Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Behold the Ruling Class Position on War Crimes, Torture and Presidential Pardons

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:24 PM
Original message
Behold the Ruling Class Position on War Crimes, Torture and Presidential Pardons
This is what passes for "serious," "reasonable," and "wise" argument among the soulless "moderates" who shape discourse and policy in the American republic: Bush should pardon all war criminals so the Democrats who suddenly find themselves cluelessly back in power and the Republicans who've abused it for the last 30 years can make nice and everything will go back to morning in America.

And as dumb and amoral as this constipated Broder-like advice may be, you can bet it mirrors what's on the minds of most of the Democrats and Republicans within spitting distance of power in the US. This is the future of torture in America: pardons, commissions, excuses, and, ultimately, forgetting.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/145842/output/print


The Truth About Torture

To get a full accounting of how U.S. interrogation methods were used, the president should give those accused of 'war crimes' a pass.

Stuart Taylor Jr.
NEWSWEEK
Updated: 2:26 PM ET Jul 12, 2008

Dark deeds have been conducted in the name of the United States government in recent years: the gruesome, late-night circus at Abu Ghraib, the beating to death of captives in Afghanistan, and the officially sanctioned waterboarding and brutalization of high-value Qaeda prisoners. Now demands are growing for senior administration officials to be held accountable and punished. Congressional liberals, human-rights groups and other activists are urging a criminal investigation into high-level "war crimes," including the Bush administration's approval of interrogation methods considered by many to be torture.

It's a bad idea. In fact, President George W. Bush ought to pardon any official from cabinet secretary on down who might plausibly face prosecution for interrogation methods approved by administration lawyers. (It would be unseemly for Bush to pardon Vice President Dick Cheney or himself, but the next president wouldn't allow them to be prosecuted anyway—galling as that may be to critics.) The reason for pardons is simple: what this country needs most is a full and true accounting of what took place. The incoming president should convene a truth commission, with subpoena power, to explore every possible misdeed and derive lessons from it. But this should not be a criminal investigation, which would only force officials to hire lawyers and batten down the hatches.

Pardons would further a truth commission's most important goals: to uncover all important facts, identify innocent victims to be compensated, foster a serious conversation about what U.S. interrogation rules should be, recommend legal reforms, pave the way for appropriate apologies and restore America's good name. The goals should not include wrecking the lives of men and women who made grievous mistakes while doing dirty work—work they had been advised by administration lawyers was legal, and which they believed was necessary to prevent terrorist mass murder.

A criminal investigation would only hinder efforts to determine the truth, and preclude any apologies. It would spur those who know the most to take the Fifth. Any prosecutions would also touch off years of partisan warfare. The lesson for occupants of the toughest government jobs—if the next administration could find people willing to fill them—would be that saving innocent lives is less important than covering their posteriors. Any hope of a civil conversation about lessons we need to learn would be dead.

...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Disgusting.
Taylor should be investigated for his own complicity in the crimes. Why else would he espouse such obvious insanity?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. "A criminal investigation would only hinder efforts to determine the truth"
Um, yeah.

:crazy:

I'd say we've reached stage 3

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you..."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Yeah, that makes perfect sense in our faith-based society...
These days, the truth comes to a select few in a vision or a kind of walking dream, featuring an idealized image of the virgin mother who was impregnated some 30 years ago by something called a holy ghost, which sounds like one hell of a lame excuse to me but Joseph the carpenter was a gullible sort it seems.

Mary's kind of the EmCee for the evening and, doing her best Ed Sullivan impersonation (which really sucks, truth be told), introduces the product of that virgin birth, the one, the only, the savior or all humankind and the star of our show...

Then a radiant image of Hay-zoos carrying a satchel labeled "The Truth" appears directly in front of this daydreamer's nose as Mary and her libidinous ghost fade to black. Hay-zoos reveals "The Truth" to his chosen instrument of revelation, who immediately scans it into his computer and posts it on his blog. And that's how we find out the truth these faith-based days.

Meanwhile, a team of skilled, veteran investigators working on the same case is busy getting nowhere using their conventional methods. They're stuck in the old "motive, means and opportunity" model, but the world has moved on, as we've seen above.

