One thing about all the bailout discussions here on DU,

[scarletwoman]

it's really revealed who is on whose side in the Class War.

Shout out to all the true leftists here! :toast:

sw

[Runcible Spoon]

1. kick, R, and hugs

I told someone to fall off a glacier today...particularly nasty thread whoops lol

[scarletwoman]

2. Thanks!

"Fall off a glacier" -- that's one I haven't heard before! :7

sw

[Runcible Spoon]

13. well he was threatening to come to Patagonia, in Argentina and well I live here...

and the less greedy Gordon Gecko acolytes that are xxxxtreme sporting around and wasting many resources (fuel to get them to remote areas and the rescue services needed to rescue their dumb asses and ferry them back down to their 5 star hotels when they get all cold and lost hahahaha) to exploit one of the last remaining pristine areas of the world, the better :mad:

I'm just pissed because of all the British and American companies I see exploiting talented workers here, especially in tech fields; pretty soon Buenos Aires will be a lot like Bangalore :scared: Fortunately, the govt here is hyper protectionist. Unfortunately, labor is highly unregulated and there is lots of corruption. We will see what goes down...

[soulcore]

3. Hell yeah. Just say NO!...

...to corporate welfare.

Let the free market correct itself, instead of sacrificing the American Taxpayer at the alter of socialized losses for the poor, and privatized gains for the wealthy.

[JeffR]

4. I'm not quite sure the issue breaks that way, sw.

I think a lot of people are torn on this. Hell, a lot of Republicans are torn on this.

I tend to think it's a big con, but part of my reptile brain says, "Yes, but..." I don't believe what we're being told, but I know full well I don't understand it enough to consider myself adequately informed yet.

[scarletwoman]

7. It's not the "torn" people I'm talking about, it's the ones who declare they are "RIGHT",

and those of us saying, "Oh HELL no!" are wrong.

sw

[JeffR]

12. Fair enough. I've read a number of posts like that today.

And they're pretty unconvincing. I'm not quite ready to say "hell no" though I'm getting there. Nothing apparently liked by the White House or -sadly - the Congressional Democratic leadership sits well with me by instinct, but I'm going to keep reading about this before venturing a opinion.

[scarletwoman]

15. Well, in my opinion -- of course -- you ought to go with your instinct.

Definitely, people taking their time to study it is fine.

THEN they can say, "Oh HELL no!" :D

sw

[JeffR]

18. I always end up at "Oh HELL no!" sooner or later.

I guess if my brain worked better or I had more refined time management skills, I'd start there. It would save time and a lot of headaches...

[scarletwoman]

21. LOL!

Your brain works just fine. If it's gotta meander, then it's gotta meander.

:loveya:

[tavalon]

39. Exactly!

The way they are trying to ram it through is a big red flag for me, but I know something must be done, I just don't know what needs to be done and I have grave doubts that the politicians do either.

[Two Americas]

41. we know what to do

We did it in the 30's.

You protect the little guy from the big guy, not the other way around. Details and plans can be worked out, but it isn't about details and plans.

[bread_and_roses]

60. Exactly! Spot on! Right on! And every other affirmative I can think of.

It does always come down to "Which Side Are You On."

edited to say that's the best, most concise summation I've seen of the real issues in this matter.

[magellan]

85. That's precisely why I'm against this bailout

Well, besides my total mistrust of anything this administration hits the panic button over.

We aren't implementing the kind of oversight and reforms we did in the 30s. And there's a big problem sitting out there that's being completely ignored: trillions in default swaps.

But I guess we'll just keep throwing money at it....

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

[girl gone mad]

5. holler back.

:P

[scarletwoman]

8. WOOT!

:hi:

sw

[ShortnFiery]

6. Here! Damn the Corporate Fat-Cats stealing our tax dollars to invest overseas. NO! eom

[pnwmom]

9. Except that the "true leftists" seem to be taking the same position

as the hard right wing of the Republican party.

Which makes all these labels very confusing.

[ShortnFiery]

10. How about "the wealthy" against "every one else" in AMERICA? eom

[scarletwoman]

14. The Class War makes it very simple.

You're either on the side of the Owner Class or on the side of the People.

While "left" is much abused term, in the context of DU I see the "lefties" as the ones who clearly understand the Class War and which side they are fighting for.

sw

[pnwmom]

35. So which side is Obama on? n/t

[SidDithers]

78. A question that has conveniently gone unanswered...nt

Sid

[scarletwoman]

99. The question went unanswered because I had already logged off by the time it was asked.

And I had to get up and go to work all day. This was my first opportunity to respond. If you wish to read my response it is post #98 below.

sw

[Marie26]

79. Touche. nt

[scarletwoman]

98. Excuse me for not replying sooner, but your post came in at 2:53 a.m. in my time zone,

and I had already logged off around 2:30 a.m. because I had to go to bed.

Obama will be obliged to work for the Owners, just as any U.S. president must, of necessity. It's how the System is set up, and he has never been about seriously challenging the status quo -- just look at his foreign policy positions, he has absolutely no intention of challenging the paradigm of American Imperialism -- he just wants to make it work better.

Obviously, any person in the position of "Leader of the Free World", must, by definition, be considered a member of the Ruling Class.

However, I do believe that in regard to domestic issues he will act in the time-honored tradition of Noblesse Oblige. I do not disparage that. The Ruling Class throughout history, has now and again thrown up genuinely good-hearted people who sincerely strive to improve the lot of the peasants, like FDR, for example.

Obama is NOT a populist, or even necessarily a progressive, but he's a decent man who will probably do some good things that will mitigate some of the suffering of the American masses, even as he ensures that the Empire will continue.

I'm a realist, I'll settle for mitigation -- no problem. Especially if it gives the People some breathing room to organize themselves to challenge the System more effectively. Real change HAS to come from the bottom up, not the top down.

sw

[iconicgnom]

114. Hey! That was very well said.

[scarletwoman]

118. Hey, back atcha! Thank you!

[LBJDemocrat]

117. Thank you. You rock. nt

[scarletwoman]

119. Gosh, thanks! I roll, too!

:D

[Truth2Tell]

105. He's on the "do whatever you think you gotta do to get elected" side.

And that's fine.

[RainDog]

121. the rich, of course

I've never thought otherwise. but he's also for more oversight, which makes him a thousand times better than any republican. in the U.S., we don't really have a choice between left and right. we have a choice between right, far right and conservative democrat.

...at this time. that can and will change.

[ContinentalOp]

24. Because the Republicans are smart enough to know this is an ELECTION DECIDING ISSUE!

Some Republicans, possibly including McCain are going to vote against the bill.

- If it doesn't pass, and the economy tanks, they can say "look the Democratically controlled congress failed to act"

- If it passes and the economy tanks anyway they can say "see, the Democrats' bailout was unnecessary and unhelpful."

