The difference between the Fundamentalists and the Truly "Religious."

[Tyler Durden]

There is a lot of hatred here for the Religious Fundamentalists. I say, rightly so, because they masquerade (consciously or unconsciously) as Truly Religious. Well, they're not.

They're scared.

FAITH is an act of trust, and scared people don't trust anything; that is what the Fundamentalists really are: Scared.

I was involved until the age of reason with the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. They spend a lot of time "reasoning" why they believe the way they do. Luther's Small Catechism is chock full of verse followed by "What does this mean?" and an explanation. I think I'm very grateful for that, as it kept me from following my fear into fanaticism: the TRUE locus of Fundamentalism of all stripes.

The belief system of all Fundamentalists can be summed up this way: "I am Right, my belief is the only Correct one, everyone else is Wrong, therefore they are Damned if they don't convert to the way I believe, and if they are damned then their beliefs are not to be followed by anyone: ALL must follow my beliefs." But what is the cornerstone of every true fanatic point of view?

FEAR.

"What happens if I'M the one who is Wrong? If I'm not worshiping the RIGHT 'god,' then am I damned? If there is no 'god' then is there no eternal life and when I die I'm just DEAD??"

And the worst one of all:

"If everyone is allowed to believe as they wish and if I permit this, then I validate their views, and THERE IS A CHANCE I MAY BE WRONG." The Fundamentalist cannot tolerate this.

Fundamentalists, in their own point of view as a protective mechanism for their psychological survival, are NEVER WRONG. Who hasn't seen a bumper sticker that says "God Said It, I Believe It, That Settles It"? That is the crux of their belief system: The pseudo-faith that they, and only they are right, and anything else is irrelevant. They MUST be correct, their path the only true path.
That's not Faith, it's Fanaticism, and that is a neurosis, not a religious experience.

Am I a neurotic? Sure. I have at least two documented phobias, and they are not rational. But is it rational for you to have to support my fears? Of course not. If I build a Religion around my phobias, are you required to attend my church and tithe to my cause? Absurd. Yet that is the philosophy of the Fundamentalist, defined by their belief system, and supported by their fears, not faith.

"You must believe as I do, or I MAY BE WRONG." And the other angle "My Faith/Coping Mechanism/belief structure is VALID because I SAY SO, and you may not question it, and thereby invalidate it." There is nothing more frightening to the neurotic, indeed anyone, than the challenging of their defense mechanism, because in their view, no rational being interrupts a perfectly good defense mechanism.

Some have said that the best way to react to this is with humor: nothing could be further from the truth. Humor is in a psychological sense, the result of an interrupted defense mechanism and its replacement with a method to diminish the fear. The response of the Fundamentalist to humor related to their belief system is Strong and intensely Negative: "How DARE they...I am OFFENDED..." are not responses of the person who is reacting out of FAITH. That person's viewpoint is not shaken or challenged by the "attack" that is envisioned by the person who is reacting out of FEAR. On the contrary; while the person of FAITH may not exactly join in the guffaw, they might even give an indulgent chuckle.

All of the major religious texts preach tolerance for other belief systems: it is in the Interpretation by the ranking clergy and religious organizations seeking to explain (or in worst case, justify their own existence) that we see the failures of the belief systems to co-exist peacefully. That is where the problem is. As people who espouse the concept of a tolerant, secular state, we cannot and must not validate the point of view of the Religious Fanatic: The Fundamentalist. Down that road lies Torquemada, the Inquisition, and the new Dark Ages.

[newfie11]

1. AMEN

[noel711]

2. Well done Tyler!

When I read the title of the thread, my first response was: "Uh oh!"

But you nailed it!

Sadly, the fundies are brainwashed, and have no ability to reason
their way out of a paper bag. It's easy to be brainwashed,
then you don't have to do the heavy lifting of thinking,
and accepting beliefs that differ from yours!


I have my issues with the Missouri Synod over certain issues,
but I must admit Luther was the catalyst to breaking down the walls
of 'my way or the highway' theology.. Not that he was perfect either,
I'm just sayin'....