In fact, they find that the deeper they dig, the more they seem to be screwing things up. One turns to the other and, with a world-weary sigh, says, "You know, I'm getting the feeling that criminal investigations only hinder efforts to determine the truth."

The other guy looks at his long-time partner and figures the stress of the job has finally driven him batshit crazy. But then he quickly goes over the details of the investigation, trying to see things from his partner's point of view, and damn... there's something to it after all. Something's been getting in the way every step they take, every move they make. It's like somebody's watching them and planting false evidence or taking away useful stuff.

They decide to take a break, get a grease burger and a cup of coffee and relax for a half hour or so. Of course, the second they turn on the car radio, The Truth is all over the news on all stations. Even the hip hop DJs and shock jocks manage to shut the fuck up long enough to read the headline before getting back to the business of ruining the planetary audio spectrum.

So that's it. They both retire on full pension. One buys a fishing boat and runs charters out of a small resort toward the tip of Baja. The other eats his gun.

And that's the truth.


wp
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. ...then they imprison and torture you, then they kill you and everyone agrees it was your fault
Unless respect for reason is restored in the US, the last part of the quote -- wherein you win -- will never happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Really horrible. Confirms my distaste for Newsweek & Time reporting.
To casually talk about pardoning war criminals as the best course to avoid partisan battles is repugnant. If the Republican party is tarnished for years as the Party of Torture and Illegal Wars That Bankrupt our country financially and morally -- SO BE IT !

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Busholini will not pardon any War Criminals because
in his mind there are none to pardon. According to Busholini there was no torture, only "Enhanced Interrogation" to protect America. Even Sen Obama said that Busholini shouldn't be Impeached because there is no evidence of offenses that warrant Impeachment. If Sen. Obama becomes Pres. the past will remain as history & his Admin will focus on the present tasks & the future. Sometimes, there is no Justice & the guilty are not held accountable for their crimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Are they going to pardon Lyndie England then?
:puke:

The truth IS coming out about this...because Congress is making it legal, step by bloody step.

You're right though- this is the ruling class' opinion on the mater.

"It is an act of insanity and national humiliation to have a law prohibiting the President from ordering assassination."

Henry Kissinger
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. Must be
all that cake.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveFool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. wow, that is disgusting
What a slimy piece of shit. To enumerate the evils done as he did, including a mention of people beaten to death, and then insist that it's not pragmatic to seek justice... words just failed me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. K&R ....
"And as dumb and amoral as this constipated Broder-like advice may be, you can bet it mirrors what's on the minds of most of the Democrats and Republicans within spitting distance of power in the US. This is the future of torture in America: pardons, commissions, excuses, and, ultimately, forgetting."

:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. What a bunch of horseshit! Pardons will lead to the truth? Getthefuckoutofhere!
Sounds like Taylor Jr. needs a brain infusion STAT!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. Why is it that the torture advocates
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 10:04 PM by noise
refuse to stand behind their advocacy? Philippe Sands says he was surprised at the "pass the buck" mentality when he investigated the torture program. Yoo and Addington refused to stand behind the torture program when they testified. By that I mean if they thought it was legal and required (based on some BS unitary executive concept) they should have had the guts to say so without the "lawyerspeak."

Nobody got fired on 9/12 and low and behold some of the officials who didn't clock in for work in the months leading up to the attacks became advocates for torture. PATHETIC!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blecht Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. Beyond infuriating
I'm speechless. The fact that this Stuart Taylor Jr. person can show his face in public proves we are in deep shit as a nation.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blecht Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
15. Link to Article with Comments Here

Please go there and speak your mind: http://www.newsweek.com/id/145842


There's also a good take on all this here: http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9894.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beausoleil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. It seems obvious
that this hack has "pardons" confused with "immunity". There is no incentive to testify about anything if you've already been pardoned. Immunity is usually the tool used to gain information about illegal activities, pardons - not so much.

Q: You're pardoned. Now tell us the truth.

A: F*ck you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
17. Cowardly.Torture is NOT a learning curve. No war crime is..,
To be treated as some sort of after action review to figure out what went wrong and how to do better next time.


Nothing but cowardly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Waterboard the author.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC