Are you looking to stick it to the rich? Well, whatever happens, that won't

[jpgray]

I see a lot of high-handed posts on these boards welcoming an economic collapse. Some sort of schadenfreude? A just punishment of those who created the mess? These feelings are completely understandable, but will any of this comeuppance actually occur?

Signs point to "no." What has the potential to fail here is -not- the rich officers of these overextended companies, but simply the companies themselves. CEOs and other board members and executives have the liquidity to ride this out whatever happens to our credit system--working class folks do not, as many of their assets and purchasing power have the potential to be wiped out. A failed corporation has little to no catastrophic impact on its chief robber barons at all--they get out more or less as well off as they came in. What a collapse of financial firms -will- impact is our credit system--and all those who are dependent on it. Guess who that is?

Now any bailout will of course help these rich gamblers in some way--it's good that Dodd and Frank are trying to limit this as much as they can. But a total lack of bailout will not correspondingly -hurt- them in any significant way. Such failure to act would have the potential to hurt me and you, however.

Based on what I've read, this seems to be the case. If you have expert opinion that contradicts me, please post it below!

[Stellabella]

1. We need to increase the tax rate on top earners.

By a lot. And a surcharge, plus a windfall profits tax would be a good idea. The rich, who have made out like bandits over the past 28 years, need to start paying.

[jpgray]

2. Yes! Problem is, it won't likely pass as part of the bailout

The House GOP and the blue dog coalition of our caucus amount to a strong majority--249 seats. As the GOP are dead-set against increasing taxes and the blue dogs are likely to avoid controversy, I don't see this passing. It is the obvious way to go, however, and perhaps should be tried in part anyway.

[Stellabella]

3. Hopefully under President Obama it will happen.

Because otherwise the whole country is going to go belly up. The middle class can't afford any more.

[jpgray]

4. That's the thing though--we need to make the right move before November

And our options are dwindling rapidly. Part of me says the Dems should put forth a consumers-first bill and attempt to shove it through--hopefully the GOP will not dare to obstruct it. I just doubt we have the party unity necessary to make such a move.

[Stellabella]

10. Yeah, a consumer's first bill would lock in the White House

and Congress. I just don't see what's so hard about freezing mortgage interest rates, credit card rates, and fixing mortgages in the foreclosure courts to keep people in their homes. That doesn't require a massive amount of money, and it would lessen a lot of grief.

[jpgray]

11. The GOP is going to fight any sort of reincarnation of the HOLC

Even though doing so is an inarguably smart idea. Anything remotely "New Deal" is going to get obstructed until at least after the election--there are advantages to trying it anyway, however. I just don't think we have the caucus unity to pull it off.

[bemildred]

5. Both the French and Russian revolutions say you are wrong.

Among a large number of other, less impressive incidents. I'm not in favor of that sort of thing, but the stupid shits that are "leading" us now need to buy themselves a clue while it is not too late. The root and fundament of legitimate rule is to rule well, and ruling well means that well-meaning people who do as they are told do not get destroyed as a matter of course.

[jpgray]

6. So wait, you don't see a severe recession or depression, you see a revolution?

[dweller]

7. a guy can still dream all the same, no?

You are probably correct in that the fat cats will not suffer at all, and sadly no matter what the outcome. And that is the saddest commentary of it all, that they will escape consequences whether they fail (as leaders of the corps) or are bailed out. I expect many wish the misfortune upon the over-privileged individuals and not the workers or themselves.

as for contradictions: i'm surprised to see the immediate reactions as measured by the stock market to previous closings/takeovers and the meager reaction to the WAMU scenario this last thursday - i for one expected a dive on friday, esp. since the 'bailout' had stalled. Apparantly there is still control and lack of panic exercised when a possible favorable outcome waves carrot-like on the stick soon. And that to me in my inexpert position leads me to think a great deal, how much i couldn't say, is possibly 'manufactured' to produce the outcome when needed to affect the economy in directions out of the common populace's control.

Especially since 'control' of the immediate environment to a majority of the human population is a constant striving to make ends meet, doing what is right to ensure a modicum of security in their life and not understanding the imbalance of favor that life itself delivers. 'That's life' is a meager response and a bitter pill when comparing one's own lot to the heaps accumulated by those that have gotten their's in a manner that only punishes others, but never affecting the offender. Personally i credit that widespread feeling to a subconscious acceptance of Karmic retribution/Golden Rule/Faith in higher power, and not a wish of overall doom to themselves or others whether realized or not.

