absolutely right about 98% of the soldiers. I say this only because there are always some bad apples in any organization/group/whatever, else why do you sometimes see those fellas doing weeds & seeds by the side of the road with the ghost chevrons on their arms and guarded by MPs - or don't they have that anymore? - but you get my drift.

That is what makes what has been done to the Armed Forces by the Bushies so damned agonizing and painful, even back here where it seems everything is calculated to make people FORGET there's a war on. 4000 dead soldiers...for nothing. God, it hurts to say that, but I have to because it's the awful truth.

And all the wounded, probably close to 100,000 by now. How can we know in Bush's "Soviet America"? It's been 25,000 wounded now for three years, according to those BushCommie tyrant liars. I know, you can't type in anything bad about Dear Fuhrer, so just quietly nod and know we're all out here standing with you and you with us.

It's hard to even think about it and not get enraged. Bin Laden free. Iraq a mess. The nation looted.

Even 20 years ago or more, you pretty much has to have at least a BS to be an officer. I think, back in the 80s, only in the army still could a person without a degree be an officer, and I'll bet not even that loophole exists anymore, right?

But anyway, that's a lot of words to say I agree with your post, except I think that as you dig into it and research it, you will find that neither myself nor Naomi Wolf are conspiracy theorists as much as we are knowledgable individuals drawing off the experience of history to voice legtimate concerns about the direction our nation is going.

But one thing is certain. The Soldier's Creed is not among those legitimate concerns, and if you watch the YouTube you will find that it wasn't among Naomi's list of legitimate concerns, either.

[leeroysphitz]

38. Bullshit.

That statement confirms what I have suspected: Wolf is a kook like Alex Jones and other Tin Foil Commandos.

[mmonk]

39. It's unconstitutional plain and simple.

[amdezurik]

4. until the RNC declare the U.S. a "war zone"

that tinydeputy sure does sound tiny in many many ways, as well as quite tinny...

[NeedleCast]

6. I'm curious as to where you think this unit lives when it's not deployed

I mean, we don't stuff them in a box and only let them out when it's time for war.

I continue to be confused as to what the problem here is. 1st Brigade, 3 ID, when not in a combat zone, is stationed in the US. So are dozens of other active duty infanty bridageds. Unless they actually get deployed somewhere, they sit in garrison doing various training tasks.

Not like they're bringing 1st brigade back and setting them loose roaming the streets of major cities looking for civilians to shoot.

[tuckessee]

8. If it's "business as usual" why did the Army Times write the article in the first place?

Is this the brigade in which you bear arms?

[NeedleCast]

9. I have no idea

but the reaction here sure has been profound as there have been a number of previous threads on this topic. I agree we should always be on the alert for creeping-up of a police state, but the fact that this brigade has been sent back to garrison and is doing some disaster training/crowd control training just doesn't register very high on my "oh-shit-o-meter." What is this unit doing that pretty much the entire national guard component of our military hasn't been doing since it's inception?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

11. Part of the alarm is because they promise new weaponry

never before used here, and tested in Iraq, where these troops have spent at least three YEARS training. Imagine the implications.

I also think many of us misread the original article and thought the troops were coming DIRECTLY from Iraq to the US - appears not so, at least not all of them did. But that is irrelevant, really.

[wtmusic]

13. Probably this

http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/21/less-lethal-riot-control-ray-gun-to-be-deployed-in-iraq-next/

If there is an obviously rigged election or an out-and-out power grab, you can bet these will be deployed in all urban areas including DC.

Unlikely, but the precautionary principle dictates that we prepare for all eventualities.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

14. and this

microelectromechanical systems (MEMS)

http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=670


combined with RFID?

[NeedleCast]

20. Given that incredibly unlikely scenario

Do you think the troops would obey an order to fire on civilians? There are plenty of democrats in the military. Despite the view of some people on DU, soldiers are not just blood-thirsty thugs with nothing more than a desire to go around killing innocent people.

There are already troops deployed all over DC and the surrounding area guarding various military and civilian installations. I walk past them every day on my one block walk from the Clarendon metro station to my office. Amazingly, despite the fact that I'm often carrying Obama bumper stickers or other democratic symbology, they have thus far resisted the urge to pump me full of bullets.

I agree that we should always keep a weather eye out for anything that curbs our freedom, but I still haven't seen any argument that convinces me that this is an issue.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

26. Hmmm... Were you aware of the illegal arrests and physical assaults on peaceful protestors

at the RNC in St Paul last month?

