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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:40 PM
Original message
Conyers Asking for Rebuttals to his Objections to Impeachment
Edited on Mon Jun-09-08 06:49 PM by Time for change
The National Impeachment Network reports that on June 5th, John Conyers agreed to meet with a group of CodePinkers to discuss impeachment, challenging them to try to rebut his objections to impeachment.

We all know that Conyers has very ambivalent feelings about impeachment. On the one hand, we know that he would love to see it done, as proven by his great 345 page report of August 2006, “The Constitution in Crisis – The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, Cover-ups in the Iraq War, and Illegal Domestic Surveillance”, in which he lays out an airtight case for impeachment, with 1,401 references. In the introduction to his report, Congress thanks the blogosphere for all the help they provided him in the writing of his report:

I would like to give credit to the “blogosphere” for its myriad and invaluable contributions to me and my staff. Absent the assistance of “blogs” and other internet based media, it would have been impossible to assemble all the information, sources and other materials necessary to the preparation of this report. Whereas the so-called “mainstream media” has frequently been willing to look past the abuses of the Bush administration, the blogosphere has proven to be a new and important bulwark of our Nation’s first amendment freedoms.

But on the other hand, he is very worried about the consequences of a failed impeachment attempt, and also he is wary about going against the Democratic Party leadership on this issue. His ambivalence can be clearly seen in a transcript and video of a January 2008 interview with Rob Kall of Op-Ed News, where Conyers actually says that “impeachment is ON the table”, but for various reasons he is reluctant to proceed “at this time”. Conyers’ current objections to impeachment are:

 The majority of Americans don’t want impeachment.
 The corporate media will slay us.
 There is not enough time.
 There are not enough votes.
 It could cost us the 2008 election.

The following are my answers to those objections.


The majority of Americans don’t want impeachment

You can see from this list of polls, most which were obtained when George Bush was more popular than he is now, that the percent of Americans responding positively to impeachment polls varies usually between over 30% and over 50%, depending upon how the poll is worded. At the high end, polls that say “hold accountable through impeachment” or “consider impeaching” show a clear majority in favor, such as 53% to 42% in this poll, or 52% to 43% in this one. At the other end, polls which actually mention removal from office usually show only around 30% to 45% in favor.

There are two very important things to consider about these polls. First, holding an impeachment hearing is the equivalent of Congress “considering impeachment” – which most Americans favor. Polls which actually mention removal from office are understandably less likely to be met with a favorable response because there are many Americans who feel uncomfortable enough with what Bush and Cheney are doing to our country that they want to see impeachment pursued, but they are not yet convinced enough that they are willing to say that they should be removed from office.

More important is the fact that most Americans have little or no understanding of the extent and seriousness of the many crimes that Bush and Cheney have committed, because of the appalling lack of substantive coverage by our corporate news media. Once impeachment hearings get underway, our corporate news media will be forced to cover them. Most Americans will then become much better educated about the issues than they are now, and the percent that are in favor of removal from office will likely go through the roof, as happened with Richard Nixon when his crimes were exposed during the televised Watergate hearings. The fact that nearly 50% of Americans already are in favor of impeachment, despite the lack of substantive media coverage, should be seen as very ominous for the Bush administration.


The corporate media will slay us

Undoubtedly, most of the corporate media will indeed attempt to slay us, just as they always attempt to slay Democrats, especially around election time. In other words, most corporate talking heads will attempt to spin the situation to make the impeachment hearings appear to be spiteful acts of vengeance or a dirty political scheme unworthy of serious statesmen.

But it’s a lot easier to get away with spinning things that people don’t get to see for themselves. When our corporate media repeatedly said during the 2000 election campaign that Al Gore was a liar, most uninformed people had no way to judge that statement, so some chose to believe it and others didn’t. But when people actually see on television the evidence presented against Bush and Cheney, it will be very difficult for the corporate media to spin that evidence into something other than the high crimes that it points to.

It all comes down to the question of whether or not the Democratic Party is willing to let the corporate media define the two parties and what they stand for, or whether they choose to fight back and present their case directly to the American people. Ultimately, if they choose to let the corporate media define politics in our country, the wealthy and powerful corporate elite will become our masters even more than they are today. That is the road to fascism. We are already well along that road. If we don’t fight back we will soon reach the point where turning back will be next to impossible without a violent upheaval that few Americans are ready for.


There is not enough time

The impeachment hearings of Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton took very little time. In Bush and Cheney’s case, a vast amount of evidence has already been accumulated. In fact, John Conyers himself summed up the evidence in his 2006 report as follows:

The report finds there is substantial evidence the President, the Vice President and other high ranking members of the Bush Administration misled Congress and the American people … The Report concludes that a number of these actions amount to prima facie evidence that federal criminal laws have been violated… The Report also concludes that these charges clearly rise to the level of impeachable conduct.

And a vast amount of additional evidence has accumulated since Conyers conducted his investigation and made that statement. In other words, the evidence is already there. It is just a matter of getting it together and presenting it to the American people.


There are not enough votes

In many ways the argument that there are not enough votes for conviction of Bush and Cheney for impeachable offenses is analogous to a prosecuting attorney who is considering an indictment for murder deciding against doing so because he believes there are not enough votes on the jury. That is an absurd argument because nobody expects the votes to be there until the trial has been conducted. But admittedly, my example of the murder trial is a somewhat different situation than impeachment because impeachment hearings and trials in the Senate for conviction of impeachable offenses are generally more political in nature than simple murder trials. So let’s consider this from the political angle.

