If panhandling is illegal, why not proselytization?

[wickerwoman]

Since in many towns and cities, panhandling and busking are illegal because they are public nuisances, why not proselytization? It's equally annoying and impossible to get away from when you're waiting for the bus.

I'm not condoning the right of the Chinese government to take 300 bibles away from the three missionaries in Beijing, but I'm frankly not all that appalled at a policy which bans religious people from making public nuisances of themselves. It's not the same as restricting freedom of religious practice or belief... just restricting the freedom to shove your beliefs down the throats of other people in public places. I live in Shanghai... there are practicing churches and you can buy bibles at the bookstore. These jackasses at the airport aren't doing anything for freedom of religion in China.

So, if you think that China doesn't have the right to ban proselytization, do you think cities in the US have the right to ban panhandling?

[DCKit]

1. There's a difference? n/t

[JVS]

2. I don't think panhandling and busking are illegal because they're public nuisances, I think it's...

that when carried out in an aggressive manner the distinction between it and robbery begins to fade.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

35. "the distinction between it and robbery begins to fade"

....kinda like the Scientologists, eh?

[Dr. Strange]

47. Hold still.

Your thetans need adjusting.

[thunder rising]

3. For one thing, that thing "proselytization"? We aren't into that kinky stuff around here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Only for proselytutes.

[cliffordu]

7. rofl. Most excellent. I just stole that. ....

"I saw the proselytutes talking with the presstitutes..."

[ColbertWatcher]

14. LOL! Wonderful! I am going to start a page...

...for your word "Proselytutes" on the Truthiness Encyclopedia.

But, I would rather you did it, so you can get credit.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Feel free.

[noamnety]

5. you want to ban free speech? n/t

[wickerwoman]

6. it's already banned

if it's illegal to walk up to someone and ask them for money for yourself, why isn't it illegal to walk up to someone and ask them for money for God?

and for the record, I don't think it should be illegal to ban panhandling. I just think it's hypocritical to ban panhandling and not proselytizing.

[noamnety]

9. "proselytizing" = asking for money for god?

What dictionary are you looking at?

[Posteritatis]

21. Hey, I've seen people declare proselytizing to be genocide

This is tame by comparison.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

23. You're a Calvinist?

Genocide of the Tasmanian Aboriginals

Excerpt from Edward Wilson's, "On Human Nature", in which Wilson described the case of the genocide of the tasmanian Aboriginals.

The British settlers nearly completed a violent genocide on them (they hunted them like game), which caused some outcry. Then a well-intentioned Calvinist minister showed up to lead the remnant to a reservation and to teach them about Calvinism. but this abrupt revolution in their philosophies and way of life was more than they could handle spiritually, and they simply stopped reproducing and died out within one generation.
Wilson maintains that the Calvinist minister, despite the best of
CONSCIOUS intentions, UNCONSCIOUSLY was "acting under the compulsion" of another instinct-the tribal-agression instinct-and was REALLY there to finish the genocide his own kind had begun, only by politically acceptable (and therefore most effective) means.

[Posteritatis]

42. Riiiiight, therefore all attempts at proselytizing are *exactly* the same!

:sarcasm:

[asteroid2003QQ47]

52. Enlighten us as to how you would know the difference if...

the unconcious intent was NOT the same.
Either you function at a much higher elevation than the rest of us
or you flunked Evolutionary Psych. 101.
Let me see, it's a tough choice but I think I'll go with the latter option. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[elshiva]

13. Not all proselytizing is about asking for money.

All of my contact with Jehovah's Witnesses is them coming to the door and giving me their magazines for free. They never asked for money, ever. I don't agree with what they believe, but I think they are within their rights.

[Skittles]

16. yes

when I mentioned to one of them who knocked at noon that I sleep until 3PM, they always knock now around 4PM. They are always polite and well-mannered.

[elshiva]

18. Yes, they are polite. Whenever, I'm alone and I say I don't

want to hear it, they go away. They might quote a short Bible verse, but then they go...

[asteroid2003QQ47]

22. All they want is your brain and you're...

okay with that!?

[malaise]

26. All I'll say is that the proslytutes better avoid me

I say no thank you only once - approach me a second time and expect an audible Fuck Off!