[Cassandra]

3. The attraction for fundamentalists is not belief...

but authoritarian control. These are people who crave being told what to do and find change and choice frightening.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Hit the nail on the head!

These people are frightened to think for themselves, and want to have someone else make them feel safe and secure.

[cobalt1999]

6. Yes and No.

I agree the attraction is authoritarian control. However, they want to be the ones in control. They want to dictate right from wrong behaviors. They want to enforce their moral code and beliefs on others.

The truly religious believe quietly without trying to convert others. Fundamentalists want control.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. Yes, it's that same fear operating

The fear makes them crave authority, and crave a belief system that relies on absolutes- so they can be sure they are absolutely right as long as they do as they're told.

[Tyler Durden]

13. And what is the desire for Authoritarian Control?

Just a reaction to fear. Example? TERRATERRATERRA/Homeland Security.

[DailyGrind51]

37. Thank you!

My point, on a previous thread related to this issue was that the term "fundamentalist" can be applied to any form of doctrinaire or dogmatic belief, not necessarily "religious". One need only to listen to Thom Hartmann's frequent guests from the CATO Institute to know there are "fundamentalist" libertarians willing to ignore "the common good" to adhere "religiously" to the Friedmanesque dogma of an unfettered "free market".

[TahitiNut]

41. People who cannot control their own fears and behavior attempt to control others.

Control Freaks.

[Cassandra]

42. Authoritarian followers and leaders.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Above is my favorite link location for understanding this bunch.

[Tyler Durden]

48. I don't believe you, Daughter of Priam!!!

That's a Homeric joke, by the way!

[Cassandra]

51. Got it.

Not my name, just my life experience.

[bdf]

70. Another entry in my browser's bookmarks (n/t)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Think you said it well

I have fundamentalist relatives, and, as a child, they would try to convert me--but my mom showed me the fallacy in their arguments. I think that the fundies have tainted the word "religion" for many, and those who are ecumenically minded often prefer the term "spiritual". I know that personally I have attended worship services with Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, Native Americans, and others, and we all got along and shared the joy of fellowship. To me, that is what religion is about.

[Tyler Durden]

16. I'm an Atheist, but I love the Islamic prayers.

I have been privileged to be invited to participate in prayers at a joint interfaith service by a young devout Muslim woman who my SO and I were having a wonderful discussion with.

[DailyGrind51]

50. I am a Catholic, but attended the Blue Mosque in Konya, Turkey.

[EstimatedProphet]

7. Fundamentalists are often Christ addicts

I have firsthand experience with this - my sister was a drug addict until she gave up drugs and became a Christ addict. It is very much like what you say about no consideration for anything other than their way of thinking, and there's a reason for that: if they slp, and start to question their beliefs, they are afraid they will go right back to where they came from - drugs, alcohol, etc. That's part of why it is there's so many of them that talk about how they were saved from the evil things of the world. they weren't really saved at all, they just traded one addiction for another. In talking with my sister and her friends, when they talk about drugs and alcohol and other frowned-upon things they automatically jump to the conclusion that there is only 2 possible states - either total abstinence or addiction. That's because, for them, that's all there is, and they can't get that other people might not have that problem. For them, the problem is inherent in the substance. They carry that black/white addictive thinking into their religion.

[patrice]

9. I like that "black/white addictive thinking"! You're right; it is physically addictive.

Self-brainwashing. Auto-reinforcing religious response patterns.

[YOY]

14. I'd like to think of them as the after results of those party people who ruined the party

The ones who got drunk and started a fight or brought the coke to a weed and beer party and snorted it in the bathroom and later started f***ing some person they just met in the party hosts' bedroom. Now they've "recovered" (read substituted one addiction for another) and think that everyone at the party had the same personality defects they have.

You know. Assholes.

A friend of mine recovered from achohol addiction recently with some strong help from family, friends, and HIMSELF. I told him that I couldnt be prouder. I couldn't.

[EstimatedProphet]

31. That's it exactly

If they truly recover, then they won't have a need for an addiction. Switching to Christianity for their fix may not be as physically damaging, but it's not an emotional improvement either. I listen to my sister talk about how she has given herself to Christ, and she takes no pride in anything she accomplishes - including founding her own church - because she honestly believes she's not responsible for any of it. If that is the case, then what's the point? Why even bother living life, if it's being lived for you?

