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Could Venezuela become the next Cuba?

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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 08:11 PM
Original message
Could Venezuela become the next Cuba?
Let me get this out there right away. I have doubts that there would be a change in tone in Venezuelan relations if Obama (hopefully, please) gets elected. Although I agree with Chavez's social policies, I also understand that his rhetoric and saber rattling is counterproductive a lot of the time. Now we have this.



Russian bombers arrive in Venezuela
Chavez, right, supported Russia in its recent conflict with Georgia

Russia has flown two long-range bombers to Venezuela for military exercises, a move likely to cause concern in Washington.

Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, said on Wednesday that the Tu-160 strategic bombers had arrived to strengthen military ties and to counter US regional influence.

"They go around saying Chavez has brought the Cold War to Venezuela," he said.

"What's coming is a multipolar world in which Venezuela is a free country, that's what's coming," Chavez said in a televised speech.

The planes arrived days after the two nations announced plans to hold joint naval exercises in the Caribbean later this year involving a nuclear-powered Russian battleship.

Al Jazeera's Mariana Sanchez in Caracas said the move also sent a message to Venezuela's opposition, who have been critical of Chavez in recent days, over the power of the president.

Poor relations

The Russian defence ministry said the bombers flew to Venezuela on a training mission and would conduct training flights over neutral waters in the next few days before returning, according to Russian media reports.

Russia remains angry at the US for its support for Georgia during the recent conflict over the region of South Ossetia, when US military vessels delivered aid to Georgia.

Alexander Konovalov, head of the Institute for Strategic Assessment in Moscow, said the deployment would lead to a further deterioration in relations between the US and Russia.

"It's a demonstration of Russia's ability to do things nasty: you send warships to the Black Sea and we send bombers next to your door," Konovalov said.

"It will have a negative impact on global stability."

Chavez has strongly backed Russia's stance on the Georgian conflict and recently visited Moscow to seal a series of defence and economic agreements.

He denied that Russia's plans for naval exercises to be held later this year are related, saying the Russian navy's visit had been planned for more than a year.

Chavez, a former paratrooper, also said he would fly one of the aircraft himself.

"What's more, I'm going to take the controls of one of these monsters," he said.

The planes, huge supersonic combat aircraft than can fly long missions with a heavy payload, are capable of carrying nuclear or conventional bombs.





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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hey! I thought Iran was the boogie man! n/t
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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Look, that's not my point at all... I just doubt that the threatening behavior will change when...
Obama becomes President. Obama has said repeatedly he will send envoys from day 1 to deal with these issues. They are serious problems meant for serious people. Obama will have to deal with it. Don't dismiss my post as GoP pick an enemy kind of thing.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Venezuela does not feel threatened by Americans ...
... they have been threatened by the current administration.

If Russia puts nukes (or other weaponry) in Venezuela, that is also a message to Colombia.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. No, I didn't think you meant "GOP pick an enemy." But I wasn't sure how you
meant the analogy to the Soviet Russia/Cuba relationship vis a vis the U.S. during the Cold War. Did you mean that the Bush junta would take us to Defcon 1 over a few Russian fighter planes in maneuvers? But that doesn't really compare to Soviet nukes being installed in Cuba back in the early 1960s. I can see the Bushites taking it that way, though, as an excuse for hostilities. Is that what you meant?
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think this is more of a big FU send off to * & Co, then an actual
reheating of the Cold War. Chavez most likely picked a big friend to hang out with until * left or stopped F-ing with him. Coups tend to put leaders on edge. I think Russia is playing the game because it gives them a way to poke * in the eye.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. What exactly do you mean by "the next Cuba"? Venezuela is a democracy,
and a better one than ours in many ways. For instance, Venezuela conducts highly transparent, internationally monitored elections. Our elections are 100% non-transparent, controlled by private Bushite corporations, using 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code. The Venezuelans have elected, and re-elected Chavez, in transparent elections, because the great majority (63% of the voters in the last election) approve of his policies and believe them to be in their best interest. Venezuela now gets a 60/40 split of the revenues from their oil resource, for instance, due to Chavez's tough bargaining with the multinationals. His government uses those revenues for education, medical care, fostering small business and local manufacturing, land reform and other benefits for the poor and for the society in general.

Venezuela has one of the healthiest political cultures in the western hemisphere, with the government pursuing a policy of maximum citizen participation. Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, recently said, of Chavez: "You can criticize Chavez on a lot things, but not on democracy." We never hear things like that here--because of our Corpo/fascist media--but South Americans know the truth. Chavez is a democrat with a small d!

So, how is Venezuela like Cuba? Do you mean, the Bushwhacks don't like governments that do hard bargaining with their oil cronies? That they hate democracy, social justice and cooperation and self-determination in South America? All true, but that doesn't make Venezuela "the next Cuba."

Bolivia just threw the U.S. Ambassador Philip Goldberg out of their country--for colluding with white separatists who want to carve the country up, secede from the Morales government and take the gas/oil resources with them. Rafael Correa, president of Ecuador, says there is a three-country Bushite plot--Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela--to instigate such civil wars, and grab the oil in Ecuador and Venezuela, as well as the gas and oil in Bolivia, via secessionist plots to set up fascist mini-states in control of the oil.

With such hostile behavior (and much, much more) by the Bushites, it is quite reasonable for Venezuela to seek allies in South America and the world. Brazil recently proposed a common defense force for South America, in conjunction with the newly forming South American "Common Market" (UNASUR), neither thing--neither the common defense nor the common market--includes the U.S. This is the common thinking now, among South American leaders--and increasingly among Central American leaders: How to create their own, self-determined economy, and protect themselves from further U.S. domination and interference.

Venezuela is not alone. It is surrounded by friends--with the exception of Colombia, a Bush Cartel client state--$6 BILLION in U.S.-Bush military funding; the U.S./Colombia bombed/raided in Ecuador this year, using U.S. high tech surveillance and 5 to 10 U.S. "smart bombs," to kill the FARC's chief hostage negotiator, Raul Reyes, and 24 other sleeping people, without benefit of trial. They almost started a war with Ecuador. Meanwhile, the Bushites have reconstituted the U.S. 4th Fleet, to roam off the Caribbean coast of Venezuela's richest oil state, Zulia. So the Venezuelan government has reason to be concerned, and so do its allies (most of South America).

It is our own government that poses the threat to peace in our hemisphere--not the Venezuelan government, nor Russia, nor anyone else. The South Americans are looking to the future "Common Market" with goals of social justice and self-determination, and are looking to defend themselves from the hostile intentions of the Bush junta and any future U.S. government in thrall to Exxon Mobil and other global corporate predators.

The democratic Venezuelan government invited Russia to engage in manuevers. They are a sovereign country. They have a right to do that. There is no client state relationship, as there was between Soviet Russia and Cuba during the Cold War. There is no threat to us. All the threat is coming from us. The Bushites are belligerent--proven mass murderers, ruthless and anti-democratic--desperate for oil. I don't see the analogy. Please explain.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Excellent reply!
:thumbsup:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. I tought it was already
I sincerely hope that el señor Chávez does not try any longer to become president for life. Apart from my distaste for presidential government in general and a firm belief that presidents should be limited in tenure, I am an American and don't want to be embarrassed watching the American CIA and state department of successive administrations of both parties fail at embargoes, coups and ham-handed assassination attempts for so long that el presidente Chávez becomes, as did Fidel Castro. the world's senior head of state.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. If the Republicans leave office..
what will the world look like? I wonder how many global corporations are still heavily invested in the U.S. Will all the 2%'ers head to Dubai? Will they strip the military bare and take the fully loaded Private Military Corporations with them? Is our trillion dollar deficit just laying there waiting for them? 8 years ago I would say this kind of thinking was bizarre. Now, nothing is bizarre. The more I know the less I understand.
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Nope. One reason why.
OIL. Venezuela has lots of it.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. No. Their situations are almost completely different.
Chavez has done more for the health and education of lower income people in Venezuela that anyone on their history. The jury is still out as to whether or not he turn out to be a great leader for his people.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Uh, "become"?!1

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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-08 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. Just Russia saying if you play in my yard I'll play in yours.
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