Granted, the current crop of Senate Republicans are largely hard core conservatives who don’t give a damn about our Constitution or the Bush/Cheney administration’s repeated violations of it. So why bother even trying? Aside from the fact that it is the right thing to do, and that failing to even try to impeach Bush and Cheney would condone their numerous criminal violations of our Constitution, there are a couple of other good reasons to discount what some consider to be the current lack of votes for conviction in the Senate.

As conservative and conscienceless as most of our Republican Senators are, most of them want to remain in the Senate. When the American public is presented over a period of several weeks or months with the accumulated evidence of high crimes committed by the Bush/Cheney administration, and as their outrage grows and Bush’s poll numbers plummet to new lows, I suspect that a number of Republican Senators will opt for self-preservation at the expense of loyalty to a sinking presidential administration.

But if they don’t, at least we will have one big consolation: Just imagine what our new Senate will look like in 2009.


It could cost us the 2008 election

Consider the attempt to impeach Richard Nixon. (The Clinton impeachment hearings are not comparable because Clinton had done nothing that could be considered an impeachable offense, and most Americans were well aware of that). The Nixon impeachment hearings, on the other hand, provide the most similar example in U.S. history to potential Bush/Cheney impeachment hearings, except that Bush and Cheney’s crimes are more numerous and serious than Nixon’s.

As a result of evidence obtained from hearings of the Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities to investigate events surrounding the break-in at the Watergate Hotel and other abuses of Presidential power by Richard Nixon, House Democrats initiated impeachment hearings against Nixon in October 1973. As impeachment hearings progressed and as more and more evidence of impeachable offenses accumulated, U.S. public opinion turned against Nixon, and eventually his own Republican Party turned against him, thus forcing him to resign in August 1974. In the 1974 mid-term elections Democrats gained 48 seats in the House and 5 seats in the Senate. In order to “heal our nation’s wounds”, our new President, Gerald Ford, appointed by Nixon as Vice President shortly prior to Nixon’s resignation, preemptively pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed that were related to the impeachment charges against him. Many believe that that pardon was a major factor in Ford’s defeat in the 1976 Presidential election.


In conclusion

Elizabeth Holtzman, former U.S. Congresswoman from New York, who was an active participant on the U.S. House Committee handling the impeachment of Richard Nixon, had this to say on the issue of George Bush’s impeachment:

Our country's Founders provided the power of impeachment to prevent the subversion of the Constitution. President Bush has subverted and defied the Constitution in many ways. His defiance and his subversion continue.

Failure to impeach Bush would condone his actions. It would allow him to assume he can simply continue to violate the laws on wiretapping and torture and violate other laws as well without fear of punishment. He could keep the Iraq War going or expand it even further than he just has on the basis of more lies, deceptions and exaggerations… Worse still, if Congress fails to act, Bush might be emboldened to believe he may start another war, perhaps against Iran, again on the basis of lies, deceptions and exaggerations.

There is no remedy short of impeachment to protect us from this President, whose ability to cause damage in the next two years is enormous. If we do not act against Bush, we send a terrible message of impunity to him and to future Presidents and mark a clear path to despotism and tyranny. Succeeding generations of Americans will never forgive us for lacking the nerve to protect our democracy.

Those words are just as applicable today as they were last year.

Since John Conyers is welcoming arguments that would help him make up his mind, if you agree that Bush and Cheney should be impeached, please consider writing Conyers to tell him so. In doing so, please feel free to use any combination of the arguments in this post, verbatim, or with any changes you feel are appropriate. Conyers’ contact information is included here.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. How many e-mails does Conyers require before he does something?
We've been going through this drill for years. Why can't he use his own knowledge and sense of fairness to figure it out? Why isn't he defending the Constitution, and us? He's been implored to do the right thing for years. This is yet another stalling tactic imo.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Dennis is reading the articles of impeachment as I type
Go Dennis.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I know! I'm listening. nt
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Go Dennis! You are a real patriot!!!!!! K and R
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Nobody knows how many
But my guess is that if he sees what he considers enough support he'll do it. Furthermore, this may be one of the most opportune times to give him another nudge, with Dennis reading the articles of impeachment now.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Remember Wexler's petition where he got
hundreds of thousands of signatures to impeach? I'm sure Conyers was aware of that. Ask David Swanson; he's been on Conyers' case for years about impeachment, as has many other people. He knows how we feel. But I'll not rain any longer on this parade.
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Fireweed247 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
61. Where is Wexler and why isn't he speaking out in support of Kucinich?
Conyers doesn't give a damn, he is only taking names.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. 900,000,000 - three from every man, woman, and child in the nation
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. agree. i'm not calling conyers, or sending him one more fucking email
he knows what the fuck to do. i'm so done w/him.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
69. He's waiting it out. they all are, the cowards. they are all in violation
of their oath to the Constitution.
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trashcanistanista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. It is the right thing to do. It's the least they can do.
We have our nominee. The time is now to take this motherf&#@&* OUT!!!!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well, OK.
"The majority of Americans don’t want impeachment"

The majority of Americans didn't want Civil Rights. Where were you on that particular issue?

"The corporate media will slay us"

What are you? Chickenshit?

"There is not enough time"

First you stall, now you whine about time?

"There are not enough votes"

So do you not prosecute criminals, because maybe not all jurors will find the defendent guilty?

"It could cost us the 2008 election"

So you'll let a war criminal off the hook because of your own political expediency?

