Tin Foil hattery is part of the problem, really

[nadinbrzezinski]

we have had posts going... I want to know who took the money out of the market? this is a person who has NO CLUE how the market works

Simply fund managers and others decided to sell... and it was a panic sale

In the fantasy we also read this is being run from the white house... the same white house that has been way late to the party in even admitting there was a problem... oh like the Hoover White House

Then there is the healthy mistrust of the guv'ment, since they have cried wolf a LOT... to the point nobody believes him... hell if he told me it was night outside, I'd have to look out... that said... go home, find the nursery rhyme the kid who cried wolf, and go to the end... find out how the story ends... the wolf is out there... baying as I type.

For the record this reminds me of some of the things I have read in the fantasy land that is Free Republic...

It is scary how people are truly ignorant, no matter where they post, and how similar their "opinions" are.

Suffice it to say that just like the 1929 crisis, yesterday we had a crash... and the economy will more or less chug along for a little while... after all the real crisis of bank failures started in '31, just a little history here

Now what happened back then?

The banks mistrusted each other and would not lend money to each other, with the interbank interest going quite high... check

A mortgage crisis due to cheap credit.......check

A mistrust of government....... check

The fundamentals are strong ...... when they are not.......check

A desire of the American people to do nothing.......... check

and I could go on.

Will this be another depression? Depends how fast that essential trust that will allow for credit to be loosened up... and grease up the economy

Suffice it to say that Massachusetts did not get credit today... which also happened during that era...

And we know anecdotally that many small businesses are getting their lines of credit greatly reduced or suspended... which is what also led to that other crisis.

People need to connect some dots

As is, the plan that was not passed has allowed the RIGHT WING fanatics to get their fantasies in, such as more tax cuts, capital gains,

I hope you are happy now... a descent bill is now in the process of getting watered down and on its way to becoming a REAL BAD bill, that will only have the trickle down elements, instead of some of the bottom up elements, mark my words.. . by the end of the day this will LOOK like the Hoover bailout of the banks in 1931... instead of a fairly progressive bill

I am now realizing that it is the murican people who are ignorant, and proud of it, and it does not matter what is your politics... ignorance is ignorance is ignorance.

[anigbrowl]

1. Sorry, couldn't hear you over the sound of the black helicopters chasing the UFOs

I'd turn the volume up, but it was repossessed because the people on Wall Street don't want me to hear the TRUTH on Coast to Coast AM radio.

Yes, it is very sad but a lot of people are quite ignorant, including many within the left. This is why I decided some time ago that I might as well just admit to being an elitist because I would rather limit democracy slightly than be ruled over by stupid people.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Well said! nt

[RainDog]

3. you keep forgetting to include the part where Hoover engineered a bail out

that's part of the scenario, but that also makes the current bail out look like a possible waste too.

it is incredible, however, to see you here blaming people on this board for the mtg/housing disaster. talk about a tin-foil hat being on a little too tight!

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. I have not blamed anybody on this board for the crisis

but the bill that will be passed will NOT have the bottom up elements since now they NEED to bring the righties in

So the BILL THAT WILL BE BEFORE THE SENATE TOMORROW will look like the 1931 bail out plan

Something about self fulfilling prophecies

[Truth2Tell]

20. So riddle me this ...

Why not re-write the bill to bring more progressives on-board instead of more Pukes?

And let's assume your chicken little sky really is falling. You still haven't provided a single shred of evidence that THIS particular plan will fix the problem.

But thanks for the condescending lecture. I think we all appreciate it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. the way it is evolving right now... you are right

it had a LARGE expansion of the HOPE program that would allow people to renegotiate their house loans

Wanna bet that will be gone?

As to why they are not building a fully progressive bill, I sugested one... is quite simple... they fear a senate filibuster


I say go for it.

As to the condescending lecture, apparently I am an employee of Lehamn brothers ... news to me

And me getting paid to do this.

And yes, tin foil hattery (incidentally on both the American left and the right) is part of the problem. Many a fantasies are coming together.

Oh and by the way... there is a difference between the LEFT and the American version of it

[Truth2Tell]

30. I haven't accused you of shilling for Lehman

for the record I believe you are 100% sincere. Just wrong on this one.

