A Reasonable Test for "Low Information Voters"

[woo me with science]

Can you figure out how to obtain a photo ID for voting?

Is it the same people advocating information tests for voters, who argue that voters can't possibly be expected to figure out how to obtain a photo ID for voting?

[Mountainman]

1. Go to Cosco and sign up, you get a membership card with a crappy picture of you on it.

[Dora]

2. That will cost $50. nt

[Mountainman]

3. I was trying to be funny

[Dora]

4. I was trying to be informative.

:)

[AndyTiedye]

5. This is Intended to Disenfranchise Low-Income City-Dwellers Who Don't Drive

The "low information voters" you are thinking of all have driver's licenses.

[woo me with science]

6. All of them, huh?

And none of those who can't drive could possibly ever figure out how to get somewhere, either.

You are very funny!

[AndyTiedye]

7. If They Can Stop 10% of Low-Income Urban Voters from Voting, It Will Cost Us The Election

Who said anything about "all"? They only need to stop 10% or so to swing the election to the Repiglickins.

It is good that you are so easily amused, but you should see this for what it is, an attack on the Democratic base.

Practically all Republicans have driver's licenses. Democrats, not so much, because many more Democrats than Republicans live in cities.

This is just like a poll tax. People are going to have to take time off from work, and often in some cases travel a considerable distance, to obtain the required ID so they can vote.

[woo me with science]

8. You said "all."

I resent the implication that Democrats are somehow too stupid or incapable to figure out how to obtain a photo ID or request help locally. I have a very hard time with Democrats who claim to care about voter fraud but will not support the most basic safeguard to ensure that the person voting is who he says he is.

It is not difficult to obtain a photo ID, and anyone who cannot figure this out has no business voting in the first place.

[AndyTiedye]

13. It Can Be As Difficult as the State Wants to Make It

If they charge for the ID, then they have created a poll tax and violated the Constitution.
They can skirt this by other means, such as issuing the IDs from DMV offices that are out of reach of public transit,
and only during business hours so that people have to take time off from work to wait in long lines.

[woo me with science]

18. Now who's talking conspiracy?

ID's are free. I wish Democrats who are so concerned about access would gear their efforts toward making sure that people can get ID's and get to the polls, instead of arguing that a little bit of voter fraud is somehow insignificant.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. IDs are not either free

They cost $27 in my state. Plus the birth certificate is at least $10.

Do I need to post a definition of a POLL TAX for you? :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Yes it is difficult to obtain a photo ID!!

We went through this in Missouri 2 years ago. My own mother couldn't register because, like 65,000 other Missouri residents, she didn't have a birth certificate. She was born at home. There are literally tens of thousands of elderly like her without birth certificates and there are tens of thousands of disabled and adoptees without birth certificates and NO WAY OF GETTING ONE.

The St Louis paper just last week ran a story about a woman who was born in Mississippi but Mississippi has no record of her birth. So she can't get a birth certificate.

For you to actually state that ANYONE "has no business voting in the first place" is about the most non-progressive statement I have seen on this discussion board in all the years I have posted here. So you think my mother, because she was born at home, has no right to vote? Who else would you exclude?

Also, Democrats (well I guess I should say INFORMED Democrats) know that voter fraud is NOT A PROBLEM. ELECTION FRAUD is the problem.

And voter ID is a solution for a problem that does not exist.

There have been ZERO cases of voter fraud in Missouri EVER.

[tblue37]

42. He is arguing voter fraud rather than election fraud and

he has his profile disabled. He also refers to the Democratic voters as "your voter base." 'Nuff said.

[EOTE]

26. What is more important?

To safeguard the election process against a complete non-issue (can you provide me any numbers that suggest that vote fraud involving people voting as others due to lack of photo ID is an even marginal issue? I haven't heard of a single reported instance.) Or is it more important to keep millions of legitimate voters from voting because they're unable to obtain that ID? Your answer to this question will speak volumes.

[tblue37]

41. This is a Republican talking point. There is plenty of evidence of election fraud,

but no evidence of significant voter fraud. But Republican controlled state legislatures are passing laws against nonexistent voter fraud while ignoring obvious election fraud.

In states where they will now require voter ID, the GOTV effort will also have to focus on helping Dem-leaning voters get the necessary ID. It is just one more hurdle to help the GOP disenfranchise Dem voters.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. What about the ones who don't have birth certificates?

[blondeatlast]

9. The incidence of voter fraud is so incredibly rare that it would never influence an election.

I challenge you to find a non-biased source that can prove otherwise. It's a non-issue.

Edit: spelling.

[woo me with science]

10. Oh please.

Does it embarrass you to suggest that your voter base is so incredibly stupid that they cannot manage this simple requirement?

