A question regarding economics and the economy in general

[mdmc]

There is an OP in GD that asks how we will pay for Obama's health care proposal.
How do we afford our current social safety net?
I work with disabled adults. My clients and I require public tax dollars to live (my salary is paid by tax dollars, my clients benefits are paid with tax dollars).
I have a buddy that is a gym teacher in a local elementary school. He earns $75500 per year (he has been teaching for about 20 years).
So how do we pay for schools, war, social workers, Senators, and highways? Does the private sector make enough of a profit to pay for our social safety network / public sector? If not, how do we pay for the public sector?
:shrug:

[bean fidhleir]

1. "Does the private sector make enough of a profit"

That's really a false question, though it's *INCREDIBLY* hard to see the situation in its true light.

What would happen if we eliminated all private ownership of natural resources, and forbid any but co-op businesses?

[mdmc]

3. what is "co-op" short for?

[bean fidhleir]

6. "Cooperative" - i.e., cooperative, fully-distributed ownership

Sometimes called "collective". There are a number of different models, but they all have in common that the profits, if any, are distributed equally among all the owners, and no one owner can have a bigger share than any other. Most grocery, banking, and insurance co-ops are owned by those who buy there and work there. Others are owned only by those who work there. Grocery, banking, and insurance co-op ownership is generally open to anyone who meets the associational requirements and wants a piece, and the profits are distributed in the form of reductions in costs.

[mdmc]

8. thank you for the info

peace and low stress

[bean fidhleir]

9. So what do you suppose would happen if natural resources could not

be privately owned, and all multi-person companies were co-ops?

Or let me put it a different way: where does the value of money come from? What makes some money valuable while other money is expensive wastepaper?

[mdmc]

11. I'm really not that smart

Economics boggles my mind. I am much more of a 'people' person. I listen for a living.

The way I see it, capitalism replaced royalty. Natural resources seem to be rather valuable. So something powerful would need to control them.

Einstein believed (at least I think he believed this - I could be wrong)that socialism was the only economic model that could exist in the future. Capitalism/nationalism/monarchy all work for the few against the many.

We would need some powerful force to unite "the many" against the powerful "few" that currently own the world. That would be the only way to stop the powerful few from owning everything like they do now.

[bean fidhleir]

16. Apologies for being obscure, then

What I'm trying to say in my roundabout way is that money is just a token for energy - human and solar energy, at bottom. So as long as the basic natural resources of the world haven't been used up and we haven't overflowed the carrying capacity of the planet (which we have) there'll always be more than enough to cover everyone in terms of the necessities of life.

Whether we have to do something extraordinary to get the resources out of the hands of those who want to supply the energy of none but consuming the energy of thousands is a different issue.

[mdmc]

17. I think that we do need to wrestle those resources from the

Royalty that continue to control them.

Thanks for the input.

Peace and low stress

[maui9002]

2. A very good question

and one we all too often ignore. Some simply say increase taxes on the wealthy and on corporations. While I would support some tax increases (e.g., a reversion to the marginal rates in effect during the Clinton administration) and strongly support eliminating many tax breaks for wealthy individuals and corporations, increasing taxes alone is not the answer and increasing them too much will actually make matters worse. I believe the answer is to spend less on other "priorities", including defense spending and entitlement programs, mainly social security and medicare, and take steps to improve the non defense spending side of the economy. More companies (vs. bigger companies), more jobs, bigger tax base, more taxes.

[izquierdista]

4. Take out war

Once you take away war, there is plenty of money for everything else.

[Lasher]

5. Universal health care would cost little or no more than we collectively pay now.

That's one reason why it's important that we have single payer universal health care and not more health insurance.

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_system_cost.php



The current administration hates Social Security and our other New Deal social programs. They have manufactured a bogus Social Security 'crisis' as an excuse for gutting the program under cover of 'reform'. The only real danger to Social Security as we know it is the very 'reforms' that Junior has been trying to sell us.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2844836

We can't simultaneously pay for schools, war, social workers, Senators, highways, and massive tax cuts for the most affluent. Think about it: Funding domestic social programs and infrastructure upkeep didn't seem to be so impossible until Junior and his junta came along, did it? They are the problem. Roll back their tax cuts for the richest 10%, end the go-alone unnecessary occupation in Iraq, and restore regulations on corporations and then we might be in a position to start paying off some of the massive debt that the worst administration in history has run up.

[SergeyDovlatov]

7. Bring troops from oversees. Sell off military bases abroad

Refocus military on defending US and downsize.

[applegrove]

10. Think of the premiums people are allready paying to get crappy health care. And if they are not

paying their employers are paying. American health care is 2/3 more expensive per person than it is in Canada. So keeping in mind that .... you can see how a new national health care policy would almost pay for itself in terms of dollars allready being spent.

In Canada we pay a vat tax. Want a haircut? 6% of the cost of your haircut goes to the government. Want to send your kids to the mall for an afternoon with $100 bucks? 6% of that goes to the government. It can be a pain in the ass but necessities like groceries are not taxed. So it is a pretty fair way of taxing.

[mdmc]

12. but even in Canada

Your private sector makes enough money to support your public sector? I guess I am having a hard time understanding where all the money for roads and teachers (and everything that is in the public sector) comes from.
Is there really that much profit out there?

[applegrove]

13. We were in debt until the Value Added Tax. And sure people end up paying

that cause business just passes it on. But we were in great debt as a country before the Vat tax. And now we have surpluses every year while we have health care, great schools etc. We are not spending as much on the military as you are. Or incarceration.

[mdmc]

14. it boggles the mind

it is hard to believe

[applegrove]

15. You spend money on different things that the rest of the West does.

You being the American Government.

[mdmc]

18. But like I said

it seems hard to fathom that there is enough profit in the private sector to pay for the public sector - even in Sweden or Canada..