Deuteronomy 22:28 can settle this whole palin mess...

[Philosoraptor]

Deuteronomy 22:28-
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

[SpiralHawk]

1. Amen

or is it A men?

[demnan]

2. Well we're not sure she's a virgin though

are we?

[habitual]

4. aha, the escape clause! nice.

even the writers of scripture knew how to get themselves out of a sticky situation!

[SpiralHawk]

3. Doobie-ronomy 22:22: Thou shalt not allow AWOL preppies to steal the pResidency

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
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[mitchtv]

7. Poor thing

Enjoy your stay,

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. i can has tombstone please.

[Philosoraptor]

11. It's actually 'hypocricy', but then spelling istn' all taht impotent

[EOTE]

20. 'hypocrisy', actually. Third time's a charm :p

[Fly by night]

33. Since when? (We don't need no steenkin' misspellers around here.)

[yardwork]

58. dont' cassed asparagus on the por thing

[EOTE]

18. Dude, you should really learn to spell the word first.

You'd look like somewhat less of an idiot that way. And then, you might want to look into making an intelligible argument. Just sayin'.

[Indenturedebtor]

26. Hahahah freepers can never spell hahahaha

There are at least 10 glaringly obvious problems with your "argument", but I'm just going to highlight one of them because I don't want to overwhelm your brain.

Caucus votes weren't counted during the primary.

Oh hell, here's another one: Bush didn't win the electoral votes. According to the exit polls (which previous to 2000 were never significantly off), Kerry should have been President. America really is smart enough to not vote for Bush. Well most of America anyways :eyes:

[Lochloosa]

45. DU has spell check....

Damn, late again

[ismnotwasm]

47. Go away

[TahitiNut]

48. "hypocracy - n. - government by two-faced liars"

:shrug: It's the political ideology of temple money-changers.

[Az]

54. 6882? Is that the number of times you've tried getting in here?

Freepers never learn.

[yardwork]

57. Only one post. That must be some kind of record! Great work mods!

[Uncle Joe]

60. Hmm, if Bush loses the popular vote in spite of stealing some and wins the electoral vote because he

stole some, that makes him an illegitimate usurper and he has governed as such from day one.

[eShirl]

5. with the price of silver so high these days,

how much would that be in dollars?

[dems_rightnow]

9. My research says

a shekel had 16 grams of silver. 50 of them would be 800 grams.... or 28.1 ounces.

At the current price of $13.18 per oz....... I get about $370. For a virgin, it's a fair price. }(


Edited for crappy math.....

[Philosoraptor]

10. Not a bad deal, even by today's monetary standards

[baldguy]

39. Or one *really good* night with a professional.

[undeterred]

12. How much is 50 shekels in Alaska coinage- half a moose?

[Philosoraptor]

13. ...& two baby seals change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. 50 silver sheckels from the time that was written

to today, probably a couple million dollars

[POAS]

56. Whatever the amount it is backed by

the good faith and credit of the Palin family!

[undeterred]

14. Somehow I think this is a cleaned up version

of what the First Dude says to the Red Neck Teenager who got his daughter pregnant at 16 with an ancient cast...

[Cleita]

15. You have to marry your rapist and your father gets the

reparation money, not you? What's wrong here?

[Philosoraptor]

16. Yeah, but at least you can NEVER get divorced.

[Cleita]

17. But that isn't a good thing either.

You have to spend your life and have children with a person who committed a violent act on you? Evidently all the abuse of women that we see in these ME patriarchal societies seems to stem from the Bible.

[Indenturedebtor]

28. Sorry to piss on your parade but modern and even ancient Judaism has

a relatively superior record on women's rights. For example women have always had the right to seek a divorce, to own property, to own businesses, to work, etc. Is it, or was it the perfect paradigm of an equal and just society? Hell no, but don't lay that particular issue on us.

[Cleita]

34. Yeah, read the Bible and find out differently.

Those rights you mention actually came from the Sumerians, which the nomadic Hebrews came into contact with and probably incorporated into their rules. But in ancient times, it really was a toss up.

[Indenturedebtor]

43. How do you define ancient? And I would personally like to compare the Sumerian

rights with the Jewish ones, though it certainly sounds plausible.

The modern Ketubah has changed quite a bit over the last 100 years or so. But when compared to Medieval Europe, or Rome, etc, Jewish Women were treated far more equally. By modern standards the old testament leaves MUCH to be desired. But you can't judge ancient peoples by modern standards. Nor can you, as many fundies do, approach the world through ancient lenses, using only ancient rules.

If the Jewish Civilization had stopped developing with the Old Testament we would be a barbaric disgusting people... But starting in 200 CE Judaism formally, literarily began to develop itself through the Talmud.

For that matter dealing with the Torah, how many heroins are there compared to other ancient religious texts? Not so bad eh? :shrug:

The history of Judaic treatment of women is certainly not perfect, but in each era of the development of human civilization, and it's crawl from barbarism, I am proud of my forebearers humanity. Don't lay the current misogyny at the feet of our ancestors. There is no excuse for the mentally and ethically challenged of this world who seek to do the same thing when they use the Torah as an excuse to discriminate... they went a different way from the Talmud, and that is not our collective fault.