And just because some anti-bailout folks have embraced the tin-foil doesn't mean the bailout is a good thing. Some on your side have engaged in bit of hyperbole themselves, in case you haven't noticed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Not you, broad brush

and I said, the bill, as it is taking form right now, is worst... much worst, than you can imagine

It will have a "positive" effect for a short while, but will do nothing in the long term

See 1931-34 period, for an idea of what MIGHT be in store.

The parallels right now are down right scary

As to my side... the fact that we have businesses and now one state unable to get commercial paper is predictive in these crisis.

You tell me that is not happening? And that this is hyperbole?

[Truth2Tell]

60. I'm not saying that is not happening.

I'm saying this bailout won't stop it from happening. Big difference.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Several points

nobody who is honest about this is saying that it will stop this from happening, just will reduce the SEVERITY of it, big difference... we are in a recession... there is a difference from a light one, to a severe one, or even a depression.

Anybody who is honest is also telling you that this bill is far from perfect

And finally... this is JUST THE FIRST OF A SERIES OF BILLS that will have to come in the next two years or so... read this again, the first of a series of bills that will be required to address multiple aspects of this crisis... and each of them WILL HAVE to be laser sharp (and we need a majority that will allow them to pass regardless of the free market religious fanatics in the House in particular)

It depends on how much they hear from you (the american people, not specifically you) about the TYPE of legislation that they will pass... this includes taking to the streets and ahem hard core organizing.

This is one of those rare moments where we could and should get the type of progressive legislation that we need... but only if we demand it... and that is exactly what I am telling congress every time I call them. SInce I READ the damn thing I can also tell them in detailed form what I don't like about this bill and what I like about it (and there is precious little and some of that has gone away due to the negotiating with the Lucy congress)

But the alternative is to do nothing... and see a severe downturn.. one that may even FIT the definition of a Depression... 10% or more reduction in GNP. I'd take even a deep recession over a depression any day of the week and twice on Sunday...

Problem is that people are going on emotion, and I hate that we are at this point as well. I am angry as well... but have not let emotion take over instead looking at this as impassionately as I can.

[Mojorabbit]

4. The bail out won't work

The tax cuts will be put in it and will put us even more in debt. We will crash anyway. I just want it to happen before Obama is sworn in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Not in the form it is now taking

since it is starting to look like the 1931 bill that we know FAILED

[Mojorabbit]

14. It won't work

because housing prices have dropped and there is a glut of houses. I read that in 09 millions of mortgages are due to reset. More will go into foreclosure. The amt of the original loans for the properties is more than they are now worth. I expect prices to continue to drop.

It is a giveaway to the system, a hidden tax to buy these nonperforming or under performing loans. The govt and citizens will suffer a loss on the paper regardless but we will be further in debt and it will be more than a trillion I am guessing.

I am waiting any day for the world bank to come in and sell off our assets. I think it will be done under the radar at first.
All those countries that have bought our treasuries to fund our warmongering will only take so much loss. We are broke now and borrowing billions just to make the interest payments. Yes, I am pessimistic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Did you READ the bill? It had an expansion of the HOPE program

allowing the gov'ment to help homeowners renegotiate

I am betting that will be gone too

Problem is most people didn't take the time to read the bill as it was evolving... and I fear that includes plenty of members of congress

On edit, so essentially as this becomes increasingly the 1931 bailout bill, I agree it will not work... not in this form

In the form it had, there was a chance, not a guarantee

[Mojorabbit]

19. I read it

from what I understand the hope program has been a failure so far and the language was something like encourage etc instead of mandated. There was a lot of vagueness in the bill. Still, what I am reading about the next one is infinitely worse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. It has not been a failure, though not the success

I'd like

And yes, what is coming down the pike reminds me of the 1931 failure

And it might be a trap for the dems for two years down the pike

Not that this politics thing may matter, as this particular moment also has parallels to the fall of the USSR.. and we may see this country break apart before too long... given we were this close to revolution back in '32... I'd not discount that happening

[wtmusic]

32. And no cap - so people with $5M homes could renegotiate on your dime

or did you miss that part

[girl gone mad]

29. Well then fight against it and stop panicking. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Given I have sent comments each step of the process

and know the mood was changing it is funny that you tell me that.