[Dogtown]

21. Absolutely, EP

Gary Bussey is a well-known example of switching addictions.

Those I've known that have taken that path are JUST as destructive in the replacement-addiction as they were in their 1st, but are *impervious* to intervention.

[patrice]

8. What some people worship is their OWN idea of what "God" is.There's an

organic, physical response, sets of neurological and hormonal patterns that affect heart-rate, breathing and stuff like that. These physical responses can be attached to mental activity and they are feedback loops, so they are self-reinforcing. I'm afraid this is what many people are mistaking for "the Holy Spirit". Unfortunately, under the right conditions, it's just a hop-skip-and-a-jump from what I've just sketched to psychosis.

It's ironic that this kind of religious habit actually "kills" God, by reducing God to something entirely contained within the covers of a certain book and, hence, within the conceptual world of our OWN minds. It's like Nietzsche said: God is dead and we killed him.

End-timers should look to themselves. They are the Anti-Christ.

[Dorian Gray]

10. Wow

Interesting reading, and I agree with you on a lot of this. (I think that I've disagreed with your POVs regarding religion in the past.)

[JerseygirlCT]

11. Yes indeed. nt

[Philosoraptor]

15. I like the way you think.

[Tyler Durden]

17. The feeling has been mutual. nt

[YOY]

18. One might say that "fear" is the constant motive of the "oh so brave" right wing in the first place.

At least the followers. It's the MO for their leaders.

[Tyler Durden]

19. The "Pharisees" of the world invented "Cannon Fodder."

Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching as to War.

No offense intended toward any rational Christians in the audience.

[YOY]

20. The term "Christian Soldier" is a complete oxymoron.

When I was in Catholic school and someone mentioned using it in a service I expressed my disgust. Several others did as well. My parting shot was that if I wanted to be a Baptist I would convert.

[DailyGrind51]

56. During the Roman persecution, the Christians would allow themselves to be hacked to death in the

Arena, rather than pick up swords to fight back. Then Emperor Constantine made it Rome's "state religion" and the wrong people saw it as a venue for political power rather than a message of inner peace and love for all creatures.

[BlooInBloo]

22. Golly. One sect railing against another. How unique.

[patrice]

23. Right. And you, of course, function entirely without conceptual categories at all.

[BlooInBloo]

24. I'm not even gonna bother getting into a discussion of the First Critique with a DUer.

[Tyler Durden]

26. then why did you bother in the first place?

This is not a condemnation of Religion or Faith, but the neurotic and delusional path that states "I am right, and all else is wrong."

[patrice]

30. Good question. It appears as though some have their own idols to worship.

[YOY]

34. Here's mine!

He's the dreamiest! Non?

[patrice]

35. Is that a young Billy Idol? I always thought he had a Very Sexy voice.

Whatever happened to him?

...................

Not Billy Idol?

Then I have to say, I need more to go on in re "dreamy". Sorry! if that's a disappointment. Just the way I am now, getting very concrete in my old age.

[YOY]

36. He's still around. But worshiping Billy Idol is better than worshiping this Idol:

Pile of shit that one is...

[Tyler Durden]

25. How in Hell do you draw that conclusion?

Are all Fundamentalists Christians, or Baptists, or Catholics?

What about Islamic Fundamentalists? or Christian Identity Fundamentalists? According to the Dalai Llama, there are even BUDDHIST Fundamentalists.

Fundamentalism is not a "SECT," it is a phenomenon which teaches the follower that their belief is correct, and all others wrong, therefore disposable.

