Toyota exec tries to cool plug-in fever

[DainBramaged]

A top Toyota technology expert today urged people to temper expectations for what plug-in hybrid vehicles can accomplish.

Bill Reinert said that the demands of real-world driving, such as rapid acceleration on freeway entrances, could dramatically reduce the all-electric range of plug-ins, whenever they hit the market.

"When we see the (claims of) 100 mile-per-gallon stuff, not everybody's going to get 100 miles per gallon," Reinert said.

He is national manager of the advanced technology group for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. He was on a panel at Washington conference on plug-ins and afterward spoke to Automotive News.

A plug-in hybrid would have a more robust battery pack than a traditional gasoline-electric hybrid. In theory, with recharging from electrical outlets, it could operate much longer on electric-only power than other hybrids.

Proponents contend that an all-electric range of 40 miles would satisfy the daily needs of most drivers, giving them the equivalent of 100 mpg or more and dramatically cutting petroleum demands.

But just as some consumers have been disappointed by the real-world mileage of regular hybrids, plug-ins may not live up to those high hopes, Reinert said.

Green car wars

General Motors is planning to have the plug-in hybrid Chevrolet Volt on the market in 2010. Toyota has said it expects to have a plug-in ready for fleet customers by 2010.

The high-profile conference, organized by the Brookings Institution think tank and Google.org, dealt with the question of what government's role should be in promoting plug-ins.

Mark Fields, Ford Motor Co. president for the Americas, said in an address that significant government funding is needed for development of domestic production of advanced batteries and for retooling of plants.

Government also needs to resolve how people pay for recharging, if it is not done at home, and to establish a recharging infrastructure, especially for people without garages.

Help from Washington?

Bruce Andrews, Ford vice president of government relations, told Automotive News that near-term prospects for tax measures to benefit plug-ins are not good.

But next year, if Congress enacts legislation to cap greenhouse gases, the sale of emissions permits could provide a source of revenue for programs benefiting advanced technology vehicles, he said.

Tom Kuhn, president of the Edison Electric Institute, representing utility companies, said at the conference that big changes in policies are possible because "people in this country are mad."

Felix Kramer, founder of the California Cars Initiative and an early proponent of plug-in hybrids, said, "It is time to electrify transportation as much as possible."

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http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080612/ANA02/172147151/1186

[Wapsie B]

1. But Bill, the market demands it.

The market demands that we have an electric car that can do this and more. 40 mile range? Hell I'm looking for a 400 mile range. Like the tennis shoe commercials, just do it.

[DainBramaged]

3. And I want to win the lottery

[greenman3610]

2. um, I haven't been disappointed with my Prius performance

45 to 52 mpg on the highway. works for me.
I don't doubt the guy, but Toyota has a history of
trying to damp expectations - its an m. o. of theirs.

Plug ins won't have to get 150 mpg to be game changers.
70 or 80 mpg would kick things off pretty well.

on edit. btw - remember the 40 mile range is in
"all electric" mode, the Chevy volt will go the 40, and
then a small gas powered charging engine kicks in and
you get a 600 mile range.
The real advantage is in day to day commuting, where even a
20 mile battery range would be a huge advantage to most
people.

[DainBramaged]

4. MPG is not what a plug in s all about it's the range per charge

range per charge in extreme heat, extreme cold, terrain, drain by other electrical systems in the vehicle, gross vehicle weight. No one here wants to consider all of those factors.


On edit

Of course YOU aren't disappointed, but taking all of the factors into the equation above, I am sure there are owners who aren't even close to your overall MPG.. The magic words you all forget, YOUR MILLAGE MAY VARY!

[skids]

5. "Tack-on plugins" will be no miracle for highway driving...

The Prius is engineered as a hybrid, not an EV, so it's electric motors
are too small for an extra battery pack to do much more than 100MPG
on highway driving. City driving is another matter, though. It Toyota
drags it's feet I'm betting we'll see a lot of taxi cab companies
rolling on up to the doors of Hymotion to get their fleet post-factory
kits.