- If it doesn't pass and the economy does fine they can say they voted the right way and saved the taxpayers $700 billion.

- The best possible scenario for the supporters of this bill is that it passes and the economy greatly improves between now and November. That seems by all accounts to be highly unlikely. We may pass this bill but still face some serious economic issues which puts us back at outcome #2. And if McCain votes against the bill and it turns out to magically fix everything, McCain can still claim that it was a bad bill, that he supported a different version, that it was unnecessary, etc.

[scarletwoman]

28. All the Democrats have to do is say, "We heard you loud and clear, America!"

"With our constituents calling and emailing us 100:1 saying they did NOT want this bill, we had to bow to the will of the electorate."

See? Easy!

The electorate HATES this bill, they are PISSED OFF! If the Dems pass it anyway, those voters are going flock to any Repug opponent who voted against it.

sw

[pnwmom]

36. You're right that we seem to be totally boxed in. n/t

[slackmaster]

123. I think most people, myself included for sure, don't understand the problem or the bill very well

Unfortunately that includes a good chunk of Congress. My default position when I don't understand what a change will do is to say no, don't do it.

[scarletwoman]

131. I tend to think that "consider the source" is a reasonable measure of merit or lack thereof.

"My default position when I don't understand what a change will do is to say no, don't do it.

I think that's very prudent.

My biggest objection to the Paulson/Pelosi bailout bill was that we were being stampeded into it. It just smacked too much of WMD!!! MUSHROOM CLOUD!!!! FEAR FEAR FEAR!!!! to me.

The worst thing to do in such a situation is to act out of fear, imho. Fear short-circuits all rational thought.

This is a complicated mess, and it requires calm, rational thought in order to come up with a solution. Hysteria tends to lead to very bad decisions.

sw

(edited for paragraph spacing)

[liberalmuse]

11. And it IS a class war.

I had the attitude that the Bailout was a necessary evil until I started typing a post, and boy did the outrage and anger really start pouring out of my fingertips. Oh my god. I scared myself! I had to delete it from DU, but saved it on my 'puter. That rant will never be posted, because I'd likely get thrown in prison for trying to incite a revolution. So I'll just draw the line with my Che avatar. For now.

[Jamastiene]

16. Classism will be the death of the Democratic Party if

we don't get it in check. The Republicans march in lock step with each other. Democrats do not. That is why we need to respect each other in this big tent if we are going to pull together and get a chance to fix this shitting ass mess the Republicans have made.

[scarletwoman]

19. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The parties mean NOTHING.

There are only two categories that matter, the Owner class and the rest of us.

When Dems like Pelosi and Reid side with the Owner class, they are my enemies just as much any Owner Class Republican is.

There is no war but the Class War.

sw

[tazkcmo]

48. Yep

It's not about D or R but P(oor) W(ealthy). If ANY money goes to ANYBODY it should be the home owners and let it trickle up. Yes, some house flippers will get money. Yes, some folks who shouldn't have been approved for a loan will get money. But IMOH it's better than the feeding frenzy already taking place at the corporate trough.

[Dark]

175. You mean we're either with you or against you?

Wheere have I heard that before...

[spoony]

194. One name you seemed to forget.

Obama.

And piss of with that "parties mean nothing" garbage, there's an election in just a few weeks. If the Repubs win, I assure you you'll come to see that parties mean quite a bit.

[scarletwoman]

197. See my post #98 in this thread -- I addressed the Obama question already.

I hope you'll read it, because I don't think you've understood my frame of reference.

sw

[ContinentalOp]

26. Hell yeah it will be the death of our party. You just missed the fact that...

we didn't start the war and are barely even fighting back. But make no mistake, world political history is essentially a struggle between entrenched money and power on the one hand, and the people on the other.

Of course they march in lock step. They started the war, they have the strategy, the money, and the power. Meanwhile we refuse to fight back and some of us apparently haven't even noticed that we're under attack!

[TahitiNut]

17. No shit, luv.

:hi: Here's to the Bernie Sanders cohort. :toast:

[scarletwoman]

20. TN!

:hi:

[melody]

22. Ideology is the problem, not the solution

Ideology got us into this in the first place. We just have to do what works -- to hell with philosophy.

[scarletwoman]

23. It's not ideology. It's very simple. You are either on the side of the Owners, or you're on the

side of the people who the Owners are abusing and exploiting and ripping off.

sw

[melody]

25. That's your interpretation of reality

... guided by your ideology.

[scarletwoman]

31. It's the reality of how the world works. Entrenched money & power ALWAYS exploits those below them.

Do you have no grasp of history?

sw

[melody]

34. I have a minor in history

I also have a grasp of nuance, reality and grey areas.

Look, enjoy your illusions if you like. This is my last post to this thread.

[Runcible Spoon]

43. HA! The fact that you are throwing your rapidly devalued 2 cents into this thread...

and disagreeing with Scarlet is a fabulous indication that Scarlet is on the right track.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

101. That being the case, I have to wonder how you have managed not to notice all the examples throughout

history, in cultures the world over, of there being a wealthy class who oppresses the peasant class. Feudal Europe is an excellent example -- the serfs owned nothing, PLUS had to pay taxes and rents to the Lordly class who claimed ownership over all the lands they were able to control militarily.

I suppose if one simply accepts that this is the natural order of human society, it doesn't particularly stand out as undesirable. But rabble rouser that I am, I am wont to argue against the injustice of it.

sw

[Posteritatis]

104. LOL, a minor?

And you're oh-so-casually condensing the whole of civilization down to two types of people?

My, that's precious.

(ETA: Uh, crap, thought you were the other person who in fact was doing that. Mea culpa, leaving the original foot-in-mouth post for the "no grasp of history?" poster it was actually intended for, and as a reminder to myself to read more closely before responding.)

[scarletwoman]

111. Since I am the one for whom your reply was intended, I will gladly reply.

(I'm not the poster claiming a minor in history, just so we're clear.)

Anyway, I have to ask you: can you honestly look at the sweep of world history and culture and NOT notice that there's a pattern of heirarchical social organization that divides people into one class of the powerful and wealthy "rulers" and the underclasses who make up the "ruled"?

Really?

sw

[Posteritatis]

141. Well, yes. The world isn't black and white. (nt)

[scarletwoman]

143. Did I say "black and white"? I said "hierarchical social organization".

Are you denying that such a thing exists?

sw

(edited for grammar)

[Posteritatis]

166. Into two and only two classes? That's black and white. (nt)

[Two Americas]

191. so what?

We could never say anything then.

There are thousands of examples of "black and white" situations upon which politics, governments, legal systems, justice and social conditions depend.

