Conspiracy Theorists: Explain the world to me

[Zynx]

Virtually everything from the September 11th attacks to the 2004 election to the current mess on Wall Street has been labeled as a conspiracy by someone or another during my time here. I was trying to put the various conspiracies together and try to figure out how this all works, but I simply can't. Maybe I don't posses that all important "truth" that always gets pushed in my face despite most of it being questionable at best.

In terms of my own views on these things:
9/11 was almost exactly what it looked like, but taken advantage of by Bush and Co.

The 2004 election was not stolen for a couple of reasons. First, Bush's improvement in the vote nationwide was consistent and widespread over 2000 so if there was fraud it was extremely widespread. Second, polling did point to a Bush victory despite what Zogby said. Thirdly, I see no statistical evidence Ohio was stolen as Democratic counties put up their best numbers in decades if not ever.

The Wall Street meltdown of the past 9 months or so was bungling on the part of investment bankers and commercial lenders who did not manage risk properly and did not do proper risk analysis when making credit available. It was a classic bubble like any other where supposedly smart people got into a frenzy and did not consider what they were truly doing while hoping the chickens would not come home to roost. I do not believe in some grand conspiracy of the Fed and some secret clan of bankers to fuck us over.

There are many more I could get into, but I won't at the moment.

With all of this said, I want someone to create a unified conspiracy view of the world for me. I always have an open mind to a reasoned argument. I know you don't all share the same conspiracies, but I am curious how these things all fit together. Is it all centrally directed? Are there competing power plays among the conspirators? Do I have food between my teeth and they are keeping that secret from me?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. I would explain it all to you but

then the lizards would get me.

[Zynx]

2. What kinds of lizards?

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Ever read David Icke?

http://www.amazon.com/Children-Matrix-Interdimensional-Controlled-Years/dp/0953881016/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207753771&sr=8-4

[Zynx]

8. Wow. Never knew that existed.

[Echo In Light]

16. Early Icke is good reading!

....personally, I never took seriously his every view, and felt that he was working in allegory/symbolism with his lizard people ideas. However, I read a couple of his books from the early to mid 90s, and he was predicting many totalitarian-esque aspects of govt that would soon come about.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

22. I have read, listened to and watched on video, David Icke for the last

6 years, and he is dead serious about certain bloodlines being shape-shifting alien lizard people.

That said. I discount that part of what he says as he has been so accurate about what has and is still happening.

[didact]

88. That looks cool, but if he has written 5 books and produced 4 videos on his conspiracy theories....

If his theory in the linked book is true, how could any "other" conspiracy theories exist?

[tekisui]

49. Shape-shifting Blue Blood Lizards.

Follow any conspiracy far enough, and it ends with the shape-shifting reptiles.

[Fozzledick]

112. The Reptilican Party?

[Virginia Dare]

73. It's simple..

the materially rich against those who aren't, including nations and civilizations. It's how it's always been, it's how it will always be. If you look at the world through that lense, everything makes sense.

[HereSince1628]

3. THEY are after me AND YOU!

I think that covers all the bases.

[Zynx]

4. So my persistent paranoia is justified? Well, that's good.

[HereSince1628]

14. Don't look over yer shoulder! JUST RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

[datasuspect]

5. our owners keep us handy to discover what useful proteins they can obtain from us

[bowens43]

6. It's the Illuminatus and the Law of Fives........

[RadiationTherapy]

10. exactly. Ewige Blumenkraft.

23 skidoo.

[Jackpine Radical]

101. Flower Power Forever?

Was versuchen Sie, zu sagen?

[Fozzledick]

109. Und Ewige Schlangekraft

:hide: fnord

[SecularMotion]

9. Here's the only truth you need

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3124504

and the rest falls into place kinda like WTC7.

:)

[Zynx]

11. No, no it doesn't. Politicians lie and hide information all the time to advance their arguments.

In this case it was a war. It does not mean that they were capable of pulling off something as complicated as the 9/11 conspiracy theories while somehow also managing to be one of the most consistently bungling administrations in history.

[SpiralHawk]

41. "Some conspiricy theorists even believe I went AWOL. Smirk." - Commander AWOL

[EOTE]

97. How complicated does LIHOP need to be?

A very few people were given enough information about the attacks being upcoming and they simply ignored that information so the attacks could take place. Hell, even the joke of a commission regarding 9/11 pretty much admits to criminal negligence at the very least. It doesn't take a huge spiderweb of conspirators. Just a few people who could have done something, yet chose not to. For christ's sake, if you don't at least believe that these assholes were criminally negligent, perhaps you need to see what Bush was doing for the 7 minutes after Andy Card informed him that things were going as planned the World Trade Center had been hit. Also, you might want to read about Norm Mineta's testimony to the commission regarding a conversation he heard between Cheney and one of his aides while he was at NORAD. Here's James Fetzer recounting it a bit, the quotes he recounts are verified many other places, if you'd like me to look them up for you, just ask. BTW, this quote is coming from an anti-conspiracy site called "Screw Loose Change":

Fetzer: He was there as a witness. You remember what I explained, he was there in this underground bunker, and observed a young aide coming up to Cheney and saying, “Sir, it’s 50 miles out; sir, it’s 30 miles out; sir, it’s 10 miles out; sir, do the orders still stand?” Cheney turned on him, nearly bit off his head, said, “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything different?” The order can only have been to not to be not shoot the plane down. The obvious thing to do would be to shoot the plane down, cause then you use a—

Colmes: Well, what evidence do you have though that this conversation took place?

Fetzer: We got it recorded, Alan. Go on down to st911dotorg, you can find several versions of Mineta’s testimony, it’s recorded, it’s a matter of public record. He presented it to the 9-11 Commission, but it was so startling and so undermined their themes that they didn’t even publish it in their 9-11 Commission Report.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/07/what-norm-mineta-said.html

[maui9002]

21. Lying to justify the war doesn't establish culpability for 9/11

There's no question that the Bush administration used 9/11 to advance their own views of how foreign policy should be conducted, to our lasting regret, and did so by embellishing the truth and flat out lying. And interestingly, just like Vietnam, the administration got most of Congress to support a military response based on falsehoods (the vote on the Tonkin Gulf Resolution was 98 to 0 I believe and the Iraq War Resolution was 77 to 23). That being said, there's also a mountain of evidence that, rather than planning 9/11, the Bush administration was totally unprepared for and surprised by 9/11, even overlooking what many argued should have been obvious signs that terrorists were planning such an attack.
I just can't reconcile a government actively involved in what would have to be an extremely complex conspiracy with the confused, unprepared, jingoistic, and defensive government I witnessed following 9/11.

[Life Long Dem]

12. Are you making an argument or an opinion?

Or are you asking to outsource to Colombia to let them write your book?

Target Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota on 2/2/2008

[Zynx]

31. Say what? I am curious, since so many claim to know what these conspiracy theories are,

as to how they fit together. Apparently the world as I know it is completely wrong according to these people and I have no control over my own destiny since there is some elite cadre out there that manipulates every single major event in the world.

[Life Long Dem]

46. It's a little scary at times when your witnessing a big can of worms opening up.

but then you see the distractions and the real news. I can pick out what they may be up to much better than trying to connect the dots. Like right now, I'm wondering why is it they came out with health issues and stress issues a day or two before a big can of worms opened up. Do they warn us ahead of time for the can opening up?

[Echo In Light]

13. The oldest human dilemma: how The Few control The Many

Much of what this consists of is contingent upon the Problem/Reaction/Solution paradigm, and surprisingly, simple language, or, the subversion of language/ideas to suit an ulterior agenda for those beholden to the overarching profits over people schemes.