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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Ok .. you saved me some time with your good rebuttal....
Conyers' excuses are weak and have nothing to do with upholding the Constitution
and the rule of law.

Conyers is all talk and no action.

Not one person has been arrested convicted or tried out of his committee.

Even when they lied to Congress or admit guilt.

NOT ONE...

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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Pithy!
You should go with the Code Pink delegation.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
68. Very well said! Thank you. nt
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VP505 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. Conyers is just doing the D.C two step,
he is using his challenge to play dodge ball. He knows all too well that the case for impeachment has already been laid out, some of it if not most by him, personally I thing nobody including Conyers has the balls to stand up and say DO IT, they are looking for someone expendable to bite the bullet, that way they have an out.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. both public opinion and the votes in Congress will move in favor of impeachment once
the hearings start and the media can't avoid it.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Rhenquist presided over Clinton's impeachment.
Could they somehow avoid having Roberts (or Alito or Scalia) preside over Bush/Cheney's?
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mconvente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Nope
Constitution mandates that the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presides over impeachment trials in the Senate.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
37. No need
All that "presides" means is that he sees to an orderly process. He has no power to effect the proceedings.

In a Senate impeachment trial the Senators are both judge and jury. They make and enforce all the rules. It is an entirely political process, that merely has -- by custom -- the trappings of a legal proceeding.

---
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
56. Yes, it will be avoided
Roberts will not preside over Bush and Cheney's impeachment. Speaker Pelosi promised that there would be no impeachment and Conyers has strung along the impeachment activists for the past year and a half.

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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. OF COURSE the republicans are going to do something to tilt things to their advantage.
Edited on Mon Jun-09-08 08:18 PM by Peake
They'll use impeachment, or anything, against us. Double-bind. Watch them profit on oil pricing and screw us if we fight back. It's the bully's way; we have to understand this and prevent it.

Republicans desire a single-party government, and by single-party government, I mean they want to play kings and queens, and we get to be their toys (see: Katrina, etc.). We can either allow this to continue as it is already going, or fight and deal with the traps and tricks. They've forced the peace-lovers into fighting for peace and freedom.

"Sometimes the price of peace is victory over those who don't want it." -jms
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oldskool Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Something smells
Smells like INHERENT CONTEMPT and TREASON IN TIME OF WAR!!!!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. I've called and written to Conyers before and I'll call and write again!!
The Democrats are just being Democrats. Scared, whiny, political cowards who won't take ANY risks unless the polls show they are in the vast majority. And unfortunately we've got a bunch of them who have been complicit in most, if not all, of these treacherous acts.

Pitiful. Downright frickin pitiful.

We get the government we deserve.


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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
18. Conyers should be sitting in the chamber,
Or watching c-span in his office right now, watching Dennis.

He's leaving no doubt.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. This is so ridiculous and yet so much of the honest picture that it's hysterically funny . ..
in a sad way ---

I'm very big for impeachment --- can't understand why it didn't happen immediately as Dems took over Congress ---

Actually, the Constitution CALLS for it --- we have everything and MORE, including, IMO, conspiracy
between president and VP as also mentioned by founders ---

However, as I once again try to give consideration to Conyer's arguments --- I mean, after all, he's there and I'm not ....

I think . . . wait a minute . . . is Conyers running for re-election in '08?

The first and most ironic bit of all this is that the GOP had no problem in going forward with a frame-up of Clinton based on a PERSONAL/CONSENTUAL affair --

VERSUS these criminal outrages by Bush which has brought us to an "illegal" war of aggression, TORTURE, wiretapping, on and on -- !!! Where's the comparison. HOW could the corporate-press
possibly argue against such an impeachment?

I mean, SIGNING STATEMENTS -- A L O N E -- should be a primary reason for the Congress to impeach Bush . . . they pass legislation and he annuls it????

In fact, the Constitution says that the Congress has the responsibility of ensuring that the legislation they pass is carried out with "the spirit and intent" with which it was passed.

!!! Anything about that unclear --- ?
Shouldn't Congress be highly interested in protecting and securing the laws that they pass?
And in seeing that the public's interests in those laws is protected?????

MEANWHILE, if the Congress doesn't move on citing this president's impeachable offenses and trying to hold him responsible, what will the public think of our Constitution, our laws, war, fascism????

WHAT WILL BE LEFT of our Constituion and laws????
How much further foward will it impel the fascism on our doorstep????

I do have questions and concerns about Bush's ability to PARDON the crimes his administration committed before he leaves office --- I think this would be HARDER for him to do if impeachment
were going forward.

We also have the horrendous situation of Bush/Cheney ignoring subpeonas -- thumbing their nose
at Congress. Does Congress want that example of defiance to stand.

Who would have ever thought that REPUBLICANS would vote for Nixon's impeachment --- ??
But they did!!!

I think Conyers should find a way to stick his toe in the water -- but if he's running for
re-election, I think we have a problem right there!!!





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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. "What will be left of our Constituion and laws"
Not much.

What would be left of laws against murder if few were ever prosecuted for it?
Not much.

I agree with virtually everything you say here.

Except I don't think this has anything to do with Conyers running for reelection. I doubt that his seat is in jeopardy regardless of how he goes on impeachment. I believe that he honestly believes that the Democratic Party may be hurt if it proceeds with impeachment. I strongly disagree with him, but I do believe he has honorable intentions.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
78. OK -- I agree with you . . . Conyers reelection isn't an issue in this . . . !!!!
Thanks -- !!!