This business of disappearing distinctions cripples politics. Cripples everything, actually, oncluding critical thinking which I think must be the goal when used in this context.

Hungry or not? Awake or asleep? Guilty or innocent? Marry a person or not? Buy something or don't buy it? Your vote is counted, or it is not? Your candidate is elected, or not? ...and on and on and on.

There could never be justice if we had to adhere to your absurd standard here.

[TahitiNut]

29. I tend to think of it as Predatory Capitalists vs. their human prey.

The problem with that is that the predators I've been around (sharks, coyotes, etc.) are nowhere nearly as insatiable and avaricious as folks who'd make more homeless people ... destroying someone's 'nest egg' for the sake of a commission.

[lonestarnot]

46. A commission or another merger, takedown, takeover.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4113004 New World Order.

[tavalon]

42. I'm realizing that I'm a socialist

Very, very, very left leaning, I am. To give you bonafides, in our multi-adult family, we are monetarily and philosophically socialist.

But, and this is important, this is way too nuanced a problem to be made black and white. Should the CEO's get a golden parachute? Fuck no! Should the people who caused this have no retribution or accountability? Fuck no. Should Wall Street be allowed to go belly up like a cockroach? Oops, not so black and white. Why not!? Because their stupid ass feelers are going to hit every single one of us. I don't have a dime in the stock market and I won't be able to afford food, gas or even a roof over my head and neither will you if our economy goes under and yes, those vipers on Wall Street have become entwined with our economy at every level and while they were quite content to keep every penny of their misbegotten money, they will, in fact share their misfortune with us whether we want it or not.

We have to do something. I don't actually know what that something is but I doubt it is this "bailout" (talk about framing the debate!) but I don't know. I do know that it isn't anywhere near black and white.

[lonestarnot]

45. You damn commie!

:evilgrin:

[Mojorabbit]

47. Excellent post. nt

[TBF]

102. tavalon, pls. check out the plans on Bernie Sanders' and Dennis Kucinich's

website. They are a good start to a compromise.

I never like the issues where you have to take sides, but in this case it's crystal clear. If George Bush is trying to ram through legislation for a $700B bailout just days after the House approved yet another $1T military spending bill, then you've got to stop and think about what is going on.

I am for ending the occupation in Iraq, ending the greed on Wall Street (and all other streets), and thinking about the people of this country for a change. Housing, Jobs, Health Care - that should be our mantra - not bail outs for billionaires.

[tama]

169. Not opposed to socialism

or even state "socialism", just reminding that if the state is bankrupt (morally, economically etc.) and cannot be trusted to provide for the basic needs, in that case (and otherwise) real independence is one idea. Independence meaning building self sufficient communities.

[anigbrowl]

126. That sounds pretty ideological to me.

I'm a pragmatist, myself.

[scarletwoman]

130. Okay, fine. My ideology is that people should not be exploited and ripped off.

I guess you got me to expose my true colors. Hooray for you!

sw

[anigbrowl]

134. I think your ideology is that all commerce is exploitation.

And I'm afraid I don't agree with that. Reading through this thread, nothing seems pure enough for you.

You know, I had the interesting experience of visiting Russia back in the 80s when it was still communist. And although I have a lot of sympathy for the ideas involved, and could even come up with a number of good things to point out about that way of doing things, the bottom line is that it really really sucked for most people. If you think your class war approach to things is going to bring about some sort of non-exploitative utopia, I think you're badly mistaken.

This is not an endorsement of how everything is in the USA right now, or the current administration, or of unfettered capitalism. I think a lot of things about this country urgently need changing, but I'll pass on the bloody revolution.

[scarletwoman]

138. Oh come on. First you project on me all kinds of things I've NEVER said, and then you excoriate me

for it.

Show me ANYWHERE in this thread where I've advocated for "bloody revolution". Show me ANYWHERE in this thread where I've said "all commerce is exploitation".

Seriously. Debate me honestly on the arguments I AM making. Anything else is just plain dishonorable and duplicitous. Aren't you better than that?

sw

[anigbrowl]

156. Nope. I'm pissed off with DU today

After posting some cautious and thoughtful threads on why I think the bailout is important, I've been told that I'm a country club fat cat who lives in a gated community. So forgive me if I just follow your division of human society into exploiters and exploitees to its logical conclusion.

[scarletwoman]

159. I'm so sorry. As you can see from this thread, no one EVER gives ME a hard time. (nt)

[Two Americas]

189. the haves don't need politics

"Pragmatist" means siding with the haves versus the have nots.

Can people not be honest about this?

Only those who are in fact siding with the wealthy and powerful can ignore politics and be "pragmatic." For the poor and working people, left wing politics is what is pragmatic. Dismissing the Left as "ideology" is entirely incompatible with and contradictory to any and all politics other than right wing politics.

You can't have it both ways.

[ContinentalOp]

27. Works for whom?

They are certainly successful at doing whatever works. I actually admire the right for that. We just need to learn how to do what works for us, regardless of philosophy or party dogma.

[melody]

33. Whatever works for everyone obviously ... for the system

Otherwise it doesn't meet the definition of "working".

[TBF]

181. Sometimes it's the system at fault and not the people. Just a thought.

[Two Americas]

44. unavoidable

It is not as though some have a world view and act on that and others do not.

The question in politics must always be "works for whom?"

Everyone wants things to work. Everyone has a world view.

There can be no politics if we leave power and economics out of the discussion.Leaving those, and "ideology" or world view out of the discussion is not something new and bright and shiny. It is as old as the hills. It supports entrenched inequality, whether you believe it does or not.

You know who doesn't need an ideology? Those who already have all of the wealth and power.

[Naturyl]

90. That philosophy is called pragmatism...

Just so you know.

Getting rid of ideology and philosophy is not only a misguided goal, it's impossible.

[loyalsister]

30. There are many problems with this

Class warfare breaks down many ways.
As "middle class" people begin to consider paying for this package, they begin to resent taxes more and more.
They resent people who get health care benefits from the government. Resent those who have food stamps, unemployment.

What they are actually discovering is that they are not, were not middle class. They're poor.
They're not overtaxed, their taxes are not inline with their wages which should have been increasing over the past several years.

And yet, while the CEOs have been taking their massive salaries, their wages have not kept up with taxes or cost of living.
Many people who consider themselves middle class are poor but don't know it or won't admit it.

This crisis may hit them and force them to admit it, but I have my doubts.