It's actually not so X Files-ish as some would prefer to paint it: wealthy people in powerful positions/institutions/organizations {power} work to serve the aims of those systems first and foremost, and hence are often done in secret as to minimize genuine democratic interference as those aims often involve illegality, immorality and injustice.

Sure, there are always exceptions to the rule; there can be advantageous aspects to systems otherwise monstrous, there can be decent people working within monstrous systems {corporations are private tyrannies} etc, ...overall though, I doubt one could point to any significant aspect of how our modern society is managed and not find something nefarious that was/is carried out unbeknown to the public at large ... which, thanks to the internet, doing so has become more difficult to do as easily.

[maui9002]

15. Same with assassinations and other notable tragedies

JFK, RFK, and MLK as well as TWA Flight 800. Call me a skeptic, but I just can't buy that the government was directly responsible for any of these events. There's no shortage of evidence that powerful interests have taken advantage of certain of these events or that information that might be embarrassing to powerful interests has been withheld (thereby fueling suspicion of a conspiracy), but it defies reason to believe the government and/or "corporate interests" are part of a conspiracy to bring about these events. What's unfortunate is that a significant portion of the country has become so disillusioned about our government that government backed conspiracy theories are allowed to get traction.

[nebenaube]

24. correction

... defies your reasoning...

[Juche]

39. MLK

JFK, RFK, and MLK as well as TWA Flight 800. Call me a skeptic, but I just can't buy that the government was directly responsible for any of these events. There's no shortage of evidence that powerful interests have taken advantage of certain of these events or that information that might be embarrassing to powerful interests has been withheld (thereby fueling suspicion of a conspiracy), but it defies reason to believe the government and/or "corporate interests" are part of a conspiracy to bring about these events. What's unfortunate is that a significant portion of the country has become so disillusioned about our government that government backed conspiracy theories are allowed to get traction.

I haven't read up on the issue, however William Pepper, the attorney for James Earl Ray carried out a civil lawsuit in 1999 where he claimed that the US government helped kill MLK. After 70 witnesses testified the jury found the gov guilty in conspiracy after 1 hour of deliberation. So a civil trial for the attorney for James Earl Ray convinced a jury that the gov. was involved in MLK's death.

The trial is now on the website of the King Center and loretta Scott King has said that the work of Bill Pepper is a good place to find out what happened to her husband.

I don't know much about the situation other than the superficial aspects I've just posted (don't know the details), but to say 'I just can't buy that the gov was directly responsible for any of these events' is premature.

[maui9002]

42. Actually, not premature for me

I posted earlier to a post regarding the issue of MLK, and I've read Posner's book on the MLK assassination, "Killing the Dream" (as well as a number of books on the JFK assassination, including Posner's, the "downing" of TWA Flight 800, 9/11, and the folly in Iraq). Others posted replies that disagreed with my view re the MLK assassination, which is fine, but I stand by my original statement.

[Juche]

61. Fair enough

Alot of skeptics I've met really haven't looked into the issues and just dismiss these ideas out of hand. If you've looked into them and feel there is nothing to them then that is a totally different thing.

[Winterblues]

17. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING is exactly as the Government says it is

Anyone that says any different is just a Conspiracy theorist nut...If it weren't the truth they couldn't say it....

[elehhhhna]

18. Yep!

lmao

[Zynx]

26. I didn't say that. I will admit I have a certain level of contempt for most

conspiracy theorists because they claim so violently that they have "The Truth".

[JohnyCanuck]

19. I do not believe in some grand conspiracy of the Fed and some secret clan of bankers to fuck us over

Just curious, have you watched the videos Money As Debt (Watch it online here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5352106773770802849 ) and http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.12.%20MoneyMasters.htm">"The Money Masters" which looks at the history of money, banking and central banks and the continual accumulation of wealth by bankers since the Middle Ages?

Elizabeth Kucinich on Money As Debt:

Elizabeth J. Kucinich, monetary reform activist partner of
Congressman, and US Presidential aspirant, Dennis Kucinich (D-OH)

"I have worked for a long time looking into monetary reform and after 10 years, finally someone has produced a DVD entitled "Money as Debt". It is a fabulous fun yet powerful introduction to the issue of monetary reform. It's the best over view I have seen so far; the best by far. ESSENTIAL! Everyone should watch it!

The topic of DebtMoney is THE issue of our times. It forms the basis to every nation's areas of core material and spiritual concerns such as economic development, employment and environmental sustainability.

If only government officials, civil society organizations, environmental groups, unions and well meaning international development strategists trying to eradicate poverty really understood this topic... the world would be a much better place.

www.moneyasdebt.net (click on reviews)

Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.'

-- Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom (1913)

[Zynx]

29. I've specialized in money and banking in economics. I am very familiar with these topics.

Perhaps when you're closer to the system and know more about it, then it does not seem quite as frightening.

[JFN1]

48. Great info on how the federal reserve came to be

There is a lot of evidence that a cabal of bankers started the Fed...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3075917

[Fumesucker]

20. What about the Gulf of Tonkin? n/t

[maui9002]

25. Not unlike Iraq War Resolution

But doesn't support that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. Instead, it supports the idea, which Zynx doesn't dispute in his OP, that the President and military leaders will deceive the public, and Congress, to gain approval for a desired military action. In the case of the Iraq War Resolution, which was passed by an overwhelming vote of the Senate, despite serious misgivings of the public, that was a reaction to rather than a part of 9/11 (in my humble opinion).

[Zynx]

27. We have verified proof on that one, therefore I believe it.

[Fumesucker]

35. How long did it take to get verified proof? n/t

[Greyhound]

66. .

:wow:

[EOTE]

99. Wow, so maybe 30 years from now, you'll be with us CTers as well.

Of course, then we'll be fighting Gulf War V (Operation We Swear We're Not Going To Fuck Shit Up Worse This Time). And anyone who brings up false flag operations like Gulf of Tonkin and 9/11 will be sent to Guantanamo to be tortured for an indefinite period of time visit the AmericaLand Amusement Park.

You may not mind having to wait 20 to 40 years for the government to be forced to admit its evil deeds, but some of us would like to figure things out while it still makes a damn bit of difference.

[datasuspect]

23. the government doesn't lie

there aren't powerful, wealthy people who will do anything to protect and increase their power and wealth.

the police are there to protect us.

prisons are for bad people.

legislators make laws to protect us.

school educates us.

we work because we are truly free.

[Zynx]

28. I never said that. What I said was I didn't buy into these particular conspiracy theories.

I know the government lied about Iraq War intelligence and lies routinely about the numbers of Iraqi dead. However, that doesn't elevate it to a conspiracy theory.

[maui9002]

33. The government does lie

but I don't believe they were involved in a conspiracy to perpetrate 9/11, assassinate JFK, RFK, and MLK, and bring down TWA Flight 800. All politicians shade the truth and sometimes outright lie to advance their interests; that's why we have a free press and freedom of expression.

There are powerful, wealthy people who will do just about anything to protect and increase their power and wealth, but many powerful, wealthy people use their power and wealth to do much good in the world and most are not devious, unethical persons out to screw the world.

The police are there to protect us; yes, there are bad cops and there are police departments that are culturally biased toward minorities. But I'd rather work on weeding out the bad cops and overcoming the bias rather than have no cops at all.