[Beregond2]

8. If you can't see the difference between

someone asking you for something and someone offering you something, I don't know what to say. Yes, proseletyzers are annoying, but they are easily deterred with the words: "No, thank you." Or is that too much trouble?

[Hippo_Tron]

11. In my experience panhandlers are also easily deterred with words as well

When I have some change or a dollar to spare I generally try to help them out. But if I don't I simply say "Sorry I don't have anything" and they don't continue to ask.

[Zhade]

10. Very interesting comparison!

I don't think panhandling should be illegal, first off.

As for the p-word, I think believers have a right to express themselves in public without invading another's personal space. So, no forcing pamphlets into someone's hands, and no coming onto private property to ring bells and preach.

I think the act of christ-pimping (let's face it, we're talking about mostly christians who do this - I've never met any other kind) is arrogant and foolish to the hilt, considering the utter lack of evidence to bolster their arguments, but it shouldn't be illegal if it doesn't violate another's right to privacy or any other right.

[Hekate]

12. It is Constitutionally protected free speech & freedom of religion. I'm kind of appalled at...

... your suggestion.

The Constitution protects behavior that other people may find annoying, including this.

Just say "No thank you" and shut the door, for pete's sake! Or say "No thank you" and keep walking. How hard is that?

Hekate

[wickerwoman]

17. You've missed the point.

As I said in post 6, I don't think panhandling (or proselytizing) should be illegal. But I don't see how you can justify banning one but not the other. It is illegal to panhandle and busk in many cities and towns in America. For all the posters in the other thread who feel really indignant about China confiscating bibles from missionaries at the Olympic games because it denies freedom of speech, I'm wondering what they're doing about all the cities in the US that ban panhandling and other "public nuisances" like playing loud music late at night or being drunk (but not aggressive) in public. The constitution may protect "annoying behavior" but most American cities has numerous statutes that don't uphold that interpretation. I'm a lot more annoyed by someone ringing my doorbell and pushing a load of crap on me than by someone playing the violin for change in the subway station. But one of those people is likely to be arrested or moved on by the police and the other one isn't. And I think that's crappy and hypocritical. That's my point.

[AllentownJake]

15. Panhandling isn't expliciting protected by the Constitution nor was it

one of Roosevelts 4 freedoms.

[undergroundpanther]

19. I get triggered by proselytizers

Once they circled me in against a wall while I was waiting to meet friends there..And I held back my reactions as long as I could,The anger and hate and anxiety was overwhelming.So I warned them to get away from me 4 times,louder and fiercer each time..Then they tried to touch me(some kind of healing shit I think) and that was it.I lost it.I started biting clawing and punching them.

My friends arrived at that time,unbeknown to me,because I was freaking out..Alex pulled me off the fundie assholes ..and he did his best to help me chill out. The other people (all of us are punk freaks)I was meeting up with, grabbed and dragged the fundies away from where I was by their hair and shirts,screamed at them,then let them go and chased them across the street and out of the park whipping out their chains and boot knives telling them to stay the FUCK away or they'd fucking curb stomp'em. We all went into a nearby pub and I got some crab soup to try to ground myself(spicy).I was shaking for a half hour.And I got the reactive depression shit two days later.The whole incident was not longer than 10 minutes,I am glad the cops didn't see this get involved because the town tends to be bigoted against punks,goths and freaks.They'd probably assume I started it.Christians get too much of a free pass by cops or security when they act like assholes.
PSTD sucks.
But I am glad I tell my friends about my issues because they might not understand why I react to certain things or do things if I didn't tell them..

Christians that proselytize are sometimes some of the most callous overbearing selfish oblivious assholes I have ever seen.
I have been accosted by proselytizers on the street a few times.Mostly they respect my boundaries tho.If they understand NO and respect that,fine.. But it has happened repeatedly that they don't respect my wish to be left alone. After I tell them to leave me alone 3 or 4 times,it is usually a full on trigger by then, and if they keep on pushing me ,I think they deserve whatever bruisings they get from us.

