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Top Dems say keep harmony, protect Bush. Don Siegelman says "give me a break."

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:17 PM
Original message
Top Dems say keep harmony, protect Bush. Don Siegelman says "give me a break."
Several Democrats and advisors lately have indicated that no prosecution of the Bush administration should be pursued. A statement along these lines was made at Netroots Nation by an advisor to Obama from the University of Chicago Law School.

From The Nation:

Netroots face bipartisan attacks on the rule of law.

Politicians, legal experts and progressive activists grappled with Republican abuses of power at the third annual netroots convention on Friday, debating how an Obama Administration might restore the rule of law. Cass Sunstein, an adviser to Barack Obama from the University of Chicago Law School, cautioned against prosecuting criminal conduct from the current Administration. Prosecuting government officials risks a "cycle" of criminalizing public service, he argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton--or even the "slight appearance" of it. Update: Sunstein emailed to emphasize that he also said and believes that "egregious crimes should not be ignored."


Define "egregious"...Mr. Sunstein. Or ask someone like Don Siegelman. Note from Greenwald's blog...Cass Sunstein just married Samatha Powers.

"Give me a break," responded former Alabama Governor Don Siegelman, when told about Sunstein's advice during an interview with The Nation. Siegelman took a court-sanctioned trip to tell attendees about his conviction for corruption, currently on appeal, which he says was motivated by a malicious Republican effort to destroy his career. Discussing alleged White House abuse of the Justice Department, which led to Alberto Gonzales' resignation, Siegelman said "what Karl Rove has been accused of doing would make Watergate look like child's play." The former governor also urged activists to press Congress to hold Rove in contempt for defying a House subpoena in a related investigation. His supporters have launched an Internet campaign, ContemptforRove.org, to advance the cause.


Glenn Greenwald today points out that it is not just the advice of Sunstein we are facing...he adds Harold Ford and Chuck Schumer to the list.

He quotes Jane Mayer in presenting Schumer's position.

Here's what The New Yorker's Jane Mayer reported last week during her Washington Post chat:

Albany New York: I've already ordered your book from Amazon, but am very interested in your take on why there's been no little effective political opposition to any of this Administration's initiatives. Is it a question of limited public awareness or interest, or a more political calculation that one shouldn't appear to be soft on terrorism?

Jane Mayer: Since you're in New York, let me tell you about a conversation I had with one of your senators, Chuck Schumer. When I asked him why, given his safe seat, and ostensible concern for civil liberties, he didn't speak out more against the Bush Administration's detention and interrogation programs, he said in essence that voters don't care about these issues. So, he said, he wasn't going to talk about them.


Guess what, Senator Schumer, voters do care very much. We do intend to talk about it.

Harold Ford's statement at Netroots Nation yesterday was absolutely unbelievable. Remember, this is the fellow that James Carville wanted as to replace Dean as chairman of the DNC.

From Greenwald's blog today. Shame on you, Harold Ford.

Former Congressman Harold Ford appeared at the Netroots Nation conference yesterday, argued that Bush officials shouldn't be held accountable for crimes they committed while in office, and then insisted that Democrats shouldn't be expected to defend civil liberties and Constitutional rights because "the Constitution doesn't poll very well." In arguing against prosecutions for Bush lawbreaking, Ford said that Bush officials already have been subjected to accountability for their lawbreaking: "'I think that accountability was brought in 2006 when lost in the House and the Senate,' Ford said. 'And we have only eight more months of George W. Bush . . .'"


Ford is chairman of the DLC, the group which he calls the "policy shop" of the 2008 nominee.

Don Siegelman was right. Give me a break.

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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's the "Lee Hamilton option."
George Bush Jr. has appointed numerous felons and others from the Iran Contra scandal to prominent positions in his current administration. He has suspiciously appointed Iran-contra insider, Lee Hamilton, to head the 9-11 investigation after a failed attempt to appoint wanted war criminal Henry Kissinger. His advisors in Latin American affairs are none other than Otto reich and Roger Noriega. Both implicated in Iran-contra and behind the recent coup in Haiti. Some people may not really be all that clued in on what happened during the Iran-Contra scandal. So I decided to put together this timely graphic in effort to explain what happened and why his dealings with these people, at a time when government honesty is so crucial, should be held under close scrutiny.

Old American Century

Lee Hamilton refused to pursue Iran-Contra criminals, and voila!...here they are again!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. They must have donkey photos of Schumer, et al.
Warrantless wiretapping and Total Information Awareness must be working quite well for the Reich.

The Siegelman case makes it absolutely clear: The Bushies are no friends of democracy, freedom or the United States of America.

As the Vichy French discovered, cooperating with the barbarians will not guarantee safety.

Thank you for your excellent post, madfloridian! Very much obliged for the heads-up and the who's who.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. Senator Schumer is acting like he didn't get constituent letters--Did you write to him?
Anybody???
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
52. Yes
Wrote snail mail, e-mail, and phone calls. All New Yorkers should give it a try.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
99. Thank you
I have been writing to Congress about energy issues. I also write letters to reporters about stories that they write. I get responses in emails a few times per year.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
88. You act like you think letters matter to him. He can do whatever he wants.
He is an incumbent and secure thru the primaries.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
92. He is right, Americans don't care after all the M$M decided we care more about
runaway bride than the Downing street memo! After all the corporations decide what we should care about!
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. I'll bet you never wrote to Congress. You just like to use the internet & DU to flame Democrats
There's plenty like you.

