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Kucinich on the bailout: "This plan is immoral, this plan is a disgrace!"

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:43 PM
Original message
Kucinich on the bailout: "This plan is immoral, this plan is a disgrace!"
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 08:56 PM by RiverStone
...said Dennis on Rachel Maddow tonight.

I thought Dennis was making tons of sense when he talked about the bailout plan being nothing more than helping the few at the expense of the many. Quoting Dennis, he said the plan as it stands would cost "every man, woman, and child in the United States $6,900"

I am very enthusiastically working and voting for Barack Obama, yet I share Dennis's view and disappointment in both Obama and McBush's support of the bailout.

Rachel made reference during the Kucinich interview to a plan by Congressman Peter DeFazio of Oregon; this is a plan Dennis Kucinich supports and he notes it would provide that --- Wall Street bails out Wall Street!

See it here:

http://www.blueoregon.com/2008/09/defazio-leads-p.html

I know it's tough going against Obama on this, but I can't fathom why any true progressive would support it as is? On the contrary, check out DeFazio's (progressive) plan. With all due respect, why would anybody here on DU support the McBush bailout plan as written?

The DeFazio plan seem much more in-line with the values and progressive ideals we are so passionate about on DU. :think:




On edit: Added this question --- With all due respect, why would anybody here on DU support the McBush bailout plan as written?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. that's why populist and progressive Democrats oppose the bill
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. So should a vast majority of DUers oppose it as well? Do we?
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 08:50 PM by RiverStone
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I think everyone has to do whatever they feel is appropriate.
My focus is Obama winning, and while I do not agree with him on the necessity of this bailout, if and when it passes, I'll get behind him on it. Until after the election.

I am opposed to the bailout for many reasons, mainly I think it will not work. However, my primary objection to it has been that I think it is politically dangerous, lacking widespread public support.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. I oppose the rush..the orange alert..the sky is falling so hurry up and give us what we want...
I distrust the initial proposal presented by Paulson..which was so ridiculous that a compromise of any sort seemed to be ok...
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. exactly. How many times must we be burned by these rush jobs
before people wake up? Patriot Act, Iraq War, 2000 and 2004 election counts...AND the bailout?
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Remember, the Pukes have the routine down on using fear to manipulate the truth...
Edited on Wed Oct-01-08 10:42 AM by RiverStone
I'd love to see a populist uprising which was apolitical. In this very rare instance, I find myself in agreement with the rethugs who said NO. Not the reasons they said no per se, but with the vote. It will be interesting to see how the NO voting Dems respond to the bailout plan being tweaked to aid the righties which is happening as we speak.



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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. I have been against this bailout since I read the Paulson bill the day it came out
Edited on Wed Oct-01-08 11:02 AM by eowyn_of_rohan
I don't trust any bill the thugs have a hand in. The language is always so vague that nothing can be enforced against them, and so that we get screwed. Though there were both Thugs and Dems who voted against the bill, it was for very different reasons, I believe, despite what the Thugs said in front of the microphones last week, how they were voting against it to protect the "little people" on "Main Street": Thugs voted it down because there wasn't enough in the bill for themselves and their "friends", Dems voted it down for the exact reverse. That is my current theory anyway
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. his statement about US loaning banks billions
so they could loan us money. I'm thinkin we really should just cut out that nansy middleman.
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TxBlue Donating Member (472 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kick
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. He was right. It is immoral.
Kucinich made quite a few good points, and I had to agree with all of them. He was in line with Obama about the 'bottom up' theory, but that's about it.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. this is what also stinks about this whole scenario
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/22/paulson-goldman-bailout/

Paulson was the CEO of Goldman Sachs before he took this current job. Lehman Bros. was a big democratic-candidate supporting firm. Only Lehman bros has been allowed to fail. ONLY THE "DEMOCRATIC" money has been "punished" for this entire fiasco.

Six months ago Paulson was saying all is great, yet admitted that for months now he had been cooking up this bail out scheme.

Pelosi said BushCo did, with this bill, the same thing they did with the Patriot Act - tried to push it through w/o even letting Congress read the entire document. The bill STILL gives Paulson too much power with too little oversite.

and yet, to think this makes the "bail out" more than a little suspicious means you're irrational or that you hate people with pensions or that you are only interested in destruction.

David Cay Johnston has asked - where are the stories about the lack of liquidity in credit unions and the problems for small businesses all over the news? The reason they're not being reported is because they are not widespread.

The "liquidity crisis" is also manufactured as banks refuse to lend to one another to force this bail out - and because they know the other is likely lying about solvency as much as they are. At least, that's all I've heard about the current liquidity issue - it's between big banks.

This is the October Surprise, surprise surprise. Loot the treasury, rile up the base and steal Ohio if possible.