:)
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yellowdogintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Members of the House run for re election every 2 years so if he is planning
to stay in office he better be running for re -election.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
57. Conyers is running for reelection unopposed
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. Agree with you all ---
but, do any of you think what Conyers is saying about worrying about the party's chances for
reelection if impeachment goes forward is valid?

And if anyone wants to respond . . . in Watergate the VN war was obviously in the background
pushing the Nixon impeachment and popularity ratings ---

WHY isn't IRAQ pushing this impeachment issue . . . at least as strongly as I think it should be???


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. I believe that Conyers is sincere about his worrying about that
I believe that it has some validity. Aftery all, it matters a great deal whether or not Dems maintain a good control of Congress and whether Obama wins the election.

However, impeaching Bush is sooooooooooooo important that even if it reduced our chances somewhat it would still be worth it. But I believe that's irrelevant because I believe that impeachment will help us rather than hurt us. And anyhow, it may be the only way to prevent WW III.

Why isn't Iraq pushing the impeachment issue? Some have suggested it's because so many Democrats were complicit in allowing the Iraq War to proceed. That is probably part of it. Also, since our corporate news media is today controlled by so few wealthy and powerful men, that presents a greater obstacle than it did in the early 1970s.

I really believe that we are on the verge of fascism, and if we don't challenge the corporate media aggressively we will complete our road to fascism. That is the bottom line to me. Allowing Bush and Cheney to go unimpeached and remain in office, to me, ranks right up their on the appeasement scale with Neville Chamberlain giving away Czechoslovakia to Hitler.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. Recommend ---
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-09-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
22. kicking n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
24. The party for some reason chose to support bush and his crimes.
I don't know the rationale and I've found out over the past few years, emails don't work with him (nor faxes). Forget him and lend your support to DK and others that want to reestablish the constitution and rule of law with him such as Wexler and let them supply the pressure.
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rucognizant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. Try Phone calls!
They usuallyget through.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
25. KICK!!!
It's NOT too late. It's NEVER too late. Especially for crimes, and war crimes, this grave.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
26. I'll refute one of those off the cuff
There is not enough time.

If Bush has enough time to bomb Iran and start another unnecessary war, then Congress has enough time to impeach the war criminals Bush and Cheney.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Methinks the rabbit is close to wisdom and truth in his opinion. n/t
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. EXACTLY !!! - We Have A Winnah !!!
:yourock:

:hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
88. Excellent point
That is probably the number one reason they need to be removed from office as soon as possible.
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
94. Want a look at what occupied their day yesterday?...
They were so busy with this stuff that they had to schedule reading of the articles of impeachment until after hours when they wouldn't disturb the delicate sensibilities of the more manic of BushBot members.

I dearly wish the Pinocchio syndrome were in effect these days. Can you imagine how long their noses would be by now? They couldn't even have a conversation with less than four feet between them or they'd poke each other in the eye.


wp
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. kr
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skyounkin Donating Member (722 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
29. Reason for impeachment?
Crimes have been committed in this countries name. Up hold your oath of office Conyers!!

NOW!!!

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
32. The polls are old, fuck the M$M, don't take a summer vacation, there WILL be enough votes,
and Obama will destroy McCain no matter what.

There you go John Conyers. I won the argument. :)

Now get off your ass and do your goddamn job!






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OneAngryDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
33. My Objection...
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 03:09 AM by OneAngryDemocrat
My objection to impeaching the asshole is quite simple...

I believe that Bush's defense would be to bring the issue up to the SCOTUS as a separation of powers issue, and force the SCOUTUS to rule on the Constitutionality of the Unitary Executive Theory.

He'll claim that every extra-Constitutional act he undertook WAS Constitutional, as it was done in order to prosecute a Congressionally authorized war.

And I do NOT want THIS particular Supreme Court making THAT decision.

Wait until Obama is in there, and replace two or more of the Justices, and THEN we can talk about bona fide criminal charges...

But until then, I think we should just bide our time.

Thoughts?

Comments?

Please visit my anti-war website, www.shockedandawful.com



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rucognizant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Constitutionally.........
The SCOTUS HAS NO ROLL inthe impeachment procedure!
If we stall ,they might!
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. Even the Court couldn't support his claims. Not a constitutional-law prof in the nation would
support them on it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
86. What could they say about the impeachment clause in the Constitution?
Would they dare to claim that it doesn't exist?

Scalia and Thomas deserve to be impeached almost as much as Bush and Cheney (for their Bush v. Gore decisions). They have no say whatsoever in an impeachment trial. Any decent lawyer knows that the unitary executive theory is a bunch of crap. If they tried to stick their necks into the effort to impeach Bush and Cheney once impeachment got rolling, Congress just might go ahead and impeach them too.

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Old Hickory Fan Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
34. SEND HIM A CONSTITUTION AND ASKS IF HE BELIEVES IN IT?
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
40. Thanks. I'll be contacting him to let him know I agree with his postition
which is shared by Feingold and Obama as well.

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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
41. No One Alive Knows Impeachment More Than John Conyers
He's served on both the Nixon impeachment and Clinton inquisition and knows more about the Constitution in his small finger than most of us could ever know. He also knows the way things go inside the beltway and his observations are 1000% spot on. Yes, it sucks and he's not gonna win a DU popularity contest, but here's a man who is deeply convinced of this regime's crimes, yet there's not the smoking gun and direct criminality that can be used to not only bring the charges but to make sure they pass.