[slay]

32. Leftist

Wouldn't have it any other way. :smoke:

[cui bono]

37. Cheers!

:toast:

[Norrin Radd]

38. kr

[Two Americas]

40. I am here

Some seem to have read your post as a call to shout at all the true Leftists. lol

[scarletwoman]

94. Pardon me for being many hours late in replying but I had to log off at 2:30 a.m. and go to bed.

Today was a workday, and I get up at 5:30 -- wasn't easy to make it through the day on 3 hours of sleep. The heartbreak of DU addiction... :P

Some seem to have read your post as a call to shout at all the true Leftists. lol

Heh. It has been ever thus on DU, lots of so-called "liberals" here just plain HATE the lefties. But I'm still here, 7+ years along, happily popping up every once in awhile to arouse liberal ire. :D

:hi:
sw

[stray cat]

49. Define a true leftist. For unemployment and elimination of credit?

Skeptical of government integrity and honesty. Those fearful of losing their limited retirement spent years accumulating and unable to re-enter the workforce? People afraid of losing their job if the economy does tank. People living on welfare checks and think thats secure?

[scarletwoman]

107. "Define a true leftist." Gladly. A true leftist is for the empowerment of the masses to free

themselves from exploitation and oppression. I generally try to avoid cliches, but in this case, the old saw about the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is definitely the operative paradigm.

As a leftist, I want to change that paradigm. And I believe the ONLY way to change it is by organizing the masses to challenge it.

I'm not some reckless, simple-minded revolutionary who wants to just destroy everything in hopes of building some uptopia out of the ashes. I think in terms of evolution, not revolution.

There were enormous problems and downsides with the Paulson/Pelosi bill. I'm not against some kind of carefully considered intervention, but I'm damn sure going to speak out against something that tries to stampede everyone out of fear and comes from people who I KNOW are not on our side. When someone tells you "there is no choice!!!!", you damn well BETTER start looking around for other choices.

There have been many alternative plans offered over the past 10 days, all far more sensible than the Paulson/Pelosi plan, and all more beneficial to the taxpayers in both the short run and the long run.

We're in for hard times no matter what happens. There's no escape, because theives and rogues have been having their way for far too long. There's no way become un-robbed when the robbers have already made a clean getaway, and are being protected to boot.

We've been screwed, we've been scammed. I want to make to make sure we don't get scammed FURTHER -- and I sure as hell didn't see the Paulson/Pelosi bill as the way to do that. They are NOT on our side of the Class War.

sw

[BrklynLiberal]

163. ....

:thumbsup:

[Karenina]

50. K&R!

:toast::loveya::toast:

[scarletwoman]

140. Please accept my belated "thank you!"

I'm totally thrilled that you found my thread!

:hug: :loveya: :hug:
sw

[jonnyblitz]

51. no shit. many people have shown their TRUE colors.

"progressives" MY ASS. :puke:

[Moochy]

70. Green

as in cash. Plutocraticunderground has always been here, but these posters are failing with their sneering Dick Cheney-like scowls, telling those that oppose the bailout "You just don't understand."

[20score]

52. What bothered me the most were the people who basically said, "tough shit!"

to those losing their house. "But, hey, need to protect the market."

[PVnRT]

53. Right, liberals apparently support the opinions of Univ. of Chicago economists

Who knew that the disciples of Friedman would be the voices of the left?

Take your "true leftist" shit and blow it our your ass. People who want widespread suffering and misery just so they can crow about "being right" are not liberals.

[onenote]

55. spot on.

[scarletwoman]

120. Really? A post entirely based in fallacy is "spot on" to you? How unfortunate. (nt)

[live love laugh]

200. It really is isn't it--unfortunate. Why are people like that even here? nt

[Moochy]

72. "blow it out your ass"

Ahh There's the Convincing Cheney Scowl I was looking for!

[scarletwoman]

122. LOL. I mean, how can one mount a meaningful argument against THAT?

I have met my match and gone down in ignominious defeat!

:rofl:

sw

[moodforaday]

81. But will the bailout prevent

widespread suffering and misery? Do you trust Bush and Paulson enough to go there?

[Raineyb]

125. I damn sure don't

Nothing rammed through by the Bush Crime Family has ever come to good I don't know why anyone would think that ramming a bailout for Wall Street would be any different.

Now that this bailout has failed how about working on something that might actually do some good. I believe there's some regulation that needs to be reinstated. That stock transfer tax sounds pretty damn good too.

Regards

[scarletwoman]

116. Well, you got ONE thing right, at least. I am NOT a liberal, I'm a leftist.

You can see plenty of evidence of the difference between "liberal" and "leftist" right here in this thread.

I want to PROTECT the underclass from "widespread suffering and misery" to whatever extent it's possible -- what with "liberals" siding with the Owner Class and hysterically screaming that "WE HAVE NO CHOICE!!!!" as we all get stampeded over a cliff by the fearmongers.

Wake the fuck up. There have been LOTS of alternatives offered to the Paulson/Pelosi protect the Owners bill. Alternatives that would actually HELP the workers and the poor over the Owners.

We were being rushed into rash action by the same criminals who ran the con in the first place -- how could that possibly be a good thing?

There's not going to be any magic wand to wave away the coming pain -- the system has already been thoroughly corrupted and destroyed by the thieves that the Reagan/Norquist/Bushies/Free Marketeers have been enabling for 30 years. The best we can do is to mitigate the consequences for the masses.

The Paulson/Pelosi bill did NOT do that. We needed to buy time to push for something better, to organize and channel Main Street anger into a plan that that offers more protection for the taxpayers and for our Constitution.

There's nothing wrong with resisting being stampeded by liars and fearmongers into agreeing to something not in our best interests.

sw

[tama]

170. Told you so!

Hehe. :)

[earth mom]

54. This is CLASS WAR. And boils down to are you with the criminals or are you not?

To that I shout: HELL NO! :grr:

Here's to true leftists! :toast:

[GinaMaria]

56. Take Action: from Democrates.Com

Monday: Call to Stop Paulson's Plunder


(1) Call your Representatives and Senators at 800-473-6711 or 202-224-3121 and say No Bailout!

(2) Email them too and tell your friends:
http://democrats.com/stop-paulsons-plunder

After a week of high-drama negotiations, Congress and Hank Paulson issued Bailout version 1.1, which is just the original Paulson pig with a lot of lipstick.

Republicans say the deal will be profitable for taxpayers, but they are lying - just as they did about the invasion of Iraq producing lower gas prices. It's a lie because Paulson has full power to pay too much for the securities and he will because his real goal is a bailout of bank executives and shareholders with our money - a massive ($2,333 per person!) transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich.

Democrats say they got oversight, accountability, and limits on executive compensation but each of these provisions is so full of Republican-written loopholes that they are meaningless - just like all other restrictions imposed on the Bush Administration, from Iraq to wiretapping. And that's before Bush simply negates any restrictions he doesn't like with one of his unconstitutional (and hence impeachable) signing statements.

So our answer remains ABSOLUTELY NOT.

The House will vote on Monday and the Senate will vote on Wednesday.