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distonworker Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ralph Nader asked me to pass this on
Paulson Bailout Plan a Historic Swindle
William Greider
September 19, 2008

Financial-market wise guys, who had been seized with fear, are suddenly drunk with hope. They are rallying explosively because they think they have successfully stampeded Washington into accepting the Wall Street Journal solution to the crisis: dump it all on the taxpayers. That is the meaning of the massive bailout Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has shopped around Congress. It would relieve the major banks and investment firms of their mountainous rotten assets and make the public swallow their losses--many hundreds of billions, maybe much more. What's not to like if you are a financial titan threatened with extinction?

If Wall Street gets away with this, it will represent an historic swindle of the American public--all sugar for the villains, lasting pain and damage for the victims. My advice to Washington politicians: Stop, take a deep breath and examine what you are being told to do by so-called "responsible opinion." If this deal succeeds, I predict it will become a transforming event in American politics--exposing the deep deformities in our democracy and launching a tidal wave of righteous anger and popular rebellion. As I have been saying for several months, this crisis has the potential to bring down one or both political parties, take your choice.

Christopher Whalen of Institutional Risk Analytics, a brave conservative critic, put it plainly: "The joyous reception from Congressional Democrats to Paulson's latest massive bailout proposal smells an awful lot like yet another corporatist lovefest between Washington's one-party government and the Sell Side investment banks."

A kindred critic, Josh Rosner of Graham Fisher in New York, defined the sponsors of this stampede to action: "Let us be clear, it is not citizen groups, private investors, equity investors or institutional investors broadly who are calling for this government purchase fund. It is almost exclusively being lobbied for by precisely those institutions that believed they were 'smarter than the rest of us,' institutions who need to get those assets off their balance sheet at an inflated value lest they be at risk of large losses or worse."

Let me be clear. The scandal is not that government is acting. The scandal is that government is not acting forcefully enough--using its ultimate emergency powers to take full control of the financial system and impose order on banks, firms and markets. Stop the music, so to speak, instead of allowing individual financiers and traders to take opportunistic moves to save themselves at the expense of the system. The step-by-step rescues that the Federal Reserve and Treasury have executed to date have failed utterly to reverse the flight of investors and banks worldwide from lending or buying in doubtful times. There is no obvious reason to assume this bailout proposal will change their minds, though it will certainly feel good to the financial houses that get to dump their bad paper on the government.

A serious intervention in which Washington takes charge would, first, require a new central authority to supervise the financial institutions and compel them to support the government's actions to stabilize the system. Government can apply killer leverage to the financial players: accept our objectives and follow our instructions or you are left on your own--cut off from government lending spigots and ineligible for any direct assistance. If they decline to cooperate, the money guys are stuck with their own mess. If they resist the government's orders to keep lending to the real economy of producers and consumers, banks and brokers will be effectively isolated, therefore doomed.

Only with these conditions, and some others, should the federal government be willing to take ownership--temporarily--of the rotten financial assets that are dragging down funds, banks and brokerages. Paulson and the Federal Reserve are trying to replay the bailout approach used in the 1980s for the savings and loan crisis, but this situation is utterly different. The failed S&Ls held real assets--property, houses, shopping centers--that could be readily resold by the Resolution Trust Corporation at bargain prices. This crisis involves ethereal financial instruments of unknowable value--not just the notorious mortgage securities but various derivative contracts and other esoteric deals that may be virtually worthless.

Despite what the pols in Washington think, the RTC bailout was also a Wall Street scandal. Many of the financial firms that had financed the S&L industry's reckless lending got to buy back the same properties for pennies from the RTC--profiting on the upside, then again on the downside. Guess who picked up the tab? I suspect Wall Street is envisioning a similar bonanza--the chance to harvest new profit from their own fraud and criminal irresponsibility.

If government acts responsibly, it will impose some other conditions on any broad rescue for the bankers. First, take due bills from any financial firms that get to hand off their spoiled assets, that is, a hard contract that repays government from any future profits once the crisis is over. Second, when the politicians get around to reforming financial regulations and dismantling the gimmicks and "too big to fail" institutions, Wall Street firms must be prohibited from exercising their usual manipulations of the political system. Call off their lobbyists, bar them from the bribery disguised as campaign contributions. Any contact or conversations between the assisted bankers and financial houses with government agencies or elected politicians must be promptly reported to the public, just as regulated industries are required to do when they call on government regulars.

More important, if the taxpayers are compelled to refinance the villains in this drama, then Americans at large are entitled to equivalent treatment in their crisis. That means the suspension of home foreclosures and personal bankruptcies for debt-soaked families during the duration of this crisis. The debtors will not escape injury and loss--their situation is too dire--but they deserve equal protection from government, the chance to work out things gradually over some years on reasonable terms.

The government, meanwhile, may have to create another emergency agency, something like the New Deal, that lends directly to the real economy--businesses, solvent banks, buyers and sellers in consumer markets. We don't know how much damage has been done to economic growth or how long the cold spell will last, but I don't trust the bankers in the meantime to provide investment capital and credit. If necessary, Washington has to fill that role, too.