Hysterical in fact

By the way... here is a real story

Many years ago I was a young EMT in another country

We had a very large boom at a gas processing facility, the kind that leaves hundreds of people dead

Next day, while on duty it went off AGAIN... and I LOST IT... as in LOST IT, run out panic.

I learned that day that lesson. you don't let your emotions take over in the middle of a disaster

Many of you have... and it is due to essential hate of the boy who cried wolf way too many times

Not that many of us could blame you, but this is truly a case of the stuck clock is right twice a day.

[Dover]

44. I wonder if you sent one to Kucinich and Michael Moore and a long list of

economists that were against this bailout too. Are they ignorant?

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Given that many of those in that long list are SUPPLY SIDERS, chicago school boys

I wonder why they would be opposed.... really do...

The fundamental problem we have right now is that the Murican people have NOT read the damn bill

There was a day when Americans DID THAT

These days... why bother?

As to Michael Moore, he is calling this a coup... which this is not... I respect him, but boy this is NOT a coup

Now I've said this before, and I will say it again

This is far from perfect.... in fact this is going to be a first in a series of bills that will result in the changes we need... see Great Depresion... and the process to get the legislation

But we will only get that kind of legislation if people are willing to fight for it beyond the keyboard

[Dover]

56. And your thoughts about Obama's team of economists?

June 3, 2008
The List: Obama's Economists
We've mentioned these before in individual posts. Here's a unified list:

Economic policy advisors:
Jason Furman (director of economic policy) source bio
Austan Goolsbee (senior economic policy advisor), University of Chicago tax policy expert source Wikipedia website
Karen Kornbluh (policy director) source bio Wikipedia
David Cutler, Harvard health policy expert source Wikipedia website
Jeff Liebman, Harvard welfare expert source Wikipedia website
Michael Froman, Citigroup executive source bio
Daniel Tarullo, Georgetown law professor source bio
David Romer, Berkeley macroeconomist source website
Christina Romer, Berkeley economic historian source website
Richard Thaler, University of Chicago behavioral finance expert source Wikipedia

Robert Rubin, former Treasury Secretary source Wikipedia bio
Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary source Wikipedia bio
Alan Blinder, former Vice-chairman of the Federal Reserve source Wikipedia bio website
Jared Bernstein, Economic Policy Institute labor economist source bio
James Galbraith, University of Texas macroeconomist source Wikipedia website

Paul Volcker, Chairman of the Federal Reserve 1979-1987 source Wikipedia
Laura Tyson, Berkeley international economist, Bill Clinton economic adviser source Wikipedia
Robert Reich, Berkeley public policy professor, former Secretary of Labor source Wikipedia weblog
Peter Henry, Stanford international economist source website
Gene Sperling, former White House economic adviser source Wikipedia

Other prominent economists who support Obama:
Brad Delong, Berkeley macroeconomist source Wikipedia website weblog
Joseph Stiglitz, 2001 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia
Edmund Phelps, 2006 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia
Ray Fair, Yale macroeconomist source Wikipedia
Dan McFadden, 2000 Nobel laureate source website
Robert Solow, 1987 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia

Prominent finance people who support Obama:
(not actually economists)
William Donaldson, Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) Chair 2003-05 source Wikipedia
Arthur Levitt, SEC chair 1993-2001 source Wikipedia
David Ruder, SEC chair 1987-1989 source Wikipedia
Warren Buffet, investor, richest person in world source Wikipedia


http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-economic-advisors-and-economic.html
------------------------

Wal-Mart Defender To Direct Obama's Economic Policy
Appointment of Jason Furman Immediately Meets With Skepticism

June 10, 2008

Just days after clinching the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Obama is naming as his economic policy director an economist who has clashed with critics of Wal-Mart by defending the company as a boon to poor Americans.

The appointment of Jason Furman, 37, a former Clinton administration official who is a visiting scholar at New York University, immediately met with skepticism from some who have faulted Wal-Mart for being stingy toward its workforce.