What's also telling is I haven't heard a word from Congressman Wexler or anyone else on Judiciary on this. If there's anyone who would really love to see this regime removed it'd be Wexler or Sheila Jackson-Lee or Maxine Waters...and I'll be interested in seeing if any of the committee members comment about this. Wexler still has his own impeachment resolution on Cheney that has 200,000 plus on-line signatures and there's little action going on with that as well.

Conyers has talked about DeFacto impeachment...in conjunction with pushing forward with the many ongoing and stonewalled investigations into this regime. We don't have all the goods on what this regime has done...I strong suspect we're just at the tip of the iceburg of the crimes committed...and an impeachment all but shuts down all these investigations and lets the rats sneak away. Right now this regime is using every trick in the book to keep its crimes hidden...we're just starting to see/hear evidence on things we long suspected...but there are no smoking guns...yet. Conyers wants the guns and impeachment will happen...and he's said so.

I'd be curious to see if someone could come up with a solid argument here...not an emotional one...waving a Constitution and not looking at the political realities Conyers and others have to deal with. Again...I firmly believe Conyers is not just sincere about wanting to refute his objections but to move ahead in the future demanding an ultimate accountability of this regime...and impeachment isn't the start, it's an end-result. Convictions and indictments are needed here...get those who are protected now to come forward (or end up in the shitter)...once that happens, tongues will wag and smoking guns will start appearing. But, sadly, it won't happen while this regime obstructs and sits behind a court-protected executive privilidge that borders on obscene.

If anything, after this regime is removed, there's gotta be a serious discussion about how the Constitution failed over the past 8 years...from the manipulation of the 2000 elections to this regime's autocratic abuse of power...without those questions being addressed, someone else in the future could grab all these powers and make it even worse.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. I don't know what your bar is for a "smoking gun"
What about the 35 articles that Dennis introduced last night. Which ones of those are not smoking guns?

To start with some simple cases:

What about over a thousand signing statements defying laws duly enacted by Congress?

What about Bush's own admission that he has repeatedly spied on U.S. citizens without a warrant -- which is in violation of our laws and our 4th amendment?

What about Bush's treatment of prisoners, which is in violation of our laws, our 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments, and the Geneva Conventions? Bush has admitted to that too.

Why do you not consider these and many more to be smoking guns?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. A Criminal Indictment
In Nixon's case it was being named an unidicted co-conspirator...proven crimes in a court of law...presided over by a brave man by the name of John Siricca...this was used, along with the testimony, under oath, but many Nixon officials before a House/Senate committee and then again by the Judiciary. Even in Nixon's case, impeachment wasn't a certainty until the Supreme Court ruled that he had to release the White House tapes...documentable, DIRECT evidence that proved he obstructed. No such tape of boooosh ordering the things Cong. Kucinch charges (and I don't deny what he does...I wholeheartedly agree and support...but that's my emotional, this dicussion is on the practical).

In Clinton's case it was the "Starr Report"...a referal from an "independent prosecutor" that showed Clinton had purjured himself. Remember the "is is" and blue dress? That was all "on the record" and again DIRECT evidence of "a crime". It was used as the "underpinning" of the inquisition and again based on a criminal indictment.

Conyers and others want more direct evidence...ones that are being shielded by executive privilidge and the scepter of this regime pardoning anyone who is indicted. What we've learned so far has oozed out of the excesses of this regime's arrogance...it hasn't been thoroughly investigated and few principals have been put under oath to answer the questions Congressman Kucinich and many of us want answered.

There's no one who wants to see justice served on this regime than I do. And I think this regime needs to be held accountable in the World Court on war crimes charges. There are also a lot of scandals that we're just tapping the surface of...seeing McClellan break the Omarata of this regime says more will do so once its power and influence is lessened and removed.

To answer your questions...they're smoke, but not guns. They're political charges not supported by direct evidence...and I would iamgine you'd prefer an impeachment based on the true criminality rather than a broad political definition that can be used (and will be) by Repugnicans in the future to handcuff a Democratic President. If there's to be Impeachment it has to be done in as clear and transparent way as possible...remove any concept that it was the political not the criminal that drives this move.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. But you didn't answer my specific issues
The first one, for example -- the signing statements. Are you claiming that there is no solid evidence that Bush appended over 1000 signing statements to laws enacted by Congress that nullified those laws? Or are you claiming that he has the Constitutional right to nullify laws enacted by Congress?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. It Doesn't Matter What I Think
I agree with all that Congressman Kucinich charges. There's no doubt in my mind that this regime abused its powers beyond the limits the Constitution specifies. But this isn't about what I feel, it's about the game...and yes, it's a game that has to be played in the beltway that makes impeachment happen.

Sad fact is the people who do matter are 33 Repugnican enablers who will vote to keep this regime in power no matter what. It's bad enough they also hurt millions of people through preventing relief from the economic strangulation the poor and middle class are undergoing...they're preventing millions of children from getting health care...they're against giving veterans a new GI bill and providing other services...shall I go on? Accoring to these 33 (and more...sadly), they see no wrong.

I'm all for an Impeachment of booooosh and cheney as well as their criminal indictments and convictions along with a dozen other of their enablers in the World Court. I want a rejuvenated Justice Department to clean house on its own...complete pending investigations, enforce subpoenas and prosecute crimes now hidden by executive privilidge. And, in the end, I want the impeachment to mean something...to be one that is based on irrefutable fact and not seen as a political act.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. It's about the game?
So you concede that the evidence is there, but it's about the game?

