SCOOTER - NOT THE FALL GUY

[radfringe]

I feel calling Scooter a "FALL GUY" is a misnomer.

To refer to someone as a Fall Guy implies some level of "innocence" and the person was somehow "set up"

Scooter is a willing participant, the only words which got him in hot water in the first place were his own words. The only words which has convicted him are his own words.

If anything, Scooter was and is willing to fall on the sword.

There has been plenty of time and opportunity for Scooter to "come clean".

The foam-at-the-mouth-rabid-republics are trying to spin the verdict as being some sort of stooopid weenie thing. Yet, just a few short years ago - they were screaming for impeachment of a president for lying.

As to the Scooter is a fall guy - who is he taking the fall for? Doesn't that imply there's more to the story? Falling down or Falling on the sword - what's Libby really hiding, who's he lying to protect?

[annabanana]

1. Poor Scoot. . a "sacrificial lamb"?

nope. .
He is their little Dutch boy..
Holding back the Sea...

[OneGrassRoot]

2. Interesting. Lots of discussion regarding "fall guy" and "scapegoat" yesterday

Tweety pointed out yesterday that "fall guy" indicates guilt, whereas scapegoat doesn't.

I just looked up both and they have the same meaning.

You're right - for him to be seen as a martyr isn't acceptable at all.

I wonder how others interpret the phrase "fall guy"? If they see it as someone who is guilty, taking all the blame for others, or an innocent person taking the blame? The juror who used that phrase yesterday clearly sees him as guilty, taking the full brunt for others who are equally guilty.

[H2O Man]

3. Right.

"Fall guy" in no way implies he was innocent. Quite the opposite.

[WinkyDink]

5. My dictionary says nothing about ACTUAL guilt at all; the definition

of "fall guy" is "scapegoat", which definition is "one that is made to bear the blame OF OTHERS".

[OneGrassRoot]

8. Yes, that's what I found as well. However, I'm curious how

others PERCEIVE the phrase, regardless of the dictionary definition.

Maybe lots of people are checking the dictionary this morning. LOL.

[radfringe]

11. scapegoat or fall guy

implies to me some sort of "innocent bystander" facade, like he was in the wrong place at the wrong time

there is also some implication of being an unwitting participant who was "set up" or "framed" or otherwise coerced into taking the blame

Scooter was not some hapless bystander who stepped off the curb and had a Cheney bus run over him. No, Scooter went purposely into the road and directed Cheney where to park the bus

[H2O Man]

12. Right.

If one looks in a thesaurus, there are many ways the word has been used. It is important to have both the dictionary definition, and to know the way people generally use it.

Either way, Scooter Libby is a convicted felon.

[WinkyDink]

4. Thank you. That's why that camera-hog juror Collins irritated me no end.

They "felt compassion" for Libby.
"Where was Rove?"

WTH difference did it make? LIBBY LIED, and he is an ADULT MAN. Not since Nuremburg has "just following orders" been a LEGAL or MORAL defense.

I assume Collins is working on his book deal right about now....

[BlueJazz]

6. Since most of us are sure that Libby knows a LOT more about..

...who the "others" are, who also should be in Jail, will an "Accident" happen to him while incarcerated?

[sendero]

7. I agree...

.... just because he's the only one who got convicted doesn't make him the fall guy. He was apparently the only one stupid enough to lie to the grand jury and obstruct justice.

Sure, Rove and Cheney are in it up to their eyeballs, but clearly Fitz figured out long ago that getting a conviction for "outing a covert" was next to impossible the way the law is written.

Libby might have thought his actions were taken to protect the rest of his gang, but I seriously doubt that he was asked to lie.

[tanyev]

9. It may be misleading about the extent of Scooter's guilt, but I think the fall guy talk

is on the whole a good thing. GMA's coverage this morning talked quite a bit about how much Cheney had to do with directing the whole operation and Rove's name was mentioned too. It's better than crowing about how everything has been taken care of with Scooter's guilty verdict.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Hey, EXCELLENT POINT! Yes, it keeps the truth about...

others being complicit in the discussion. That it doesn't end here.

Excellent way of viewing it.

[radfringe]

13. on the other hand

by making Scooter an object of sympathy would make it all the easier for bush to pardon him without much of a fuss from the public

[tanyev]

16. I suspect that pardon is inevitable no matter what the public reaction is.

The only question is when it will happen.

[porphyrian]

14. I thought this was the fall guy...

[Geek_Girl]

15. If Scooter is Chaney's Chaney

then we got someone pretty high up on the neo-con org chart. No he's not the fall guy he most likely is right below the top dog, who is really running the presidency. And Obviously Chaney's Chaney is falling on his sword for Chaney.

[Solly Mack]

17. I view it more in terms of Libby taking one for the team

I don't believe Libby was "hung out to dry"
I believe they all knew it could come down to this and that Libby will be well compensated for his troubles (Oh, he might waiver - but in the end, Libby will play ball as usual)

Should this progress, Cheney will be pardoned.

Libby was the smart pick to take the hit all around.

[Beausoir]

18. Not one ounce of sympathy for Scooter. Remember...the "Grown-ups" are in charge.

He's a grown man who lies as easily as he takes in air.

I'm actually supposed to feel sorry for this guy? He's had chance after to chance to come clean, stop lying and get the real story out. He couldn't rise to the task.

He deserves every second of time he gets to spend in the slammer.

[KharmaTrain]

19. This Is Where The Wilson Trial Begins...

Scooter is a "Fall Guy" only in the limited scope of wontingly lying to the FBI and a Grand Jury to protect his boss from being dragged into this specfic inquiry. At the time, they thought if they "kept their stories straight", the Prosecutor wouldn't be able to go forward and "no one would be the wiser". The underestimated Fitzgerald and the one thing that boils a prosecutor's butt...perjury...especially a laywer doing it in front of a Grand Jury.

What will be interesting is how the information of this trial will now be introduced into the Wilson suit. Thanks to the Paula Jones case, they can now compell crashcart, libby, rove, fleischer, armitage and the whole cabal and let's see if their stories hold up. While Fitzgerald has "closed shop"...this doesn't preculde this civil suit from picking up on the "underlying" obstruction...and if perjury comes from this phase...shop can easily be re-opened.

[radfringe]

20. kick

[seemslikeadream]

21. more like Fall Diversion