Legislators make laws to protect us, and sometimes they make laws that take away those protections to protect other (e.g., corporate and politically connected) interests. But we all have the right to vote in this country, which means it's our right to remove legislators and replace them with persons who will abide by the public's wishes.

School educates us. I attended public schools from kindergarten through graduate school and my children all attend public schools. Despite my concerns that we need to address many issues in the schools, I believe I received and that my children are receiving a quality education from the public schools. Despite this belief, my wife and I are actively involved in teaching our children outside the classroom to augment their education.

I don't work because I'm free, but I have the right to leave my work and work somewhere else, as long as I can convince the persons who determine who is hired that I have the skills to justify my hiring.

I apologize for how this post may come across, but I'm simply responding to the view, apparently expressed in your post, that government is all lies and conspiracies, that the police aren't there to protect us, that legislators are out to protect only monied interests and the politically powerful, that schools aren't there to educate us, and that we are all worker bees toiling for the rich and powerful. To me, if you believe that, it is a type of surrender to forces over which you seem to believe you have little or no control. I'm not so naive to think all government institutions operate for the betterment of society, but I don't subscribe to the notion that there's some rich, evil cabal of politicians, generals, police chiefs, and school officials that control my life without my participation.

[datasuspect]

34. reactions to what i wrote vary according to where a person fits on a socioeconomic continuum

the more you are adaptable to the system, the more palatable or amenable you can make it to yourself. or be a better suited player.

but yes, i understand your perspective. you are a fortunate person.

[tuckessee]

30. Are you familar with how organized crime works (or worked) in NYC or Chicago?

Apply the same basic methods & system to the world and there you have it.

[Zynx]

32. Things work differently on small scales than large ones.

Rather than trying to simplify it down to an example like that, would you care to explain this network of conspirators?

[Festivito]

36. Should I be concise AND specific?

First, it's not unified, neither is the world.

People steal for different reasons, and to different degrees.

What needs to be done is to unify enough people for degree of theft.
For example: A bank heist, A mafia, Nazis, aristocracy(I'm better because God gave my family money), ...
A plan for total world domination(I'm kidding) Although, to a bored richy rich, it might be a fun exercise.

I say google the "money masters". For someone once quipped: "the love of money is the root of all evil"

Bill Clinton's America was ripe for a huge money transfer. Look at our dollar through the Euro, gold, then look at your property value. Over half of what you owned is gone and all you received was 2% a year of each year's income. Then compare those two values.

Some say it's due to the price of gas, others to the shortage of oil forcing us into wars, others to thievery, ...

I say it's due to the irresponsibility of borrowing to make ends meet, something Bill was stopping, and it made us look good and further, it made us rich.

Republicans borrowed the money on OUR CREDIT and took the dollar bills.

So now the few are cash rich, and the rest of us are not. Republican Dan Quayle's company buys Chrysler. What other deals are out there. A bank, once $200/share sells for $20/share? But, these are just examples and can be called anomalies.

The real question can be likened to the question asked of the Reagan-built team. How many deaths do you require before we should come back to you, so we don't bother you? And, the AIDS crisis continued, and did become worse -- some say.

So, how many details do YOU need?

[Juche]

37. I'm not sure what you are asking

Why do these things need to be connected? Did the Gulf of Tonkin and the attack on the USS Liberty have to be directly connected to watergate? Not necessarily.

As for your stance on Ohio, I would recommend you read something like Robert Kennedy jr's article in rolling stone, or the wikipedia (yes wikipedia) entry on ohio anomalies in 2004 to see reasons why people are upset. I'll probably get my post deleted for linking to them so you can find them. Seeing how much of Ohio can be linked back to Blackwell I don't know if that is a massive conspiracy though. Luckily Blackwell has been subpoenaed by the house judiciary to answer questions about the 2004 election.

I don't see how the dozens of answered questions about 9/11 and Blackwell in Ohio are necessarily related.

[librechik]

38. You want a unified theory? Ask Einstein. Oh yeah, even he couldn't do it

Is your middle name Straw Man?

a-9/11--you obviously prefer to just take things at face value. Do some research before coming in with your mind all made up. No, that would be too hard. You might have to take on a theory instead of a certainty.

b-2000 election: Supreme Court Committed a Crime, yes they did. 2004. Diebold widespread election fraud, especially OH.Those are facts you don't need to believe in conspiracies to comprehend (although I'm sure you will still deny them.)

c--Glass -Steagoll was repealed (along with many many other pro-BushCo tiny legislative adjustments over the last 10 years)--this was a highly successful sytematized program to free CERTAIN (i.e., JPMorgan and NOT Bear Stearns)private finance companies to rob the public banks.

Oh, and BTW, it doesn't matter what you believe. Only facts are important, and we don't have enough of those yet. So nobody would be able to give you your grand unified theory, oh thou triumphant master of the Straw Man argument. I guess you win.


:boring:

[slackmaster]

40. There is only one Conspiracy, and it is so vast and all-encompassing

That its members are totally unaware that they are part of it.

[devilgrrl]

43. You know, I really think Iraq had WMD's and buried them in Syria and abortion leads to breast cancer

What were you saying?

[Cerridwen]

44. I'm glad you asked. I've been wrestling with this for some time. (long post warning)

First, Zynx, if you think this doesn't belong here or your don't want it here, please say so and I'll delete it and move it or have it deleted. MODS, please let me know if this needs to go elsewhere (or move/delete this post only) rather than sending Zynx's thread elsewhere, please.

Second, I'm not advocating one, the other or any; just having an "out loud" discussion with myself and anyone else who wants to participate. Now, on with the show.


As one who enjoys reading history - the official and non-official versions - I'm aware of many "conspiracy theories" that have existed in and about the US. Small-pox infected blankets, General Butler's claims of The Business Plot which resulted in his "War is a Racket" and so many other unsavory things in our Great American History. I have many mythical tin-foil hats, some old and dusty due to lack of use, others bright and shiny as I investigate and cogitate. I've read about COINTELPRO and Nixon's hatred of the "dirty hippies", Watergate, Monica-gate, {fill-in-the-blank}-gate and been torpedoed by my allies when I worked in the political realm. Even so, I can't quite (yet) get my brain wrapped around some of the more horrific conspiracy "theories" traveling through the "tubes." I hope you don't mind that I add my ruminations and cogitations to your thread and use "you" to bounce off some of my ideas.

Are they conspiracies? Is there one over-arching, all inclusive conspiracy? Or is it just a convenient confluence of easily exploitable events and scenarios?


First, a few of definitions and a quote so we can start in the same chapter if not necessarily on the same page.

-------------------------

Cui Bono - to whose benefit?


Cui bono ("To whose benefit?", literally "{being} good for whom?") is a Latin adage that is used either to suggest a hidden motive or to indicate that the party responsible for a thing may not be who it appears at first to be. With respect to motive, a public works project which is purported to benefit the city may have been initiated rather to benefit a favored campaign contributor with a lucrative contract. {apropos example for this post}

-------------------------

Conspiracy - to conspire

1. to agree together, esp. secretly, to do something wrong, evil, or illegal: They conspired to kill the king.
2. to act or work together toward the same result or goal.
3. to plot (something wrong, evil, or illegal).

--------------------------

Cynical - cynically

1. like or characteristic of a cynic; distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.
2. showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions, esp. by actions that exploit the scruples of others.
3. bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic.
4. (initial capital letter) cynic (def. 5).
5. (initial capital letter) Also, Cynical. of or pertaining to the Cynics or their doctrines.
6. Medicine/Medical Now Rare. resembling the actions of a snarling dog.