But if anything the last 8 yrs have shown to a great many is that situations (of all levels) have gotten to extremes that benefit the few only, and there needs to be a great leveling that will restore our world to an even keel. Lack of faith in the political reps who have allowed much of this imbalance to occur (or participated in it) to correct it is understandable, imo. I'm not sure i see any reactionary response as 'high-handed' as much as an acceptance of a last resort instead, when nothing else seems to be working.

The bitter pill may be poisonous afterall, but also has the potential to heal, and either way relieves the immediate suffering however it works.
dp

[jpgray]

8. And that fear of immediate downturn, justified or no, is what is driving Congress

Democrats don't want to be seen as presiding over a collapse having failed to do anything, and the GOP sees this as an opportunity to promote an economist-ridiculed joke of an alternative plan which they know will never pass--a fig leaf for their obstructionism and refusal to cooperate. The GOP can also deny bipartisan support to any bill that makes the floor, thus hanging all the political risk on the Democrats either way.

This makes the argument that the Dems should pass the most solid, little-guy friendly bill they can and damn the obstruction. Unfortunately, given a non-majority in the Senate and a sixteen seat lead in the House that is undermined by forty-seven blue dogs, I don't see how such an unabashedly New Deal-ish plan can hope to pass in this climate. Perhaps they should untie solidly behind the little guy in as many numbers as is possible and try anyway.

The GOP plan must be trounced and ridiculed on every public appearance. It is more deregulation, suspension of the capital gains tax and free market hand-waving; we ought to reject Paulson's plan even in spirit and push push push for the working class. We lack the unity and will to do it, I believe, but perhaps we should try anyway.

[dweller]

16. oh, i agree

in principal w/ both your OP and this response. But the machinations of what will transpire seems to be out of the hands of the working class majority of our country's population, and to observe the reactions is more than a weathervane of what they want to happen. It is a reflection of how beaten down many feel. And a resignation at best since nothing else seems to effect some change.

i guess my response was to your question: do you know what you are wishing for? was my attempt to point out that too, too many have given up on a fair recompense and that imo is understandable. Now, show me/us the clear path to resolution that doesn't prop up the rotting foundation, for it will likely just crumble too. I don't expect most to be as jaded as i am, but many want a glimmer of hope. If you provide that amazingly it might persuade most, maybe not all but most, another attempt is possible. But i'm not sure you've convinced yourself. Banking on the political rescue is like watching Pong in fast motion, back and forth back and forth, nothing accomplished.

Instead, sometimes the best approach is to allow what is inevitable happen, and then from the result build up again. It may not be so catastrophic as predicted, but even if so the energy wasted on trying to save this obviously failing situation might be better served in the resurrection in a new form.
I think the Dems are right in attempting to construct some plan to promote the working class, but it will not ever pass w/out the repugs support and that will never come. Perhaps that is the strategy, allow it to fail but with the best intention presented.

If that is the game it's not convincing as this seems to have moved beyond gaming. Either it is the end, or it is not. I am confident w/ myself that it is not, but either way i will fight to survive.
Now after crafting this reply, i let it sit for abit and looked about at some examples here, not from the MSM, but from just here on DU that would provide what i'm observing and of what you may be, and most likely are considering in your focus on this dilemma. Here is but one, now two,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3515152#3515289
edit to add: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x388001#388004

and it makes your point, but mine as also. Too many are at the end of the rope of 'solutions'.
dp

[SayitAintSo]

9. We'll all see the REAL meaning of "trickle down" economics if that happens n/t

[avaistheone1]

12. How will a collapse of Goldman Sachs hurt the working folks?

[jpgray]

13. A collapse of the credit system will. What makes you think GS is the only thing at risk?

[avaistheone1]

14. Do you mean to say that if 9/11 took out the largest banking houses on Wall Street

our credit system would not survive?

[jpgray]

15. You mean just the buildings? Do you believe all firms housed in the WTC failed?

[avaistheone1]

17. Yes. If all the firms failed....