Perhaps DELUSIONAL is a better word:


de·lu·sion
Pronunciation:
\di-ˈlü-zhən, dē-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin delusion-, delusio, from deludere
Date: 15th century

1: the act of deluding : the state of being deluded
2 a: something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs
— de·lu·sion·al adjective
— de·lu·sion·ary adjective

synonyms
delusion, illusion, hallucination, mirage mean something that is believed to be true or real but that is actually false or unreal. delusion implies an inability to distinguish between what is real and what only seems to be real, often as the result of a disordered state of mind <delusions of persecution>. illusion implies a false ascribing of reality based on what one sees or imagines <an illusion of safety>. hallucination implies impressions that are the product of disordered senses, as because of mental illness or drugs <suffered from terrifying hallucinations>. mirage in its extended sense applies to an illusory vision, dream, hope, or aim <claimed a balanced budget is a mirage>.

[BlooInBloo]

27. Plz quote where I said "fundamentalism is a sect". kkthx.

[Tyler Durden]

32. "Golly. One sect railing against another."

Care to amplify that? I put no "faith" above or against another in my OP. I'm still trying to figure your comment out, if that's not what you meant.

[DailyGrind51]

28. Thank you very much, Tyler!

The religious fundamentalists of today are the Pharisees of Jesus' time, observing the letter of Mosaic law, while ignoring the spirit in which the law was written. Remember when the Pharisees were criticizing Jesus for healing the sick on the Sabbath and Jesus turned their argument back on them by asking what they would do if their oxen got stuck in the marsh on the Sabbath, wait until the next day, permitting it to die, or violate "The Law" by pulling it out?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Fear is definitely at the root of the authoritarian mindset

Just look at responses to discussions of the Bush administration's attacks on civil liberties: "But they're protecting us from terrorism."

I suppose just about everyone has relatives who have become fundamentalists these days. I certainly do, and I find them to be rigid in every area of their lives.

On the control issues, I think that it's true that fundamentalists (whether religious or political or any other kind) submit to an authority figure out of fear. Once they're in such an environment, the leadership reinforce obedience by controlling what the participants hear, see, and read. They also arm them with a set of stock responses to objections.

A few years ago, PBS did a series on fundamentalism, and one scene showed a guest speaker at a fundie church actually drilling the congregation on how to talk to a proponent of evolution. He sounded exactly like my mother, the former kindergarten teacher, giving safety lessons to her class, providing the congregation with a set of responses and then asking them to repeat them back to him in unison.

Now of course, unless a fundamentalist goes and lives in an enclave somewhere, he is going to run into people who think differently. This sets off alarm bells in their heads, especially if the people who think differently are healthy and happy. Having been taught that everyone outside the cult is Wrong and that true happiness lies only in the cult, he is in danger of Exploding Head Syndrome. The only way he can deal with it is to decide that the people who think differently are evil (they're happy because they enjoy being wrong) or deluded (they don't know how miserable they are). That's where the attempt to control other people comes in.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

33. BINGO FOR YOU

[Gonzo Gardener]

38. Obscuring clouds between heaven 'n earth parted, a chorus of angels sang...

rays of golden light shone down upon the FEARFUL masses, and then HE, Tyler Durden, spoke!

:loveya:

[Tyler Durden]

45. Pshaw.

Sometimes, someone has to say the things that everyone else is just dodging.

[tannybogus]

39. My Mama called me Doubting Thomas.

I questioned everything and not just religion. I still do. I am convinced that "Mad" magazine had a role in the way a whole generation looked at society. My parents thought it was just another comic book. Little did they know that it was honing my skepticism and sarcasm. My cousins and I all had to go to church. When we were old enough to be on our own, we have never darkened that door again except for weddings and funerals. Gonna go to hell.

[Bill McBlueState]

40. Is there a better phrase than "truly religious"?

For Christian fundamentalists not to be religious, you have to invent an unusual definition for "religious."

Your post seems to argue that fundamentalists do not have the strong faith they claim to have, and that the faith of non-fundamentalists is more genuine. Maybe you could talk about the Fundamentalists versus the Truly Faithful.

[Tyler Durden]

46. Either definition works well for me....

As an atheist observing a sociological phenomenon, I am "Faith Impaired."

Don't get me wrong...I'd just as soon have faith dripping out my ears: I believe what I CAN. Would that I could believe what I CANNOT.

Sure would help with my linked phobia: Fear of the Dark, Fear of Death.