{Cerridwen's note: I conflated *snort* two entries to include #5 and #6 because I think #6 is rather telling}

--------------------------

"We would worry less about what others think of us if we realized how seldom they do." Ethel Barrett {Hold this quote in your mind as you continue to read}

--------------------------

The biggest problem with the term "conspiracy theory" is that so many focus on definitions #1 & #3. Using definition #2 can help move the conversation along. Let's try using that definition for a bit and see what happens.

If you and I and 75 of our closest friends get together to sit around and chat about how to "change the world" or "fix the world" or "get out the vote", by definition #2, it's a conspiracy. We exercise our "power of the People" and maybe something will come of it. What is the goal? Who benefits? Hopefully, we do. How much influence do we have?

If a group of 75 or more "movers and shakers" get together to sit around and chat about how to "change the world" or "fix the world" or "get out the vote", by definition #2, it's a conspiracy. They exercise their "power of the People" and maybe something will come of it. What is the goal? Who benefits? How much influence do they have?

In your post #28 you said "I know the government lied about Iraq War intelligence and lies routinely about the numbers of Iraqi dead. However, that doesn't elevate it to a conspiracy theory."

Doesn't it? See "conspire" definition #2. You just stated that the US government lied about intelligence that was used to justify using US military to invade countries who did not attack us. Who "created" the intelligence used to create the lies? What was the desired outcome? Who benefits? How were the lies disseminated for public consumption? What was said at the UN? By whom? Were there 2 or more people involved in creating then disseminating those lies? Were those lies then used to influence public opinion and the cooperation of other nations' leaders? What was the goal? Who benefits?

How is that not a conspiracy?

You stated that "the government...lies routinely about the numbers of Iraqi dead." Two or more people in "our" government have access (presumably) to the accurate numbers of Iraqi dead. Where are those numbers? Why are they not disseminated to the public? Was there a conscious decision made to hide those numbers? Who benefits? Again, how is that not a conspiracy?

You appear to think the US government (a group of people led by another group of people) can cynically create lies used to launch an attack against sovereign nations throwing us into trillions of dollars of debt, sacrificing the lives and health of US military men and women, killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people, destroying the Iraqi infrastructure, destroying ancient artifacts used to study world history, destroying the ecosystem and the surrounding environment while awarding no-bid contracts to their fellow "movers and shakers", "losing" 9 billion dollars of US currency on pallets, installing US "friendly" (read corporate friendly) "leaders" in Iraqi government...to list just a few of the monstrosities of this "war" begun based on lies.

Fives years, 4000+ US military deaths, hundreds of thousands US troopers physically and/or mentally maimed, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead or maimed...BUT, "they" would not cynically plan to use US commercial airliners carrying hundreds of passengers to attack and destroy 2 or more relatively small but iconically large pieces of real estate resulting in the deaths of 3000+ people in order to justify a five-year (and counting) "war" during which time they award no-bid contracts to corporations whose profits have risen dramatically since the advent of the "war", denying our troops the tools they need to fight the "war" to save money at the cost of lives, creating an industry for mercenaries and "security" corporations reaping billions of dollars in profits...

Why is one scenario imaginable and the other "too" evil/cynical/horrific to be believed? Is it more difficult to plan the murder of 3000+ people in 3 locations than it is to plan the murder of hundreds of thousands in entire countries? Since you mentioned questions about election fraud, here's another question: how much more effort would it be to rig a vote than to rig a war?

Scale? Which scenario is the largest horror? How can you believe proof of one group of lies and accept another group as "too horrific" to be believed?

Complexity? How is manufacturing consent - in the public mind and in Congress - to invade nations, creating a link between sadam hussein and al qaeda, diverting attention away from the Saudi nationals involved in 9/11, lying to the UN and our allies, and mobilizing US military, less complex than planning a one-time attack?

One scenario may not prove another scenario, but it does, at the very least, show "they" are capable of such barbarity and cynicism. It shows they have the means, the motive, and the lack of human conscience needed to carry out a sustained "war," much less, one multi-pronged attack. What was the goal? Who benefits? T'wasn't the US or Iraqi people. Sure as hell wasn't the region referred to as "the Middle East". Again, who benefits?

From your post #26: "...I have a certain level of contempt for most conspiracy theorists because they claim so violently that they have 'The Truth'" - yes many do make that claim, or can be read to make that claim, or have been presented as making that claim, or perhaps it's just a rhetorical tool used to give strength to their argument. Here is yet another assertion to A "truth": you do not matter to the people who do.

One of the mistakes I see some "conspiracy theorists" make is that many of the theories they put forth include an underlying motive that on some level, "they" are out to get "us." "We would worry less about what others think of us if we realized how seldom they do." What makes you think "they" have any concern or qualms about how, what benefits "them" will impact "us"?

Here's an axiom from the font of US "common knowledge": "It's nothing personal; it's just business." Here's another quote: "Money trumps peace."

Do you honestly think "they" think of us at all? Do you think the "movers and shakers" are concerned with little ol' moi when they start outsourcing jobs; or do you think they're thinking about profit? Do you think they were concerned with small family farms as they bought out swaths of land and turned them into agri-business industrial farming complexes? Do you think CEOs with their "golden parachutes" and powerful connections and influence are concerned if you or I vote, eat, live? Do you think they care if you or I become ill and can't afford health care? Which do you think is more important to them; their profit or your health and well being? Don't stress about it though; "it's nothing personal, it's just business" and "money trumps..." well, damn near everything.

When the "powers that be" (PTB) at Ford Motor Company made a conscious decision to sell the Pinto in spite of its danger to its customers, do you think "they" were concerned with our safety and health? Or did they cynically and calculatingly decided based on the cost-benefit analysis or not? What was the goal? Who benefited?

When the PTB decided to run experiments on black men in the south, do you think they were concerned with the impact to the health and life of those men? What was the goal? Who benefited?

Eugenics experiments in the US that became the model for...(Godwin's law alert)...Nazi medical experiments. What was the goal? Who benefited?

Three-Mile Island. Enron. Worldcom. Exxon Valdez. Tobacco companies. US corporations receive a "slap on the wrist" for working with Nazi business interests; Ford, Singer Sewing Machine, IBM, et. al. Operation Paperclip. Thalidomide. Denial of health care; for which we already pay. De-regulation. Union busting. What is the goal? Who benefits?

From your post #11: "...managing to be one of the most consistently bungling administrations in history." Bungling?

In no particular order:

The Patriot Act.
The Bankruptcy Bill.
Habeas Corpus.
Gitmo.
Anthrax attacks.
New Orleans property being sold to the "highest," well-connected, bidder.
Abu Gharib.
Illegal wiretapping and spying on US citizens happening as you read this.
A sitting Governor jailed for...?
Supreme Court selects the US pResident.
John Kerry "swiftboated".
Corporations' continued consolidation of media outlets; tv, cable, radio, publishing, text books, magazines, newspapers.
Continued funding of ineffective and non-working technologies to the tune of billions of dollars of taxpayer - OUR - money.
Medical insurance industry bloated on the profits retained by denying benefits.
Pharmaceutical companies using taxpayer funded universities for research (OUR money) to stuff their pockets with the profit you and I will never see; creating products many may not be able to afford even IF they have insurance.
TSA. "No Fly" lists.
Real ID.
Oil - record profits.
Halliburton - record profits.
Blackwater - record profits.
Saudi Royals - ???
bush family fortune - ???

Far too many more to list in this already long post.