Prove me wrong. Cut and paste some email you wrote to anybody in Congress about anything. I'll wait. Ha ha ha ha ha
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. I suppose you needed to see a [Sarcasam] smiley to understand what I have said
I sure as hell have wrote to congress and often. I also supported people who ran against those who support the present Criminal Regime in DC namely Nancy Pelosi for not having the spine to enforce the rule of law on this pResident! If a Democratic legislator is a Bush appeaser then they deserve our scorn.
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DirtyDawg Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. KansDem is right...
...Are these people absolutely 'effin' crazy? You can't appease these bastards, you'll get it in the ass every time. If Obama and/or a new Congress with a huge majority doesn't hold these people accountable, somebody's gonna decide to take their own revenge. Does The Hague have a police force? Can they engage in 'rendition'? Sweep in and haul Bush, Cheney and the rest off to face the music? I say it's let the law work, or suffer the consequences one more time.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Anyone can "do rendition," if DC-Dems and Obama continue to "do cowering"
Those are the rules of the treaties we signed -- and that tens of thousands of Real Americans fought and died to forge.

We have an enforceable duty to deal with our own torturers/war criminals. If we fail to impeach/prosecute them, "universal jurisdiction" kicks in. They technically become int'l fugitives, like Pinochet. The DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy here can (and will) whine about that, but they can't "change the rules" -- like they've done here in our once-great nation.

This is why impeachment is such a moral, patriotic imperative. Without it, the American People get put on the hook for that which they never gave their proper consent. We become a patently lawless nation. With consequence we can't even begin to imagine today.

==
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. We're already getting consequences. People can't eat, drive
or keep their homes because Bush has given away the country.

We can already appeal to the ICC and we should before these bastards leave office. DC Dems will not move or they will fight tooth and nail to avoid moving. Obama will not prosecute.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
81. By we do you mean US citizens can appeal against their won leaders?nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #81
95. Yes. n/t
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, then there should be no consequences for anything else we do.
If our leaders can't be held accountable for corruption, why should we be shackled for the poor decisions that we decide to make in the future?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. The only thing these people understand is money.
In order to get their attention, we'd have to raise real money for Don. Ditto for a Bush prosecution.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm gonna run out and commit me some "public service"
K&R

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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. collaborators all.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here is Don Siegelman's website.
http://donsiegelman.org/index.html

"The Star: Your case has gotten a lot of national media attention. Are
you surprised at that?

Siegelman: Keith Oberman had a segment about
the three worst scandals in the Bush administration, and they had
something called "Siegelman Gate" (chuckle). They had this case,
Blackwater and the war in Iraq as the worst.

I think this will make Watergate look like child's play when it is fully investigated, not so much this case because certainly it's not about me. It's about restoring justice and protecting our democracy and, because this case shows the lengths to which those who are
obsessed with power will go in order to gain power or retain power, it
has attracted the attention of the national press."


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desktop Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Watergate today would hardly make the evening news
If Watergate happened today, which is minor compared to Bush's crimes, there would be no impeachment trial and the story would be ruled partisan and dropped by the main stream media.
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. I am disappointed in Cass Sunstein
He was a visiting professor where I went to law school during my second year. I took a seminar he taught and was most impressed. I've read many of his writings over the years and been equally impressed. To see him say this is powerfully disillusioning. This is not about the criminalization of policy differences; this is about the continued survival of the rule of law and the concomitant notion that no person is above said rule.

As for Harold Ford, anyone who says, on the record, that "the Constitution doesn't poll very well" should shoot himself in the head out of pure embarrassment and shame. Sir, you are no democrat or Democrat. You are an enabler and abettor of fascists. You are worthless and useless. You continue to fulfill a much needed void. Go away. Go away forever, you gutless piece of shit.

The criminal assholes in the Bush Crime Family should be impeached, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law at the Hague and meet the same fate as the worst war criminals tried at Nuremberg - execution. Chimpoleon himself should not be hanged - he's simply too stupid to understand what he is guilty of. Instead I would hand him a shovel and make him hand-dig graves six days a week for the rest of his life. Maybe that would begin to illuminate to him the death, grief and misery he has inflicted on others.

Go Don Siegelman!


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Powerful post.
Love your profile...:-)
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Luv ya back, madfloridian
your posts inspired me to become active again. Search on MNChimpH8R for my previous comments. Switched from Windows to Mac and DU won't recognize my old password/cookies.

Elad, are you listening.?I want my name and post count back!
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
66. My husband had the same problem with his password...
when we switched to a Mac. Skinner e-mailed him a new one and he was able to access his account.

How do you like your Mac? We are still trying to learn how to use it. It's very frustrating, especially when lame is trying to make a vid or upload video. The movie maker on our old PC was a lot easier for computer illiterates like us.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Amen about Harold Ford... In a way I'm glad he didn't win...
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 03:34 PM by calipendence
Though that's hard to say about a Senate seat, but perhaps it will be easier to replace a Republican in the subsequent election with a decent progressive Democratic challenger than trying to choose between an incumbent DLC fascist and a Republican fasicst then... We already know that problem with our own borderline fascist here in California, Diane Feinstein.