[Cleita]

46. The OT was written down from oral tradition during the Babylon

Captivity, which makes it after 586 BCE. Actually, European barbarian women had more equality than Roman women, some of them even going to war and fighting alongside their men. The Romans killed all of that before the Middle Ages. I'm not ragging on you about this but just want to set the record straight. As a former Roman Catholic I know how sexist they are as well. I once thought I might become Jewish but I got turned off when I went to Temple with a friend and the women had to stay up in a balcony. Other than that I really do love you guys and love the fact that you are really pretty liberal. I can't say that about the RCs.

[Indenturedebtor]

53. The Ketubah may have gone back further than that however

:shrug: someone had to invent it, I just don't know that it was the Babylonians.

I'm not an Orthodox Jew by any stretch, but in their defense the seperation in temple has to do with the fact that handling the religion in the home is largely the husband's job, while women are keepers of tradition. He is supposed to study the torah every day, and share it with the family. Most holidays take place in the home, so someone has to know all the prayers etc. However women have key rolls at most holidays, lighting the candles, etc. Also in ancient times they realised that sitting men and women together led to people thinking more about hooking up than what Temple is really about. Many progressive schools do the same thing, to good result.

Most conservative temples, and all reform congregations don't seperate things along those lines anymore. Girls get Bat Mitzvahs, study the Torah etc etc. But though imperfect there is much in our tradition, conservative or reform, that teaches us to revere women and to treat them as equals. Hell Golda was one of the first female leaders of the West in the Modern Era...

I just don't think that it's accurate to blame the misogyny in Western Society on the Torah. There is more to a culture than it's religious text, and by ancient standards the Torah was pretty progressive.

[Cleita]

55. I know you treat your women like "princesses" which is attractive to me, but

even that, putting women on a pedestal, is a form of sexism. Any way you are far away from the misogynism evident in Arab ME. I was just pointing out that some of what is in the Bible, both OT and NT in regard to women has for some reason or the other remained in some ME societies to this day, like stoning women for adultery for instance.

[Indenturedebtor]

59. Yes well cultures grow at different rates I'm afraid :(

Not so long ago here in the States it was legal to beat your wife if she spoke when you told her not to.

[Rabrrrrrr]

50. Actually, what it amounts to is the rapist must financially support the woman for all her life.

Since a non-virgin was not considered very valuable, by forcing the man to take her as his wife, the law was guaranteeing that the woman would be provided for, for all her days, because otherwise she might not ever find a man to take her as a wife. And an unmarried woman was pretty much relegated to poverty and a horrible life - probably prostitution or crime would be her only options - in that culture and time.

Not a perfect solution, especially by our standards, but for the time it was pretty progressive.

It's best to read Old Testament law in relation to what it replaced and in relation to the laws of the surrounding countries/areas; not through the lens of the end of 2500 years of political progress of modern day America.

[undeterred]

19. How do you know she was "seized"?

:shrug:

[trof]

21. What, he did it 'no hands'?

:rofl:

[undeterred]

22. "He did it"

talk about objectifying women :eyes:

[Pastiche423]

24. "it" = "fuck"

There's no objectifying going on there.

[Philosoraptor]

25. Where would we all be without fuck?

[undeterred]

29. So I see that 4000 years later, patriarchy is still the prevailing view

and the "liberal" males on DU don't even have the tiniest bit of discomfort with it. :scared:

[Pastiche423]

31. Whatever are you yammering on about?

Btw, I have a vagina.

[undeterred]

38. I thought you were Ted Nugent.

[Pastiche423]

40. Why?

[undeterred]

41. This makes no sense.

you answered a question I asked of someone else

[Pastiche423]

42. Are you going to answer my question or not?

Quit the bullshit!

[Pastiche423]

30. I would be speechless

[Fly by night]

35. Yeah. Joke those Rethugs if they can't take a fuck.

[Ignis]

37. You've never heard/used "do it" as a sexual euphemism?

I'm...unconvinced by that one. :)

But I am reminded of the King in History of the World Part I.

[Bucky]

52. Are you using "seized" as a euphemism for "climaxed"

Honestly, I'm sure that's none of our business.

[Philosoraptor]

23. ..............

[TrogL]

32. Ambiguous

Is that 30 silver shekels or 30 shekel's worth of silver?

[hootinholler]

36. But what if they are not found?

:shrug:

-Hoot

[Philosoraptor]

44. I'm not sure this kid is going to marry the palin girl or not.

[cobalt1999]

49. Depends on the outcome of the election.

If Palin is in office, they'll get married, he'll be forced to enlist and Palin will see that his ass is shipped to the worst part of Iraq.

[Rabrrrrrr]

51. Part of me would like to see McCain/Palin win just so the world could witness the worst of redneck

garbage Americans in the Vice President's house.

Imagine that little white trash and her redneck white trash shitbag hubbie and their white trash garbage children mucking about in Washington, DC.