{Cerridwen's note: yes, some of the things I list were begun before the 2000 selection; bush's terms in residence have accelerated the pace of what is happening in this country beyond what I saw prior to 2000}


What is the goal? Who benefits?

Maybe it's not ONE over-arching conspiracy. Maybe it's not even really "evil" or "illegal" or "cynical". Maybe "it's just business." Maybe it's just that "money trumps."

Maybe the "true" conspiracy is that - "we" are not the target, or the reason, for "their" actions. As "we" focus on "them" and "their" motives, perhaps "we" give "them" too much benefit as to having any human concern...or concern for humans. Maybe, we just don't matter to them any more than the insects you killed today, yesterday, or the day before, mattered to you. "We would worry less about what others think of us if we realized how seldom they do."

Maybe it's just a profit-driven, convenient confluence of easily exploitable events and scenarios. Maybe it's as simple as, we do not matter to the people who do. Maybe a combination of both.


edit for typo

[blm]

60. Well said C. Now Zynx, BCCI matters didn't just disappear into the air. They had to be deliberately

ignored and downplayed by those who COULD have facilitated the investigations instead of continue to stonewall access to documents.

Do you NEED a list of outstanding matters posted again to realize the EXTENT of the operation and the scope of its goals?

[Cerridwen]

62. Thanks, blm, for saying so and for taking the time to read it.

As usual, I wasn't succinct. :D

[Greyhound]

65. Excellent! I am waiting with bated breath to see if Zynx will come back to address this.

My breath is bated, but I'm not holding it...

[TheWatcher]

84. I highly doubt he will.

Once someone posts something that is difficult for him to deflect or reason away with his Matrix like reasoning, he suspiciously falls silent.

He doesn't do well outside of his comfort zone.

::Cue Jack Nicholson From "A Few Good Men::

But then again, I don't think most Americans can handle it, or are ready to do so.

[Cerridwen]

89. And that's okay, too.

Hi, TheWatcher. (quick aside: does your userid have anything to do with "The Highlander" movie or tv series? Just being nosey. :D )

I didn't really expect Zynx to respond. I was posting more to get the thoughts swirling around in my head into some form of order; thinking aloud, as it were.

Hell, I haven't convinced myself yet of one theory or another. I'm just putting out there what I think to see if someone can give me some input beyond "the government would never do that" or "that's just too awful to believe" or my ever favorite assertion, "no one controls me!" Uh, huh. Tell it to your boss, the IRS, the zoning commission, the FDA, the building department, your homeowners' association, etc. Lots 'o little control groups out there but no big ones, I guess.

With regard to your statement that "most Americans can{'t} handle {the truth}," I would once have argued that they/we can. Sadly, I no longer feel that way. I think far too many of us are too fearful to step outside our values, prejudices, and belief systems. The "pain" involved in self-examination is just too intense for many. Yikes! I went armchair psychology 101! Bad habit. Too many years of working with the public. :D

[Norrin Radd]

79. Great post. Two other terms I'd personally add into the mix

for the benefit of the originator of this thread are disinformation, and limited hangout.

[Cerridwen]

98. "limited hangout"?

Thank you for the compliment. Now I'm off to google "limited hangout". Guess I'm not a very good conspiracy theorist if I don't know ALL the words. LOL

:hi:

edit to add: googled. Very interesting. Thanks.

[Larry Ogg]

82. Hi Cerridwen,

I responded to your post and it ended up down thread. See post #77
Larry

[Cerridwen]

96. Hi, Larry.

I saw it and finally replied.

Busy morning here. Just catching up on posts.

[Jackpine Radical]

105. That was a very interesting post. It actually deserves its own thread, but

of course that would condemn it to the Paranoid Dungeon.

Let me plump a bit for my point of view, which is that the Bushies are merely the current face of a long-standing, indeed transgenerational, ruling group. One can argue about when & where they arose, but I suspect that "they" have evolved with society, and go back many hundreds of years. They are a sort of group of fellow travelers, not necessarily homogeneous in their interests, and may sometimes war with each other, just as any visible group of royalty might do. Icke says some amazing things, gives some startling insights--and then he segues into his lizard talk. Maybe he believes that stuff literally. Maybe he's writing in allegory. Maybe the lizard talk is there as a sort of protective coloration, a psychotic masquerade that gives him a sort of "court jester" immunity when he reveals deep and dark things.

Anyway, thanks.

[Cerridwen]

106. "Funny" you should say that.

I thought of making it its own thread then decided to respond directly to the OP as he'd helped me to collect and direct my thoughts. Also why I started as I did since I didn't want Zynx's thread to be condemned, as you put it :D , just because of my post.

I agree with your point of view; haven't we already seen reports of researchers tracing genealogical lines from European royalty to US presidents? I mean unless the researchers were conspiracy theorists instead of genealogists? hee hee.

There was a video posted at DU about a television journalist or reporter in the UK who took DNA swabs from several individuals then had them analyzed to track their DNA "history". It was quite interesting to see the response of all these "pure" "white" people to their not-so-pure and not-so-"white" genetic origins; one woman sued the television program. The "purest" specimen was from a gentleman in the UK's government. That last, in light of the discussion here, is...perhaps of note.

I noticed you mentioned Icke upthread and the responses to "the lizard talk". Who else have I studied in history who wrote science and math in code? Oh, nevermind, he just did that because he was left handed. I have it on Wiki-authority ;)

I'll have to check out Icke's work. Thank you for the additional information and insight.

[Jackpine Radical]

107. Since you make an oblique reverence to Leonardo, I can't resist mentioning

Leonardo was of course not only left-handed (how literally sinister!) but gay.

My top-of-the list free association to his name: Medici. You really wonder what kind of things he might have come up with that we know nothing about, that got spirited away by the Rulers.



I acquired some minor-league infamy among the wingnut set with my references to the Illuminati in the context of current events, so I think I'll salt this post with a few other terms: Rosicrucians, Illuminati, Freemasons, Skopzi, Camorristi, Carbonari, Nihilists.

And as long as we're playing in this playground, are you familiar with Charles Fort? He wrote the Book of the Damned, in which he recorded all kinds of anomolous events. He kept saying, "We are cattle."

[Cerridwen]

108. I've heard of the book but not read it.

I believe it's online (brief google) so maybe I'll peruse today. Thank you.

Though, it appears he had the wrong farm animal; today we keep calling ourselves, sheep-le.

When I think of Leonardo, I think of Galileo - not sure why. The two somehow became associated in my brain. Perhaps it's part of the whole church "issue" during their (and now, our) lifetimes. While I was googling the mirror writing I remembered but couldn't remember who used it, I about sprayed my keyboard when I read this at a Wiki article about Galileo:

On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture. (emphasis added)

I guess some "theories" take longer to (dis)prove than others. LOL

[Jackpine Radical]

111. It's really old. I'm sure you could find it on Amazon or something

if you're interested, or get it out of a library. It's all about rains of frogs, etc. Sort of a catalog of unexplained phenomena gleaned from newspapers around the world. I haven't probably looked at it in 40 years or so.

I just spotted an unintentional pun in my earlier post--"oblique reverence--" and I've always held Leonardo as one of my personal heroes.

[Cerridwen]

113. :D

I missed your pun - glad you pointed it out to me. I can always use a good giggle.


"The Book of the Damned" is available for .pdf download at google books. There's some interesting information on Wiki about Fort and his writing.