The argument that just a little fraud is okay because it doesn't influence elections is ridiculous. You should care about ANY fraud that occurs and be working to eliminate it-not just the fraud that hurts you.

I grow so weary of this patronizing nonsense.

[blondeatlast]

11. I asked you to find one example--what's patronizing about that?

You are obviously a smart guy, prove it.

[woo me with science]

14. You are not listening.

First of all, individual voter fraud is very difficult to measure, so the numbers are not clear at all, despite what you attempt to claim (without your own citation, I might add ). Even the stats on voters without ID are in question, as one state recently set the estimate at close to 1 percent, instead of the 10 percent claimed higher in this thread.

But more importantly, you missed my main point, which is that I DONT CARE what the studies say. Even if their conclusions ARE valid (which is by no means certain, given the serious methodological issues), they deal with national elections. I live in a county where elections are often decided by a handful of votes, so voter fraud DOES matter in a very concrete way.

What is patronizing is your claim that Democratic voters somehow cannot manage this simple requirement to prevent voter fraud. I was not referring to your asking for a citation (I would classify that instead as a cheap rhetorical trick, given that you don't cite anything yourself). If that bit of reading comprehension is so difficult for you, I can start to understand how it might be confusing for you to obtain a photo ID.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. You want to disenfranchise voters

and you don't care to prove that voter fraud even exists.

What a putz.

[EOTE]

27. My god, you can't provide ONE SINGLE INSTANCE!

Yet you still have the audacity to claim that this is an issue. Tell me what's the bigger issue, one or two voters (who haven't even been proven to exist) voting as someone else, or MILLIONS of voters getting disenfranchised because they are unable to obtain the proper credentials.

[blondeatlast]

34. I didn't make that claim. I just challenged you. Funny, you don't seem to be listening now.

I have an 11 year old who behaves the same way--he's had his internet privileges revoked for a week.

[blondeatlast]

39. A reasonable test for well-meaning DUers (inadvertently?) parroting RW taliking points:

Just answer the challenge with some evidence.

As I said before, you're a smart guy--pony up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. One example

Just one.

Please :)

[blondeatlast]

32. You've responded to several posts since you responded to this one--

I (and now several others) are still waiting...

Just ONE, just one--sheesh.

[ljm2002]

12. First of all, these laws address a non-existent problem...

...which in itself is a very strong clue (as if one were needed) what the real intent is here.

Secondly, it is not always easy to get an ID. I could tell of my own trials and tribulations 3 years ago, when I needed to get a current ID but had moved to a different state, had a lapsed driver's license from the first state, could not get a social security card because of a maiden name vs. married name issue, could not get my marriage records because I needed ID to get them...

Don't be duped by these voter ID laws, they are evil like most things pushed by Republics.

[woo me with science]

17. I suspect

that you were able to get one.

[ljm2002]

30. Yes it finally got straightened out...

...but that does not address my point, which is that it is not always easy to get ID, not at all. There are many things that can happen that can drop you into a bureaucratic nightmare. So for everyone who says "what's the problem", I was simply trying to show one scenario where there was a problem.

Also. Just getting to the DMV for ID can be a hassle for those who are old, infirm or dirt poor. Most of us can just drive the hell over there and do what we need to do -- we can even keep working, use our cell phones, go through email on our laptops, what have you. But for someone in a wheel chair, someone who is aged, someone who is so poor that the bus fare is a stretch -- not to mention the extra time it will tack on to the trip -- it is not nothing, it can be a fairly big deal.

Anyway we all know why these laws are being proposed and passed. The affected constituencies largely vote Democratic, and that in a nutshell is the reason for these laws.

[Juche]

15. Its not hard to get one, but a poll tax is cheap too

A $100 poll tax is also not insurmountable and many people could afford it, but it is still an attempt to disenfranchize an entire demographic of people who won't vote for you or your party.

Getting an ID isn't hard. You get 6 points of ID and go to the DMV, the ID itself is free. But if you don't have a license you have to get someone to drive you there.

If there is going to be a voter ID law, there needs to be a publicly and privately funded effort to help voters get to the DMV to get their licenses. A disabled elderly person who doesn't own a car is not the same as a 20 something who spends their time on the internet.

My understanding is in some states you can juse use a piece of mail with your address instead of gov. ID. I am fine with that.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10057.html

And young African-Americans are especially likely to not meet the requirements. A study by the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee found that in Milwaukee County, Wis., 74 percent of African-Americans and 66 percent of Hispanics aged 18 to 24 did not have a valid driver’s license — which is the most common form of photo identification.

[woo me with science]

16. You make some good points,

but some of your argument is disingenuous.