It's surprising because this guy seems to feel that Wal-Mart's low-wage, low-benefit business model is good for America. That's just flat-out wrong," the executive director of Wal-Mart Watch, David Nassar, said. "This guy helped to lend credibility to the Wal-Mart business model. That was disappointing then and it's disappointing now given this position," said Mr. Nassar, whose group is backed by a board that includes the president of the Service Employees International Union, Andrew Stern. Mr. Nassar quickly added that he was "not critiquing the Obama campaign."
A New York-based labor organizer and writer, Jonathan Tasini, said he was puzzled by the selection of Mr. Furman. "It's legitimate to give you pause," Mr. Tasini, who ran an unsuccessful primary challenge to Senator Clinton in 2006, said. "There have been concerns raised about where Obama's economic policies will trend," the writer said.

Mr. Tasini noted that, while Mr. Obama spurned labor groups by voting for a free-trade agreement with Peru, his past suggests he would be an ally of labor. "It's hard to believe that during his community organizing work in the poorest neighborhoods of his own city he didn't have something sink into him about income inequality. There's no way to read anything he has put out there as anything but rejection for the Wal-Mart model," Mr. Tasini said...>

http://www.nysun.com/national/obama-taps-wal-mart-defender-as-director/79665/

------------------------------------

Obama's Economic Brain Trust Breaks With `Status Quo'
May 10, 2008
Bloomberg

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&refer=politics&sid=a7Zdp3HDltW4


--------------------------------------
Robert Rubin

Just days after the (Clinton) administration (including the Treasury Department) agrees to support the repeal (of Glass Steagell) Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, the former co-chairman of a major Wall Street investment bank, Goldman Sachs, raises eyebrows by accepting a top job at Citigroup as Weill's chief lieutenant. The previous year, Weill had called Secretary Rubin to give him advance notice of the upcoming merger announcement. When Weill told Rubin he had some important news, the secretary reportedly quipped, "You're buying the government?"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

--------------------------------------



Obama's Curious Economic Adviser

CHICAGO -- In his curriculum vitae, Austan Goolsbee lists as his "other interests" -- other than teaching at the University of Chicago -- two activities: triathlons and improv comedy. Evidently he is a masochist with a sense of humor, so he is suited to participate in presidential politics, which he is doing as an adviser to Barack Obama.

Before they met in person, Obama, running for the Senate in 2004, asked Goolsbee a perplexing question. Obama's opponent, Alan Keyes, an African- American imported from Maryland by Illinois' shambolic Republican Party, had been asked whether he believed in reparations for slavery. Keyes said perhaps America could do what Rome did -- exempt descendants of former slaves from taxes for two generations. Obama asked Goolsbee how much that might cost. Goolsbee's two answers were: Hard to say. And: Trillions.

Goolsbee graduated from Yale and earned his doctorate from MIT before coming to the University of Chicago's business school, which gave to public life a giant of conservatism, George Shultz. The university's economics department has been adorned by the likes of Milton Friedman, George Stigler and Gary Becker, each a Nobel laureate, each a conservative by virtue of his inclination to expect more utility from markets than from government interventions therein.

Is Goolsbee dismayed about widening income inequality? Yes, but with a nuanced understanding. The stagnation of middle- and working-class incomes, and the anxiety this has generated, is, he says, a most pressing problem, but policymakers must be mindful about trying to address its root cause, which Goolsbee says is "radically increased returns to skill."...>

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/10/obamas_curious_economic_advise.html

-----------------------------------------------



Obama Economic Adviser Says Reform Trade Policy, Diversify Energy Choices

http://www.cfr.org/publication/17103/obama_economic_adviser_says_reform_trade_policy_diversify_energy_choices.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Concern me, rubin and Volker in particular

for the same reason

Why I am hoping they are far more pragmatic than ideologues

If they are ideologues, then the IMF shock doctrine will come to a country near you

[girl gone mad]

45. I feel perfectly calm..

sitting here watching others panic and run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

We do not need to rush a bad bill through congress.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. You still think this is the three pager from Paulson?

