How many here are just waiting for the election to come and go and then?

[lonestarnot]

What if nothing changes?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Either way, there will be changes, I think...

With McCain, things will be as they are now, but much worse...

And obviously, with Obama, things will slowly start to get better...

:shrug:

[lonestarnot]

4. The second choice of course is the only choice and I don't have a problem with

anything I've been hearing from Obama. It is the blue dogs I am worried about. Do you think they will remain and vote with the remaining bushitlers until we manage to get rid of them?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

10. You got me there...

I have no idea...

[frogcycle]

2. if what you mean is

what if McCain is elected and nothing changes, well, probably it will be the end of the US as a constitutional democracy


if what you mean is what if Obama is elected and nothing changes, that is a pretty pointless and counterproductive bit of speculation.

[lonestarnot]

3. Well it is possible that dems won't let him make the changes that are needed

if they continue to carry on like they are now.

[LakeSamish706]

8. If we manage to pick up substantial seats in both houses, I think that things...

will change big time. My hope is that we get rid of both the current Senate leader and house speaker for starters.

[LaStrega]

14. Vote 'em out!

buh-bye blue dogs

[frogcycle]

30. sure, that and also whistles point are valid

but at this juncture, discussion of 'what will you do when...' is just inflammatory and pointless

I will grab a pitchfork and storm the Bastille along with the rest if/when it proves to be called for. I suspect it may be. But right now, the best hope is that Obama will get elected along with a lot of new dems not already in big business' pocket, and We the People will take back the country. Focusing on doing that is a whole lot more useful than speculating on what to do if it proves impossible.

[whistle]

6. Not if you believe that there really is a secret government running the government!

[whistle]

5. That is the real mystery or is it?

[Selatius]

7. I think if nothing really changes, I'd seriously contemplate on simply withdrawing my consent.

That is, I'd seriously consider stop voting. Government operates with the consent of the governed. If a large number of people stopped voting--and they already have--it's a sign of a "breach of contract" between those who wield power and those who are subject to that power. Government is not entitled to anyone's vote, and that applies as well to both parties or all parties under the sun.

[lunatica]

9. There's a flaw in your argument

The less people vote the few people who do vote decide what the government does. It's how Arnold the Governator got voted in. Most Californians stayed home because they didn't want to vote for anyone and so Arnold's avid fans voted him in because he kicked ass in the Terminator movies.

[Selatius]

12. But if nothing changes, that's not an indication that people should simply continue voting.

If anything, that's a sign of tyranny using the ballot box to generate the illusion of democracy. Imagine having to choose between aggressive military expansionism and merely maintaining current colonial possessions without adding more when you really want to give up empire and end the destructive wars.

I'm not saying that's what Obama wants vs. McCain, but there comes a point where voting doesn't work anymore if it is shown that nothing changed. The government only exists at the pleasure of the people, and people can be pushed too far.

[frogcycle]

32. The Founding Fathers didn't vote George III out of office, did they?

"Not voting" would not accomplish the goal; expressing oneself via something other than a vote would be the next step, wouldn't it?

[lonestarnot]

13. But you will still pay your taxes?

[beltanefauve]

17. I prefer

the "torches and pitchforks" method myself. :evilgrin:

[ladjf]

20. I'm sympathetic with your method. However, we may have to be

more devious and drastic than that.

[Wiley50]

22. That's why I'm happy with the SC decision

Pitchforks and torches just don't cut it anymore
In practice, Guns might not either
unless there are enough of them
But at least it's legal to possess them in DC now
Before, if you simply had it, they had recourse
now they don't

I've got a bad feeling about this.

Face it Folks!
1984 came a few years late
but just as nasty
in it's own way

I think everyone should own a gun and know how to use it

And I hope they never need to

[ladjf]

11. If nothing changes,there has definitely been a permanent coup d'etat.

Upon fully realizing that, Americans would be forced to take drastic and desperate measures.

[lonestarnot]

15. Sheet!

I was afraid someone would say that.

[beltanefauve]

18. See post 17

:evilgrin:

[lonestarnot]

23. Well I have those!

:evilgrin: And a barbie with a spit too! another :evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Nothing happens, then it is up to the American people

I wonder if Americans have it in them any longer

Though I also know that you can only push so long and so far before any people find their spine and connect dots

I wonder if I will be alive when the people finally take it upon themselves though

For the record I don't expect any changes. not after the last seven years and in particular the last two

Opposition party my ass

[stillcool]

19. I dread the election..

the last two were bad enough but this one...oy. I'm firmly in the one day at a time thing these days. Otherwise I would be more afraid of living than dying.

[lonestarnot]

24. Can't come soon enough for me! I always like to face the problem.

Look it in the eye and decide what to do and do it.

[Swamp Rat]

25. Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes! ... Turn and face the strain.

Ch-ch-Changes. :D

[lonestarnot]

28. Snort!

:rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Politics is highly overrated as an agent of change.

As a card carrying cynic, my expectations of politicians to do much of anything of merit, is minimal.