If that's the case, then let's start impeachment hearings, so that the game can be broadcast to millions of Americans who currently know little about what's going on, so that they can see for themselves. After they view on TV the mountains of evidence, their outrage will force the Republican enablers to fall in line.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Again...It Doesn't Matter What I Think
If I could wave a magic wand, I would have gaveled in hearings on this regime following 9/11...the gross incompetence was blatant at that point...and would have prevented what followed. Hell, I would have upheld the Constitutional right of the Supreme Court of Florida to have called for a full and total recount...not subverted by the Supreme Court.

Yes, it's a game...and one that you and I don't play, but elected officials...better known as politicans do. Mountains of evidence don't matter when you control the levers of power and the media...protected by partisan judges.

You honestly think repugnican enablers in this Senate will fall in line? The same enablers who voted against Mothers Day? I like the chances more with a larger number of Democrats in both Houses and a Democratic President...and then to demand them to follow through on the many investigations that will prove criminality.

I don't concede a thing...and I would say we agree on more things than not. The difference is not what I believe, I don't have a vote in the House or Senate.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Yes, I believe they'll fall in line once they see that their continuation in office depends on it
They care more about their own miserable careers than they care about George Bush, Dick Cheney, our Constitution, our country, or world peace.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
65. "Not mattering what you think" has to cut both ways. Why evade the
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 01:46 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
"smoking GUN" issue raised by Time For Change, after denying it. Why post at all?

Why back down, when it comes to a rebuttal, adducing some vague allegation of its appearing as mushy, wishy-washy, political vendetta, in the teeth of TFC's presentation of hard evidence of felony?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. Smoking Gun?
Hardly a smoking gun as its still indirect evidence. Smoking gun is a tape with boosh's voice on it that says to committ a crime or an order in his handwriting...or a series of people who will testify under oath (not in a book or on a TV show) in front of the Judiciary Committee and also in courts of law...establishing guilt and corraborating it.

There's lots of evidence, but precious little direct eveidence...but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist (it does) but it hasn't come forth yet...again, you're citing allegation, not a case that has been brought to even a grand jury.

What I think is everyone in this regime needs to be held accountable for their crimes and they must be relentlessly and thoroughly investigated. I won't be satisfied until I see most the members of this regime either on trial in the Hauge on war crime charges or indicted and convicted here on major felonies...but that's not impeachment...that's a criminal, not a political matter.

Again, it doesn't matter what I think...and we can go round and round about this topic and it's not gonna mean a thing cause it's not gonna happen. It's not what I think, I don't have a vote in either the House or Senate. The one thing I do have is my vote and the ability to work for candidates who will support a complete and thorough investigation of this regime...and encourage others to vote and support those candidates.

Cheers...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. I've mentioned several criminal activities and asked you to explain why you believe that the proof
is not airtight. When I do that you change the subject and say that it's just a game or it doesn't matter what you think. Now again you're saying that it is indeed based on criminal evidence.

So again, please explain why any of the examples of crimes I gave you, which Bush has publicly admitted to (such as his signing statements which nullify over a thousand laws passed by Congress) don't amount to a smoking gun. Or, explain why any of the 35 articles of impeachment that Kucinich discussed last night, all of them accompanied by references, don't amount to smoking guns.

Simply saying that not enough evidence exists is not a convincing argument. Can you take one example that Kucinich presented and explain why the evidence he presented is not sufficient proof?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. It Doesn't Matter What I Think Is Air Tight...
It matters to a majority on the House Judiciary Committee and then a majority in the Congress and then 3/5ths of the Senate. If you want impeachment that's all that matters. Those are the people who need the airtight evidence. These are the finders of fact and the jury that determines the validity of that evidence. And from the lack of interest and support I've seen for impeachment most of these people don't want to be involved with this matter at this time.

Again, I've been long convinced this regime has committed crimes...and I want them ALL investigated. What part of that don't you follow? The issue here is that members of Congress don't find what your citing as a smoking gun or there would be far more support for Congressman Kucinich's resolution.

Hearing that Congressman Wexler wants to move forward is a good sign and I fully support it...but again, there's not the support to move this forward for now...and this won't change no matter what I think.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. You hit the point in your last paragraph
Yes, laws were broken. But Bush is only impeachable if it is shown that h is the one that ordered the laws broken. Impeachment fans keep missing that point, and talk about how we have an illegal war, spying, etc. We have these things, and with McClellan's book we have a finger pointing at Bush, but until that book came out all we had were suspicions. If we acted on them, it would be a snap for Bush to say that he got bad advice, fire someone somewhere, and claim that the problem was solved. then he'd be even stronger, impeachment would fail and we would be out of power for another generation.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Illegal war and spying
Bush admitted to the illegal spying on national television.

As for the illegal war, is there any question who ordered it? Sure, Cheney and others advised it, but there is no question who ordered it.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
77. But, he can defuse an impeachment by holding an underling responsible for it
Just like this: He states publically that he was given bad advise by underling X, who has been asked to resign. Case closed. Impeachment gets stymied because no one will then vote for it. It has nothing to do with whether the act was wrong - if he can cloud the issue by claiming that someone else advised him with a secret agenda, then the reps won't hold him responsible in an impeachment vote. It has to be shown publically that the things he did were done intentionally, or else it won't fly, not with this bunch of Republicans.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. "Bad advice" is no excuse whatsoever for a president committing a crime
Ever hear the expression "The buck stops here"?