[spag68]

5. Tin foil hatters

What you maybe don't understand is that when it is said that things are being run from the white house, it might be true. While almost no one believes that little georgie has the brains for it, his puppet masters do. If you do not believe that the Carlyle group, Exxon, Scaife-Mellon, Halliburton, and a host of other defense contractors and other shadow groups don't run the little creep in the white house, then you have some reading to do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. On this I will tell you that you are dead wrong

this proves the little theory of trickle down not to work

So tell me why would the Carlyle group prove to the world that trickle down, what they rely on, have to gain in proving this doesn't work?

As to readying... I have son.

[spag68]

12. response

I said nothing about trickle down, which has succeeded for them. This is their last chance to squeeze the blood from us. They have already taken their profits, do you think they care about proving anything? I am 66 and know how to spell reading son.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. They look down the road in terms of decades, not weeks

[spag68]

18. decades

Something we can agree on, however I hope you will agree that they have made enough money for now to sit back and wait for their next chance. We will need decades to get out of the mess they have put us in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. The problem is that it wasn't Carlyle controlling little Georgie

this is Reaganomics, pure and simple and it is failing for the same structural reasons it failed in 1929

This is the repeal of all the depression era regulations that kept the country from going into deep depressions (10% reduction or more in GNP)

Right now we are seeing a wave of re-regulation across Europe... that will cross the atlantic, and just like 1929, you and I MAY see prosecutions, not fast, not soon enough, but we may see them.

Now the Iraq war, yes, that was the MIC all the way... but this... is not... and it looks to me that George has actually suffered a breakdown

His comment yesterday, the MSM said noting... he needed to see the president... read that again... since he IS the president, thanks to the USSC

[some guy]

36. So let's talk about reregulation.

Why wasn't anything written about reregulation of business trumpeted as a reason to vote in favor of the bill which failed Monday?

If Congress will put forward a bill that actually addresses the problem - unregulated schemes to invent money out of nothing - that's a bill I'd be in favor of. Until that happens, I will continue to oppose, because bailing out a sinking boat without trying to fix the hole the water is pouring in through, is only an option if the hole is smaller than the bailing bucket. In this case, I thhink the hole is much larger than the bailing bucket, so is ineffective and wrong-headed.


edited to add the word "of" in the first line.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. It was in an early draft of the damn thing

but it was negotiated out (a mistake in my view)

I have been telling them to pull Glass Steegal from the freezer and re-enact them, for example

[some guy]

42. Generally

I like what you write, so I've been reading some of your posts on this. We seem to be in agrrement that reregulation needs to occur. But you seem to keep saying pass the bill, even if reregulation isn't part of it. For me, that's a deal breaker. Reregulation needs to be part of the bill, and Congress needs to speak loud and clear that effective reregulation is going to happen.

Otherwise, I will continue to be opposed to any bill, (pretty much) regardless of what other good stuff it may have.

The collapsing of the empire is real, but this crisis, at this time, with this urgency is manufactured. I'm more in favor of deliberate, thoughtful legislation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. We don't have to agree on all, or it would get boring FAST

:-)

And I wish it had the regulation, I have been pushing for it, every day of the week

Lost more sleep readying these things....

And if I were them... after lucy football, they should go there, FULLY

But they won't

In this case, politics trumps all

So what I recommend is keep calling and emailing.. the next congress will be forced, by circumstance, to go there

[RainDog]

6. Oh, and David Cay Johnson, via tpm, says we are NOT hearing about no credit

for small biz and credit unions. he's far more qualified than you or I, but his remark, too doesn't fit your unified scenario of how DUers who doubt the wisdom of the Paulson II bailout (little changed that it was) are responsible for a world-wide depression.

incredible, really.

can you get more ignorant than that?

because, as you've also noted, you've predicted this financial crisis. and you know what? not only have you predicted it, but a very well regarded demographer predicted it in 2003. I've predicted it. And the current failure to bail out the trash loans does not change that scenario at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yep, he is right, that has been negotiated away

guess why? Do you need help connecting dots?

and as to predicting this crisis, been writing about this coming down the pike for YEARS now.