Harold Ford should be kept as far out of power positions in the Democratic Party as we can keep him! And we need a purge of many others of these people that no longer want "democracy" and just a "DemoKratic" party instead of one that follows the lead of its constituency.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I read that Ford's new wife, Emily, is supporting Nikki Tinker...against Steve Cohen
in TN. Cohen is a true progressive, and sounds like the Fords are supporting his opposition. I think Harold's brother is supporting Tinker as well.

http://cohen.house.gov/
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Frisbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. I say...
Turn him (The Chimperor) and the rest of the Iraq War architects of to the new Iraqi government to be tried for the murder of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians. Let them hang them on the same gallows and with the same noose that was used for Saddam Hussein.

Hey NSA, I know you're reading this, so fuck you and your boss.
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vanboggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
49. Oh thank you for saying that
I've been thinking the same thing since Saddam was hanged. Cool sig line too :)
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
82. Thank you from a fellow Minnesotan.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. "brought to you by Carl's Jr."
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm absolutely not buying it!!!!
There simply has to be more than politics involved here. There are blatant war crimes that are being DELIBERATELY ignored. The entire civilized world bears witness to these crimes and yet our politicians-these enablers, choose to pretend that these crimes do not exist! If anyone deserves a walk through Dachau, it is these obstructionist politicians.

I can think of no other reason why these supposed defenders of our Constitution would be willing to give bush and his gang of fascist murderers a pass except complicity, so careful investigations into THEIR backgrounds is also required imo.

We The People should demand investigations into those Dems who are fighting the hardest to keep impeachment off the table. THAT should shake things up!

Regardless of what America is or was or has turned into, we NEED to be or become a nation of laws, NOT a nation of scoff-laws who condone what has gone on these past 7 plus years. If we are to be the latter, if we continue to act as a nation in the same way as fascists have in the past, then we deserve everything the 'terrorists' throw at us as well as everything the civilized peoples of the world want to throw at us economically! This rogue nation SHOULD be brought down if rogue nation we intend to remain!

Like Senator Obama says: 'It is in our hands to change the world'....we just need to figure out how we are willing to go about it! Sitting on our asses and expecting the next President to do it for us seems to be the current status quo. I'm sure the victims of America's recent foreign policy are quite unhappy with THAT!

Does anyone here think that THOSE VICTIMS have a way to change their own lot? Would anyone here if in their position want to exact some kind of revenge? You know you would! If your country were to be invaded, your resources stolen, your jobs destroyed, your relatives murdered, your lands salted with toxic nuclear wastes and who knows what other hazardous materials and your government replaced with a puppet government under the direct control of the invaders WHAT WOULD YOU BE WANTING TO DO????

Well don't be too harsh on them for doing just that! We may indeed get that smoking mushroom cloud and by God I would argue our own complacency may have earned it! Go ahead, explain to me why we DON'T deserve retribution when this is OUR GOVERNMENT, when WE THE PEOPLE have allowed these crimes to have been committed in our name! While you are at it please explain to me why those citizens of Germany didn't deserve that walk though of those concentration camps as well because imo you argue from this very position.

Perhaps a nationwide strike is in order...it would be great if our honest politicians to include Don Siegelman were to lead us in this. Are You listening Kucinich, Wexler, McDermott, and Boxer and the rest of you who push for impeachment hearings? Are you listening Mike Malloy, Randi Rhodes and Thom Hartmann? If our reps won't represent us then it is time for We The People to push back...it is time for the corporate media to listen to OUR NEEDS for a change instead of the needs of the fascist corporatists! It's time for the sleeping giant to re-awaken!
:grr:
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desktop Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. At the end of the day, Democratic politicians are just that, politicians.
The democratic congress is afraid of backlash going into the election. They see more advantage in just letting the electorate get mad, so they will vote for them in November. There is only a handful of Democratic congressmen who would actually put the good of the country ahead of their own political aspirations. They may be better than Republican politicians, but they're still just politicians.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Which is why I suggested shaking them up with investigations
If independent investigators start turning up things which suggest deliberate complacency or worse complicity in even a few of these enablers, imo the rest of them will be singing a far different tune in short order! I am suggesting a fishing expedition to find not fish but skeletons in closets of those enablers....it is quite likely that many of those skeletons are the true reasons behind their actions. Another-words these are compromised politicians who no longer should be holding down their jobs because what they represent are those jobs over the needs of We The People and/or our very Constitution.

It's time for the rats nest to be cleaned out! We The People should not be standing by witnessing what our government has been doing in our name! If we don't have what it takes to do this then perhaps we are already lost...I don't think that this is the case-there are FAR MORE of us than there are of them. I for one think that the 'sleeping giant' has been squeezed into a corner hard enough, that with a little bit of honest leadership we would be willing to actually take back our country from the crooks.

I am not one to sit back and let other nations make such a decision for us. We The People are America, if we are to go down, we should go down fighting instead of complaining or hoping that a new President will cure all our ailments. Senator Obama may be the right man at the right time but he can not and will not do what needs doing without the proper motivations from We The People-I say the time is NOW if we are to motivate him and motivate our country. IMO, politics as usual needs to end now. It is time for us to pull our own selves up by our own bootstraps. It is time for We The People to make a statement.