Some proselytizers are just narcissistic bully aggressors who have a persecution complex and the belief system is a tool for them to get away with being an asshole in public.Some christians are so narcissistic and obsessed they can't imagine WHY someone would be a maltheist that legitimately HATES their bully god and despises that sickening religion and does not think jesus is a nice guy at all,and when christians get in my face I just find I hate their god even more.Sometimes I wish we lived in a world without organized religions..
As for panhandlers,If I got some to spare I give it.I don't care if they use it for booze or whatever.Being on the street sucks,they can't rest because cops constantly harass homeless people to move them. Most people do not GET how HARD it is to live on the streets.People are bigoted as shit to homeless people,young or old.I know some gutter punks and they are homeless because their parents are abusive assholes.Alot of younger people leave abusive homes,and wind up on the street.Some are addicts some not,some become addicts because of the stress of being on the street.
I give to panhandlers If I have it, because they asked.

I had to panhandle for bus fare once to get home.I was very thankful for those folks that gave me change until it added up and I got home.

You never know why they ask.
alot of people assume the worst.It gets me pissed off seeing comfortable people treat desperate people like shit.And the proselytizers never give to anyone.They just push their fucking religion,they are as kind and compassionate to suffering people as crack dealers are to addicts with no money going through withdrawal..

[SpookyCat]

54. You've got me beat my friend.

I once got rid of an over zealous Mormon by simply asking him if he wanted to see god right. Now!

Worked like a charm.

No excuse for this level of invasion, none at all. Ask me, I say no thanks the first, and only the first time.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DailyGrind51]

24. Because "panhandling" is easier to spell, and say without spitting!

[LanternWaste]

25. Secular as well as religious proselytization?

I imagine that would apply to political door to door canvassing, political phone calls, handing out fliers endorsing or condemning one candidate or another-- as it's simply another form of "restricting the freedom to shove your beliefs down the throats of other people in public places."

Other than a possible annoyance factor, I really don't see a precise and relevant difference between shoving religion down someone's throat and shoving politics down someone's throat ("It's equally annoying and impossible to get away from when you're waiting for the bus.")... :shrug:

[TexasObserver]

27. One is considered free speech, and one isn't.

The panhandler is only seeking money. He isn't advocating. If he put up a sign that said "Praise Jebus," with a cup to the side, he'd probably be OK.

That's our country. Different country, different rules. Hell, there's a guy in downtown Toronto who has been living on the same grate from years.

[DailyGrind51]

28. Republicans believe that "money" = "speech"?

Remember their opposition to campaign finance reform?

[TexasObserver]

29. true, but that's the ability to SPEND money as an expression of free speech

Not to collect money as an expression of free speech.

It's a stupid rationale to defeat campaign finance laws, which is why the Rs use it!

[theboss]

30. I've never had a street peacher ask me for money

And I don't think street peachers drive away customers from businesses.

[eShirl]

39. I know I used to cross the street to avoid the 2 people always outside the Scientology building

on Hollywood boulevard. Couldn't walk by on the sidewalk without being bugged.

[theboss]

43. They are trying to recruit

The average street preacher is not a recruiter necessarily. Big difference.

[AngryAmish]

31. Time, place and manner

The First Amendment allows the government to regulate the time, place and manner of speech. So no standing in the street, at 3 am with a megaphone preaching. You will be arrested.

We can assemble and meet in the US. In China, not so much. The constitution is different there.

The interesting question is why.

NOw I see from the other thread you fancy yourself an old China hand. As such you must realize that the current government is as much of a dynasty as there has been in China since the Yellow Emperor. So why is religion controlled by the govt there? For the same reason as they don't like any independent groups. They might form the core of a rebellion against the government, there would be a gigantic civil war again which would end with the massacre of the people in the Party, as opposed to letting them run things and get all the privileges. Many of the rebellions over history have a religious element and so that is kept locked down. Boxer Rebellion is only the most recent.

[nichomachus]

36. Try it

>>>We can assemble and meet in the US.

You haven't been paying attention for the last eight years, have you. Theoretically, you have this right. However, you can do it only when and where the junta says you can.

[AngryAmish]

37. I am not sure I understand what you mean

You have been prevented from renting a hall recently by the federal government? How so?

