Clinton cannot be blamed for this mess

[malaise]

Anything he did could have been undone between 2000 and 2006 when Rethugs controlled the Executive, Senate and House. Ask those Rethugs who gave Bush a veto proof majority for the Gramm's 'dead of night' bill.

McCain voted for that bill. Biden did not. Fugg the LIARS!

[last1standing]

1. It's even simpler than that.

The president does not have the ability to propose legislation on the floor of the house or senate. The president can only sign a bill, veto a bill or not sign a bill and let it become law by absence of a veto. Therefore the repub controlled congress is to blame for creating and voting for the legislation that has allowed all of this to occur.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. He should have vetoed it, so insofar as that much, he shares in the blame

not all of it, not even the majority, but he should have vetoed

And historians will not give him that pass

[Grateful for Hope]

6. Agree

He definitely should have vetoed.

[last1standing]

7. Very true but I'm talking about where the blame really lies with black/white thinking.

I'm sure some repubs, like Chaffee, voted against the bill while some dems like Nelson and Baucus voted for it. Still, if the repubs want to make this a talking point then we need to push the blame squarely back in their corner. They introduced and were the majority of yes voters on this legislation.

In a less extreme worldview, of course Clinton is to blame for part of this, just as he is for many things that have gone wrong. No president or Democrat is 100% perfect. We really do tend to vote for the lesser of evils rather than the greater of goods.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. And that is not the issue... as a historian I can tell you right now

he will not be given a pass... it will take 10 years and many a PhD to sort through this mess, but Clinton will NOT be given a pass

Why? He is the chief executive at the time many of these decisions and laws were passed.

And if we are to be honest, as painful as it may be, we have to be far more nuanced than trying to just blame one side. Granted, in the simplistic mind of the Murican people the republicans will get the lion share of the blame, and they should... by the way

At least that is what I was trained to do... and I will NOT give William Jefferson Clinton a pass... in fact his legacy is far more complicated than just ten years of prosperity and is getting some tarnish, rightfully earned, right now.

[last1standing]

12. Come November 5th I'll agree with you 100%.

But for now when we're actively trying to win an election filled with 2 second soundbites and sideshow issues I'm going to continue calling this the repubs' fault since the blame does lie mostly with them anyway.

Clinton, much like Johnson, will go down in history as a very complex man who battled his own worst demons while in the white house. He'll also go down as a brilliant politician but a very short sighted one as he never thought what the lack of proper regulations and controls could do under the watch of someone like bush* and cheney. Perhaps his greatest legacy will be the lesson that these laws were in place for a reason. :shrug:

Still, until this election is over you're not likely to hear me focusing on the wrongs of Democrats while the wrongs of repubs are so much greater.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. That is why I guess I am not a partisan

[last1standing]

16. Which is fine by me.

I certainly don't think you're wrong, but I do think that by focusing on Clinton we let the repubs off the hook for their greater culpability. Basically what happens generally is the repubs claim it's 100% Clinton's fault and the Dems say it's only 25% his fault. The media then compromises and says it's only 75% Clinton's fault and the low information voters think that it must be Clinton's fault so the Dems are not the ones to vote for.

Yes it's stupid but it's sadly true. I just think it's important to get Obama elected so that mcsame doesn't have the chance to rape this country for 4 more years so I'm willing to gloss over some things I don't personally like until the election is over. You think 100% truth 100% of the time is the greater calling.

I can't fault you there, but I have to live differently.

[malaise]

14. It was veto proof n/t

[Greyhound]

5. As long as you choose to overlook the fact that Clinton flipped over 30 Senators

to vote for the final bill after informing them that he wanted it and would sign it.

Was it all his fault? Hell no, but without him it could not have been done.

[last1standing]

8. See post #7. It explains what I'm talking about. n/t

[BOSSHOG]

2. I used to be

on an Inspector General's staff in the Navy. On occasion we would uncover some really bad administrative fuck ups. (Nothing life threatening just fucked up.) And he who would be in charge would eventually back pedal to "well it was this bad when I got here and I've only been here about two years." I heard that same line way more then once.

Members of the gop never, ever take responsibility for anything.

I hope you are enjoying the weather Malaise. I look at the long range forecast and my stomach is calm and collected.

[malaise]

15. Yes some good weather at last

but that might change next week. Glad you survived another one. :hi:

I hold no brief for Clinton but if they didn't like what he facilitated, they could have overturned it. That said - Rethugs were the majority in Congress.

[liberal N proud]

3. Do you think that will stop them from trying?

[fascisthunter]

9. Clinton Isn't Running: "McCain voted for that bill. Biden did not."

That's all....

[samuraiguppy]

10. default freeper position

= blame the Clenis

[guitar man]

17. this goes back a lot farther than that

It's a lot bigger than one bill being voted on and signed. This whole mess goes all the way back to 1980 and the rise of Reaganomics and that whole cult of dipshit personality crap that has haunted us for the last 28 years. A snowball started rolling downhill then and has been rolling for 28 years until it has finally rolled over us.

We have to change our thinking to change this country. We have to stop looking back at that old bastard all misty-eyed, yank off the rose colored glasses and see the ugliness of what he really stood for beneath all his flowery rhetoric or we WILL wind up right back in the same shitheap!!

[DainBramaged]

18. Tell that to the MORANS here (oh you did).