What that statement should be is easy enough but how to make it...well I have suggested a massive general walk-out. If there are better methods, I'd like to hear 'em. Sitting on our asses-'staying the course' ain't one this American is at all interested in.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #38
84. Who should do these investigations? I do not trust them to do it themselves.
I to think there is blackmail going on due to the wiretapping. I wrote our madame chairman that if she was standing in the way of impeachment because she had something to hide then for the good of the country she should fall on her own sword.

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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #84
104. What ever happened to real investigative reporters?
Yeah, I know, the MSM is bought and paid for and progressive radio has no budget. Ok then government watchdogs come to mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Government_watchdog_groups_in_the_U.S.

I am aware of Melanie Sloan's 'CREW' which is on that list: http://www.citizensforethics.org/
...she was a regular on the Al Franken Show a few years back and periodically turns up on progressive radio interviews.

I just now wrote them this e-mail, (not that it will help things other than making me feel like I did SOMETHING:

Just Jon-Q-Citizen here with a question you folks likely get ten times a day. With Washington DC an impeachment rich minefield and with the crimes committed by the bush administration blatantly obvious to the world, WHY are DEMOCRATIC members of congress deliberately blocking the impeachment process? Please, we both know it ain't due to mere politics...there is something massively fishy going on here. Are you folks looking into Speaker Pelosi or some of the others who are running interference? I am a great fan of Patty Murray as I am from Wa. State and yet she ACTIVELY squelched a peoples movement to bring about impeachment last year down in our capital Olympia. This imho is a deliberate enabling of these crimes and We The People deserve to know what is going on. All we have left are you government watchdog agencies...is there ANYTHING you folks can do to help out our country?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tutonic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Ok. You need to stop scribbling on yourkeyboard. When we start
advocating the extermination of a country and as a bonus throw in the use of H bombs we need to go quietly into the night. After all I didn't expect that they'd actually allow you to converse from your lock up Mr. Kandzinsky.
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. It's Kaczynski
and I am not wrong. Saudi Arabia is the most regressive society on earth with the only possible competitor being Afghanistan. Women are property. There is what amounts to slavery regarding their "guest workers." Every choice in every person's private life is dictated by a brutal and patriarchal "religion." I am a pacifist by nature, and a European style Social Democrat by conviction. The Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia is an absolute evil in the style and manner of German, Italian and Japanese fascism of the 1930s and Stalin's perversion of Marxism. It is in fact, when examined with an objective eye, worse than all of those horrid ideologies. It cannot be allowed to continue to exist if this world is to become a civilized place. It is evil and breed evils wherever it touches the earth. It is antithetical to all forms of equality and human rights.

I hate Wahhabism as much as I hate Bush and Cheney. The desire to enslave is the desire to enslave no matter who it comes from.

Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.

The chance is now given you to end in a day the bondage of centuries, and to rise in one bound from social degradation to the place of common equality with all other varieties of men

-Frederick Douglass
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Dropping H-Bombs is an answer for fools only
This is a small planet-only the dirtiest of birds is willing to soil their own nest all in the name of making their own life a bit better, I do not see that as working at all! Why on earth would the Chinese be into doing this if it meant radiating a sizable chunk of this little lifeboat that they too must exist on? There are far more sensible ways to accomplish things than to drop bombs-especially radioactive ones!

You may be right that the Chinese may come to be the next uber-super power. I'll not be debating that one, but as an American citizen I am not so ready to just hand the baton over to them...well not without a fight first that is.

There is imo no finer form of governance than democracy...China is NOT a democracy and you may be correct in thinking that we are no longer one either...perhaps we never were one but that is no excuse for us to just roll over and say stick a fork in us because we are too screwn to do something about it.

America-We The People are a sleeping giant and with the proper motivations we can be awakened to great deeds. Roosevelt oversaw some of those great deeds-I see no reason what-so-ever that we can't be called on to do so again. First off the rats nest that our government has become needs to be cleaned out. We The People understand being squeezed and most understand who is doing the squeezing!

Some would argue that 'all is already lost' and do so quite well in this forum, I ain't so willing to give up yet. I say this because I do not believe that the corporatist have won yet...there are FAR MORE of us than there are of them. Most of us still believe that We The People ARE our own government and that those we elect are supposed to (by and large) actually represent us! Those representatives need to be breaking those corporate conglomerates up, the Sherman Anti-Trust Act clearly shows us that it can be done again and how it should be done. What Reagan has done can yet be undone imo if We The People should so choose to do so.

In proof reading this I see that the moderator has removed your post...I am willing to continue this in PM format should you so desire.
c
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keepCAblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
107. "Like Senator Obama says: 'It is in our hands to change the world'"
Edited on Tue Jul-22-08 01:40 AM by keepCAblue
Senator Obama? You mean the same Senator Obama that months ago was opposed to the FISA amendment giving the teelcoms immunity, but then turned around just recently and supported/voted for it? Oh, yeah, right. That's sure gonna change the world, Obama, buckling under to the evil corporate interests that have you in their pockets. Sigh. Ain't nuttin' gonna change it seems, just puttin' a new shade of lipstick on the same old pig.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. The international reputation of the United States almost demands
that these low life pieces a shit be tried and convicted for their offenses against humanity and the US constitution. To do anything less would be, in the eyes of the world, affirmation and tacit approval of their acts.