Oh, I murdered someone, but my excuse is that I had bad advice. Bullshit!

Case closed.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #79
89. Well then, you need to let Congress know that
You may not like it, but the Repubs will support him to a man based on that point.

This isn't about what is legal, this is about whether Repubs will vote on something that will destroy their political career as they see it. Gripe all you want about how things shouldn't be that way, and you'll find they don't change to be what you want them to be.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Repubs respond from pressure from their constituents too
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. Repub constituents believe Bush is Christ personified
And while the tide has turned in this country, Repub congresspeople are looking at some constituents asking for impeachment, and comparing that to the perty apparatus telling them their careers will be over if they break ranks.

How many times has the word "lockstep" been used on this board? Do you think that they will stay in lockstep on comparatively trivial matter, and not on something with such grave consequences as impeachment?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Right, and those people make up a huge 26% of the American electorate
What's so hard to believe about opinion being radically swayed by televised hearings that detail a multitude of serious crimes committed by our president and VP?
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. What's important is that none of them have
They've all indicated crimes by the Bush ADMINISTRATION, not by BUSH. They are not the same thing. Remember Lurita Doan? Wasn't her crime a crime that you would hold against Bush and Cheney? Without direct implication in the activities, Bush and Cheney will skate while underlings take the blame. They've been doing it all along, so why think anything would be different? Besides, dismissing department heads for breaking the law IS accountability, regardless of whether it's the accountability that you want in particular. You're going to be hard-pressed to convince the reps to support impeachment if Bush takes steps to hold people in his administration responsible publicly.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Political Vs. Criminal
It's a point that some either don't know or ignore when this debate pop up here...and that's what an impeachment is and how its conducted. It's a political trial based on criminal evidence...direct evidence. A tape, a blue dress...something that places the crime with the politician. Without the criminal element, it turns impeachment into a popularity contest (which I contend it already is)...that could be used by the opposition to cripple a President strictly on allegations.

McCellan is the first insider to appear to have broken the Omarta of this regime...and maybe we'll look back on this in the future as a turning point that opened the door enough to get a look inside. It'll be up to others in this regime to open it wide...and that will come through either their cooperation or compelled testimony with the real threat of jail time if they stonewall or obstruct. As this regime loses power, more will see the profit in coming clean and more revelation are sure to come forward.

I'm sure there are plenty of smoking guns with boooosh & cheneys fingerprints on them...we just don't have them yet. This doesn't mean we should forget about it...just keep digging and not build a case that is circumstantial at this point into one that's air tight...World Court air tight.

Cheers...

:toast:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. You are trying to make Impeachment a legal entity when it is not and
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 02:06 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
never will be. It is political. Period.

However, your underlying assumption is that people at every level of society need all the legal "t"s crossed and all the legal "i"s dotted, when the reverse is the case. People at every level of society recognise the truth of what's been going on, and any future politically-motivated impeachment would be recognised for what it is - or rather is not. This no place, no occasion, for anguished "ivory tower" demurrals and querulous pedantry, is there?

Impeachment was conceived precisely to circumvent the triumph of the "best justice money can buy". We all know how the best lawyers can indict a ham sandwich, but no ham sandwich is at issue here, and any criminal indictments subsumed within the purview of the impeachment would doubtless ensue.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Yes, It Is Political
And because of that, there won't be a conviction. End of story.

My point is that a just impeachment is one that's based on criminal charges not political ones.

People may "recognize" what's going on, but that doesn't justify impeachment. It isn't based on popularity polls and it's not some magic wand that will make all the trouble go away. It's a rememdy that is used to prevent abuse of power...that horse is long out of the barn...or to do an accounting once the crimes have been proven. Right now we have assumptions amd omdorect evodemce/

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Do you think Clinton's "impeachment" was justified? Or did it solve any problems for the right wing? It sure didn't help Gnewt Gingrich. It sure set the bar low for what should be a serious tool...used as a last reosrt. And, again, a political solution does nothing to address the criminality.

If the founders had wanted "circumvent" the legal, then they would have made conviction by simple majority, not 3/5th. I want an impeachment...but not a partisan one. I also want EVERY criminal in this regime prosecuted and not pardoned.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. "... but that doesn't justify impeachment. " Justify in law? Is that what you mean?
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 02:39 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
Or justify according to some strange notion of yours that impeachment should be a legal procedure and not a political one, because that is the way you think it should be?

By invoking the Clinton impeachment, you make my case for me. If it is groundless, people will see it for what it is: a party-political vendetta, and not a legitimate political recourse in the broader sense. Not party political, in the manner of the Clinton fiasco, but political in the broader sense. That is where you make a serious error: in confusing "party-political" with "political" in the broader sense, and thus being unable to appreciate that most people can and do distinguish between them. Ask Kenneth Starr.

And, of course, your last sentence evokes a "non sequitur". Impeachment does not preclude prosecutions under the criminal law, which can wait - for the very reason you adduce. No pardons.

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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. It Doesn't Matter What I Care
It matters what 220 or so Congresspeople who would vote to impeach and 67 Senators to convict.

Yes, it has turned into a vendetta and that's what I feel most who want impeachment here want. A quick fix that removes booosh and cheney with little afterthought as to how this can work other than singing high rhetorical phrases about "protecting the constitution" and that this is the ONLY thing that matters.