[Mojorabbit]

17. I have read in the past two days

that MacDonalds, Sonic, and the state of Mass were unable to get funding. I saw an interview with a small businesswoman who sells organic olive oil and products who for the first time ever was not able to get a loan to buy the jars, etc to prepare her inventory for the holiday season. I think it is slowly trickling down.

[depakid]

23. How about the State of Massachusetts being denied credit

would that convince you of the seriousness and urgency of the situation?

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/09/30/unknown_terrain_for_economy/

[girl gone mad]

31. The credit crunch is real, but the bailout in no way guarantees..

that Mass. will get credit.

If you want Mass to get credit, cut out the middle man and give it to them. Don't throw more money after bad in hopes that it will trickle down.

[depakid]

34. Huh?

:shrug:

[mhatrw]

47. That's exactly how I feel about the bailout plan.

Explain to us all how the magic Hank Paulson will buy his way out of the credit crisis by purchasing his Wall Street buddies' bad investments at inflated prices with $700 billion of taxpayer money.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Ok will sound trite, read the bill

going through that section right now... and you could not be more off...

I know, nobody has bothered to 'splain this in plain english

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Unlikely readying anything will change their mind

and as things DO GET WORST, as they surely will, they will use that as evidence not realizing that things will get even worst with nothing done.

[RainDog]

65. the smugness of you two is really incredible

and is totally unearned.

I took you off ignore to reply with the link above, but back you go.

things are going to get worse EITHER WAY. if you want to pretend otherwise, go right ahead. I have paid attention to the economic mess that has been coming around and I have put myself in a position in which I am not so vulnerable to the predations of Paulson, et al.

I cannot believe it does not bother any of you that Paulson has a huge conflict of interest in this situation, already bungled the FF's situation, tried to force this through like the patriot act, and is now using this situation as a pork fest.

The problem is that we do not have a majority in our representation that will do what is really good for the economy. This crisis did not start last week. If the republicans cannot understand that their econ philosophy has failed, then we will continue to see things get worse and worse and worse.

That's the problem of the republicans, not anyone who questions the wisdom of this bail out or who questions all liquidity based upon the machinations of a powerful few.

Surely you're also aware that the U.S/Pinochet tried to destroy Allende's govt. by a capital freeze too, right? They manipulated credit to force their way onto everyone else. When I hear that credit unions see this as an opportunity to move into more commercial lending, I really have to doubt that the entire financial system is in total peril.

Again, if it is, let the govt choose actions that directly benefit those who need it most, not the motherfuckers who created this whole ponzi scheme.

[mhatrw]

48. That's exactly how I feel about the bailout plan.

Explain to us all how the magic Hank Paulson will buy his way out of the credit crisis by purchasing his Wall Street buddies' bad investments at inflated prices with $700 billion of taxpayer money.

[RainDog]

64. small banks (and credit unions) verify Johnston's statement

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4145029&mesg_id=4145029

smaller banks and credit unions have had to operate under more traditional restraints, which has made them more stable, even if they have lost money in the mess... they're not going to fold.

as to the city credit issue - BIG BANKS do not want to lend to one another. that is the source of this credit mess. I happen to also think it's a form of extortion to pressure Congress to get what they want.

as for the person below who needs olive oil jars, I would change banks. Better yet, I would do biz with a credit union because they are sooo much better off now because of their fiscal responsibility.

I am not irrational, as some who have been running around screaming on this board claim about anyone who does not buy into the panic. I am saying that there are severe financial problems. But these problems have been in the works for years and, again, these problems are attached to those who created them, first and foremost, and the current bail out provisions, either Senate or House, are simply wrong and will create more of a problem than they solve.

As I noted on another thread, I thought, with the likelihood of Obama's election, the dollar would stablize... would not continue to fall. However, with this bail out, I think this is no longer true. The bail out will create an even weaker dollar. Will effect our bond ratings -and other nations' willingness to buy our debt.

imo, the truth of this moment is that the chickens have come home to roost. The U.S. is and will be paying for buying into reaganomics for many years. We are looking at a decline as a national power due to this current situation which, again, will be made worse by helping the ones who created it.

the gov. could back up sba loans as a temp. measure to reassure banks to extend loans to small bizzes, if needed. no bail out need be involved in that.