[shadowknows69]

43. Great piece TD

K+R.

[Tyler Durden]

60. Enjoy it while they last....

I think I'm on the pizza list.

[knitter4democracy]

44. Exactly right--even for evangelicals, too.

I grew up in the Church of the Nazarene, a fairly conservative evangelical church. There's a lot of fear there, too, though it's more of the personal variety. There's a lot of thinking along the lines of: "I think I'm saved, but am I really? What I was just thinking the church says is sin, so if I'm that sinful, am I really saved? I had that time down at the altar, and I know what I decided then, but what if I was wrong, what if it was all just emotions? I need to pray harder, I need to be better, I need to stop sinning because what if I'm not really the Christian I think I am?"

They're scared of what their bodies want to do, what their minds think when the lights are off and no one else is around, and what their hearts tell them to do. They're scared everyone else will find out, and they're scared that, deep down, their faith won't hold up under pressure. I saw that fear in every church service, every college chapel service, and every time we had honest talks at night at college and at camp or on mission trips.

[Tyler Durden]

47. Always thought fear was a lousy substitute for faith.

We all fear, it is in our nature, but I have seen the fearless nature of the TRULY Faith Filled (God faith or otherwise) over the course of my life, and one cannot help but be amazed at them.

[knitter4democracy]

65. I still deal with it sometimes.

I'm working harder on just letting go of all that fear, but after all those years in that church, it's pretty hard.

[RedLetterRev]

49. I left LCMS a long time ago and traded "religion" in favor of

simple faith. I don't feel the need to qualify The Greater or limit it, nor to mouth set formulae at certain times and on certain days. I do think the Lutherans managed to give me some jewels that I keep with me, like that one can and does remain in a constant state of prayer. It's simple enough to say "thanks" for the little things that come along all the time, without having to name to whom your saying thanks. My faith says someone will catch it and Grok what I mean. My gratitude for being alive and having the love of my life still by my side after all we've been through together is enormous. We each quietly worship in our own ways; we don't need a building to do it in, we perceive different aspects of Something Greater, but we perceive that somehow it's the same. As much as we're together now, we're certain we'll be together after we cross the Rainbow Bridge.

Or something like that. 'S'all good.

Losing religion, for me, was exactly losing fear, like the OP said; at once, I gained freedom. And absolute peace. Folks can worship (or not) in their own ways and I'm absolutely not threatened. Rather, I think the diversity isn't just a Good Thing™, it's necessary for a healthy being, a healthy community, a healthy nation, and a healthy world.

If you feed your body just one thing all the time, you'll sicken and eventually die. Feed the mind just one thing all the time, the same thing will happen. Perhaps it's simplistic logic on my part (bud I don' t'ink toe), but I get the feeling that a healthy soul needs a little shakin' up now and again, too.

Thanks, Tyler, for putting it out on the table. If we don't talk about it with calmness, some love and open-mindedness, indeed down that road lies nothing but the darkness that rigidity of all sorts has in store for all of us.

[patrice]

53. Beautifully put!

And very similar to my experience/understanding coming out of the RC church.

I think now of being 50:50, affirming what is valid in "opposed" phenomena as much as possible and rejecting what is invalid in "opposed" phenomena as much as possible. Finding that balance point actually opens the mind to perceive that which is both and neither of whatever constructs one is focused on.

[SidneyCarton]

52. Good Points.

If you have a moment, read this, we may think somewhat along the same lines...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x179106

Fair warning, it's long, I may have inadvertently written the longest OP in the history of the R/T forum.

[SidDithers]

54. I can't remember. Are the "Truly Religious"..

the ones with or without the sugar on their porridge?

Sid

[northernsoul]

67. Won't somebody PLEASE think about the True Scotsmen!

good one, Sid.

[Chovexani]

55. Now that is some real talk.

It's also important to note that Fundamentalism is very much a mindset, and it transcends religion. As a former evangelical Christian turned Pagan (though I was never really what you could call fundie--I question things too much!) I have seen many, many fundies who gave up Christianity bring the fundie mindset into whichever belief system they ended up in, whether it was Paganism, secular humanism, you name it. It's like a mental illness.