[NeedleCast]

19. Troops spend their entire lives training

most of that training is in their chosen field and that requires training on new technology, whether that technology be in the form of a weapon or a computer or a X-ray machine.

Again, if the troops aren't going from Iraq directly back to the US, where do you expect them to go in the interem? The Third ID is a division stationed and headquartered in the US (Fort Myers, Virginia). Who do you think lives at all these military bases around the country? Most units in Iraq come straight back to the US when their deployment is over assuming they are not coming from an overseas assignment like Germany, Korea, Italy, etc.

So again, what are the implications?

[bdab1973]

62. You are correct, but so many people are ignorant of this

There is a huge gulf between "civilians" and "military".

For example, when I explained that I owned a house, some people are surprised (I am in the USAF) that I didn't live in a barracks. I responded that officers can't live in barracks, and many enlisted guys don't either. The only ones that do are junior enlisted that aren't married.

I had another extended family member tell me at the funeral for my wife's father that "you guys should be heading back soon, you know your Sergeant will get mad at you and make you do pushups if you don't get home on time". Uh, well, I am a Captain, and I don't have a "sergeant", and they don't make you do pushups. And if I needed extra time I would call my commander and get my leave extended.

I've had numerous people tell me that they think when you make a mistake at work in the military, you have some big, brawny sergeant yell at you and make you do pushups or run around. They are very surprised when I tell them it's very much like a civilian job, except we wear uniforms and have unit esprit de corps. I am in a flying squadron and we're very professional...we don't yell, we don't walk around bare-chested with our dog tags hanging, we don't hoot and holler for no reason...we're normal people flying airplanes day in and day out.

I took my cousin to my base to show her around because she was interested in the military, and she said she was very surprised...she thought it would be a bunch of dirt with tents, camo netting, and troops running in formation. Instead she saw dorm rooms for the junior enlisted, lots of facilities for the families (ie, pool, library, base exchange, etc), and my squadron building was well maintained, and had great facilities. I think the "normalcy" of the infrastructure took her by surprise. And no, she didn't see any troops running in formation...

I think this board is indicative of the lack of familiarity with the military in our country. So many people have NO IDEA, or they base their assumptions on (1) the movies (2) older relatives that served in different times. The military of 1960 is vastly different than the military of 2008, but at the same time, it's the same. The Oath is the same, but the way we take care of families and our infrastructure is much improved.

[wtmusic]

12. Ever heard of Posse Comitatus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

[NeedleCast]

21. Yes

What does it have to do with this?

Let me know when 1st brigade starts violating it.

[MadrasT]

27. Patrick Leahy is concerned...

Leahy Concerned About NorthCom’s New Army Unit

Senator Patrick Leahy is concerned about the Pentagon's decision to designate an Army unit to Northern Command.

-snip-

This marks a change for NorthCom, which was established on October 1, 2002. Its website still says it "has few permanently assigned forces," and that "the command is assigned forces whenever necessary to execute missions, as ordered by the President and the Secretary of Defense." Leahy "asked for a briefing from his staff" on this development and "wants to monitor the situation," an aide to Leahy said.

Leahy was instrumental in getting Congress to repeal the "Insurrection Act Rider" in the 2006 defense appropriations bill. That rider had given the President sweeping power to use military troops in ways contrary to the Insurrection Act and Posse Comitatus Act. The rider authorized the President to have troops patrol our streets in response to disasters, epidemics, and any "condition" he might cite.

Leahy said last December that this rider "made it easier for the President to take over the Guard and to declare martial law." In a Senate statement on April 24, 2007, he cautioned against inserting the military "into domestic situations." As he put it: "One of the distinguishing characteristics of the United States is that we do not use the military to patrol our communities and neighborhoods." A few months before that, he warned that we must ensure that "the military is not used in a way that offends and endangers some of our most cherished values and liberties."

The repeal of the rider was signed by Bush on January 28, though Amy Goodman reports that "Bush attached a signing statement that he did not feel bound by the repeal."

The roles the 1st Brigade Combat Team will take on at NorthCom are a bit unclear.

-more at link-

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/08-1

[Zhade]

35. IT IS ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO BE DEPLOYED ON U.S. SOIL.

They're violating it right now.

[old mark]

64. The 3rd Infantry Division "lives" at Fort Stewart, Georgia.

If you google Ft Stewart, GA, you will find a lot of information on them, none of it supporting the rightwing bullshit in the quotes in the OP.

I don't think this is a threat, it is just the Army doing Army stuff.