I also take into account the corporate media who were all aboard the Ken Starr show (ratings, ratings, ratings cause it involved a blow job) as opposed to taking this regime to task for its war for profit...they won't even admit their own complicity in playing cheerleaders in this disaster. You think they're gonna look at impeachment in a favorable light when testimony is sure to make them look bad? Yes...I'm looking at a far broader political view.

In Nixon's case, impeachment came AFTER there were convictions and that Nixon was cited as an unidicted co-conspirator...crimes had been charged. Starr's "report" was also a legal underpinning of supposed perjury...again the impeachment was based on the crime not the political. The difference being that Peter Rodino made sure there were repugnicans who voted out the articles on Nixon...and that there would be the appearance of a bipartisan resolution as opposed to how DeLay and Hyde ramrodded Clinton's "impeachment" on pure partisan grounds. Now which one will stand up to history as being partisan?

Again...it's not my judgement of what constitutes impeachment. If that were the case, this regime would have been impeached for their negligence regarding 9/11...it's been all downhill from there. I'm more concerned about a comprehensive justice...not a political one.

Cheers...
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Damn good points. K&R.
The crimes of this administration are visible to anyone who cares to see them. Even in spite of the media's coverage, what this administration has boldly admitted to amounts to impeachable offenses. If I was certain that an Obama administration would be intent on holding them accountable for their crimes, I still don't know if I'd want to wait until this criminal administration has left. The problem I can see with waiting is I can imagine the media portraying the democrats as even more petty and vindictive by using their new found power to go after an administration which has already left office. I'm appalled that despite the mountains of evidence available that still nothing is being done about this. This is one of the biggest issues faced in the 21st century, and it's being sat on for fear that democrats won't be seen as 'good sports'. I can only hope and pray (and email) that something will be done about this soon.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. Thank you EOTE -- I think that the most important reason for proceeding with impeachment now is
to prevent a war with Iran and very possibly WW III.
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skyounkin Donating Member (722 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. The Constitutuion
most certainaly did not fail! Those who have sworn an oath of office to protect and defend and uphold the constitution have failed- they have failed the constitution and us.

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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
51. Only one rebuttal needed. John Conyer when sworn into office swore to uphold and protect
the Constitution. Period.
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Ytzak Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
53. There are not enough votes
John Conyers understands that there are sufficient numbers of Republican's who will not vote to convict even if they witness Bush on live TV sacrificing a baby to Satan and eating the remains. No matter how well documented, no matter how much evidence is brought to the floor, there will never be enough votes in the Senate.

If Bush is found innocent, then future Presidents will point to this and say that it allows them to do what they want.

It should be done because impeachment is the right thing to do. But evidence has nothing to do with it. This is politics, and Republicans play that game better than Democrats. The Senate will not uphold the impeachment.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. "If Bush is found innocent, then future Presidents will point to this and say that it allows them to
do what they want".

So, are you suggesting that doing nothing about it will lead to better results than that?

Why don't we just stop prosecuting people for murder? If murderers are found innocent, that will allow future murderers to do whatever they want.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:29 PM
Original message
What a reversal of reality.
If Bush is never even accused and retires in prosperity despite his crimes, future Presidents will understand that crime pays and you will always get away with it.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
82. What a reversal of reality.
If Bush is never even accused and retires in prosperity despite his crimes, future Presidents will understand that crime pays and you will always get away with it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #53
75. Without Impeachment Congress can't get the evidence they need. to find the smoking gun."
Participants refuse to answer Subpoena's and those who do testify restrict areas of their testimony. Transcripts and e-mails that are turned over are so heavily redacted that no one can make sense of them.

On and on. The only way to get testimony that will expose the Crimes and the Criminals is to have impeachment hearings which will assert Congresses Power "equal with Executive Branch" to overcome Bush/Cheney's "Executive Privilege" rights they keep claiming they have.

And, there won't be a stomach for any more investigations once they've left the White House.

Impeachment has to be started now...to get the evidence needed for the criminals to be held accountable.
If Senate Can't Impeach because of the Repugs...at least enough evidence will be there for "civil and other outside suits" to get them held accountable after they leave office. It must begin now....or we will have another war just in time for Election Day '08.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
54. K &R Please write to M$M and demand they cover a Congressman introducing
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
87. Thank you for that list
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
55. I'm sure that Mr. Conyers has never heard these arguements before
Every few months he meets with impeachment activists and plays the "I'm considering it" game.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
58. he is telling us he fears the truth will hurt us? How can the truth possibly hurt us any worse than
the lies and crimes already have?

"IMPEACH NOW"

Hold up the consitution and demand our government live and breathe by the same rules and or laws that we the people are forced to adhere to.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
62. Great post. Thanks! n/t
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
66. I want PELOSI to Rebutt this -
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
72. K&R
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. “Why Nixon Should Have Been Impeached.”

“Why Nixon Should Have Been Impeached.”

“In calling him to account, we also reestablish the proper parameters of presidential conduct. It is essential, therefore, that the record of our inquiry be complete so that no future president may infer that we have implicitly sanctioned what we have not explicitly condemned.”

“Impeachment is difficult and it is painful, but the courage to do what must be done is the price of remaining free.”


Congressman Conyers 1974 article published in The Black Scholar
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
84. We can't enforce it.
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 03:36 PM by rucky
and

It's better to take power, then try and convict the bastards.

But I support Dennis.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
95. Some think the only way to guarantee we attack Iran...
...is to impeach Bush right now.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
96. GRAPHIC: polls show support to impeach Bush rivals Nixon day before resigned SEND TO PELOSI & CO.
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