[stillcool]

11. So why can't they write a good bill..

that addresses the problem, protects the American people, without giving the Secretary of the Treasury expansive powers? Is it really that hard to do?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. If you read the bill you'd notice that they did

the oversight was the standard oversight on ANY bill written by the US House and Senate

By the way, you are aware that they authorized close to 700B for DOD just this week. the Oversight on this bill was weaker actually than what they wanted to pass and I bet is right now being watered down... after all DOD does not want any congress critter looking over their shoulders over Black Projects

[stillcool]

21. I tried to read the bill..

got to page 13 and was over my head. I can only judge by other people's opinions who are more educated than I, and those run the gamut. If this is so necessary, which it seems most agree that something needs to be done, it would seem to me that there must be a way to achieve the goal, without such opposition to it, by those people who are far more knowledgeable than I. It makes no sense that there could be such demonstrative opposition by so many economists and progressives if this were a good bill that addressed the problem effectively.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Part of the problem is that the leaders have done a terrible

job of educating people as to the consequences of doing nothing, and just saying we are facing a 1929 kind of a situation is not enough, since Americans have no clue of what happened back then, or what led to that

Now in my view... after the House Republicans played Lucy football twice, they should build a full depression era new deal legislation with far more bottom up elements to it... than even the limited ones this had

The only reason why I can read this is a college course in international law... some of those treaties make this one look like grade level writing

Yes, my head hurt after a couple of those....



Now what bugs me is that members of congress didn't read it... it was obvious to me.. they way they were talking in their floor speeches and that goes for both parties. If I had the time... and drive... this is just the most important piece of legislation in modern US history ... they should have made the time

[stillcool]

37. I couldn't agree with you more..

as far as educating the public. I have never felt so clueless about what is going on. The big problem is that no one in the government or the media can be believed anymore, which is why I attempted to read the bill. I realized that even if I understood the language, I have no idea what the problem is, so how could I know if the bill was a solution?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Point and the blogosphere has not helped either

it does not matter where you go on the web... yes I have even gone to Free Republic so you don't have to... and tuned in to right wing radio... (it has some comical elements to it), and the lack of even the most basic information of how the economy works is astounding, and that goes for them, us... left wing radio, right wing radio... it is actually astounding.

It does not matter where

And that has been incredibly frustrating to me

Now in reality the other problem is that on top of tin hats, we have had pretty hard core ideological thinking

For example, if you go to FR... the solution is of course less regulation and lower taxes... hey the baby is drowning, lower taxes

Go to the "left" blogosphere, it is we need a new deal... then I ask... exactly what parts? The new deal... ok... so even that has been mythologized

Or the ever so popular on both sides... don't pass this because it is a give away to Wall Street (which I fear it is quickly becoming that) I need to go see if they have posted the latest bill and ahem read it... before I call my Senators tomorrow

No wonder you are confused, as well as most people

And it is up.. nice of them to post an executive summary...

[mhatrw]

49. Bullshit. Paulson can do whatever he damn well pleases with the 700 billion.

What is the mechanism for the so-called oversight to stop him?

He can pay anyone for crappy assets up to their purchase price.

He can get the 700 billion whenever he wants.

He can demand little or no equity in return for these favors as he pleases.

The investment firms taking the money can pay their CEOs whatever they want.

Most importantly, nothing in the entire shaky system of a quadrillion unregulated derivatives is reformed even slightly.

Why are you in favor of such a shitty bill?

Here is just one much better plan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x44788

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. You have your head closed off

here is the bill

http://banking.senate.gov/public/_files/EESASummary1.pdf

READ IT

And I even gave you the much easier to read EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

[mhatrw]

58. You are trusting BushCo over Soros, Hussman, Galbraith & Krugman.

They all agree that http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x44788">this plan is far superior to Paulson's POS.

Now, explain to me how the "oversight" you think is in the bill is going to stop Paulson from paying whatever he pleases up to the original purchase price of the distressed assets?

What in the bill is going to stop him from requesting the entire 700 billion immediately if he feels there is an emergency?