I just sent Don Siegelman another contribution. To atone for the one I made to Harold Ford in 2006. Spineless asswipe.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. I read this as class elitism. We need to drag out the guillotines.
Of course I am speaking metaphorically of course.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
61. Head baskets? (nt)
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. Drop Sass an email. Tell him how much you appreciate his "turn the other cheek" attitude.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
85. Done. Thanks for the email.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. We would 'risk having another cycle of criminalizing public service..'??
like the prosecution of Bill Clinton? Foggetaboutit!!

Two clear choices:

1- We can all schedule a lobotomy--that would work out better for everyone. Case closed. And bring on the jack boots, we won't notice and we won't care.

2-Risking another cycle of prosecuting public servants who are CRIMINALS will happen, is happening, and it would be smart to get out of the way.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. Shave their heads.
We expect the Republicans to protect their own above the good of the country. But all Democrats in both House and Senate who refuse to support accountability should be exposed as collaborators and treated accordingly. Start with Pelosi and go from there.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
22. I see another reason
to remain outside the Democratic party I left 10 years ago.

:(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. Especially creepy is when establishment Dems LIKE NADLER
on Washington Journal last Thursday, say that of course Bush has committed war crimes and will likely be prosecuted for them as if Nadler himself has nothing to do with that process.

As if some War Crimes Prosecution fairy will float in after the election and make it all better.

That's how far our reps are from their oaths to uphold the Constitution. And Nadler is one of the better ones. :shrug:
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
26. The passive attitude of ranking "liberal" lawmakers, shouldn't come as any surprise.
We have people on this very site with the same attitude. Just look up any post that has the word Impeachment in it. You'll see them. They'll say things like, "Oh he's only going to be in office for a few more months. Then Obama can fix everything. Besides we don't have the votes and it's just going to divide us."

Truth is, we're already divided and the longer these criminals run loose with our leadership's blessing, the more divided we will become. If are unwilling to hold Bush to his crimes then the entire idea of justice becomes just another political ideology. Meaningless.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. I wonder if anyone will wish they'd taken action after Bush bombs Iran. n/t
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. This is par for the course for the DLC--Democrats Lacking in Character.
FKA MNchimph8r, you nailed it about Harold Ford. If his family isn't backing the progressive Dem it is highly reminiscent of what is happening in Florida with Emmanuel and Wasserman-Schultz supporting the Republicans and Republican lites over progressive Dems.

How does one become a member of the DLC?

I have a theory. First, you have to have lots of money or family connections or business connections. Or influence, as in an ex- Congressman or ex-Senator.

You must be willing to call yourself a Democrat even if you are committed to Republican or even Corporatist ideals, hence the support for the Iraq War, FISA, Iran war runup, etc.

This is all about power and maintaining power. These folks consider themselves to be the movers and shakers and they do not want to give up power to a bunch of liberals who're going to raise their taxes and give power back to the people of this country. They could give a shit what life is like for those of us who are not in the country club set. They cannot empathize with blue collar workers or immigrants. But they give lip service to progressive ideas so they can continue to hold sway over the Democratic Party.

This entitlement mentality comes from constantly being in the rarified air of high finance, big business and high-level government. It is very easy to be seduced by the idea that all of those brilliant, Harvard-educated, old money folks are the ones who have made America great. When you rub shoulders on a regular basis with governors and Senators and presidents of international corporations, and high-powered lobbyists your perspective can easily become skewed toward the belief that the "little people" are supposed to serve the elites and the government is supposed to protect those who are the big investors in our economy and imperial industrial complex. When you always fly first-class and only eat in the finest eateries with the "pretty people" and the rich and famous, it's very easy to think that this is your birthright. Such is aristocracy.

NOTE: There are a few of our elected representatives who have been able to maintain their perspective despite being part of the power elite. Paul Wellstone, Dennis Kucinich, Barbara Boxer come to mind.

The DLC is really a power-sharing mechanism that is designed to perpetuate the illusion of a Democratic Party that favors working people over the elites. It shares power with the Republican power base, who interestingly enough, also abandon their party's conservative ideals in favor of fascist/corporatist enablement.

So, the reality is the DLC's interest in not prosecuting any of the lawbreakers, no matter how heinous their crimes, is basically an exercise in self-preservation. They are neck deep in this fascist takeover and are delighted with their opportunity to have a Democratic President and Congress so they can continue to feather their nests and consolidate their power. This explains why Obama is constantly being told to run to the center, to forget about holding lawbreakers accountable, to become less liberal. The last thing the DLC wants is for the incoming Democratic President and Congress to have a mandate to clean up the corruption and dismantle the fascist power structure it has taken them and the Republican elite so long to build.

If I'm on the wrong track here, someone please enlighten me as to what the right track is. I'm becoming very discouraged and disillusioned with the DLC and our Party's leadership.


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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
30. Protect Bush and the Democrats who went along, Obama said
something similar back in the spring.

http://www.davidswanson.org/?q=node/1269

Obama...

"...So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important-- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing between really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I've said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it.'"


David Swanson...

Obama did not say he prefers prosecution to impeachment for political reasons. He said he's opposed to both because he doesn't know of any crimes having been committed, and he hasn't seen any exceptional circumstances, but that he's open to prosecution should he discover that crimes have been committed..."