[nichomachus]

48. I haven't tried to rent a hall

Please educate yourself on the fate of groups that have tried to protest and were beaten and shot with rubber bullets. Read up on "First Amendment Zones" that keep protesters away from Bush and his adoring TV cameras. Read about the efforts during the last GOP convention where those who tried to protest were rounded up and arrested on spurious charges and held on open piers in squalid conditions.

Here's a video you should watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lyaMrS0hzk

You are allowed to assemble and protest only where they say you can. Maybe you can rent a hall -- but that, of course, isn't the point. You are not allowed yo do it in public.

[wickerwoman]

55. Er...

I didn't post in the other thread so I'm not sure what you're referring to. I've lived in China for about five years which I guess makes me a relatively "old China hand". As I said in my original post, I don't support restrictions on religious belief or practice (although I think pagans have a lot more to complain about in China than Christians who are at least allowed a state-supervised form of worship.) Obviously it's about control and the suppression of rebellion... when was that ever in dispute?

My point wasn't actually about China. I was drawing a distinction between religious practice and belief and proselytization of the public nuisance kind often practiced by groups like Mormons, Hare Krishnas and Evangelical Christians. Since we do, obviously, limit free speech in terms of time, place and manner, why, in the US, is this particular form of nuisance speech much less carefully regulated than other forms of nuisance speech and public disturbance?

[raccoon]

33. One more puts this on Greatest, CMON! Rec'd. nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. Your premise is faulty

Cities cannot ban panhandling. The can limit it in certain areas, but a blanket ban will not hold up in court.

[Mabus]

38. I've called the cops on proselytizers

I called the police and asked them if the people coming by my house were required to have a solicitation license. The cops told me no because they aren't soliciting anything. I asked for a clarification and was told that because people who proselytize aren't asking for anything of value that they aren't required to get a solicitation license. I told them that the proselytizers were asking for something of value from me (at least in their eyes), i.e. my soul and in return I was to sign up for their beliefs. Therefore, they were wanting to make a bargain with me. They sent a cop out and had a talk with the proselytizers and they stayed away from my house for almost 18 months.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. It hurts my feeling to pay for about a dozen cable TV chanels...

that have that bullshit on them 24/7!

[Mabus]

44. Look on the bright side

They're off the streets. Both the viewer and the broadcasters.

On the downside, the broadcasters use their channels to shake down people who don't know any better.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. Very annoying. Ditto for the shopping networks, too

x(

[seabeyond]

40. they cant shove it down if you dont open your mouth for it. i dont have issue with either

group in public. and i would fight for boths rights. because one is being denied, i ownt make two wrongs..... thinking there could be a right

this is a world we share.

[AngryOldDem]

45. At least most panhandlers don't cause a litter problem.

When I was in college I had to take a bus to campus that I caught in the center of downtown, on a public square. Almost everyday there was one person handing out tracts and trying pinhole people into impromptu theological discussions about where they were headed in the afterlife. Part of his schtick were badly drawn pamphlets, most of which were dropped on the ground immediately after he would hand them out. From a distance it looked like the square was covered by an inch of snow.

And, as they do arrest panhandlers and other homeless for such heinous crimes as littering and jaywalking. I say that proselytizers deserve no less consideration.

[timtom]

46. Including political proselytizing?

[Dreamer Tatum]

"Impeach-mints," anyone?

Some deeply-held values are more acceptable than others, I guess.

[Dreamer Tatum]

50. "Impeach-mints," anyone?

Some deeply-held values are more acceptable than others, I guess.

[timtom]

51. well said.

[Iggo]

53. I don't know.

Seems like they got it backwards.

I love panhandlers and give them money every time.

I hate proselytizers and give them shit 'til they leave me alone.

Go figure...

[Taverner]

56. Agreed

[Cleita]

57. That's because the homeless have less rights than any one else with more

money. All those annoying phone calls trying to sell you stuff also would come under the umbrella of panhandling to me, but they are protected by the law.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

58. So then all panhandlers need to do is preface their request with a quick homily on

the Rich Man and Lazarus or perhaps even the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

So then the following dichtomy fades: proselytizers want to give you something while panhandlers are asking for something. By prefacing their request with one of these two parables, then the panhandler has in fact offered the person something: salvation, the Kingdom of God ("When did we see you, Master?" "Whatever you did unto the least of me . . .").

Loopholes abound!!!!!!!