So call your Senators and Representative right now to say "No $700 Billion Bailout for Wall Street" - dial the Capitol switchboard at 800-473-6711 or 202-224-3121 or dial direct using the instant phone lookup on the right side of http://usalone.com


And if you have not e mailed your Senators and Representative , please do it now:
http://www.democrats.com/stop-paulsons-plunder


Find more information and comment here:
http://www.democrats.com/still-no-bailout

Thanks for all you do!

[cali]

57. actually it demonstrates nothing of the sort. Your post certainly demonstrates how narrow and

bushian YOU are. And for the record, I'm not for the bailout. So get bent. I'm sick of self-rightious, dictatorial assholes- whatever ideological side they're on. I'm not on the same page with any of them.

[scarletwoman]

124. Ah, Cali! Your contempt and insults are balm to my soul.

Your ire is my delight.

Bless you,
sw

[tama]

171. You too?

Let's start a Cali-fanclub!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. Nancy must have swapped some of that dry powder for lipstick.

:toast:

[ShortnFiery]

59. Nancy is CORPORATE not LIBERAL.

[SmokingJacket]

61. I'm not sure it's that simple.

I'm a retail clerk making $9.50 an hour. I also have a small farm. I'm DEFINITELY not on the side of the rich. All my savings are in CDs because I'd rather take the small interest than trust my dough to Wall Street traders.

That said, I do believe that doing nothing will have severe consequences. I don't want the stock market to crash, because my parents are older and can't affort to lose their retirement. I don't want the owner of the business I work for to not be able to borrow money, not even for a week -- it will kill the business.

And THAT said, I have extreme doubts about the Bailout. :hi:

[scarletwoman]

145. The thing is, the Paulson/Pelosi bailout bill really sucked. There was no good reason to support it,

if a person just stopped panicking and thought about it.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, "consider the source" -- an ex-Wall Street exec and Bushie, and a corporate Democrat. Why would anyone think even for a moment that people like them were looking out for people like you and your parents? It defies logic.

So, I yelled and screamed and ranted that we needed to STOP that bill from going through. I know *something* needs to be done, but I also know that being stampeded into something that a bunch of liars and con-men are telling us we "HAVE" to do, because "WE HAVE NO CHOICE!!!!" is just bullshit. (WMD!!!! MUSHROOM CLOUD!!!!)

Now we've bought a little time for looking at more rational solutions. We still may end up being totally fucked by the con artists, but at least they didn't win THIS round.

Resisting the Paulson/Pelosi bailout is about taking back some power for the people.

sw

[bridgit]

62. Oh, I don't know, I've seen 'true leftists' post pics of their new BBQ grills...

they've placed in the backyards of homes they've owned for decades, divided many from within the comfort and security of 130 year old+ historical NE homes they're renovating/restoring while their so-called brotherhood/sisterhood experience a life steeped in student loans, high rents, gas, the whole nine to include being poked & pricked from the other side's notion of class warfare; Seen True Leftist Nobility swoop down like every other carrion from Truly On High to posit derision and anxiety in the minds of just plain small, little ole 'd' dems I suppose, etc, etc, etc; I think the shaping/forming of levels & strata between people encourage, nurture and ultimately constitute the class war itself. Know True Leftists, True as in you can't make that 'T' big enough True isolated by their own sense of geographic nobility simultaneously smart & less-so they will never stand in the middle of a field full of new spring leaves as I do cause they're mass transit doesn't go out that far oh well, it probably doesn't matter anyway...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReIEDHMu0Zw

[scarletwoman]

133. You are confusing leftists with liberals. Please don't do that. They are very different.

Liberals are generally comfortable with the Owner Class, they are the house negroes who identify with their masters and hold the field slaves in contempt.

Leftists are the ones who want to free the field slaves.

sw

[bridgit]

168. "true leftists", at such times I am specific about copy/paste; but even at that rate whether...

"true leftists" or 'liberals', the lines *are* easily blended in an America where property and ownership are matters of civil economic exchange. As is by extension 'true rightists' or conservatives indeed apolitical people with no affiliation whatsoever are able to participate and that to me is part of the beauty of American Freedoms & Liberties!

A concern of mine in these blanketed wars which we allude to, class or otherwise; is that they are able to pull the eye too far afield searching for "house negroes" and "field slaves" with a nod to only one color, as a for instance, in a world wherein slaves & servants both have been gathered in all colors to serve they more ascended than you & I put together...or so they would have us believe. No...

The right-wing calls us "LeftyFringeNuts"; and we call them "RightWingNuts" FYI, however, they draw no distinction between "true leftists" and liberals. They see all leftists as one colloidal evil. To their way of thinking they are one and the same; everything left of center to the far left. Only on the left do people consider handing "field slaves" warm straight from the oven cookies on a cookie sheet to be better/more ascended than handing them fresh baked from a Tupperware bowl with a burp lid.

I'm not confusing anything, I'm just wishing you a peaceful evening :)

[Odin2005]

63. I'm a Market (co-op-based economy) Socialist and I'm FOR the bailout.

These "let it collapse" people are insane. If the economy collapses it's a good chance the US will fall into the hands of theocratic Dominionists.

[Truth2Tell]

108. It's not "let it collapse."

It's going to collapse anyway, so why give away 700 Billion more to the architects of the collapse?

[smiley_glad_hands]

64. Don't who to believe, so I trust Obama. eom

[malaise]

65. Super post

K & R. :toast:

[Liberal Dose]

67. True Leftist checking in! nt

:hi:

[TZ]

68. Class war..how nice!

So, once again the ugly bigotry of the left is exposed..why is it NOT okay for the Right to say all poor people are lazy and stupid but OKAY to bash rich people as evil and corrupt. My dad who is ill and old has money yes, but his retirement depends on stocks.
So to all of you let the rich suffer..I give you a hearty fuck you!
Leftists have compassion something thats sorely lacking here on DU these days.

[mhatrw]

110. Don't worry. Those Big Pharma stocks are safe as long as we lack

nationalized health care!

[scarletwoman]

149. I'm re-reading my OP & I simply don't see anything in it where I bashed

"rich people as evil and corrupt".

I suppose I ought not to be amazed anymore about people accusing other people of saying things they never said, but it's still a bit surreal.

Being rich isn't the problem, it's what *some* people do in order to GET rich that's the problem.

The recently departed and much-mourned Paul Newman was a rich man, but he never exploited anyone in order to acquire wealth. He just did what he loved to do and prospered by it. That's wonderful. What's even more wonderful is that he was determined to put his wealth to work to help others.

Opposition to the Paulson/Pelosi bailout bill was NOT an opposition to ALL possible solutions to the current mess. It was important to stop the hysterical fear-inspired stampede to doing something that would have fucked us up worse than we already are.

sw

[Moochy]

69. Amen to that scarletwoman

Cue plutocratic underground supporters now!