What in the bill forces him to acquire equity in return for the purchase of distressed assets?

What in the bill stops investment firms taking from paying their CEOs tens of millions in salary?

What in the bill reforms the quadrillion unregulated derivatives is reformed even slightly?

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Actually I stand with Krugman on this bill

it is FAR FROM PERFECT... but I guess a depression is preferable to the cut my nose to spite my-face crowd

By the way GOOD LUCK with this given the current HOUSE REPUBLICANS

What is weird is that the far American Left and the FAR american Right sound the same these days.

[mhatrw]

66. What is normal is that the political establishment is pushing garbage. n/t

[wtmusic]

25. It's just a simple matter of "greasing up" the economy, is it

You can throw all the money at this you want, but the fact is most Americans are not creditworthy. Throw the money into a dumpster and you will get an equal rate of return.

[readmoreoften]

28. People who believe the Bushistas have no substantive power baffle me.

Clearly there is market manipulation and intervention. It can't be perfectly masterminded but it can be manipulated for sure. Last night Paulson injected a $630 billion bailout into the banks. And said so!

Clearly the entire problem is NOT market manipulation. The problem is deregulation and an economy built on air. But it is equally clear that all it takes is a pin to pop that bubble when you like if you control the US FED.

Fuck it. I'm for the bailout now just to shut everyone up. If the bailout doesn't pass than yappers are going to blame the no bailout folks when the shit hits the fan. Of course, when the shit hits the fan anyway after the bailout and we're on the hook for eternity, those who are for the bailout will probably still blame those who aren't.

Tinfoil hat? How about magical thinking? That's all it is.

I'd love for a REAL FDR-like solution to be passed in the wake of this. It won't. If it were a real crisis--meaning if the Bushistas really thought they had nothing to gain--they'd be on board too to save their own asses. They're not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. They have been injecting credit that way for two years

now... you just noticed? It is in the trillions by the way. Many of us joke that it is the Plunge Protection Team, a real organization established after the 1987 event

And magical thinking, you are right. it applies... look in the mirror.

And the closets you were going to get to an FDR solution RIGHT NOW was shot down... what you will get instead is a Hoover, 1931 bill. For the record, that one DID NOT WORK.

I hope you are happy

We all knew that this wasn't the perfect bill... those of us who BOTHERED readying it... but also that MORE WORK had to be done

This is just going to make things much harder...

[readmoreoften]

54. Oh please. I'm not so powerful that my little online opinion moves the US economy.

And neither or you.

The bill wasn't perfect? The bill gives carte blanche to Paulson with no congressional oversight. The reality is that they're going to do what they want regardless. And, yes, just like they always have. And, yes, I already knew that. And, yes, I know what the Plunge Protection Team is.

All you're doing is coming on DU and shitting all over people with your rage. Stop condescending to everyone as if they've never read a book or solved a math equation because they disagree with you. Stop accusing people on DU of 'ruining' the economy by 'ruining' the bailout and take your rage where it belongs.

You don't advocate ANYTHING. You know damn well the Democrats have no power. You know damn well the Repubicans do whatever they want. You know damn well the elections are rigged. But the idea of collective protest or advocating any sort of practical resistance makes you start hollering "UTOPIANS! YOU WANT A GLORIOUS REVOLUTION!"

Instead of yelling at people, why don't you give a clear outline of what you think needs to be done to get rid of the Bushistas. Not "stand up against election fraud" or "stop deregulation" but how precisely to get the fascists to give up the power they've quite obviously stolen for quite some time.

Regale us with your strategies. Me invite.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. I have given outlines

and chiefly I HAVE SENT faxes to proper committees

And TALKED to people involved in the process

THAT is my role as a citizen

As to anger... back at you... and there is plenty of tin foil hattery going on as well as magical thinking... and truly a shocking lack of understanding of how the economy works and how the process works

[billyoc]

41. What's the frequency, Kenneth?

No sale. I'm for the DeFazio/Kaptur bill. This one is a POS.

[mhatrw]

46. Yes, businesses need credit. Yes, Houston, we have a big problem.

But Paulson's bailout bill is still a piece of shit.