FWIW, I went through the Gas House a few times in the army back in the 1960's and I didn't like it either. It is training designed to let you experience what a situation is like and it has been around since WWI at least.

mark

[paparush]

17. Can you say ADS! Gonna fry your ass (or maybe my ass)

The Active Denial System (ADS) developed by Raytheon for the US Air Force Research Labs is a non lethal, counter-personnel directed energy non-lethal weapon which can be used against human targets at distances beyond the effective range of small arms. ADS projects a focused millimeter wave energy beam which induces intolerable heating sensation on an adversary's skin and cause that individual to be repelled without injury. ADS could be used to stop, deter and repel hostile elements without applying of lethal force.


ADS was developed by Raytheon company for the US Air Force Research Laboratory (ARL) and DOD Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate. The program is currently in Advanced Concept Technology Demonstrator (ACTD) phase, which is scheduled to continue through the end of 2005. ADS will be operated from HMMWV, equipped with adequate power sources. Another application of ADS is considered for airborne applications, from platforms such as the AC-130 gunship. The development program will use more powerful and lightweight version of the land based system. This project is scheduled to continue through 2008.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/a/ads.htm

[nichomachus]

18. This guy has it partly right

They are not coming to shoot YOU. A little common sense.....no need to get riled up. They are doing the same thing our National Guard has been doing for years people.

You have nothing to fear -- as long as you do what you're told...as long as you stay indoors and pull the drapes when told to...as long as you don't ask any questions...as long as you don't object or try to interfere when your neighbor is being dragged from the house screaming and is beaten and tazed in the street. However, if you try to exercise any of your rights under the Constitution, you will be considered one of "them." And then you are fair game.

The commanders will invent a name for people like you -- along the lines of "gook" or "Haji" or "raghead." This will depersonalize you and make it easier for the troops (whom you "supported" all these years) to kick the shit out of you as they drag you away.

Just do what you're told, keep quiet, obey, keep your head down, ask no questions -- and everything will be OK.

[VP505]

23. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[Holly_Hobby]

22. The National Guard will shoot innocent people too if ordered

Kent State.

[GA_ArmyVet]

57. No, Untrained kids in a stressful situation

will fire when into crowds when scared shitless because they are not trained how to handle the situation correctly.. Lack of training leads to rapid escalation to deadly force. So training for all situations is a good thing....Training for a response to anything is not a violation of Posse Comitatus...ENFORCING CIVIL LAW IS.with certain exceptions...example the Military Investigative Services may investigate civilians if there is a link known as a Military Nexus, however I digress,...Lack of training leads to people dying...Good training lessens the potential for fatal accidents/incidents.

[MadHound]

25. That seems stupid on the face of it

Using non-lethal weapons, most of which are short range, in a war zone:wtf: Sounds like a bogus cover story to me.

[KansDem]

29. Hmmm...I clicked on the "Army Times" link and a message pops up saying "AWOL"

Bush must have taken it...

[anigbrowl]

32. If Obama becomes president...

(which I hope and believe he will), every single military news update, no matter how innocuous, will be dissected by the freepers as 'evidence' that he's gone off the rails and is planning to turn the Us into a vast gulag or similar. There was a constant stream of this during the Clinton administration and there will be a constant stream of it during an Obama administration.

Frankly, I think people are being a little paranoid.

[bdab1973]

63. Exactly...

I remember when Clinton was in office, and I heard all the theories about how Waco was just the beginning, and the often circulated story of a trucker who found barbed wire, etc that was supposed to build concentration camps. My ex-father-in-law was one of those people...he would always ask me about the "black helicopters" he saw flying around and I told him those were Louisiana Army Guard helicopters (which I flew at the time) and he would always seem disappointed when I pointed out the fact that the dark green helicopters looked black from a distance...he was certain that Clinton was trying to use the military to lock us all up.

I would always ask the question "so, do you think I am trying to round all of you up?" and the answer was always "well, no, not you, but those others...". Yes, it was always some faceless "others" that were poised to impose martial law.

This topic about NORTHCOM is off base and please stop making everyone associated with this site look like tinfoil hat loonies.

[OakCliffDem]

37. Of course they are not using weapons on civilians - its just practice to use them on civilian

[clear eye]

59. Yeah, they got their unregulated bailout..

Treasury is empty. Mission accomplished. Enter figurehead Democratic government to take the fall for the suffering to come.

No need to scare the bejeebus out of Congress and the populace anymore. We'll all be economic serfs in short order. No money left to save the economy, even if Congress all suddenly wanted to act like New Dealers.