[mike_c]

71. ki cked and recommended!

Nothing will stop the rat bastards when they smell money.

[fascisthunter]

73. Hello.... and Good Morning Friends

[prolesunited]

74. Three cheers for the collapse of America!

Who cares if people will be left out dying in the streets.

[Moochy]

75. That Straw Man you set up had no chance

You totally knocked it out!

[girl gone mad]

167. people are dying on the streets.

open your eyes.

[LanternWaste]

76. Additionally, I think it's illustrated...

Additionally, I think it's illustrated that a few of us have a pretty good understanding macro economics, while many of us.... not so much.

Put me solidly in the latter category. :P

[Marie26]

77. Along with Ron Paul & the House Republicans!

True lefties, all. I'm against this bill on general principle, but it's not as simple as left/right on this issue. Or even Ownership class/Working class. I can't even figure out what the split actually is. Consumer advocates like Dodd favor it, while repulsive Republicans like Cantor oppose it. There's no rhyme or reason to it.

[moodforaday]

80. One rule of thumb

is, are you prepared to trust the government when they say the sky is falling to institute the best possible solution. Of course this precedes any rational analysis, but will probably influence anyone's thinking.

And the issue is twofold: IS the sky falling, and IS the bailout the best possible solution. You can answer yes to the former but say no to the latter.

[NoPasaran]

82. If by "true leftists" you mean "self-righteous slogan chanters"

Then I cannot disagree with you.

[scarletwoman]

160. Why, yes! That's EXACTLY what I mean! How very astute of you!

Thank goodness for all the deep thinkers here on DU.

sw

[Imagevision]

83. Michael Moore's thread pretty much nailed what's going down...

[nini]

84. Where does the middle class fit into your class war?

?

Do we have to destroy the middle class to make the 'true leftists' happy?

[Imagevision]

86. The middle class role is to foot the tab to the Barron's...

[bluesmail]

87. Yes. That defines it perfectly.

:hi:

[Pastiche423]

88. RECOMMEND!

A true lefty here.

[Naturyl]

89. K&R for truth

We know who is playing on which team - and they are the only two teams that have ever really mattered.

[On the Road]

91. Actually We Know Who the People Are

who support our Democratic candidate and elected leaders and those outside the party hoping for the destruction of the country.

[Individualist]

92. Hear, hear!

[Joe Fields]

93. I don't know who or what to believe, but I'll say this...

Unless a bailout is tied to truly historic financial industry reform, and liens against property for collateral to insure against total loss, then I am against a bailout.

[Raineyb]

128. I couldn't have said it better myself

That is exactly what I want to see if there is to be a bailout. Without the industry reforms we'd just be pissing away more money and going into more debt to do so. If we're going to fork over that kind of money we should get a share in any company that takes the bailout money. Then the government can sell the shares at a profit later on. Otherwise it smells of a huge transfer of wealth to people who have been gaming the system and ripping us off in the first place.

Regards

[MadrasT]

95. I'm a little shocked at how many people on DU have

climbed aboard the "Bailout Bus" and are SO SURE that they are right. Oh NOES!!11!! MUST HAS BAILOUT NOW!!!!!!11! And if you're not "for" this bailout going through RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!1!, you must be some sort of economic moran.

Bullshit. Shock doctrine in action.

The Catch-22 is that by trying to ram their "shock" down our throats, they've further destabilized the markets.

So we're screwn either way.

Do we need to do something? Probably. But Paulson's plan or any permutation of it stinks to high heaven.

Edit to add some more obscenities.

[scarletwoman]

136. Thank you for adding more obscenities! Obscenities are the most apt means of describing this shit!

Thank you for calling it what it is, an obscenity!

Great post! :D

sw

[lonestarnot]

96. Why you screaming lib you!

:toast: :evilgrin: :beer:

[lostnotforgotten]

97. Definite Lefty Here - Down With Fascists - Down With Plutocrats - Down With Oligarchs!

eom

[mhatrw]

100. There is no class war.

Only anti-rich terrorism.

That's the nature of "warfare" this asymmetrical.

[scarletwoman]

142. I'm not "anti-rich" per se, I'm anti-exploitation and anti-oppression.

The rich have nothing to fear from me if they are well-behaved. :D

sw

[mhatrw]

146. My point is that saying there is a class war is like like saying that

the US has a war with Grenada.

The rich have nukes, media conglomerates and our supposed representatives; we have pitchforks and keyboards.

[scarletwoman]

155. There IS a class war. And the Owner class has been winning for over 30 years.

When you're outgunned you do guerilla warfare.

Gandhi didn't give up, MLK didn't give up, why should we?

You gotta resist, you gotta not give in. You gotta keep standing for truth and justice.

sw

[TBF]

103. K&R

:toast:

[iheartmulletz]

106. Proud proletariat on DU!

I am surprised how many on here are defending the bailout.

[Truth2Tell]

109. Shout right back at ya! K&R

:toast:

I was just thinking the same thing. It's amazing how many DUers have exposed how dependent they are on the establishment propaganda apparatus for their "opinions" today.

[tbyg52]

112. I know which side I'm on.

I lost a bunch of money today - I'm not even going to look. I hate to think what my employer's pension investments look like.

But not having lost it would not be worth having all that power handed over to Paulson. (I saw in another post here that they apparently just disguised Section 8, rather than removed it).

I didn't have time to read the whole thing, but I am deeply suspicious just based on previous experience.

I'm getting to where I just hate rich people. I'm tired of watching the antics of people who have more than they can ever use, except by sheerest extravagance and waste.

[tama]

173. Rather than hating

the rich people, it's better to pity them.

The rich really hate poor slobs pitying them.

[tbyg52]

182. I must respectfully disagree

They don't hate anything except losing their money.

[pinto]

113. Varying opinions on this bailout bill among Democrats is about discussion.

Neither a bill out of the House or a clear definition of the "lines" that need be drawn are a done deal.

Please don't foster broad brush assumptions about our membership.

We encourage all members to discuss this issue without accusatory labels.

[IronLionZion]

115. So true leftists want free markets to take care of this mess?

I hope you realize a lot of Repubs, libertarians, and free marketeers oppose the bailout. Handing over 80% equity shares to the federal reserve at rock bottom prices is no picnic. These firms are not enjoying this.