I prefer print to e-books so not sure how much the downloaded version will hold my attention. I'm of a generation I guess, who prefers paper and ink to pixels on screens. I also prefer fountain pens to ballpoint or rollerball on good quality paper rather than this chemically treated smush they make these days. Yep, I'm a real anachronistic, CTer. LOL

[blm]

117. I think you should post this again over the weekend or Monday.

If you want to wait for Zynx' thread to deactivate first.

[Echo In Light]

115. Re: the last part of that - shades of Chomsky?

There was another doc film made on him just before the Iraq invasion, with some insiders offering ominous speculation on the more violent groups opposed to Chomsky, and any who comprise the American left, stating that some of the Zionist groups were the ones making death threats, and that, going higher up, if it were perceived that Chomsky was heading up the left, he and his family would likely be in peril. One suspects if shadowy hidden hands didn't tap him long ago re his involvement with investigating the Kennedy assassinations: "this far, and no further," if you follow.

Then again, I know Howard Zinn has endorsed David Ray Griffin's books, so who knows.

Anyway, for what it's worth, after reading that about Icke, it made me think of that possible aspect ...and really, I love turning people onto Icke. The Robots' Rebellion: The Story of the Spiritual Renaissance, And the Truth Shall Set You Free, and I Am Free, I Am Me, are impassioned, highly informative reads.

[Fireweed247]

45. I find it difficult to respect your opinion with comments like this

"Bush's improvement in the vote nationwide was consistent and widespread over 2000 so if there was fraud it was extremely widespread. Second, polling did point to a Bush victory despite what Zogby said"

Bush had been caught lying to start a war, failing to protect us on 9/11, and the clear majority were against the war.

All exit polls pointed to a Kerry victory and the fraud was widespread but that doesn't make it inaccurate. Diebold tabulators make it very simple to steal elections. Only the green party called for a recount, and that was fraudulent as well. Weren't you paying attention??

[Orwellian_Ghost]

47. Here's an interesting piece to consider

CONSPIRACY PHOBIA
by Dr. June Terpstra


Most people in the west have been programmed by media propagandists to react negatively when they hear the word "conspiracy." They treat anyone who investigates actual conspiracies as an oddball and call them names in an attempt to dismiss and discredit what is being said and what is being investigated at times with thorough and revealing research.

I struggle with this because on one hand history proves that people with power consistently plot to grab and maintain power and control over wealth and resources especially media resources like news and education. On the other hand, many things do happen in a complicated matrix of mishaps, mistakes and human failures that then someone or group will take advantage of. Of course it always helps to "follow the money" and analyze "who benefits" when seeking the truth about the research, planning and development that has been going on for centuries in the age old battles for power.

No one likes to admit the level at which we in the West are being manipulated to think, feel believe, act or not to act. No one wants to believe they are enslaved. It goes against our belief that we still live in a basically "free country" and that we ourselves are "free" in a world where "freedom isn’t free". Heavy Orwellian crap, right?

...

"The conspiracy phobics believe that conspiracies do not exist, or if they do exist, they are of no great significance...those who suffer from conspiracy phobia are fond of saying: " do you actually think there’s a group of men sitting around a room plotting things/" for some strange reason this image of a group of men ( usually with no women present) actually sitting around a room is considered utterly unbelievable...of course they sit around in rooms. Where else would they meet? They are constantly conferring and they have plenty of rooms at the CIA, the white house, the state department, the FBI, the pentagon, the NSA, and where ever else. And yes, they consciously plot to make certain things happen, to overthrow governments, to set up systems violent repression against reformist or revolutionary governments and movements, to ship arms to clandestine armies. They don’t call it plotting, they call it "planning." they have a whole vocabulary to designate their state-sponsored conspiracies: "secret operations", "covert actions", ’deep operations", " off the shelf-operations", black book operations...at the broader policy level, no one confabulates and plans more than the political and corporate elites of America.

...

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=5168

Conspiracy:
- 1: the act of conspiring together2 a: an agreement among conspirators b: a group of conspirators


conspiracy theory:
- a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators


Conspirator:
- one who conspires : plotter

Easy enough.

[Echo In Light]

57. Thanks for posting!

[readmoreoften]

50. Are you seriously asking people to present what is tantamount to book length arguments?

Point out why the official story on 9-11 is correct, and then you might start an authentic discussion--if that's what you're after.

[TheWatcher]

87. He can't.

But like so many he clings to it as if it were an indisputable fact, like the world being round or the sky being blue.

I think the problem with many is that they just can't bring themselves to believe their government would do something or be involved in something so vile, so heinous. The cannot allow themselves to even consider it.

As David Lynch said on the subject in a Norwegian Interview "It's too big for most to even think about."

[Junkdrawer]

51. 9/11 and Iraq are one thing....the Wall Street meltdown is another...

The only way they are connected is that a dependence on Empire is notoriously precarious and usually only benefit a small, wealthy class.

Look: It's pretty well established that these ghouls came into office with Iraq in the crosshairs.

Without 9/11, that would NEVER have happened. There are a million unanswered questions about 9/11. This administration ACTIVELY evades answering any of them.

[khaos]

52. Explain it to yourself..

start by reading Caroll Quigley; Tragedy And Hope

[libodem]

53. Wait

wait, while I grab my tinfoil hat...No but really I've begun to think the more that Neocons' decry an issue as a conspiracy theory the more likely it that there has been one. I think there has been at the very least a 30 year master plan to orchestrate getting Republicans into the government, they profess to hate, and creating an agenda to benefit the uber-wealthy.

[screembloodymurder]

54. Looked like demolition of #7 to me.

But then I've only been taking buildings down for 35 years.

[Echo In Light]

56. We're not to believe our lying eyes

[Sheets of Easter]

55. I have my own little rule about cospiracies.

If you believe in three or more different conspiracy theories at any one time, you're full of shit about all of them.

[Cerridwen]

64. .

1.

Selective human breeding and social engineering in the U.S.

With the governor's statement Thursday, Virginia becomes the only of the 30 states that conducted eugenics sterilizations to apologize. There are believed to be more than 60,000 eugenics victims nationwide. (emphasis added)

2.

The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,” their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all. (emphasis added)

3.

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident

Johnson-McNamara Tapes Show Readiness to Escalate, Even on Suspect Intel;
Top Aides Knew of Mistaken Signals, but Welcomed Justification for Vote (emphasis added)

[Sheets of Easter]

76. Thanks, but I don't think any of those are conspiracies.

In fact, the last two are well-known and readily acknowledged.

I'm talking specifically about people who don't believe one conspiracy, but somehow believe ALL of them. I knew a guy like that in college.

[Cerridwen]

83. Once something is proven to have happened it's no longer a conspiracy?

M'kay, I don't follow that logic at all.

It may no longer be a theory, but how does proof or an acknowledgment that it actually happened make it "not a conspiracy"?

Using an extreme example; if someone has allegedly murdered another, and is then proven to have committed that murder, is it no longer murder? I'm pretty sure it's still murder; though it is no longer "alleged".

Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

I guess I've been "lucky" as I don't know anyone who believes ALL conspiracy theories (at least that they're willing to admit). I do know several people, however, who love to sit and debate the validity of conspiracy-this and conspiracy-that as an attempt to evaluate the validity of information that's been discovered or presented. It might not be your particular interest but, hey, some people debate the best restaurant in town, others debate the validity of "official" reports, still others I know debate string-theory or the latest feminist theories. Each to their own. Hardly a reason to tell any of them "they're full of shit".

[Sheets of Easter]

90. never mind. I'm not up for a semantics discussion.

[Cerridwen]

92. Okay.

I didn't see your reply before the edit so I'm not sure if you said anything mean or nasty so I'll just err on the side of politeness and say, nice ta meetcha.