...The current president has openly confessed to violating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and with it the Fourth Amendment. He's on videotape repeatedly lying about not doing so over a period of years, and he's on videotape brazenly confessing to doing so after he had been caught. Eavesdropping in violation of FISA is a federal crime, punishable by up to 5 years in prison and a $10,000 fine, for each violation. Obama knows this but trusts members of the media not to point it out. And if they won't point it out now, can we be sure we'll persuade them to point it out later?..."





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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. Rule #1 in Politics 101: Never make a martyr out of your opponent
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 06:19 PM by Gman
the GOP did that to Clinton during the impeachment. Instead of picking up more GOP seats in 98, the GOP actually lost seats.

That said, egregious behavior cannot and must not be tolerated.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #31
50. We don't want martyrdom just justice. Not to much to expect. nm
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
53. So we are to ignore
the destruction of the constitution, as if that were the same as some kind of sexual peccadillo? I did not like what happened to Clinton, and he did not deserve what they did. That in no way means that we should just give up all the ideals of our country. I did not serve in the military of our country for that,did you?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. My letter to Cass.
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 08:05 PM by rhett o rick
Cass Sunstein

Is it true that you are rationalizing not prosecuting the criminals in the Bush administration because Prosecuting government officials risks a "cycle" of criminalizing public service?

I must say that is a horribly upper class elitist attitude. All criminals in the lower classes get prosecuted.

These criminals are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent humans.

They have indiscriminately tortured people in the name of the United States.

They are responsible for the misery of thousands in this country.

They are responsible for the possible economic destruction of this country.

For a more complete list see the articles of impeachment submitted by Rep Kucinich.

And many of these criminals have done some of these crimes before and werent punished then.

What I think I hear you saying is the we wont prosecute you if you wont prosecute us. There is enough spoils for all of us.

Lets put it simply, they broke the law, they need to be prosecuted. If that causes some kind of backlash, bring it on.
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FKA MNChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Bra-fucking-vo rhett o rick
I will send a variant of that to Cass tomorrow and remind him that I was once a student of his.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. And a big bra-fucking-vo right back. nm
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Pharaoh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
39. You know what?
If Bush would have just gotten a blow job nobody would give a flying fuck.

This argument of we must not look like we are trying to get back at them is just plain fucking ludicrous and I wish the fuck wads that are using it would cut it the fuck out.

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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. I notice the sigh of the Masons
Some believe they are in the cabal themselves. What do you say?
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Pharaoh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #54
65. Yes
The Masons are a front group for the wealthy elite Illuminati who control the governments and corporations. I put their symbol in my sig line merely to raise awareness. Thanks for noticing.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
41. madfloridian- EXCELLENT POST btw
Thank you for this...my bad for not saying so earlier. knr
:patriot:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
42. I'm somewhat surprised that Cass Sunstein opposes holding the Bush administration to account
Edited on Sat Jul-19-08 09:27 PM by Time for change
I have a lot of respect for him. I've read a couple books by him, and it seems to me that he's an excellent Constitutional lawyer. He does a great job of exposing the utter hypocrisy of the so-called "strict constructionists", especially Scalia and Thomas. Also, he's an ardent admirer of FDR.

But just because I respect his opinion, that doesn't mean that I agree with him on this issue.

You quote him as saying:

"Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton--or even the "slight appearance" of it"

Now, he's getting out of his field. That statement doesn't reflect Constitutional law; it reflects political calculation.

How anyone can compare the impeaching of Bush to "retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton" is beyond me. There is simply no basis for comparison. Sunstein can't possibly believe that there is any real basis for comparison there. He is so intent on Obama winning the 2008 election that he can't see beyond that. It seems that it has caused him to feel that nothing else is important, such that he is afraid that any move that might be seen as controversial should be postponed indefinitely, lest it pose the slightest risk of hurting Obama's chances.

Bill Clinton might have ensured his re-election by choosing not to pursue the crimes of the Reagan/Bush administration (but probably it would have helped his re-election IMO), but he certainly didn't do our country any favors by pursuing that path.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. At least he emailed the Nation to say that we should not let "egregious" crimes pass.
Trouble is, most of the stuff done by this administration well meets that criteria. Most of them are beyond that.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
45. If the glorious day ever comes where Shumer, Ford, Pelosi, et. al
are captured and brought to the public square, and no guillotine is available, I would be happy to behead them with a butter knife. Yes, truly, I would.
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MadrasT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. Bravo, kudos, and mad props
There is absolutely no comparison between Clinton's "impeachable offenses" and the extend and gravity of what Cheney, Bush, and KKKRove have done. The mere suggestion that they are even in the same ballpark is just ludicrous.
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-19-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
47. We All Know If The Shoe Were On The Other Foot The Repugs Would......
have no problem initiating impeachment proceedings of a Dem president. We saw it with Clinton and we'll see it again if they have a chance in the future.

Impeaching Bush has nothing to do with getting back at the Repugs for impeaching Clinton. It has everything to do with the rule of law and the constitution. No one is above the law. If we let them get away with the crimes and abuses of the last 8 years - history will repeat itself when they again gain power. And you can bet your boots that someday they will regain the presidency. God help us when that happens again.
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
51. All any of us can do
is e-mail and call our senators and rep. and try to put the pressure on. I do live in NY and am totally disgusted by Schumer and the AG he foisted upon us, let alone this latest stupidity. In my e-mail to him I wrote that I have never voted Repub. in my 45 years of voting, but I will not only vote against him, but will work to defeat him. Now before I get flamed I want to say, If he will not stand up for Democratic and progressive principals, what good is he?I never did like his sorry ass, but always held my nose and voted, NO MORE. As for Harold Ford, it makes me sick that he got swiftboated himself and still knuckles under to the criminals that did it to him. Are they all working for the cabal? I just don't know.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
55. Which Democrat said "protect Bush"????
Ridiculous, utterly ridiculous!!