[Truth2Tell]

129. Where do you get 80% equity shares?

I haven't seen anything that would give the Treasury 80% of anything, much less even a controlling interest. 80% would be effective nationalization, and the plans on the table do not propose that. :shrug:

[IronLionZion]

177. Here you go. 79.9% is standard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_takeover_of_Fannie_Mae_and_Freddie_Mac#Capital_infusion_by_the_Treasury

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_International_Group#Federal_Reserve_bailout

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_bailout_of_U.S._financial_system_(2008)

If you don't trust wikipedia, click on the references at the bottom of each page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailout

[Truth2Tell]

180. Your first two links

are regarding Freddie/Fannie and AIG. The current bailout proposal is an entirely different proposition than those. It includes entirely different terms - nothing to do with those previous buyouts. And the last two links don't reference 80% equity anywhere, even in the reference links. I still haven't heard anyone suggest 80% equity (or anything close) as part of this current bailout.

[sendero]

139. Are you serious..

.... they are handing over securities that are essentially worthless - they would be LUCKY to get 10 cents on the dollar.

So many folks here just dont' get it. Even on NPR I hear "analysts" opining that "some" of these mortgages will be paid therefore these securities are worth "something".

What they don't understand is that these "securities" involve leverage of up to 100 to 1. If you have something that is leveraged 100 to 1, if it loses 1% of its value the security is WORTHLESS.

The other thing that the "pro bailout" folks don't seem to get is that if we do this, we will have to start PRINTING MONEY. Inflation is as pernicious a phenomenon as the other horrible eventualities we're supposed to be obviating, if you don't think so ask an Argentinian or a Weimar German.

When it comes to economics, there are NEVER any FREE LUNCHES yet people seem to think we can just click our heels and "instant bailout" problem solved. Never happened, never will.

[scarletwoman]

154. Thank you! Spot on post!

I think what we're seeing is the enormity of the fear about the inevitable changes that lie ahead.

We are in for some really hard times. Not because scarletwoman said the Paulson/Pelosi bailout bill sucked, but because we've already been ripped off and fucked over six ways to Sunday.

The Paulson/Pelosi bailout bill was a setup to rip us off some MORE! It's insane to think that the people who enabled and encouraged this gigantic rip-off were going to fix it so it so the proles wouldn't be fucked again.

I mean, come ON! Why the hell would anyone believe these people?

We've -- THANKFULLY! -- bought ourselves a little more time. Let's use this time to push for something that really, truly takes care of the People.

sw

[IronLionZion]

178. The fed got equity stakes in the companies.

They are not getting a free lunch. Something has to be used for collateral on the loans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_takeover_of_Fannie_Mae_and_Freddie_Mac#Capital_infusion_by_the_Treasury

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_International_Group#Federal_Reserve_bailout

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_bailout_of_U.S._financial_system_(2008)

What makes you think I'm "pro-bailout"? More assumptions?

[Sparkly]

127. Which is the "leftist" position on this, and why?

:shrug:

[4 t 4]

132. Present !

[Douglas Carpenter]

135. I have been a socialist all my life and so were my parents all their lives

But I for one, believe that humanity is more important than ideology.

I for one believe that doing everything possible including dining with the devil himself is the right thing to do to protect countless millions of people from destitution and poverty.

[Sparkly]

137. That's a socialist view -- which is why I asked what I did above.

Given that we're stuck with a capitalist system, what's considered the "leftist" view here, and why?

[tama]

174. And that's my problem

with socialism. Putting humanity above rest of the planet. And materialism.

[scheming daemons]

144. This is a war where we ALL lose... left, right, rich, poor.... and everyone in between

You just don't get it.

[dpbrown]

147. The Bushes are still trying to get the government back for shutting down their Nazi bank

All the money goes to the military and the banks, leaving the people to forge a new feudal serf/landlord society.

Trickle down my ass.

[Stinky The Clown]

148. I wish my world were as simple minded as yours

I'm amazed you can draw such a complete assessment of people by a few comments on a message board. That's quite a feat. Please share with us how you do it.

How wonderful it is to be so certain of shit.

:eyes:

[lonestarnot]

150. Holy crap! Are you in a bad mood or something?

I've never seen you like this. Me maybe, but not you.

[scarletwoman]

152. I have super powers! And a cape! It's really awesome!

I've been on DU for over seven years, need I say more? :)

sw

[Waiting For Everyman]

151. Damn straight!

[johnaries]

153. No, it's only shown who pays attention and who is clueless.

The fat cats will still be fine. They won't be making as much money, but they'll still have plenty. It's the rest of us who will be fucked.

If they are unemployed, they'll just retire to their mansions and yachts. If you and I are unemployed, what do you expect us to do?

That's what we are talking about. All business grinding to a halt. No jobs, for anybody.

Google "broke the buck".

[TexasObserver]

157. To me, it's about whether it is politically wise to do.

If the public clamors for a bailout, then I want Democrats to pass it.

But that hasn't happened yet. Democrats got the cart before the horse. First, the public wants it. Then, you pass it.

I guarantee all the PASS IT NOW advocates that when today's bill failed and the DOW dropped 777 points on the day, Obama's chances of winning Florida just doubled. Let it slip another 777 points by Thursday, and 65% of the population will be asking for a bailout bill. THAT is when to act.

[gravity]

158. Class warfare from both sides hurts the economy

The economy is not a zero sum game. This notion that something that helps out banks takes away from the middle class is false.

[scarletwoman]

164. I'm sorry, that makes NO sense whatsoever. WHOSE economy gets hurt?

The economy of the people who work 2 or 3 minimum wage jobs with no healthcare? They'll get hurt if they fight against the system that traps them in an impossible no-win situation?

Or how about the economy of the factory worker whose last days on the job consist of packing up the machinery he's worked on for 20 years to get it ready for shipping to China? He'll get hurt if he objects and wants to know why he shouldn't be able to make a living anymore?

Maybe you're talking about the economy of the single mother who didn't really understand that the guy who was so eager to help her fulfill her longtime dream of having a home of own to raise her kids in was really lying to her and trapping her in an impossible situation just so he could chalk up another fat commission?

Is THAT the economy we should be saving?

Just askin'...

sw

[Batgirl]

161. I've actually seen discussions here where the proposed bailout

was examined from different angles and in a civil manner by many of the participants. Just as I saw many disagreements where people on both sides of the argument were attributing dark motives and/or stupidity to those with whom they disagreed.

I saw people who objected to the bailout accused of actually cheering for economic collapse and human suffering. Just as I've seen pro-bailout people accused of being wealthy snobs who would open fire on a soup kitchen if it meant saving their investment portfolios.

There is a lot of demonization going on, I think people are extremely fearful about what may or may not happen -- maybe it's just human nature to fixate on some feeling of certainty and then fling poo at anyone who is perceived to threaten that.

(edit to fix typo)

[malaise]

193. The only way neoliberal capitalism thrives is if human

suffering increases. All the data shows that. Maybe it is time for a new system. Have you looked at income disparities across classes and across the planet. How can 400 people have more wealth than the bottom 150 million in America and you continue to cheer on this system. The gap between rich and poor has widened beyond belief in the past two decades. Something has to change - poor people are already dying.