There's some cool stuff on DU and some that you're gonna hate. The same can be said about the posters, too. :D

Some free advice (worth probably that much), avoid GD-Primaries until after the primaries (unless you want to really do some name calling and candidate bashing), you can hide entire threads that bug the crap out of you and no one will ever know, and you can ignore individuals who bug the crap out of you and no one will ever ignore. The Lounge can get crazy, but so can the rest of the forums. We're quite a mix here and you can make of it what you want. If you're an "old timer" on the 'net, this is not news to you; if you're "new" to the 'net, consider this a public service announcement. :D

See ya 'round.

:hi:

[Sheets of Easter]

93. No, I didn't say anything mean.

Just that those are conspiracies, yes, but not "theories."

[Cerridwen]

95. Thank you - for not saying anything mean, and for letting me know.

Since you've already said you didn't want a debate on semantics, I'll leave it at that and say, have a good time and a nice day. And thanks again for not being mean.

:D

[EOTE]

100. Those all started out as theories.

So I guess anyone who believed them while they were still theories was a blathering idiot. Funny how that works.

[Sheets of Easter]

104. OK, then, I'll keep quiet until this lizard man thing pans out.

[EOTE]

102. It's not semantics, it's definitions.

All three of those are definitely conspiracies. And if you're going to say, "Well, they're not theories though, because they've been proven.", then you're shooting your own argument in the foot. It's like you saying "Those damn conspiracy theorists are so damn wacky, except for all those times when they've been proven right".

[apocalypsehow]

58. Not a fan of conspiracy theory myself, but I have a good friend who eats that stuff up with a spoon.

He constantly sends me links about vast, shadowy conspiracies that are always on the verge of overwhelming the world. One of them below is an online movie called "Zeitgeist" the purports to do just what you asked in your OP: tie all the conspiracy threads together.

Although I buy very little of it, it is an interesting look into the conspiratorial mindset. You ought to check it out.

***Full disclosure***: I only watched up to the part about the 9/11 business, so I don't know what comes after that.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm

[Echo In Light]

59. I suspect the notion of big conspiracies leaves people feeling helpless. Hence, denial = well being

As in, people tend toward perceiving themselves as rugged, independent thinkers, and so hesitantly approach the idea of influential overarching/undermining nefarious systems and schemes which remove the illusion of independence ...and naturally people don't like the position that, if true, puts them in. The belief system collapses...not just their own, but that of the collective that they feel attached to, share in, reap its rewards, etc.

Thanks for this link ... I've heard of this one.

[Echo In Light]

71. Interestingly, Apocalypsehow, I posted that film in PV forum and it was deleted overnight

I sourced the intro from Youtube, along with the link you provided. Gone without a trace, or pm explanation ... and even though it included info on 9/11, it certainly wasn't just about that. I would've expected it to be dungeoned, naturally, a given. However...

[Cerridwen]

86. Fairly common reaction.

Hi, Echo In Light.

That video has been deleted many times. I suspect it's because it's critical of religion and it combines 9/11 theories, to boot. A pretty deadly combination within "normative" systems.

BTW, this is not a swipe at the Mods here, nor the admins, nor the owners of the site.

Some things should "just not" be discussed in "polite" company. Religion and what happened on 9/11; outside the socially agreed upon story; is just not "polite."

And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Being polite, that is, having manners, has much to do with making people feel comfortable and welcome. There is nothing comfortable about questioning peoples' values and beliefs. It is, in fact, extremely uncomfortable to the person or persons feeling questioned. Therefore, impolite.

It's why so many of us remain quiet within our social circles even when we have something to say. We're afraid of being impolite, of making others uncomfortable. At other times, it just ain't worth the family arguments. :D

[QueenOfCalifornia]

63. Holy Crap!

Here it is in a nutshell.

They, (THEM!!!!) are all out to get us. They use virus's with no known origin... (That's why the reptile people are safe - they can't GET THE VIRUS'S!) They all belong to THE FREE MASONS who took over the world in the 1700's but forgot to tell most of US! That's where the secret quatrains of Nostradamus come in... It's all in the CODE... which of course only BILL GATES knows... He was going to share the CODE with Steve Jobs but Jobs is a DEMOCRAT and that is a real sticky wicket! And so, the Illuminati had to KILL JFK and MLK and they are the ones who hired Charles Manson to start the race riots. I know, it's all a bit confusing but remember it like this... Tom Cruise is the new Jesus and there is NOTHING YOU OR I CAN EVER DO ABOUT IT!!!!!

[slowry]

67. Who needs conspiracies, when your government hates you, and loves 9/11, involvement or not -- NT

[Greyhound]

68. This is exactly why the neglect and elimination of critical thinking in our curriculum

is one of the greatest injustices perpetrated against this nation.

BTW, it is a required series of classes at the top prep schools around the world.

[Bushwick Bill]

69. Start here.

http://www.oilempire.us/

[Renwiick]

70. Empathy is the key to understanding conspiracy.

[notadmblnd]

72. My question is; do people really understand what constitutes a conspiracy?

According to Anthony C. Sutton, author of the book "America's Secret Establishment," proof of conspiracy requires specific types of evidence

a) there must be secret meetings of the participants and efforts made to conceal joint actions.

b) those meetings must jointly agree to take a course of action

c) and this action must be illegal


Conspiracy is a word that people like to demonize. When in fact conspiracies happen all the time. For example, we may never know if the VP conspired with the heads of Energy corporations and eventually brought about recent historical events because what happened at those meeting remains a secret. However, if it is ever found out if and what the plan of action was and if that action was/is illegal, then that constitutes a conspiracy. Currently, the issue remains a theory, hence it is a conspiracy theory. It remains to be proven.

Sutton goes on to say in his book; pg 2-3

"Firstly, in science the simplest explanation to a problem is always the most acceptable solution. By contrast, in establishment history, a simple answer is usually criticized as "simplistic." what the critic implies is "The poor writer hasn't used all the facts," In other words, it's a cheap "put down" without the necessity of providing an alternate answer or additional facts.

Secondly, again in science, an answer that fist the most cases, i.e., the most general answer, is also the most acceptable answer. For example, you have 12 events to explain and a theory that fits 11 of these events. That theory is more acceptable than a theory that fits only 4 or 5 of the events."

My grandfather had a saying, "believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see." I guess I was taught to question authority, especially when facts don't add up. It doesn't make me or anyone else a conspiracy nut to hypothesize about certain individuals or groups in government conspiring to commit illegal acts, whatever they might be. Especially if the facts are kept hidden by the authorities.

[Echo In Light]

75. The often hostile, vehement charges leveled against the idea of 'conspiracy' speak volumes on the...

...the collective un-reality. Naturally the oft taken framing of the charge rests with deeming those who question authority/power, its aims and motivations, as "crazy." As you indicated in your post, I too suspect much of this great divide has much to do with anti-authoritarian views within prevailing social systems that serve to keep people in servitude to authority figures of all shades {unless they don't happen to agree with one's preference, then they're a "hack," of course ;) }.

[Perry Logan]

74. You mean, America really reelected The Worst President Ever™...by a big margin?

I think the evidence shows: Republicans would never cheat.

[Larry Ogg]

77. Hi Zynx and Cerridwen too, Here’s a little bit of how I look at things.

Depending on the influential power of the group which commits a crime determines whether or not it is a conspiracy theory or conspiracy evidence.