I think your recommendation to ensure that people can get ID and get to the polls is an excellent one. I wish more Democrats would gear their efforts in this direction instead of trying to argue that a little bit of voter fraud doesn't matter. It absolutely does matter, particularly in local and state elections.

The statistics about driver's licenses are meaningless. Who cares if they are the most common? That is irrelevant if you don't address the other options available to this group. Perhaps efforts need to go toward engaging young minorities in the political process, instead of assuming that we can't put reasonable measures in place to prevent fraud because they are too incompetent to figure out how to obtain a photo ID. The comparison to a poll tax is just inflammatory rhetoric; ID's are free, and a poll tax does not prevent voter fraud.

[EOTE]

29. Not a little bit... NONE!

You haven't provided a single instance, yet you think this is an issue. Why the fuck should there be a massive effort to resolve an issue that simply doesn't exist? And if that effort disenfranchises millions, you don't give a rat's ass about that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Where are all these free IDs??

I live in a bistate area and they are not free in either state. Which states provide them for free? And do they also provide birth certificates for free? Cause if you have to pay for either it is a poll tax.

[Juche]

40. My mistake

In Indiana the ID is free, but the birth certificate needed to get an ID costs $10. So it is a poll tax.

[Juche]

36. The statistics aren't meaningless

Blacks, latinos, the young, the poor and the disabled all lean democrat by 20-80 point margins, and all are less likely to have a photo ID. Imagine if a bill was passed where southern whites had to pass a political quiz before they could vote. Sure if those southern whites studied they could pass the test, but some wouldn't. The fact remains that any attempt to do that would be an attempt to disenfranchise a demographic that votes republican.

It is not inflammatory to compare this to a poll tax. A person can take the time to get an ID and they can earn enough to pay a poll tax. But both make voting harder, and both disenfranchise voters who don't vote for the party that supports these measures.

The ID itself is free, but the birth certificate is $10.

http://www.in.gov/sos/photoid/howdoi.html

Obtaining a Photo ID
If you do not possess an ID that is acceptable for voting purposes, Public Law 109-2005 requires the BMV to issue an Indiana State ID Card free.

To obtain a free ID card for voting purposes from any BMV branch that issues driver licenses and ID cards, you will need to supply the necessary documentation, as explained on the BMV's Indiana Identification Documentation List web page or print off the "Here's What You'll Need..." flyer to take with you to the BMV. You may also contact the Hoosier Voter Hotline at 1-866-IN-1-VOTE or the BMV at [phone].



People will have to jump through hoops. THey will have to get a birth certificate, social security card, a piece of mail with their name & address on it, then get to the DMV w/o a car. It is insurmountable? No. But neither is a $100 poll tax. If a person has the time to get an ID, they have the time to earn $100 for a poll tax.

Technically, waiting in line to vote for 6 hours like people had to do in 2004 in democrat counties in Ohio isn't insurmountable either, but it makes it harder to vote. Back then Blackwell underfunded voting booths in dem counties and overfunded in GOP counties. Is waiting in line for 6 hours to vote insurmountable? No, but it makes voting for a non-republican harder which is the goal of photo ID as well.

Voting should be easy. Election day should be a national holiday, people should be automatically registered on election day and we should encourage people to vote and offer transportation to get there.

If you are concerned about voter fraud some areas require you bring in a piece of mail with your name and address on it. That seems to work to counteract vote fraud and doesn't disenfranchise voters.

The majority of people, with helpful info and transportation, can probably get an ID who don't have one. Nonetheless, this is an attempt to prevent democrats from voting, plain and simple. If you want to stop vote fraud just ask people to bring in some other proof of ID. In Indiana if you are over 65 you can bring in any of the following as proof of ID

Individuals who are 65 years or older may present, as primary documents:


Medicaid/medicare Card
Social Security Benefits Statement
Property Deed
Property Tax Statement
Bank Statements
US Veteran's Access Photo ID Card
Marriage/Divorce Decree
Pension Statement


Most people could get an ID if they needed one, but they'd have to jump through a variety of hoops. By that logic, what is wrong with underfunding voting booths in Ohio? You can still vote, it just takes alot more effort if you are voting for a democrat.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. IDs are not free here

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Best solution I have heard yet

is for voter registration cards to have a picture on them. And for the cards to be free.

[cynatnite]

28. Agreed. They all should be n/t

[blondeatlast]

31. Indeed. But that's too logical for the reactionaries. nt

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Canuckistanian]

37. Ah, Grovelbot makes an appearance...

Now using new and improved "Reverse Psychology™", I see.

[tblue37]

38. In the past, tests were used to bar Black voters from the polls.

I see the requirement for a photo ID as being intended to bar certain (Dem-leaning) demographics from the polls.