Finally, the crisis is global, obviously, and requires concerted global action. Robert A. Johnson, a veteran of global finance now working with the Campaign for America's Future, suggests that our global trading partners may recognize the need for self-interested cooperation and can negotiate temporary--maybe permanent--reforms to balance the trading system and keep it functioning, while leading nations work to put the global financial system back in business.

The agenda is staggering. The United States is ill equipped to deal with it smartly, not to mention wisely. We have a brain-dead lame duck in the White House. The two presidential candidates are trapped by events, trying to say something relevant without getting blamed for the disaster. The people should make themselves heard in Washington, even if only to share their outrage.

About William Greider
National affairs correspondent William Greider has been a political journalist for more than thirty-five years. A former Rolling Stone and Washington Post editor, he is the author of the national bestsellers One World, Ready or Not, Secrets of the Temple, Who Will Tell The People, The Soul of Capitalism (Simon & Schuster) and--due out in February from Rodale--Come Home, America.

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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. I have the utmost respect for Kucinich,
and in principle I agree with all he said. The trouble is, his plan is all about the long term. It does nothing to address the immediate crisis. If we don't restore liquidity, like yesterday, there isn't going to be any economy to save. This is why Obama and others reluctantly supported the revised Paulson plan. How many trillion dollar hits can the economy take while congressmen have philosphical debates? Fix the immediate problem, and then look to correcting the underlying issues.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Your assuming the sky is falling
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 09:15 PM by RiverStone
Believe me Beregond2, I am no where near an economist. I'll only suggest what if your fears (based on a need to restore immediate liquidity) is based on false and misleading scare tactics by the administration?

Could that be possible? :shrug:

I'm not saying it's true (or not) - I don't know; I'm simply suggesting that Dennis is saying we can address this soon, but not in a mad crazy rush. Shrub want us to do this in a mad, crazy, rushed way. WHY?

Something to think about....


peace~
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. The sky is falling
I've known this for over a year (though I didn't recognize it in the beginning - I just assumed it was bad management. Now I've seen it's industry-wide and no company has been spared) and I may have been one of the anti-bailout DUers if I wasn't in the teeth of what's happening and what's going to hit every one else... and also, the forum I and Bi-Baby attended on this (by commie pinko economists) really put it in terms I could understand; and now I understand that this is a really serious crisis (more so beyond my own employment) and I don't think most people truly understand how this will affect them.

My industry is the first one to feel the down turns but we're the first ones to escape from them. I've said this many a time recently because watching this unfold from my angle is a real eye opener and also gives me hope that I could survive this if it's not too long lasting as I've survived every layoff up until now.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Why long term? de Fazio suggests a way to assure Wall Street pays for the bailout.
That's all. The bailout still is needed. It's just that the American people don't get stuck with the tab. Also, all the other aspects of the plan sound good too. It's well thought-out and fits the needs of the time. If they can get the rest of the Dems on board, it could take off.
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. That is because he doesn't see this as a crisis, and that the problem
cannot be fixed with a quickie BAILOUT.

The only way to fix the problem is a long term solution.

The BAILOUT didn't work in the 30's and it won't work NOW.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. Addressing the "long term" is what markets need. Why? CONFIDENCE.
Edited on Wed Oct-01-08 11:08 AM by TahitiNut
All too often, folks treat this faux 'crisis' as though it's "scientific" and "objective." Horse shit. It's about lemmings, Greater Fools, and Chicken Littles. About 95% of the 'analysis' focuses on what "they" will do ... not what makes tangible sense based on some accounting fundamentals ... but fear and loathing on Wall Street.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Then why not propose a better, DECENT, plan for the short term?
The idea that THIS bailout is the ONLY way to address immediate needs is foolish. This one is bad, so give us something worthy for both short and long-term solutions.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. dennis gave an impressive argument
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WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. re: Wall Street bails out Wall Street
do you recall the specifics of this part of the plan? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it has to do with a transaction tax that will raise $100B/yr and deferred derivatives.

Thanks
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yes, there was a charge or transaction fee - can't recall how much
But it gets to the heart or the plan - that Wall Street pays for (with a small fee for each transaction) it's own bail out. The taxpayers don't - but Wall Street does.
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WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I can't wait to see something like this in writing...
...I'm not clear as to how the deferred dirivatives work (or if that's even what he said, I hate to put words in his mouth because he was spot on!) :)
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WA98296 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
20. Can you imagine a country with Kucinich as President
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MadrasT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. It's a beautiful dream, isn't it?
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. We'd have government of, by and for the people instead of
the government of, by and for corporations that we have now.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
21. K & R - He's absolutely right!
It's immoral and it isn't a bottom-up bailout. That's why the vast majority of Americans were against it.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. I don't support the bailout.
I don't respect Obama's "aye." Of course, he has cast numerous votes I feel the same about during his short time in the Senate.

I am pleased to see that a rep from my state, DeFazio, is standing up. I'm not surprised in the least to hear that DK backs him.

Kudos to DeFazio, Kucinich, and every other Democrat that stands firm against this bailout.

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