It's especially maddening to see it creep into Paganism (and it very much has, at least here in the States) because most Pagan religions are decidedly about the individual coming to his/her own path, constantly questioning and evaluating ideas and practices to see if they make sense for them. The Pagan family of traditions is very much about valuing experience over dogma, but with fundies they can never really get past that. They tend to want to be spoon fed spirituality, when in most Pagan traditions (Wicca in particular), the idea is that you are your own priest/ess. They want to bring that top down model to any religion they end up in. It's because fundies are addicted to the passive consumerist form of "spirituality" in which someone else does all the thinking for them and has figured out all the icky, messy questions. It's "safe".

Another awesome post, my friend.

[Tyler Durden]

58. Thank you.

Think I'll stick to stuff like this when I post on DU.

Gets me into much less trouble.

[knitter4democracy]

66. That's a really good point.

We have an altar server in our church that grew up Baptist, and he's basically an Orthodox version of a Baptist. He's more rule-oriented than any priest I've ever known, and most of us just roll our eyes and let him go on and on. There have been a couple of times that my husband or I have wanted to let him have it (especially when he got so horrible one Sunday about our son and a little spill of Communion on his outfit), but we manage to restrain ourselves in the name of peace.

You know, I think you're right--they just take whatever their mindset is wherever they go.

[Lilith Velkor]

72. That phenomenon made me a Solitary Witch.

Ironically enough, being accused of cursing people led me to learn how. I'm kind of good at it.

I don't do it often, because cursing *at* people usually suffices. :)

:hug: <-- for Chovexani

:hug: <-- for Tyler Durden

The rest of you better watch it! :evilgrin:

[Chovexani]

74. Hee, me too.

Solitary for going on 10 years, and my few forays into group work here and there have only reinforced why I'm solitary by choice. I can't deal with the fluff and the laziness. Also whatever happened to "you have to know how to hex in order to heal"? :P

I got over my squeamishness about flinging mojo other than the love and light flavor real quick. Mostly because it seems to be my path in life to open cans of magical whoop ass on people acting a fool. "No really, it's okay, hex his ass. In fact I'm COMMANDING YOU BECAUSE HE IS A DOUCHE" tends to be what my deities tell me. In more poetic language of course. :evilgrin:

[ismnotwasm]

57. Honestly?

I usually like Liberal Christians--they can get pretty radical, can engage in productive feminist arguments with mainstream Muslims, and have gotten a deep picture of history and culture and faith from Liberal Jews.

I don't believe in a actual Deity or Deities, any of that. It doesn't make sense to me, my brain simply doesn't work that way.

Which gives me no excuse to hate on people of faith, especially the Liberal ones.

Fundamentalism though, is more like a mental illness, or like you say, a desperate (quiet desperation?) living in constant fear. How they can believe in some of the things they do in the face of all evidence to the contrary, reminds me of the most intense of conspiracy theorists.

[Tyler Durden]

59. I have nothing against people of REAL FAITH.

Fanatics who insist I goosestep to their Fear-Based Fundamentalist Viewpoint?

Pass.

[ismnotwasm]

61. Well, you know I'm going to hell

In the minds of those people, from several factors. I like George Carlin's little take on that, although it's probably offensive to some.

"When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time"

[Tyler Durden]

62. Here's what I said to a nasty neighbor who said "I pray for you!!"

"Don't bother, because I would rather roast in Hell for eternity than spend one hour in Heaven with your nasty ass and people like you."

She looked like she was going to have a coronary. She lived. Too bad.

[bdf]

71. Somewhere on youtube

Is a hilarious video of Carlin attacking Fred Phelps from beyond the grave. Somebody edited clips of Carlin (plus a soupçon of Olbermann and another broadcaster) with Phelps' rant about Carlin's death so that Carlin could rant back at Phelps (with a little support from Olbermann and the other guy).