If your extremely wealthy and have political power and influence - you can make actual physical evidence seem to be theoretical, this is accomplished much easier when that power gives you the ability to make that evidence disappear before a real investigation can be done…

How do unscrupulous authoritative figures make you believe them and not your own eyes? They know how the mind works much better than most, and they use real science and psychology to reverse the reality in your mind and block out the truth, and it works very well…

Ponerology term: reversive blockade
Emphatically insisting upon something which is the opposite of the truth blocks the average person’s mind from perceiving the truth. In accordance with the dictates of healthy common sense, he starts searching for meaning in the “golden mean” between the truth and its opposite, winding up with some satisfactory counterfeit. Lobaczewski

"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James.

The great mass of people . . . will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one. What luck for rulers that men do not think. Adolf Hitler

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the one’s you want to concentrate on. Gorge W. Bush

Larry

[Echo In Light]

78. Hi Larry. Good post

Many conspiracies are little more than social structures/belief systems created by the rich to guarantee their plunder. An efficient deterrent to acknowledging this lie in the numerous cultural inducements the non-wealthy are given as glimmering hints and promises of joining the ranks of the upper echelon, reaping their toys, reindeer games and status.

This is usually where some of the most vitriolic denials and justifications start being hurled...i.e. "Well what's wrong with that?!" "I have to take care of my family, don't I?!" "What's wrong with wanting to be $uccessful?!" etc etc. 'Going along' becomes a primary vehicle for the sickness of power.

A culture in mass denial may cloak its greed and preferred superficiality within legit sounding rationales ... otherwise people know the reasons for their choices will sink like a stone boat. Sick people sometimes don't want to be healed {again, how you point to authority figures applying psychologic methods to ensure their aims}, especially when the whole of their life has been impacted and shaped by poisonous ideals masquerading as the opposite of what they can potentially embody, or, sadly, have become.

[Larry Ogg]

80. Hi Echo, I was trying to explain some facts to someone once,

And he didn’t doubt what I was saying, but he told me that maybe we were safer by being kept in the dark…

And I’m like :wtf: the only ones that are safe - are the ones that control the light switch.

It just goes to show you, maybe the best censors in the world are the every day typical normal person ready and willing to be kept in the dark.
Larry

[Cerridwen]

94. Hi, Larry. I was wondering if you'd see this thread.

:hi:

I'm glad to see you came by with some additional insight.

When I read "they use real science and psychology to reverse the reality in your mind..." I was wondering if you've read or read about Edward Bernays and his influence in the world of "public relations." A lot is made of his being Freud's nephew; I'm not sure how that ties in, quite frankly. I would presume anyone could have taken Freud's theories and done with them what Bernays is purported to have done with them. Still, some interesting reading.

The "Rosie the Riviter" campaign is another. I've not yet been able to decide if they knew what would happen if women got a taste of the "independence" they could have earning their own paychecks or maybe they just figured they could open a door then slam it as they saw fit.

Ah, yes, more theories about conspiracies. LOL

[Larry Ogg]

116. Hi Cerridwen, sorry I took so long to get back with you.

I believe it was the History channel that had a pretty good episode on Edward Bernays
I think the show was about the history of public relation, and I do recall them saying he was considered as the "father of public relations”. One recollection is, (but don’t quote me on this) that he was the one that first glamorized women smoking in a time when that was strictly taboo, it was ostensibly all about liberating them, but some will of course point out that that led too huge gargantuan profits for the tobacco companies. But then, critical thinkers like yourself and I would immediately recognize that huge gargantuan profits had nothing to do with the benevolent tobacco companies wanting to double cigarette sales by liberating women. But I think It could very well be said it was his ideas that began the transformation of American society from the conservative agrarian to the wasteful consumer who needs more stuff than they can every use, because that’s supposed to make us feel good. Now a really good conspiracy theorist might call Edward Bernays “the father of contemporary narcissistic hedonism”.

Anyhow when I saw that show on the history channel I got a confirming bad feeling, that the beginnings of psychology was met by those who wished to use - what was being learned - for something nefarious and for personal gain. It’s really not hard to discover what influences have tainted, steered and concealed the discoveries of psychological research. Keep in mind knowledge of this subject is power, and what you don’t know about how your mind works, can and will be used against you and that includes controlling you.

So how is that for a conspiracy theory...? What, you want more? Ok, I can do that…

I can’t recall reading anything on Bernays, I just recognize him from that show, so I will be sure to give that article you linked to a good going over.

And, I don’t know anything about The "Rosie the Riviter" campaign and I will check that link out later to. But for know I will give you a link that will address ” I've not yet been able to decide if they knew what would happen if women got a taste of the "independence" they could have been earning their own paychecks or maybe they just figured they could open a door then slam it as they saw fit.

But this I do know about... Follow the links, and enjoy the ride. You might want to book mark this also...

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/text/conspiracy-1.htm "> Real Conspiracies -- Past and Present
by Berit Kjos - September 4, 2006
* * *
President Woodrow Wilson: "Some of the biggest men in the U. S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."<1>

President Franklin Roosevelt: "The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson... "<2>
* * *
Real conspiracies -- in contrast to mere theories -- have spawned fear, murder, lies, and revolution throughout history. Driven by greed, ambition, or utopian visions, they reflected the darkness of human nature. No nation or empire has been immune to such intrigue; betrayal, murder, and "useful wars" stain the records of ancient Israel and Judah as well as the history of mighty empires like Assyria, Babylon, Persia, China, Greece, and Rome.<3> The nations of Renaissance Europe -- always competing for dominion and commercial markets -- were torn by the same human impulses.
<snip>

Are we having fun yet. :toast:
Larry

[seemslikeadream]

81. It's a very very big world Pay Close Attention!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0tVjmHhnCo

[didact]

85. Gawd how I love conspiracy theories....I'll entertain anything and everything

big fun!

[Wizard777]

91. Unless 1 person flew all 4 planes. 9/11 was indeed a conspiracy.

It involved more than 1 person that is all conspiracy means. Our law books are full of conspiracies We The People can commit against the government. Why don't skeptics show up at these trials to say, the crazy prosecutor has a conspiracy theory. Wacko! Wacko! Someone get the nutty prosecutor a straight jacket. So now that we have established that 9/11 was a conspiracy and that conspiracies are real. The next question is, why is no one willing to find out if this conspiracy extended to any people in our government?

[BootinUp]

103. Noam Chomsky on 911

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGd0t8v-d4
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM

[progressoid]

110. Masonic Jews in the CIA. That's all you need to know.

[DireStrike]

114. There's no "unified world conspiracy"

But there are a power elite and their hand always shows up in big events, because whether they cause them or not, they are gonna try to come out on top.

9/11 - could have been anything from insiders trading on dirty knowledge, to criminal complicity, what with the bizarre stock trading going on. I love how the money trail ends at "institutional investors who are above suspicion." Hah!

2004 election - Remember TruthIsAll? Yeah. Every day that guy posted new analyses of unbelievable election stats. Never mind all the obvious voter intimidation and stuff like 2 voting machines in heavily populated urban D districts, people waiting in line until after the polls were closed, and the very fact that diebold machines and others definitely CAN be hacked, on a large scale - so why wouldn't they?

Wall street - the rich and powerful use their own money to get richer, at the expense of the not-so-rich. I guess it's not really a conspiracy theory. The economy is in the shitter, and not just because of the massive bank crises. I don't see any need for a conspiracy to explain anything significant here.

[mdmc]

118. The world has some powerful people in it

and they sometime use their resources in their best interest, sometimes at the expense of everyone else.
life is conspiracy.