About the best we can hope for from such critters is that the next boss won't do as much damage as the current one.

Things will really change when enough people, literally, can't afford to live decently and do more than simply mark a ballot in hopes the new daddy will fix things.

Until then, the politicians will devote themselves, as usual, to whatever seems popular and profitable.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

26. Simone Weil's message

"Oppression that is clearly inexorable and invincible does not give rise to revolt but to submission,"
must be a source of great comfort to "the new daddy."

[fputtz]

27. I'm a bit concerned that the assholes down in Austin might really

take it out on the poor, the indigent, minorities, anyone that is generally regarded as 'undesirables' by the average fucktard down here, and really take it out hard on them if Obama wins; but it's a necessary evil, I suppose.

I suspect that there might even be at least talk of secession; they are truly that fanatical, amazing as that may sound.

As for what I might do personally after the election if Obama wins: I might sneak out in the middle of the night and piss on my neighbor's "Bush" yard sign, so that there would be a little something extra for them when they removed it the following day.

[lonestarnot]

29. LOL!

Welcome to DU! :applause:

[L0oniX]

31. I will join the revolution.

"I ‘Don’t See How It Matters’ That I Don’t Know The Price Of Gas" --John McCain

"I disagree with what the majority of the American people want." John McCain

[blues90]

33. Changes I see will be the same old thing with a new slogan

They just change the name and the face that's all . Politicians are puppets , it's who is pulling the strings that matter and this never seems to change other than there are more of the puppet masters now.

[ThePowerofWill]

34. I've been wondering about the whole "be careful what you wish for" angle.

The saying often rings true. I have not seen much from the Dem's in a long time to make me think there will be much big change in the status quo.

If the Dem's get more control in the Senate, increase their seats in the House, coupled with the Presidency, then they have carte blanche to do as they please. Who says it would be to our benefit?

I have been waiting, and hoping for this almost 8yrs now. Given that scenario is almost upon us i am getting a bit nervous.

[KG]

35. if?

[Blue_In_AK]

36. Changes will be subtle and slow.

I'm not holding my breath for anything major. We're just in too deep a hole.

[leftofthedial]

37. there will be some minor good changes

but no real change...and we will not get back the rights that have been taken from us, unless we take them back ourselves.

the oligarchy will still rule. their corporations will still control.

[OnyxCollie]

38. They Thought They Were Free...

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in
upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in
my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying 'Jew swine,' collapses it all at
once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under
your nose. The world you live in- Your nation, your people- is not the world you were
born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the
shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But
the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying
it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a system which rules without
responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the
beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a
succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it,
without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more
comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you
would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in
Germany, could have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or,
more accurately, what you haven't done (for that was all that was required of most of us:
that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the
university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A
small matter, a matter of hiring this man or  that, and you hired this one rather than
that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised
beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or 'adjust' your principles. Many
tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your
life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to
heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the
world knows or cares to know."

They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45
by Milton Mayer

"All past oligarchies have fallen from power either because they ossified or because they grew soft. Either they became stupid and arrogant, failed to adjust themselves to changing circumstances, and were overthrown; or they became liberal and cowardly, made concessions when they should have used force, and once again were overthrown. ... It is in the ranks of the Party, and above all the Inner Party, that the true war enthusiasm is found. ... If human equality is to be for ever averted -- if the High, as we have called them, are to keep their places permanently -- then the prevailing mental condition must be controlled insanity."

1984
by George Orwell

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'

Faith, Certainty and the Presidency of George W. Bush
By Ron Suskind

'

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the state can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie ... The truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the state." --Joseph Goebbels, minister of propaganda in Nazi Germany, 1933-1945

The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre. --Frank Zappa, 1977

But wait, what's this? A glimmer of hope from an unlikely source?

"Over the past two and a half years, I have seen tyranny, dishonesty, corruption and depravity of types I never thought possible," Gonzales said in prepared remarks at a Hispanic Heritage Month ceremony at Bolling Air Force Base. "I've seen things I didn't know man was capable of." "But I will tell you here and now that these things still leave me hopeful," he said. "Because every time I see a glimmer of the evil man can do, I see the defenders of liberty, truth and justice who stand ready to fight it."
-- Resigning Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, September 14, 2007

Bring it back home, Mahatma.

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS." --M.K. Gandhi

[Individualist]

40. Excellent and timely excerpts...

yet voters will continue voting according to the dictates of the corporatocracy. :cry:

Then, "Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or,
more accurately, what you haven't done..."

[spanone]

39. this congress, both sides of the aisle are soo fucking worhless...nothing may change

[Marr]

41. If Wall Street thinks that Obama will be any sort of hindrance to them,

the election will be stolen and handed to McCain. The establishment doesn't fear the population anymore. And really, why should they? What, really, will happen? Same thing that happened the last two times, of course. The corporate media will ignore it, and we'll coast right into another 4 years of corporate rule.

Something tells me the only way the US will ever emerge from this self-perpetuating process is by going through something truly horrible, like another Great Depression.