Another day, another ANTI-Democratic post by "madfloridian".
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #55
64. That's one take. Another is anti-democratic actions
by power elites in the Democratic party. The latter take is mine.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. I would still like to know which "TOP" Democrats said "protect Bush"
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 08:35 AM by George II
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. Saying that would be too obvious and might not be the reasons
behind inaction. It may have nothing to do with him. In fact, I don't think it is the reason. It just becomes a defacto by-product.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #71
97. What is all that gibberish?
The subject of this thread was established as:

"Top Dems say keep harmony, protect Bush. Don Siegelman says "give me a break." "

I just ask - who are those "Top Dems" who the OP claims said "protect Bush"? I doubt I'll ever get an answer to that question.

All too often here we see totally false subjects posted, and most of the time they are ANTI-Democratic! I'm tired of it and no, I won't go away. But I WILL point these out when I see them.

Sadly, some here who consider themselves "democrats" are the ones who are most guilty of being ANTI-Democratic.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
56. horrifying; stupid; short-sighted;
if i ever found myself uttering such words, i'd wonder if i should just get it over with and blow my brains out.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
57. does/did anyone honestly expect anything different? it's clinton letting poppy off ALL OVER AGAIN!
and look where that "forget the past, it's time to move on" attitude got us- poppy's evil spawn.

and since he's going to walk too- we can all expect a good ass-fucking from jebidiah come 2012.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
58. Who is influencing Barack Obama?
Who is influencing Barack Obama that an advisor would actually state it would serve no purpose in the end to prosecute this president and his administration including, and particularly, the vice-president?

It really makes you wonder where this country is headed and if the democracy will indeed survive.
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Winston. Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
59. They can't and won't procecute
Because once they start it will become impossible to stop, one thing will lead to another, this goes way beyond anyones imagination, just take the missing 2.3 trillion at the pentagon for example, they never bothered investigating that ! only Cynthia Mckinney dared ask a few question of Rumsfeld. There is no difference between the two parties, they feed on each other and perpetuate this charade, both would fall if this corrupt system was exposed.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
60. The hard thing to figure is the purpose behind the bush Democrats.
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 07:27 AM by mmonk
Is it power? Is it hiding complicity in crimes? Is there a profit motive? Are they moles? What is their purpose in government, their endgame and how did they gain so much control of the party? I intend to stay on their tails and be a thorn.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
62. Someone please do this in a cartoon or animated video - Pelosi, Feinstein,
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 07:52 AM by higher class
Landrieau, Ford, Schurmer, Reid - get them singing in harmony with lyrics that tell their true story and be sure to include the DLC banner and put DLC on some basebal caps and put them on their heads or have them waving the caps. Show the Nelsons and all those who allowed the FISA in the chorus. Those who screwed us on the FISA are usually the ones who screw us on everything.

Let the lyrics contain their words.

Give Dick a cameo appearance - possibly from his bunker - giant smile on his face back slapping Addington.

Be sure to feature the Ford and Shuster admissions and contrast them with numbers and images - exiles, massacred burial dumps, even Katrina.

Make sure it shows their cavalier attitude towards suffering. Big grins.

Perhaps Mukasey should appear with Feinstein and Schumer singing of their successes.

In all bitterness - these people are Republican darlings. They need to get kicked out. The American peole don't deserve them. Ford should go into hibernation.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
63. If Obama ges re-elected in 2012 and Republicans get control of Congress in 2014
How long will it take for them to begin impeachment proceedings? Before the end of the first day?
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
67. love your post-great as usual...
50th rec and of course a :kick:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
69. Because we've all just thrived on all this harmony the last 2 years.
:grr:

"The Constitution doesn't poll very well." :nuke:

"Give me a break" is right.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Dat ting got my blood a boil'n!
And that cronyism has worked so well for 7 1/2 years. My aching fucking head!
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
72. a "cycle" of criminalizing public service. Give me a break, indeed.
How can any politician think it is in their best interest to allow this travesty to continue? They expect to be able to point their fingers and say "HE did it, don't look at me", while the reality is that they enabled that war criminal and provided no checks and balances and abdicated their duty to WE THE PEOPLE and the constitution. Throw their sorry asses out. Hell, prosecute them as collaborators. If WE THE PEOPLE fail to correct this abomination, then we as a country have failed.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
73. Can we accept an Obama who is guided by this Cass logic? The little
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 09:17 AM by higher class
people have to obey all the laws and the biggies get to have Democrat Cass tell everyone to slow down and ask us to consider that the crimes and desctruction we (in the U.S. and Iraq and all the places that hold their refugees are suffering from) is only 'bad politics'? Holy, holy, holy crap. We are screwed? Are we screwed? I am getting to the point where I am closing down on Dems. We only have a few heros. Obama and his Cass may not be our heroes. Why do they play with us like this?

The only thing we can prosecute is sex offenses of Democrats?

I didn't learn and teach all the crimes and double dealing of the citizens by Republicans to now start teaching the disregard and traitorous acts of Dems against the people.

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. I think we'll know the answer if Obama selects a DLC or Republican or Republican Dem.
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 09:22 AM by higher class
The reality that some repulsive (to me) names like Nunn, Hagel, and even milquetoast Bayh are floated scares me out of my mind.

It's time to ask and demand. The clues are sickening me.

Madfloridian - you put together a great piece.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
74. The problem is obvious
too many DLC members and Blue Dogs in the Democratic Party. Vote them OUT at every opportunity. They're not Democrats, but rather GOP infiltrators into the Democratic Party.
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samplegirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
75. When will the democrats grow some balls
and Go after ROVE full force?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
77. A Nation of Laws ends when some laws are ignored for a special class of persons.
Why would any of us continue to obey the laws if Republicans or NeoCons are immune to the law??

If a few people are not subject to the law, the rest of the people will quit obeying the law, that simple.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
78. You just have to wonder WHY!
What in the world are our representatives thinking?

The statement "the Constitution doesn't poll very well," sounds like he's polling republicans. :shrug:
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
79. So what in hell does anyone expect - they're all "royalists in donkey suits"
OF COURSE they're going to say the king and nobility are untouchable by us proles. Royalty and nobility are always sacrosanct - just ask any one of them, they'll tell you.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
80. There is nothing that could scare me more than the statements recorded
in this blog. For the first time I am understanding the reason for wanting term limits. All they care about is what is polling. No wonder their approval rates are down to single digit.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
83. I suspect that the only calculator one would need
to determine the number of our elected representatives, both Republican and Democrat, that don't belong in prison is the fingers of both hands and toes of both feet. No one knows this better than Don Siegelman.

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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
86. "Prosecuting government officials risks a "cycle" of criminalizing public service,
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 11:33 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
he argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton--or even the "slight appearance" of it.

That would be straight from the Republican playbook. But then, as was remarked at the time of the infantile, litigious Clinton persecution of President Clinton, most lawyers are, in fact, Republicans - all the more so at Sunstein's level. It shows a truly shameless, even surreal, want of any sense of proportion, to conflate the litigation of Clinton on the score of his adultery with the proposed arraignment of these Republicans for the serious crimes that are under discussion. The demurral of the brief emailed sentence succeeding it, is a laughable attempt at a weasel blandishment of such serious crimes.

To view them as less than major felonies is nothing less than a recipe for a future of unabated, criminal anarchy in the Government of the day. The mere appearance of such major criminality is more than sufficient; the trial of course is something else - however reasonable it would be to expect multiple convictions and severe penalties.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. It's quite Orwellian if you think about it.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. I'm not sure Orwell's imagination could stretch to being sufficiently
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 11:43 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
diseased to envisage quite the level of the surreal we are witnessing. Or Joseph Heller, for that matter.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. It IS truly amazing along with acceptance of it as some sort
of real and lucid reasoning.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
91. Strange as it seems, some voters are still in denial about DLC's agenda
"The Democratic Leadership Council's agenda is indistinguishable from the Republican Neoconservative agenda," Dennis Kucinich

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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
93. HOW ARE THE MEMBERS OF THE DLC SELECTED?? This is an important question. Anyone know the answer??
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. By which states neoconservatives want to hold onto?
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #93
105. I think they just join.
I've been to candidate forums where someone who was running for a City Council seat was introduced as being named an outstanding, upcoming politician by the Democratic Leadership Council.

I don't think most people understood what that means, but I did.

I said, "Fuck that guy"!
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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
96. Jail is too good for them.

given all the misery they've purposefully caused.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
100. Take a look at this. Afterward, listen to them give their reasons
Edited on Sun Jul-20-08 02:46 PM by mmonk
for not doing anything in regard to the lies, naked unconstitutional power, and ask yourselves why we should put up with representation in our party that supports this point of view. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x159403
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #100
110. You are right, we shouldn't put up with it.
This administration has done what no other has done so openly.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
101. I guess we can safely call them "Bush huggers"?
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-08 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
102. There's a huge difference between blatant criminality and trumped up charges.
How stupid do they think we are?
The whole reason behind impeaching Bush-Cheney is that it is a very clear example of criminality and impeachable offenses, unlike the obviously ridiculous impeachment proceedings against Bill Clinton.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
106. Senator Schumer
Edited on Mon Jul-21-08 12:39 PM by alyce douglas
must be living in a detached society, if he believes voters do not want to hear about these crimes, he is highly mistaken.

or completely out of his mind.

our new motto should be: in the US you can get away with murder.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. Unless I missed it, I don't see ANY quotes of Schumer in this post....
....have I missed it?

If not, the concepts attributed to Schumer are merely biased interpretations of Schumer's comments elsewhere.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-22-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
108. Unfortunately Ford never said what is claimed in this post::

Specifically, when DID Ford say this? It is a subjective (and off-base) interpretation of the comments by Ford.

"Former Congressman Harold Ford appeared at the Netroots Nation conference yesterday, argued that Bush officials shouldn't be held accountable for crimes they committed while in office"
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. it's the "somebody said that somebody said" school of
argument. Par for the course for the OP.
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