But if Toyota were to engineer it as a PHEV and put in larger motors,
I'm sure they could beat that expectation.

(Actually I just visited the Hymotion site and A123 has started direct
consumer sales not just corporate fleet orders... nice.)

[DainBramaged]

6. $9995 for a Prius. What's the payoff? In years?

Does it make any sense to add this to a Prius? Hymotion does not mention payoff anywhere. And what happens to your Toyota warranty? And when it breaks (and it surely will) you HAVE to go to a local Hymotion dealer for repairs, IF the repairs are needed on the adjunct pack.

Too risky for too little gain IMHO.

[skids]

7. Not for cash crunchers yet...

For this to make "financial sense" you'd have to do a whole lot of driving. The only people that could make the numbers work at current gas prices would be people who do several short trips a day with time to top up between them, unless there's a subsidy or rebate for them. So
basically pizza delivery guys might want to look at it and run the numbers, assuming they could get a socket outside the store.

The L5s are a 5KW pack that seems to discharge to 40% so it's 3KW, about 1/6 to 1/4 a gallon of gas per charge after the "internal
combustion tax" to convert gas to equivalent electricity. For comparison the normal hybrid pack is 1.5kW but it does not discharge nearly that deep. The cells they are using fast charge in 15 minutes but they likely baby them and require at least 1 hour of charge time for a full depth charge.

Right now these are for people looking primarily to reduce their carbon footprint, not to save cash, so still a "vanity item" at this point. But the direct sales to consumers rather than corporate fleets is a good step forward and hopefully there will be enough demand from techie tree huggers to push sales volume up and bring prices down -- if they had not bought the original Prius models for pollution purposes when gas was still cheap, we wouldn't have such a sucessfull gas sipper on the market today, after all.

The formula for payoff all changes (fast) with gas prices and the product price.

As for the warranty we'll have to see how that plays out. Toyota's seen the unit and were impressed by it and didn't raise a big ruckus, I recall reading. As for how reliable the units are it is hard to say with only 50 test units on the road -- you really have to get into mass production before you can assess unit quality. However, the cells themselves are getting rave reviews for being pretty damn hard to ruin among the RC car hobbyists, and the rest is all just electronics. From what I know of the way this particular unit works, you could probably just disconnect it if it broke and drive as a normal Prius untl you could get to the dealer.

[DainBramaged]

8. BUT, knowing how Toyota tried to blame OWNERS for the sludge problem

with some of their engines just a few years ago, even people who followed regular maintenance schedules, I'm not so sure they would take kindly to having this battery attached to THEIR electronics, and could easily claim the extra voltage is bad for their car.

[skids]

12. From the hymotion blog: you're covered...

Since our L5 PCM product availability announcement, Toyota has officially stated to the media that the Prius\u2019 factory warranty will not be automatically voided due to installation of the L5. Toyota has further said that if the L5 creates a problem with a warranted system then Toyota may refuse to provide warranty service if the L5 is the source of the problem.

These statements from Toyota are consistent with our own position on how the Toyota factory warranty will be affected by installation of the L5. We have consistently said that Toyota can\u2019t automatically void the Prius\u2019 factory warranty simply because an L5 is installed. We have also noted that if the L5 causes a problem that would otherwise be covered by Toyota\u2019s warranty then Toyota may refuse warranty coverage. Rest assured that in this event, A123 will pay for the cost of the otherwise warranted repair for our customers.

http://www.a123systems.com/blog/hymotion/

(EDIT: heh. the hymotion installer in my region is an official toyota dealer)

[dysfunctional press]

9. what's needed most is a 'commuter car'...

that people can drive to and from work, ideallly on one charge for the round trip, or at least one way each way per charge, with a means for re-charging while they are at work.

it doesn't seem like too much to ask.

[DainBramaged]

10. Nope, but remember, employers will not take kindly to supporting this

if it costs them. Debit card capable charging stations would be the way to go.

[dysfunctional press]

11. the chargers would be best if people could charge them while they're working...

charging a battery won't be nearly as quick a procedure as filling a gas tank. it takes a little time.