[RedLetterRev]

63. A neighbor and really good friend of mine, who was also an expert on hypnotism

and a psychiatrist with a string of degrees and specialties, explained over a lot of suppers how it is that people can get hooked on their own endorphines. Hyper-religion and those mega-church experiences with the bass-booming music and light-shows and all that hoohah are all conducive to a hypnotic (and endorphine-producing) experience. Rock-concerts, arena sports, ..., most any group-think/group-activity where a lot of emotion, sweat, loud noise, shared experience and the like are all good candidates. It's easy enough to accomplish in small churches, or anywhere for that matter, with a willing crowd. Look at what made Amway big. Think about it.

Remember learning in grade-school about Hitler's rallies, with the drums and the lights and all? Primitive but effective. My friend explained that that was just one example of how to get people hooked on their own brain chemistry. Think of what can be accomplished with technology and malice aforethought. The blood rather chills.

At least mine does with appalling regularity, having been given to understand that which I do. It's worse than dishonest -- it's vampirism for cold, hard cash and political power.

My neighbor and I had very many long, very interesting discussions on cults (I had had several narrow brushes with them), indoctrination, hypnosis and hypnotic techniques (some of which, as a side benefit, were actually useful in managing my migraines for years), all of which are very relevant to this thread -- and all of which, sadly, are far too long to add to it. What I can summarize, though, is a lot of what we are seeing in this extreme-fundie movement yes-indoody involves a willingness on the part of the participants to be led to a "feel-good" state, an unwillingness to allow anything to challenge that "feel-good" state, and yes, some of it is an addiction of a particularly insidious and invisible nature. Religion? Meh, not so much. It would take volumes to do the brain-dump.

[LanternWaste]

73. I agree...

"Fundamentalism though, is more like a mental illness,"

Also, I think we're missing out on many more legitimate targets by limiting this only to the religious dogmatist-- as the "ideologically pure" come in all flavors-- political, racial, national, etc.

In the course of a year, I have ten times the amount of secular proselytizers coming to my door telling me about "the only RIGHT choice is to vote for..." than I do religious proselytizers.

:shrug:

[bdf]

64. I think there's at least one other reason

And that is that some of them have great difficulty refraining from committing one sin or another. They want to screw around, be blown by hookers, have gay sex, or whatever. Life is one long struggle or self-restraint. At any moment they might succumb. And if they're really unlucky, they'll succumb and then die before they can repent, dooming them to an eternity in Hell. They daren't risk succumbing, but it's so damned difficult. Suicide might be an answer in the sects that do not says that is an immediate ticket to Hell, but it's not an attractive one. What's the way out of the dilemma? They want the end times, and they want the end times right freakin' now. If the end times happen they'll know their beliefs were right and they'll know they won't have to struggle against temptation for much longer.

[RedLetterRev]

68. I tend to think that demanding End Times right now

by tugging on the sleeve of the Almighty and stomping their feet is less of a sin and a lot more of what I'd call chutzpah.

Just an observation.

If they want to suicide, well, that's their own karma. They have no right to insist that we go on the ride with them. That part, I'd have to call sin.

As Heinlein succinctly put it: "All sin lies in hurting other people. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. Hurting yourself isn't sinful. It's just stupid.'

I must agree.

[patrice]

69. Yes!!! "They want to . . . ." = an absolutely Basic part of the dynamic.

What we want is part of what people Fear and, thus, why they seek security in ________________ (whatever label they're idolizing). Fear and avoidance just make things worse, because their impulses, what they want, are never addressed functionally and they never actually go away. Since those wants are not addressed directly, the dynamics manifest in disguised forms of behavior, such as going off to kill a bunch of people who didn't need killing.

This doesn't mean that we must DO the things that we want to do, just that we MUST recognize our own desires, or forever be blind-sided by them.

It looks to me as though a lot of what passes for Christianity these days is about how "holy" and "good" and "righteous" these saved folks are. Except for putting money in the colleciton plate, "Works" don't matter, only "Faith". Apparently they can do no wrong and the more one builds their own self-worshipping idolatry, which they call Faith, the better Christian they are.

Freud had it right. His model may not have been scientific, but it is an intuitive expression of basic ORGANIC understanding: human biology, and hence everything about us, is driven by the tensions between two aspects of our own physical energy: Eros and Thanatos.