The bailout won't work. They will want more and more and more.

sp., add.

[BrklynLiberal]

162. K&R

[NoSheep]

165. Shouting back at you! Woot!

:toast:

[entanglement]

172. My 2c, as a Marxist and a socialist

The utterly decaying foundations of international finance capital (in particular the Reagan-Thatcher Anglo-American ponzi scheme) and the utter moral bankruptcy of the predator class have been laid bare for all to see. So much is clear. These events have occurred very quickly; so quickly, that the ruling class has been thrown into disarray and confusion. Competing sections of the ruling class are already jockeying to benefit in someway (whether politically or financially). Howls of despair went up today when the finance parasites realized their fraudulent schemes had been checked (if only temporarily).

The American working class is angry at the depth of the deception and fraud, but it is also confused. Led by the media and other reactionary forces, attempts are already being made to channel this discontent against scapegoats. This will only worsen matters - beware of those who attempt to divert your anger along nationalistic or other parochial lines. This is a period of acute danger globally, with reactionary forces gaining power on the one hand (e.g. Austria) and a sharpening of nation-state rivalry on the other (read what the Germans are saying).

If anything, these events demonstrate how urgently America needs to embrace socialism. Not the fake reformist variety espoused by the unions and many Democrats, but the complete re-organization of society into one that meet people's needs, and not the greed of a tiny parasitic elite. Only such a program would bring a lasting solution to the crisis working people face now. Democratic control of corporations by workers, an immediate end to imperialist wars, complete restructuring of the banking and finance systems, higher taxes on the wealthy with confiscation of the wealth of the predatory, resources for steady jobs, health-care and education for all, the eradication of all fascist and oppressive tendencies in society...the list is endless.

In the meanwhile...let no one be deceived by the swindlers who claim that their miracle band-aid will cure the gangrenous limb that is the profit system and peddle it to you for a trillion dollars.

[magdalena]

176. This post is somewhat distressing.

I'm not convinced that this is such a black and white issue. All I know is that ALL of us, no matter what our class, are facing a potential shitstorm and its apparent that no one knows what the fuck to do about it. We are being bombarded with arguments for and against the bailout, and to me and my limited knowledge of economics (despite trying to educate myself as much as possible on this issue) they all seem perfectly valid. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels confused and overwhelmed by all of this. I am lucky to have most of my representatives be individuals I have actually voted for. I just have to trust the officials that I've supported know more about this than I do and will vote with their constituent's best interests in mind. Senator Russ Feingold is one. I trust this man a great deal and if he favors this measure I will support it as well. If he doesn't I won't. Maybe this is naive - but what the fuck is the point of voting for them if I can't trust them to represent me properly when I am mostly ignorant about a particular issue? So where does this leave me? Am I leftist or rightist? Guess that is up to Feingold to decide.

With all that nonsense aside, what is REALLY distressing here is all the divisiveness that has been polluting DU since word of this bailout. I may only have 80 posts, but I've been a lurking member since '04 and have come to love the spirit of this community. While our opinions may differ, I believe we all must share some common goal or we would not be here. I don't know exactly what that goal is, but I'm pretty sure unity, not division will help us get there. These are hard times for all of us - this calls for compassion, not hostility. SW, seeing as you have the mantra of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of compassion, in your signature I would expect that you might know this.

[IronLionZion]

179. You're right about that, it's not a liberal vs. conservative issue, or black and white

and it sure as hell isn't as simple as people want to make it out to be. Most of the posters here are offering opinions without even reading the plans. And many of our legislators are thinking about the election.

[KG]

183. people seem to be all for 'change' as long as it's comfortable and convenient.

a yoke with velvet covered padding.

[scarletwoman]

186. When the cage door is left open, most will opt for staying in the cage. (nt)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

184. I don't think there's any truth in that at all.

It's revealed several things - that many DUers regard hurting "the rich" as an end in itself, and good not merely even if it doesn't help "the poor", but even if it actually harms them; and that many DUers don't have much understanding of economics.

But it hasn't revealed who is and isn't a "true leftist".

The debate doesn't seem to have split along left/right lines at all - rather is seems to have split between those primarily concerned with ideology - both left and right - or with politics, who mostly oppose the bailout because it is seen (inaccurately, I suspect) as "giving money state money to the rich", which offends both left and right for different reasons; and those primarily concerned with economics and humanitarianism who support it because it seems to make the chance of a second great depression much slimmer.

[Two Americas]

188. straw man

"Hurting the rich" is a malicious misrepresentation of the arguments here, and it is also extremely reactionary. It might be the most reactionary argument of any you could make. The same argument was used against Abolitionists and the early Labor organizers.

The poor are hurt everyday. People express a desire to hurt the poor all the time.

[workinclasszero]

185. Wall Street can go to hell

Those bastards ALWAYS cheer when some American corporation off-shores jobs. Now its their turn to get a little payback!

The tears of the rich and greedy taste like pure honey to me! FUCK WALL STREET!

If that makes me a leftist then YIPPEE! So be it!

[shadowknows69]

187. Sadly I think I'm still on neutral ground.

I'm very torn. I don't pretend to know enough about economics to know the potential implications of inaction, but the case for the bailout hasn't been sufficiently made to me either. It feels rushed, it feels like it's enabling more of the same and it feels like it's against the overwhelming will of the people, including some who do know what they're talking about, and that's what bothers me the most. It feels like we're being ignored as usual.

[Individualist]

190. DLC detesting leftist here

Shouting out to you too. :hi:

[Chemical Bill]

192. I emailed all my DC critters,

said I was against the bailout, but they all voted for it anyway. I wonder if that's because they get lots of campaign contributions from Wall St.

Bill

[Lydia Leftcoast]

195. My guess is that it's because they were told that everyone would blame

them if they voted against the bill and the economy collapsed. Or else they were threatened or blackmailed.

I'm with Scarletwoman here. Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT. You don't trust Bush and the president of Goldman-Sachs to do the right thing with an outright blank check (first version) or a blank check with unenforceable suggestions attached to it (second version).

Read the Ken'ichi Ohmae article that I posted in Editorials.

[scarletwoman]

196. Hey, Lydia! Thank you! Yeah, I'll definitely go read that article.

I was totally surprised to see this thread show up again. It's pretty fascinating to re-read all the various reactions to what I originally thought of as just sort of a throw-away OP.

sw

[Karenina]

198. $700B is only a "baby step," they say...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3525474

[Retired AF Dem]

199. No more proof needed

We are no longer a representative Government. Neither party gives a shit what the "people" think. Time for people in both parties to vote out of office everyone that voted for the bail out.